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They can channel spare magical energy to enhance their gear (oh look, magic interacting with technology you wear into those environments I talked about)
Sure, sure. The Technomancer can boost 1 (one) piece of gear (two with a feat!!), that is theirs, depending on subclass. Loads of interaction with technology. Just tons. How did I not see it.
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So the basic class feature they have that does magic to technology that they carry around doesn't count because... because.
And despite the fact that tons of the spells already released in the preview interact with technology in a variety of ways ways, you are worried that there won't be spells that interact with technology in what you think are very basic necessary ways for a technomancer, and so those abilities need to be baked into the technomancer, pushing out the the newer stuff so that all they can do is interact with technology, so that if the adventure takes place anywhere without high-tech, the class is useless? This is what you're wanting?
I repeat, do y'all want the 5eRanger, because this is how you get the D&D5e Ranger. What I mean by this is, the original 5e ranger, in their favored terrain was amazing. they had awesome abilities that made the party's lives easier, but the moment the party left the swamp/forest/desert/mountain/cave etc. most of their class abilities shut off. This is clearly them trying not to give you abilities that go away in common environments.
I've seen someone mention actual features, like an ability to directly interface with computers, much like a druid's wildsong, but allowing them to talk to tech. That makes sense and wouldn't take up too much power budget and push out other features. What features, SPECIFICALLY, are you wanting?
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Zoken44, I don't understand why you're being so confrontational and condescending about this topic. It's a playtest for the tech book and people are feeling like a class with Techno- in the name isn't really interfacing with tech very much; you can disagree, but it's a valid reaction that doesn't need to be met with nearly as much hostility as you're bringing to it.
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That wasn't my intention, and you make a good point. I apologize for being condescending. It wasn't my intention, but I can see it there.
I stand by my comparison to the 5e ranger, but also recognize that I am being a lot more confrontational than this discussion really calls for. I am sorry.
I do think that the technomancer is treating magic like technology more than treating technology like magic. Which I prefer, but I also, idk. You can do a lot of what is being asked for with already existing spells and with skills. Frankly with how the class should/would play as written, it seems clear to me overclocking is a ribbon feature that is the action tax to do your class ability of hacking spells. I see the flavor as the spells being programs themselves and you're hacking spell programs. No divide between magic and tech exists here imo
This is why I asked op what they wanted in specific. I'd like to know what we are replacing to do what and what the benefit is. Already I think it is clear that the class is going to have minimal hardware focused tech abilities because of the mechanic. So this is my assumption. I also find it interesting people are pointing to the original class which has the same criticism of "being a wizard in space" with little tech actually involved
If I designed the class we'd have focus spells that summoned turrets and guns, robots etc. but admittedly that's what the mechanic does
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And despite the fact that tons of the spells already released in the preview interact with technology in a variety of ways ways, you are worried that there won't be spells that interact with technology in what you think are very basic necessary ways for a technomancer, and so those abilities need to be baked into the technomancer, pushing out the the newer stuff so that all they can do is interact with technology, so that if the adventure takes place anywhere without high-tech, the class is useless? This is what you're wanting?
There's two points in this particular paragraph. The first is spells, and while yes, the core playtest does have some spells, those are not Technomancer spells. None of them are unique to the Technomancer, and so would be like saying that Fireball is a spell that defines what a Wizard can do, or a longsword defines what a Fighter can do. No general spell list defines a class (and nothing indicates that Technomancer will have a unique spell list), and therefore bears little weight to this topic.
The second point is that you're arguing that we want to abolish the new programing related, spellshaping things. No one has said that? Except you? We want more versatility, more things covering this design space, not less.
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I am sorry for straw-manning you. My thinking was that if new baked in abilities were put in, current abilities would need to be pushed out for balance. That is why I put words in your mouth about removing other abilities. Do you feel the Overclock and jailbreak abilities are underpowered and leave room for more class specific abilities? If so, what would you like to see added in.
While I disagree with you about the spell situation in nuanced ways, I hear what you're saying.
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I'm personally of the camp that the Technomancer could definitely use a bit more techno- in their kit. It's not just that that aspect feels oddly subdued on a class whose focus in fiction generally revolves around magically interfacing with technology: right now, there are mechanical gaps as well in the Technomancer's kit, particularly with programming languages like ServoShell and Viper, that ought to be filled with magic that produces or interfaces with technology. I would also say that this need not come at the expense of their current magic hacking angle, and in fact could help round it out, especially in the form of more options. For instance:
In short, there's room as-is on the class to easily accommodate tech-oriented options, and doing so would be to their direct thematic and mechanical benefit. Everybody wins.
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Being able to use Computers actions from a distance, and potentially also on multiple devices at once, sounds like a no-brainer feat or series of feats on this class.
