Dragons are a staple of fantasy and rpgs can we get more of them?
The January PaizoLive established that we’ll be getting a cinder dragon later (I believe this year). Unsure about other dragons with whatever that might come alongside with, because if memory serves correctly, said dragon wasn’t going to be in Lost Omens: Shining Kingdoms. Then there’s of course the Starfinder dragons (the akashic dragon is on the Player Core cover and should be in Alien Core).
I would also enjoy more dragons though in Pathfinder in particular, even if I personally care more about the kinda weird occult dragons. So I hope the cinder dragon is accompanied by some other dragons too. I hope that kinda answers your question?
TLDR; yes, we know at least one is coming for Pathfinder later this year, maybe more will be alongside it.
Monster Core 2 was cited in Guns and Gears, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it get an official anouncement at PaizoCon. Although it's unknown if the main focus will be on updating the legacy 2e Dragons of Paizo's creation (The elemental Plane Dragons and Imperial Dragons) or adding new ones. Shining Kingdoms and Dragon's Demands have also added the Cinder Dragon and... It was either a Swamp or a Bog dragon, I forget which. If those don't appear in MC2, I'm sure they'll appear in another book soon.
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I recall mention of a Rune Dragon in one of the new Pactbinder, sounds like a potential new Dragon
I'd love to get more Primal dragons, well, ELEMENTAL dragons.
Here's what I would like to see:
Elemental Planes - Good dragons - Evil dragons
Air - Cloud (done) - Storm
Earth - Crystal (done) - Fossil
Fire - Radiant - Magma (done)
Metal - Alchemy - Rust
Water - Wave - Brine (done)
Wood - Oak - Blight
I'm aware of alignment removal, but... given the descriptions, the current dragons are not as "morally grey" as they behave. Umbral dragons are considered "Primal dragons", but since the Void isn't an Elemental Plane, I'd "remove" it from that classification... and add a Photon Dragon for the Creation's Forge as its counterpart.
- Storm Dragons are destroyers and always surrounded by a storm cloud. Its breath is a line of lightning.
- Fossil Dragons are hunters, wearing their preys' bones as trophies. Its breath is a cone of poison, causing petrification/calcification.
- Radiant Dragons are almost angelic in design. Its breath is a line of divine energy.
- Alchemy Dragons have sleek bodies, almost liquid-like. Its breath is a line of acid, but with various secondary effects, rolled at random.
- Rust Dragons are bulky and have rusted objects stuck on their hides. Its breath is a cone of rusting acid.
- Wave Dragons resemble whales, with fin-like wings. Its breath is a cone of cold.
- Oak Dragons resemble detailled wood statues. Its breath is a line of wooden flechettes/splinters.
- Blight Dragons resemble sagging topiary sculptures with a rotting aura. Its breath is a cone of poison with a rotting effect.
I’ll see what I can do. ;)
Interesting.
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We are missing a puff the magic dragon (needs to live by the sea)
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This is an absolutely incredible list of dragons right here.I'd love to get more Primal dragons, well, ELEMENTAL dragons.
Here's what I would like to see:
Thank you ^_^
In short, I took all 6 Elemental Planes and paired them with a good and an evil dragon, again based on their descriptions. Crystal Dragons are friendly, while Magma Dragons can lash without warning ^^;
This is similar to how in Rage of the Elements, each Plane has a good-natured and an evil-natured deity... except Metal, which has deities that can both Heal and Harm, and Wood, which both presented Deities can heal.
I am aware that Forest Dragons are native, or at least have established themselves on the Plane of Wood, but those are Imperial Dragons. Sky and Sea Dragons could next in the Plane of Air or Water, respectively.
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I would really like the planar dragons to return! Stuff like the apocalypse dragon from Abaddon, havoc dragons from Elysium, and tumult dragons from the Maelstrom. I really would like to know how infernal and diabolic dragons interact with one another, as both species are native to Hell.
I mean my assumption is that diabolic dragons just *are* the new infernal dragons & there was a redesign for either creative or legal reasons.
Which is odd because the Empyreal dragon is very clearly not the Bliss, Paradise, or Havoc dragon but looks instead to be the new gold dragon(I believe Mengkare has been confirmed as an Empyreal dragon, don't quote me on that).
So that left me wondering how much of all the old dragons might have been wrapped up in the OLG.
That being said I'm a huge fan of the Planar dragons(infernal dragon is as close as I'm ever going to get to my beloved Hellfire Wyrm coming back) so I'd like to see all of them back in some form or fashion.
I'm assuming that a lot of the upcoming dragons just are going to be the lawyer-friendly versions of existing dragons that they didn't want to open the gate with. In the same way that the horned dragon just *is* the new green dragon, Cinder dragons have pretty much been confirmed to be the new red dragons, with Daralathyxl being confirmed as a cinder dragon.
I don't know that all of the old metallic & chromatics need direct one to one updates like that, with several of them you could probably get away with folding them into primal & planar. But it'll be something to keep an eye on.
