So the Mine Exocortex Mechanic suffers from a worse version of the Runesmith issue from the Impossible Playtest. I can't deploy a mine then detonate it since it is a 10ft burst it will also hit me. What is the point of using the 1 Action version of Deploy Mine then? You need to spend 2 Actions MINIMUM to either place it 15ft or greater (up to 30ft) away from you or to Modify it with smart mine or just spend 1 action to move...I guess, So am I reading this right?
With the level 3 Ability mobile Exocortex which gains +10 Movement ever 5 levels past level 3, so 40ft at level 8, 50ft at level 13 and 60ft at level 18. Why would you use 1 action Deploy a mine when it is more tactical to just have it move with Mobile Exocortex at level 8 and beyond?
From what I see I can only imagine a small portion of the Mine Exocortex feats are actually useful? Let me see if I can come up with some uses with some of them. Let me also include Modify to this list.
Modifications
Big Boom - 1 Action to add 5ft to my Mines this...Again why the action cost really just make Modify a free action, that be really cool because I already need to spend 2 Actions not dying if I lay it adjacent to me by either using Smart Mine or Moving...
Bunker Buster - Fine I guess but ignoring 5 Hardness for 1 Action again...Too many Actions.
Inacapacitant - Good I like this but again 1 Action seems way to much to do this.
Long Range Propulsors - Does Nothing for Mines. Nothing more to say here honestly.
Smart Mine - PROBABLY THE ONE YOU WILL USE ALL THE TIME IF YOU ARE IN MELEE or you know 1 Action Deploy then 1 Action Move? You only use this if you are high enough to remove both yourself and an ally. Also why is it at level 5 you can exclude 2 targets and not just 1 more target every 5 levels? Also if you take this as RAW if you Modify one mien you modify them all with the same Modify?
Targeting Mine - 1 Action to add +4-7 Damage, this isn't great honestly. Smart Mine just feels so much better as 1 Action Modify to use.
Energy Versatility - 1 Action to switch it from Fire to another Energy Type, I like it but again if you fight something that is fireproof just use piercing as 1 Action is still super tight to add to an already expensive ability
Physical Versatility - Again as above but just use Fire!
Feats
Critical Explosion - Adds Int Mod to damage of Mines - Always useful!
Instant Deployment - Unless I can use the 2 Action version, I need to use 1 Action to Modify my Mine with Smart Mine before I can Detonate it or Move, kinda feels like it is defeating it's own purpose. Unless I am level 3 and have Mobile Exocortex which just seems really good.
Mobile Deployment - Stride twice and Deploy a Mine - Useful because 50 ft is more range then 30ft since you Stride twice but can I use the 2 Action version of Deploy Mine, it's very unclear. However once you hit level 13 it becomes as useful as Mobile Exocortex unless you REALLY need to move and at level 18 is worse then 1 Action Deploy + 1 Action Mobile Exocortex.
Concentrated Explosion - Unless there is more then one enemy in a 10ft burst this feels useful but again because it reduced burst from 10ft to 5ft you're still in the radius so you should use 1 Action modify - Smart Mine...This is weirdly feeling samey. I don't see why modify takes 1 Action...But Reactions might just fix this I swear. Wait you have the Modify of Targeting Mine which adds +4 Damage from Int Mod which is the same according to the math as +2 Dice Size increases on Weapons. This becomes actively less powerful once you have +6 Int since even a +4 is higher then the Average of 3 on a D6...whoopsie, I forgot how to math for a second there folks! IF ONLY this made a Mine a 5ft Square Burst would this actually be stronger then Smart Mine in my opinion!
Double Detonate - Amazing but this requires 2 entire turns if I don't want to blow up. Since I need to put down 2 mines and if they are adjacent to me I need 4 Actions, 2 Actions to Deploy 2 mines and 2 Actions to double Modify them for Smart mine, so 5 Actions for 1 Turn of not doing damage, could be useful...If the enemy has high DR...?
Gravitic Mines - Push or Pull is really neat but with only 1 Modify ability you need to use 3 Actions to be able to use this before you can even Detonate the Mine seems... 4 Actions to even be able to use this seems silly to me and way to many actions.
