I think Paizo could make this clearer.
I run emanations like I run auras as they seem exactly the same. Emanations say nothing about staying in place after use. Emanations by their nature emanate from the caster. If they have a duration, they continue to emanate from the caster. I don't see any rule that states, "Once the emanation is active, mark the location on the map in case the caster moves."
What it does state is the emanation always comes from the caster. This is implied within other effects as well such as Project Image where emanations originating from the caster cannot originate from the image.
I haven't seen a rule yet that makes the emanation ever stay in a location once the caster has moved. It always emanates from the caster.
I think if emanations didn't work like auras all the time, then it would be written more like the Prismatic Sphere spell where you create some burst effect centered on your square that stays there.
As far as I understand it emanations always emanate from the caster moving with them and there is no rule indicating they stay in the caster's last known space that the DM or player must mark on the map and calculate the emanations area from.
I think the Aura tag just creates unnecessary confusion myself at this point. They should combine it as part of the emanation rules as I would imagine many run them the same anyway.
I think the Aura tag just creates unnecessary confusion myself at this point.
The only right thing in your post: You are confused.
Emanations don't move, they only affect targets at the time of casting. They sometimes maintain an area, but it's rare (Dirge of Doom is one of the rare exceptions).
If you cast Courageous Anthem, you affect everyone inside the emanation. Nothing follows you, they are just affected during the entire duration of the spell even if they then move 60 feet away from you. If you don't get that, then you are not speaking about the actual rules but about what you think these spells should do.
It affects the party in while they are in the area of effect.
No.
When you cast the spell, everyone in the area gets a 1-hour buff. The area doesn't last one hour, it is instantaneous. It works like Calm, for example.
So Song of Marching works fine (there's just the issue that you can part ways with your allies so it should have a proximity requirement, that's all).
Emanations without the Aura trait only affects creatures at the time of casting. The duration is linked to the effects on the creature, not to the area (Dirge of Doom being a rare exception where the area also stays for the duration).
So bard casts. Moves. Next round: Sustains, Moves, Moves. The party moves with her. They are now 75' from the original casting spot. Spell is sustained.
The Bard casts, everyone's affected. The party moves. The Bard Sustains, all those affected keep the effect. And so on. The area serves only to determine who's affected originally.
That would be a radical re-interpretation of the rules, IMO.
It's not a re-interpretation of the rules, it's the rules. Emanations without the Aura trait don't move, only those affected at the time of casting stay affected during the whole duration of the spell. It's only radical because you were not applying the proper rules during all this time.
Before the remaster, there were issues with some spells (like Bless) that were mistakenly lacking the Aura trait and as such players were making up these moving Emanations. With the remaster adding the Aura Trait properly, there's no more issue: No aura trait, no moving area, only those inside the area at the time of casting gets affected during the entire duration.
So Level 18 enemy bard casts Voracious Gestalt. PC takes 14d6, then moves out of the emanation. Next round, Bard sustains. But poor PC continues to take 14d6 again because, according to you, "The area serves only to determine who's affected originally". Is that how you would play it?
Hey, uh, friend? Voracious Gestalt has the Aura trait; it already moves around with the caster. It's irrelevant to this conversation. It LITERALLY reads: "When you Cast the Spell, the gestalt deals 14d6 negative damage to all living creatures of your choice in the area, with a basic Fortitude save. Creatures you choose that end their turns in the area take 6d6 damage, with a basic Fortitude save."
Sustaining it is clearly meant to refer to the to keeping up the area of the Aura, not the 14d6 void damage. Because the creatures AS STATED take the damage only on cast or when they end their turn in it. Use your context clues.
There is an argument to be made that Sustaining an emanation "snaps" the emanation back to you for the purposes of calculating certain effects, for example Luring Wail. But, then again, there ARE non-Aura emanations that SPECIFICALLY mention they move with you, like Poltergeist's Fury. Antimagic Field mentions that summoned creatures within will reappear "if the field moves or ends" but has no in-description way of doing so, possibly supporting this theory. Both Diamond Dust and Overflowing Sorrow, from Gods & Magic, have the specification of being emanations "centered on you" which would suggest that emanations DON'T normally do so, even when Sustained.