I am very curious as to what kind of dragon Kazavon & Terendelev will turn out to have been.
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So... Here's two ideas I just had:
Fungus Dragons
Originating from the Plane of Wood, they can be rather unintentionally destructive outside their native plane, as not all the fungi that spread in their presences are harmless. Fungus Dragons, generally, do not mean to cause harm, it is simply a fact that their biology makes them immune to poisonous, toxic, or parasitic fungi and/or mold.
Quicksilver Dragons
...Who here has heard of Dingo Doodles?
Community & Social Media Specialist
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So... Here's two ideas I just had:
Fungus Dragons
Originating from the Plane of Wood, they can be rather unintentionally destructive outside their native plane, as not all the fungi that spread in their presences are harmless. Fungus Dragons, generally, do not mean to cause harm, it is simply a fact that their biology makes them immune to poisonous, toxic, or parasitic fungi and/or mold.Quicksilver Dragons
...Who here has heard of Dingo Doodles?
Fungus dragons made my skin crawl, which means it's a wonderful idea.
Check the Pathfinder Wiki. Before the remaster there are plenty of dragons which can still be used in home games. Though yes, would be fun to see more of them come back in some form under ORC.
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I mean my assumption is that diabolic dragons just *are* the new infernal dragons & there was a redesign for either creative or legal reasons.They aren't the same! Luis Loza confirmed it back when diabolic dragons were announced back in 2023.
Huh.
You know, I'm not normally one to criticize redundancy in world building but I do wonder if this might be, "did we need two separate hell dragons?"
Eh, more dragons is always better, I suppose.
Why does a region only need to have one dragon? Could be a few from each plane and other worlds that came over like the elves or just migrated on their own. Could get really interesting with it.
Imagine a single species of dragon, the original children of Apsu spreading out at nearly the dawn of time to every possible place in existence and evolving into different modern day dragons. There's nearly unlimited room for ideas.
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As far as dragons I'd like to see... Cold-based dragons are conspicuously absent and a noteable point of pain for a local player's barbarian concept.
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As far as dragons I'd like to see... Cold-based dragons are conspicuously absent and a noteable point of pain for a local player's barbarian concept.
It's not just that...
In the Remaster, they ONLY focused on the 8 new dragons, leaving both Primal and Imperial Dragons out of the loop. Dude, even Outer and Esoteric Dragons from P1E haven't still showed up.
Some less intelligent dragons, not necessarily drakes, and a civilization with a culture around becoming worthy by becoming a dragon rider.
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As far as dragons I'd like to see... Cold-based dragons are conspicuously absent and a noteable point of pain for a local player's barbarian concept.It's not just that...
In the Remaster, they ONLY focused on the 8 new dragons, leaving both Primal and Imperial Dragons out of the loop. Dude, even Outer and Esoteric Dragons from P1E haven't still showed up.
Sure, but the non-OGL legacy content is still usable in PFS (And in home games, you can continue to use whatever dragon you like). The dragon-themed classes even have guidelines for using Imperial Dragons and the original primal dragons as your draconic exemplar (Although they are missing alternate bloodline spells). But if a player in PFS wants a cold-based dragon as their exemplar for a new barbarian, sorcerer, or dragonblooded, they just don't have that option right now. Hence my highlighting their conspicuous absence since its something some I play with has complained of.
Sure, but the non-OGL legacy content is still usable in PFS (And in home games, you can continue to use whatever dragon you like). The dragon-themed classes even have guidelines for using Imperial Dragons and the original primal dragons as your draconic exemplar (Although they are missing alternate bloodline spells). But if a player in PFS wants a cold-based dragon as their exemplar for a new barbarian, sorcerer, or dragonblooded, they just don't have that option right now. Hence my highlighting their conspicuous absence since its something some I play with has complained of.As far as dragons I'd like to see... Cold-based dragons are conspicuously absent and a noteable point of pain for a local player's barbarian concept.It's not just that...
In the Remaster, they ONLY focused on the 8 new dragons, leaving both Primal and Imperial Dragons out of the loop. Dude, even Outer and Esoteric Dragons from P1E haven't still showed up.
From what I've heard, Chromatic Reds are renamed Cinder Dragons and Chromatic Blacks are renamed Bog Dragons.
So... pick White or Silver and you're good :)
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Please let it look good, nothing against designers being creative but red has always been by favorite so I want at least this one to look really good.From what I've heard, Chromatic Reds are renamed Cinder Dragons and Chromatic Blacks are renamed Bog Dragons.
So... pick White or Silver and you're good :)
The designs are Paizo's own, but the names are OGL.
For instance, D&D's Green Dragon has a crocodile head, whicle PF's version is wedge-shaped and nose-horned.
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Please let it look good, nothing against designers being creative but red has always been by favorite so I want at least this one to look really good.From what I've heard, Chromatic Reds are renamed Cinder Dragons and Chromatic Blacks are renamed Bog Dragons.