Double Deployment - How...How do I place 2 mines within 30ft of each other then Deploy Mine is Adjacent to me!? Again this is very not optimal as I need to modify one with smart mine or move away before, I suppose I could Deploy 2 Mines, Stride then use Double Detonate, Which seems goo di the game wasn't built on Ranged Enemies being the meta. Why can't this also change the Reaction part of Detonate Mine?
Proximity Alter Mine - AMAZING But like if I place a mine and try to leave the area without applying Smart Mine again 2 Actions Minimal, I blow up but so does my enemy! Wow, I didn't expect so much of this class to deal so much self-damage whenever I am trying to use any of my Exocortex abilities without taking an extra 1 Action. Super useful for Healing Mine literal one feat choice later. This feat is literally incompatible with Instant Deployment, Mobile Deployment & Double Deployment since if you try to move away it blows up since you are a creature as well. This makes so if you want this feat you have to give up all the other Mine Exocortex Feats which let you Deploy Mines in special ways.
HOW...DO..I..USE...THIS...FEAT...WITHOUT...2...ACTIONS!?
Healing Mine - Yay for 1 Action I can ignore all this self damage and even heal everyone including my enemies! Not a problem but feels weird that I can chose to make a healing Mine and there so far at level 12 not a simple feat that makes it so when you Deploy Mine you can use the 2 Actions version as a 1 Action instead by default, feels like a missed chance.
Shockwave Pulse - 1 Action to add Prone to the enemy, I actually do not mind spending 1 Action to do this however I haver have a p[roblem when trying to do this, I guess that is why Detonate Mie is a Reaction, it helps solve majority of the action issue.
Terraforming Mine - Upgrades your Mines from Gravitic Mines to something more deadly...I am not sure if this is good enough but I like the Black Hole though.
... Well this was not what I expected. In the end it feels like you are wanting to use your Reaction for nearly everything when ti comes ot Detonate Mine. It just feels o much better to do so.
I think that the mines exocortex may be the most overpowered of the exocortexes, just for the shear amount of damage a well setup minefield can deliver.
Note that mines are not meant to be ranged weapons that do 1d6 + half your level in d6 damage in a 10' burst. It is supposed to require some thought to set them up, but when you do get them set up, they are enormously powerful.
For example, if you find a choke point, or setup a lure, a 10th level mechanic could deploy 7 proximity alert mines in or around a single square. when a creature enters that area, they would take 42d6 + bonuses damage. If the mechanic also had the Critical Explosion class feat, the bonus damage would be +28, for an expected 175 points of damage.
You should, in general, always deploy proximity alert mines with 2 actions to keep yourself safe. But there is nothing wrong with that, because mines are not supposed to be ranged weapons. They are more like traps. If you want a ranged weapon, you should take a turret as your exocortex.
Since mechanics are also good with weapons, you don't need to rely only on mines. You can also have a backup machine gun or grenade launcher.
Having the ability start each combat with 6-9 "Fireball" equivalent damage AOEs is pretty strong.
Damage: Equivalent, but you can add Int for a feat, and Int again for an extra action. Advantage: mines.
DC: Advantage Fireball at many levels, especially if the Mechanic doesn't max Intelligence in favor of pushing Dex.
AOE size/shape: 20' vs 10', with option to spend an action for friendly fire. Advantage: Fireball.
Action economy: 3 actions to deploy/explode safely whether at range or in melee while surrounded. Advantage: Fireball. Exception: When you can lay them in advance to stack reactions/Proximity Mine/single action detonations in one turn, then big advantage Mines. But not common.
Range: Big advantage fireball.
Damage type/effects: Mines have ability to avoid fire resistance/immunity, and can add on movement/knockdown effects. Advantage mines, especially if you pick up the feat for force damage.
I think they're fine, they need the action cost to not be overpowered. Their range restrictions are going to be the bigger problem in many outdoor or big room/hangar combats. They'll really shine in rare set up and make people chase you into a kill zone situations and you're pulling off the equivalent of numerous "quickened Fireballs".
Range vs something like a fireball kinda depends. You can set them up 30 feet away and more as you go up in level but I think you can still command detonate them from much further away so if you have any idea a fight is coming you could start with some very long range stand off fights. Also you can get a mod that lets one or eventually more targets not be effected in the blast radius so you can do stuff like drop them at your own feet and if something charges at you blow it up and be unscathed not something you can do often with a fireball short of fire immunity.
The fact you can command detonate them on a reaction is super handy too. Could blow one up on your turn then if they try to close distance with you hit them with a second one.