But it's extremely clear that Emanations with a set duration that DO NOT have the Aura trait do not move with you. That's what the Aura trait is for. If it don't have the Aura trait and doesn't otherwise say it moves with you, then it doesn't move with you.
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I think the Aura tag just creates unnecessary confusion myself at this point.The only right thing in your post: You are confused.
Emanations don't move, they only affect targets at the time of casting. They sometimes maintain an area, but it's rare (Dirge of Doom is one of the rare exceptions).
If you cast Courageous Anthem, you affect everyone inside the emanation. Nothing follows you, they are just affected during the entire duration of the spell even if they then move 60 feet away from you. If you don't get that, then you are not speaking about the actual rules but about what you think these spells should do.
That's the limit of emanations. Which is why Dirge and the others are easy to run. They have a 1 round duration and effect everything in the area when cast.
Simple to rule. People are making this big deal about the caster moving, if the caster moves and the emanation has a duration where it affects targets that enter the emanation or some other variable, it will tell you in the spell description.
So stop making it seem complicated when it isn't.
So Level 18 enemy bard casts Voracious Gestalt. PC takes 14d6, then moves out of the emanation. Next round, Bard sustains. But poor PC continues to take 14d6 again because, according to you, "The area serves only to determine who's affected originally". Is that how you would play it?Hey, uh, friend? Voracious Gestalt has the Aura trait; it already moves around with the caster. It's irrelevant to this conversation. It LITERALLY reads: "When you Cast the Spell, the gestalt deals 14d6 negative damage to all living creatures of your choice in the area, with a basic Fortitude save. Creatures you choose that end their turns in the area take 6d6 damage, with a basic Fortitude save."
Sustaining it is clearly meant to refer to the to keeping up the area of the Aura, not the 14d6 void damage. Because the creatures AS STATED take the damage only on cast or when they end their turn in it. Use your context clues.
There is an argument to be made that Sustaining an emanation "snaps" the emanation back to you for the purposes of calculating certain effects, for example Luring Wail. But, then again, there ARE non-Aura emanations that SPECIFICALLY mention they move with you, like Poltergeist's Fury. Antimagic Field mentions that summoned creatures within will reappear "if the field moves or ends" but has no in-description way of doing so, possibly supporting this theory. Both Diamond Dust and Overflowing Sorrow, from Gods & Magic, have the specification of being emanations "centered on you" which would suggest that emanations DON'T normally do so, even when Sustained.
But it's extremely clear that Emanations with a set duration...
Exactly. The spell description will tell you how it runs. It's not confusing at all save for those trying to make it confusing.
Emanations always come from the caster, always. Whether they are instantaneous or have a duration or how they affect things which should be in the spell description is where you have to read a bit to see how it works.
Emanations are often indistinguishable from auras when used. I wouldn't worry about the difference too much. Just know the emanation always comes from the caster whether when cast, moving, sustained, or what not. Look to the spell description for tags or explanations for how it works once in play.
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If emanations followed you, then the rules of emanations would make that distinction, and individual emanation spells wouldn't have to specifically mention it. It's as simple as that. Lines, Bursts, and Cones don't say they follow you, and neither do emanations.
We can argue which individual emanation spells are "supposed" to move with you, but all that means is that they should likely be put up in the errata thread to add the Aura trait, which is supposed to be for emanations that follow you.
Emanations are distinguishable from Auras when used, because otherwise spells wouldn't have been errata'd with the Remaster to include the Aura trait if the Aura trait didn't mean anything.
If emanations followed you, then the rules of emanations would make that distinction, and individual emanation spells wouldn't have to specifically mention it. It's as simple as that. Lines, Bursts, and Cones don't say they follow you, and neither do emanations.