I was thinking about this sorta thing specifically at work today. I don't know if there is any precedent outside of archetypes, but what if technomancer got technomancer specific skill feats for this? One of my issues is that a lot of feats on the class look really good already and choosing some glorified skill actions for flavor at the expense of some of the cool feats the class already has is quite difficult, but maybe if they take up a skill feat then we might be cooking
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Some people want more than a narrative descriptive of something.
Looking at the Technomancer focus spells, if you skip the first, purely descriptive, bit and read only the mechanics, they could absolutely just be wizard focus spells.
"Make your next spell do a different damage type"
"Your next elemental spell gives you a temporary resistance"
"Your next spell that would affect you affects your minion instead". At least this one has the decency to throw in a requirement if a technological minion.
The issue presented, as I understand it, is that if you remove all the flavor text and trappings, there is very little that the technomancer has to contribute in the realm of technology that isn't genetically available to anyone with skills or spells.
And that's a right shame.
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At present, I don't understand why this Technomancer couldn't have been in the core rulebook.
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So the basic class feature they have that does magic to technology that they carry around doesn't count because... because.
Real quick wanted to respond to this snarky comment:
"Yeah I'm kind of a tech enthusiast. But only really in one field. Well, one product category. Well... toasters. I am a tech enthusiast for toasters. The kitchen appliance."
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So the basic class feature they have that does magic to technology that they carry around doesn't count because... because.Real quick wanted to respond to this snarky comment:
"Yeah I'm kind of a tech enthusiast. But only really in one field. Well, one product category. Well... toasters. I am a tech enthusiast for toasters. The kitchen appliance."
When you think about it, pretty much any Turret or Mine Mechanic might be throwing a heavily modified Cinder Dragon 9000 Industrial Kitchen Toaster onto the battlefield.
Make a reflex save against 12d8 of buttery damage, evenly toasted to perfection!
Reflex huh?
In every other instance of "Buttery Damage" I've ever seen, its been Fortitude saves...well, except for that one "Butter Cream" Focus spell that was Will *Which I still contend should have had the incapacitation trait*!| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
What you described the technomancer doing is the Witchwarper thing. Setting up a field of altered reality. That is a tech themed Witchwarper subclass.
I'd also like to push back on this.
Augmented reality is, essentially, having a heads up display that lets you see virtual objects, information, and entities that are superimposed on the real world, and have spatial coherence.
In the sci-fi future, it can be easily imagined that Augmented Reality could be a big deal, closely linked to a planet's infosphere. Imagine Pokemon Go a thousand years in the future using an unimaginably advanced AR headset. Your group could have full conversations with persistent AI personas that is almost impossible to distinguish from reality. All of this, presumably, relying on the existence of a shared connection to the infosphere that hosts the persistent AR content.
Being able to permanently act as a mini infosphere-hotspot/matrix node/AR node does not, to me, necessarily equate to a Witchwarper. We're not talking about a specific zone becomes difficult terrain type stuff. We're talking letting meatspace individuals see your AI Cortana who is normally only visible in AR, or creating a floating HP meter above an enemy's head, or creating hard-light projections of your programmed minions that aren't themselves magical in nature. Things like that.
If they did print a Witchwarper focused on AR/VR I would call foul that it's 100% trying to eat the Technomancer's lunch.
All of this AR/VR talk may sound like me pulling it out of nowhere, but I'd like to point out that if our futuristic sci-fi game doesn't even have AR/VR capabilities comparable to what we have today, on earth, then we have SERIOUSLY failed the Starfinder setting. I'm going to continue to push for more creativity in the tech space, because it's really what sets this game apart from Pathfinder, and having everything just being gun cowboys in space really makes me feel like we're not giving ourselves enough creative liberty.
I've championed that Starfinder 1e de-emphasized magic too much regularly in the past. Now I find myself facing people saying, essentially, that spells are our replacement for technology in this version of Starfinder, which is bonkers to me.
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At present, I don't understand why this Technomancer couldn't have been in the core rulebook.
To make for a more compelling player-focused book to sell in the fiscal quarter following the release of the new edition.
Imagine the Mechanic and Technomancer released in the Player Core. I bet a substantive portion of the community loses interest in Name TBA Technology Book.
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Maya Coleman has called it the Tech Core Playtest before so I think it's indirectly confirmed that the book is Tech Core
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Imagine the Mechanic and Technomancer released in the Player Core. I bet a substantive portion of the community loses interest in Name TBA Technology Book.
I mean, they could have put the Nanocyte in there, like they did in Tech Revolution for SF1. Wouldn't have been a half bad place to put the Biohacker, either
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So WatersLethe, I didn't mention Augmented reality. I understand what AR/VR are. I said "ALTERED" reality. someone was talking about creating a area where digital constructs became real and such. Creating pockets of Altered reality is explicitly the bread and butter of the witchwarper. So what's being described in that situation would be more akin to a tech themed witchwarper.
my argument regarding spells is that they have said previously that spells that interact with technology are common since the setting has had high technology for centuries. So a lot of the flavorful tech things you mention, for example creating the HP and stat screen for an enemy, are things spells will cover (or in some of the other cases may) cover.