Main downside is the setup and juggling things around but honestly they seem like they have the best setup 'trapper' kit I have really seen where offensive deployment is very doable.
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as far as deployment goes, I'm not a fan of how it's set up now. Also, Kaid, you're right, detonation is 100ft.
My thought is this: 1action deploy within 30ft. 2 action deploy within 30ft, but other creatures must pass a perception check to know where it is.
Another thought, and feel free to tell me if either of these ideas is broken, change them from items to hazards.
It's simple, just have the entire party max stealth, get means of doing stealth without cover/concealment (the mechanic can do this with a 4th level class feat), and the mechanic just lays mines as fast as he can the first couple of turns when they trigger encounters and hopefully aren't spotted right away.
As a serious option once you hit level 6, if you're within 10' of 2+ enemies you can use all three actions to Double Deploy, use Safe Mine mod, then Double Detonate to get off two blasts in one round.
At 10th level with Proximity Mine you can Double Deploy twice to lay down four mines, add an action for Safe Mine, then step or stride to detonate all four at once.
All of this ignores the potential ranged use of Double Deploy and assumes you're just setting two down in squares adjacent to you. It also depends on the current unique status of Safe Mine as the only mod that applies universally to all mines rather than a single thing.
Adding in Gravitic Mines to make them avoid a crit fail on four separate save attempts, cumulative damage aside, is extra vicious.
If you use an Action to Modify a Mine does it modify all of them?
Also I was hoping for feats that increased the number of mines you have available, and how many you recover in ten minutes. Kind of like the Alchemist. But this is still potentially my new favorite Starfinder 2e class.
If you use an Action to Modify a Mine does it modify all of them?
Not normally, but Safe Mine says if you apply it all of your mines don’t damage the designated individual(s) on detonation. It’s unique among mods in this way.
I probably missed that the first. Pity we can't use one action to add Int mod to damage to all the mines before setting them off.
Hmm would Enduring Mods effect all your mines? Things would get better at level 19 when you can free action modify, but presumably you still wouldn't be able to mod all your mines at that point.
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Mine mechanic might have the largest gap between peak performance and average performance.
I think in most AP style fights where the PCs are the ones walking towards the bad guys, Mines are kinda bad.
In the infrequent scenario where the bad guys are walking towards the PCs and the PCs have time and awareness to set up, Mines are bonkers strong.
I don't think a gap that large is good for a class. Having your subclass be poor for 90% of fights and busted in the other 10 is going to feel bad for most players.
Mobile Deployment plus Double Deployment is going to let you stride twice towards enemies, drop a mine en route, then drop two mines adjacent to you (and within 10' of enemies) at the end of your turn. Being quickened to then be able to Stride away would be extremely strong.
Proximity mines/Double Detonation is going to shred either between turn 1 and 2 or on turn 2. Once you're in contact with enemies at short range double deployment x2 plus safe mine, then proximity mines means chunky salsa.
There is a world where you don't have the right feats, setup, or whatever to do this without also eating your proximity mines, but that just turns into yakity sax and burns their actions while they run away from your mines.
Or, if enemies are adjacent to you at the start of your turn, drop two then one before striding twice away.
I don't necessarily like that because with your reaction you can only detonate one if they move away and then you've got two orphaned mines. I prefer drop two, safe mine mod, detonate.
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Sure, but then there is incentive for the enemy to move, some battlefield control via incentive. Also, where you place them could be strategic if you've got gravitic mines or dampener. You can also place the one somewhere along the path to you. And, if you've got unused mines at the end of combat you can just gather them.
Wait till level 10 because my DM pointed out no where does it say you the 1 action version of Deploy Mine when you use Double Deployment or instant deploy and many feats note what action you use if the acton has multiple action costs, so technically with Proximity Mine feat you can launch 3 Mines within 30 ft and watch them all blow up if the Enemy tries to move...But that's 3 of your 7 mines in a single turn, you might be better off Double Deployment with Instant Deployment and taking a shot.
However if you want to read it super literal you can have 4 Mines deployed in a single turn at up to 30ft by Instant Deploy, Double Deploy then Mobile Deploy or vice-versa depending on how you understand actions with other actions and how many actions you can do because if all actions compressing feats are Adjacent only 1 Action Deploy Mine then they are incredible dangerous and weak as I pointed out.