We can argue which individual emanation spells are "supposed" to move with you, but all that means is that they should likely be put up in the errata thread to add the Aura trait, which is supposed to be for emanations that follow you.
Emanations are distinguishable from Auras when used, because otherwise spells wouldn't have been errata'd with the Remaster to include the Aura trait if the Aura trait didn't mean anything.
Emanations do make the distinction when they clearly state they emanate from the caster no matter what you do. You move, they still emanate from your square. You get moved, they still emanate from you. Emanations don't remain in place if you move.
Their effects may be instantaneous or last 1 round only affecting those in the emanation at the time of casting. If you move and sustain an emanation, it's effect is going to move with you and emanate from the caster no matter what you do. There is no rule stating emanations get marked at the casters square at the time of casting and remain there is you sustain them.
That seems to be the argument. But the emanations rule clearly states they always, always, always emanate from the caster even if the caster moves.
So the argument is one that requires parsing the spell description if they lack the aura trait to make it simple. If the spell has a 1 round duration like bard cantrips, then it effects everyone in the emanation a the the time of casting.
If the emanation has some kind of sustain component and you move, then the spell description should tell you how that works if the aura tag is not present. But that will not change that the emanation moves with the caster and always will even if the effect doesn't.
There seems to be one group arguing that an emanation once cast remains centered on the space where the caster cast it and that isn't true at all. Emanations always emanate from the caster whether they move or what not and that is clear in the rules.
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I really am not seeing how you can claim that it "clearly" states they "always, always, always" emanate from the caster. I'm literally looking at the rule right here.
An emanation issues forth from each side of your space, extending out to a specified number of feet in all directions. For instance, the bless spell’s emanation radiates 15 or more feet outward from the caster. Because the sides of a creature’s space are the starting point for the emanation, an emanation from a Large or larger creature affects a greater overall area than that of a Medium or smaller creature. Unless the text states otherwise, the creature creating an emanation effect chooses whether the creature at its center is affected.
That's it. That's the WHOLE RULE. Unless there's some other rule about emanations moving with the caster in Player Core that I'm missing, this is all that's said about the area type "Emanation".
"Issues forth from each side of your space" is no more clear than lines and cones saying they "shoot forth from you" and "shoot out from you" respectively. All it describes is what happens when the spell effect is created. Does Pave Ground move with the caster? After all, a line ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS "shoots forth from you". That's clear in the rules, at least according to the same logic put forth for emanations.
The only text here that would suggest anything of the sort is the last sentence, which isn't as clear-cut as I think you're making it out to be. "The creature at the center" of an emanation spell when it is cast is usually the caster, and they get to make the choice here. It wouldn't matter if they moved afterwards, since they chose already whether or not they were affected by the spell or not. But it's not exactly so clear. That's my point.
Personally? A lot of emanation spells seem like they should move with the caster, so I can just give them the Aura trait to make them work as they should. But Rules As Written? They're wonky, and until we get an official FAQ for them, they will remain wonky RAW.
I really am not seeing how you can claim that it "clearly" states they "always, always, always" emanate from the caster. I'm literally looking at the rule right here.
An emanation issues forth from each side of your space, extending out to a specified number of feet in all directions. For instance, the bless spell’s emanation radiates 15 or more feet outward from the caster. Because the sides of a creature’s space are the starting point for the emanation, an emanation from a Large or larger creature affects a greater overall area than that of a Medium or smaller creature. Unless the text states otherwise, the creature creating an emanation effect chooses whether the creature at its center is affected.That's it. That's the WHOLE RULE. Unless there's some other rule about emanations moving with the caster in Player Core that I'm missing, this is all that's said about the area type "Emanation".
"Issues forth from each side of your space" is no more clear than lines and cones saying they "shoot forth from you" and "shoot out from you" respectively. All it describes is what happens when the spell effect is created. Does Pave Ground move with the caster? After all, a line ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS "shoots forth from you". That's clear in the rules, at least according to the same logic put forth for emanations.