So... pick White or Silver and you're good :)
We have art on what cinder dragons look like via Lost Omens: Shining Kingdoms' cover art.
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It does beg the question why they haven't reprinted them post-remaster though...
Is it really that big of a mine field to reimagine the OGL dragons?
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I think it was more for the reason they felt confident in how cool their new dragons are.
That would be my guess.
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It does beg the question why they haven't reprinted them post-remaster though...
Is it really that big of a mine field to reimagine the OGL dragons?
They're already doing that. The horned dragon is a reimagined green dragon. The cinder dragon is a reimagined red dragon. The empyreal dragon is a reimagined gold dragon. The conspirator dragon is a reimagined whatever the shapeshifting schemer was before; the colors blend together for me.
Part of "reimagining" is "not having five good metallic dragons and five evil chromatic dragons". Part of that is having something else alongside. Omen dragons, for example.
"Reprinting" and "re-imagining" are mutually exclusive things, so I'm a little confused by what you're asking.
I guess if you're asking why they didn't just... tweak some things and reprint the ten from before, it's because they can't. The five and five, color-coded morality dragons are WotC's thing. Paizo publishing something in the remaster isn't just publishing it themselves; it's also a promise that it can be used under ORC or the Infinite license. Paizo can't do the bare minimum, and they're planning to be around long enough that "WotC dropped the issue for now" isn't something to lean on. Ideally, they want stuff where a lawsuit would get thrown out of court rather than being a multi-year legal battle.
Separately, yeah, I think the new dragons are a lot more varied and interesting, and I imagine Paizo is more excited by the new ones, coupled with the fact that the OGL dragons aren't going anywhere.
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Yeah, to add to what QuidEst said, there's also an element that they haven't reprinted all the metallics/chromatics for the same reason they haven't reprinted every single premaster statblock without OGL elements: To reprint a statblock in a new book, you need to actually, y'know, make that new book for them to be in (And making a new Monster Core with redesigns of various creatures is more work than just what they had to do for things like the GnG remaster - and stuff like that still takes time).
To use daemons as an example (Because I like daemons): there is nothing keeping any of them back from coming to the remaster, and yet even looking at just the daemons in Bestiaries 1-3, there's still 7 which are without reprint. Looking at animals we've still got 110 of those from Bestiary 1-3 without remaster reprints, and I highly doubt more than a couple of those are at all dependent on the OGL.
The remastered version of GnG referenced a Monster Core 2 (And the OG book listed Bestiary 3 and an entirely different page, so it wasn't just a case of a mistake from replacing Bestiary with Monster Core and nothing else), so that's likely to be a thing, but even then I expect only a couple of the metallics/chromatics to pop up in that one (As again, like QuidEst said, part of removing them from the OGL is not making them part of those same groups with each other).
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"Reprinting" and "re-imagining" are mutually exclusive things, so I'm a little confused by what you're asking.
I initially thought Paizo would...
1) rename all 10 dragons.2) alter their environment and behaviors.
3) remove their alignments.
4) update the rules.
5) ???
6) Profit :p
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"Reprinting" and "re-imagining" are mutually exclusive things, so I'm a little confused by what you're asking.I initially thought Paizo would...
1) rename all 10 dragons.
2) alter their environment and behaviors.
3) remove their alignments.
4) update the rules.
5) ???
6) Profit :p
Gotcha. They opted for "more than the minimum" and come up with a more interesting and unique approach to dragons so that we'd have more categories of better-differentiated dragons that are recognizably "Pathfinder". They probably could have done what you described, but it wouldn't really generate additional interest. Folks already have those ten available.
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It does beg the question why they haven't reprinted them post-remaster though...
Is it really that big of a mine field to reimagine the OGL dragons?
Because it's been a year and a half, give or take. There's been an emphasis on the new dragons in MC1, because they're, well new, and slapping an extra 10 or so dragons in the book would bloat. it.
Since then, I can't think of a single book where you'd print them. It's not a "minefield"
Gotcha. They opted for "more than the minimum" and come up with a more interesting and unique approach to dragons so that we'd have more categories of better-differentiated dragons that are recognizably "Pathfinder". They probably could have done what you described, but it wouldn't really generate additional interest. Folks already have those ten available.
Then again, nothing prevents them from creating their own dragons to further distance themselves from the OGL.
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Gotcha. They opted for "more than the minimum" and come up with a more interesting and unique approach to dragons so that we'd have more categories of better-differentiated dragons that are recognizably "Pathfinder". They probably could have done what you described, but it wouldn't really generate additional interest. Folks already have those ten available.Then again, nothing prevents them from creating their own dragons to further distance themselves from the OGL.
Isn't that what they did with Monster Core dragons?
I think that we're too accustomed with Paizo giving us 5 dragons per Monster Core/Bestiary...
Still, having more dragons leads to more bloodlines, draconic examplars and other related materials.
The Dragon Spit feat would need to be remastered as well.