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Yeah. I don't know if we've ever had an activity with a variable number of actions that was, itself, a subordinate action in other feat-given activities.
Would love clarification regarding if you can use the 2-action range version of Deploy Mine when Deploy is a subordinate action in something like Mobile Deployment or Double Deployment.
Wait till level 10 because my DM pointed out no where does it say you the 1 action version of Deploy Mine when you use Double Deployment or instant deploy and many feats note what action you use if the acton has multiple action costs, so technically with Proximity Mine feat you can launch 3 Mines within 30 ft and watch them all blow up if the Enemy tries to move...But that's 3 of your 7 mines in a single turn, you might be better off Double Deployment with Instant Deployment and taking a shot.
However if you want to read it super literal you can have 4 Mines deployed in a single turn at up to 30ft by Instant Deploy, Double Deploy then Mobile Deploy or vice-versa depending on how you understand actions with other actions and how many actions you can do because if all actions compressing feats are Adjacent only 1 Action Deploy Mine then they are incredible dangerous and weak as I pointed out.
See right there is part of what worries me about not having feats to gain more Mines, or feats to gain more than 2 every 10 minutes.
Yeah it is a potential big alpha strike in the right circumstances, but then you are basically done until you have half an hour or so free.
On a second read through, you though 4 Mines in a single turn was bad? At level 10 when you get PRoximity Area Mines you can use Double Deployment 3 times and start with Instant mine allowing you to throw all 7 of your mines in a single turn because ocne again it does not state you can't/don't use the 2 Action version and with your DC rivaling Casters you have a DC 29 Basic Reflex Save for 10d6=5 times 7, so 70d6+45. So even if your enemy succeeds all of your saves that's on average 20 damage times 7 which at level 10 is 140 damage in a 10 ft burst. However this is just the same as a bomber Alchemist needing to refill their VV. Bombs are much weaker then Mines.
On a second read through, you though 4 Mines in a single turn was bad? At level 10 when you get PRoximity Area Mines you can use Double Deployment 3 times and start with Instant mine allowing you to throw all 7 of your mines in a single turn because ocne again it does not state you can't/don't use the 2 Action version and with your DC rivaling Casters you have a DC 29 Basic Reflex Save for 10d6=5 times 7, so 70d6+45. So even if your enemy succeeds all of your saves that's on average 20 damage times 7 which at level 10 is 140 damage in a 10 ft burst. However this is just the same as a bomber Alchemist needing to refill their VV. Bombs are much weaker then Mines.
Yup it seems like once everything comes online you could setup a hell of an alpha strike which for a class who sets up mine fields seems correct. Once your mines are expended you still have a pretty strong martial chassis and can mod your weapons to keep up good damage on whatever survived the minesplosion.
More I read this more I feel Paizo didn't really make Mines or Turret great and only Drone is great. Mines have limited range of 30ft and the Turret has a Break Threshol do half of it's max Hit points which is 6 + 2 + Your INT Mod per level, so at level 1 it's a BT of 6, despite having hardness, I don't think that really matters if at level 10 it has... 76 Hit points, Hardness 10 with a Break Threshold of 38...It's a glorified mobile cover.
If that was the case then that'd flip my thought in the Turret thread entirely, which if you have not read the thread I'd go read it, it's interesting.
But 1d6 with a max of 4d6 is not high damage however with Double Deployment and Instant Deployment until the level you get +6/+7 Int mod which is not till level 20 with your Apex item unless you use gradual attribute boost. So really it's 4d6 at level 18 vs 18d6 with Reflex for half...So...
Mine mechanic might have the largest gap between peak performance and average performance.
I think in most AP style fights where the PCs are the ones walking towards the bad guys, Mines are kinda bad.In the infrequent scenario where the bad guys are walking towards the PCs and the PCs have time and awareness to set up, Mines are bonkers strong.
I don't think a gap that large is good for a class. Having your subclass be poor for 90% of fights and busted in the other 10 is going to feel bad for most players.
For a lot of trapper type classes that would be true. Mine mechanics at least in the play test seem like they can do some huge spike damage if they can get people coming at them but if not are more than capable of offensively using mines too at reasonable range. The mechanic is also a full martial with access to martial weapons. The mines are part of the kit but they are likely also packing some pretty good weaponry and the ability to mod any gun they are using to get even more oompf out of it.