What I worry not many are accounting for is that not all environments will be high tech. and if too much of the class' power budget is put into interacting directly with tech, that may not leave them much they can do in environments without tech. I think that's why they created the OVerclock and modify abilities for these two classes. so that you could always interact with the tech you bring with you and your powers are never turned off because you are in the wrong environment. And then you have a lot of spells that let the technomancer interact with technology in those more creative ways y'all are thinking of, but you can prepare non-tech dependent spells if you know you'll be in a low tech area. that is what I was trying to get across before.
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So WatersLethe, I didn't mention Augmented reality. I understand what AR/VR are. I said "ALTERED" reality. someone was talking about creating a area where digital constructs became real and such. Creating pockets of Altered reality is explicitly the bread and butter of the witchwarper. So what's being described in that situation would be more akin to a tech themed witchwarper.
I am the one talking about creating an "area" where you can do things like that. But I want to be clear. I want Technomancers to be able to create an "area" of "internet access" on the order of 100's of feet in radius, wherein AR content can be located just as it could in a techno-future city even in a barren wilderness planet. They could then use that "internet access" to do things like summon hardlight versions of their AI programs, or things of that nature. If this sounds too much like a Witchwarper, I'm afraid Witchwarper should butt out not the other way around.
my argument regarding spells is that they have said previously that spells that interact with technology are common since the setting has had high technology for centuries. So a lot of the flavorful tech things you mention, for example creating the HP and stat screen for an enemy, are things spells will cover (or in some of the other cases may) cover.
The problem with this approach is that ANY spellcaster with access to the arcane list is going to be just as much "techno" as a technomancer. A wizard would actually be better, because they can cast more spells per day. It also has a cost from a worldbuilding perspective, where it feels a lot more like a coat of paint on a fantasy RPG engine, because everything technological is also "a wizard did it" here just as it was in PF times.
It could work if there were a lot of tech-specific FOCUS spells that the Technomancer had ready access to, thus protecting their "tech specialist" niche to a great degree. That would align with how, for example, Druid and Bard get focus spells that plant their flavor flags firmly in the ground.
What I worry not many are accounting for is that not all environments will be high tech. and if too much of the class' power budget is put into interacting directly with tech, that may not leave them much they can do in environments without tech. I think that's why they created the OVerclock and modify abilities for these two classes. so that you could always interact with the tech you bring with you and your powers are never turned off because you are in the wrong environment. And then you have a lot of spells that let the technomancer interact with technology in those more creative ways y'all are thinking of, but you can prepare non-tech dependent spells if you know you'll be in a low tech area. that is what I was trying to get across before.
I am arguing that the technomancer should have the ability to bring tech with them. They're playing a science fantasy game and have elected to play a technomancer. If you tell the player they're in a wilderness and there's no tech, and they can't bring enough with them to utilize cool futuristic technology abilities... you're not working with the setting. We can't keep technology at arms length just because someone MIGHT want to make a low-tech campaign, or we're kneecapping our creativity for this SCIENCE fantasy game.
Being able to do a neat trick with one (1) item, especially one as unimaginative as a gun, does a disservice. If they could do many party tricks with data pads, scanners, augmented reality, AI, or a variety of other things, and other classes couldn't easily replicate those, then we're talking. Right now it's not enough.
It's pretty obvious that the Spell Cache/Download Spell options are inspired by or codeveloped with the recently released new version Runelord archetype for PF2.
But the Runelord has a universal list of spells that all Runelords can swap to replace a prepared spell plus a rune specific list. It might be a good idea to give all Technomancers a shared list of utility/generic tech spells (e.g. delete and discharge) as part of their Spell Cache and then add on programming language specific stuff. That would allow them to be better than other arcane casters at flexibly overcoming tech problems with spells.
It's pretty obvious that the Spell Cache/Download Spell options are inspired by or codeveloped with the recently released new version Runelord archetype for PF2.
But the Runelord has a universal list of spells that all Runelords can swap to replace a prepared spell plus a rune specific list. It might be a good idea to give all Technomancers a shared list of utility/generic tech spells (e.g. delete and discharge) as part of their Spell Cache and then add on programming language specific stuff. That would allow them to be better than other arcane casters at flexibly overcoming tech problems with spells.
I'm alright with this. Frankly I wish they had four different traditions in Starfinder that matched the setting, and then had a conversion guide which said "if playing this class in Pathfinder replace the tech magic tradition with the arcane" or whatever, but we're well beyond that point