The only text here that would suggest anything of the sort is the last sentence, which isn't as clear-cut as I think you're making it out to be. "The creature at the center" of an emanation spell when it is cast is usually the caster, and they get to make the choice here. It wouldn't matter if they moved afterwards, since they chose already whether or not they were affected by the spell or not. But it's not exactly so clear. That's my point.
Personally? A lot of emanation spells seem like they should move with the caster, so I can...
It clearly says they emanate from your space. Where does your space go if you move 20 feet away?
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BigHatMarisa is right.
You're overcomplicating something that's simple.
Emanation is an area of effect, whose origin is the character himself, who can affect him or not at his choice. Nothing more, nothing less.
Duration is the time an effect persists, these effects can be ended over time, or interrupted, dismissed or sustained and end when the character stops sustaining them.
They aren't directly related.
So I'll give you a visual example. Imagine that Paizo implements Diablo's Frost Nova 2/4 as a 30-foot emanation and that this spell causes any initial cold damage and leaves targets that fail their reflexes slow by 1 for 1 minute. Everyone will understand that the character emanates a pulse, that this pulse causes cold damage and that those affected will be under the effect of the slow condition for 1 minute, regardless of whether the caster is still in place or not or whether the enemies have moved or not, that they were affected during the initial test when the emanation was made, failed and are now under the effect's duration.
That's exactly how the emanation works!
Emanations with the Aura trait work differently, the effect is constantly emanated, and those who enter the area of the emanation are affected and those who leave are no longer affected while the effect lasts.
It's that simple, there's no need to complicate things any further.
All that said there's some effects that are poorly written. For example, Luring Wail failure effect description is clearly made considering the spell as an aura but the spell lacks of aura trait.
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To me, it's quite simple, my and Deriven's reading makes running Dirge of Doom and other Compositions really easy to run, to the point of me (and probably him as well) not even realizing that it was supposed to be contentious.
Everyone else's "static" emanation readings are causing a s#&~ ton of problems with rules interactions and making complicated to run and rule it.
Guess what I'm choosing?
I don't care about the Aura trait or if the Emanation trait specifies that it moves with the target clearly or not (even though the implication is there). My Dirge of Doom moves with my Bards and Frightened 1 is always applied and only ticks down once enemies end their turns outside of the the emanation AOE (as it's usual for Frightened). Easy. Effortless. It just works.
Have fun with meaningless minutia, folks, peace!
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This is pure semantics. Multiple rulings are true at the same time.
1. Emanations always emanate from the caster. Always. Nothing states otherwise. If they move, it still emanates from the caster. Doesn't matter it they move 20 feet or a mile or to another planet.
2. The effect of the emanation occurs when the emanation is cast applying whatever effect it applies.
3. Any other applicable rules to the emanation are in the spell text.
In the case of Dirge of Doom:
1. Cast emanation: Every enemy in 30 feet affected.
2. Spell text: Condition cannot be reduced if the target remains in the area.
3. Bard moves taking the emanation area with them possibly putting the target or targets outside the area.
Part 3 is where we seem to be in disagreement. Some want to say the 30 foot emanation remains centered on where the bard was.
Some of us say the emanation area moves with the bard so that the target is outside the area if the bard moves.
Could Paizo have made this clearer? Sure.
Does this come up very much in game? Nope. Run it as you wish.
I follow the emanation rules that state it emanates from the casters space when designating the area. That means I apply the affect to everyone in the area at the time of casting, but if the bard moves taking the emanation area with them then the qualifying part in the text removes the target from the area.
That's how I run Dirge of Doom.
Nevermind, I said Dirge of Doom is a rule nightmare because it's a rule nightmare.
And you know what's the worst in all of that? We haven't even started speaking about the actual rule issue it raises, which are ongoing effects :D
Dirge of Doom is the most complicated spell in the game, I'm not even sure 1% of the players can adjudicate it properly. So much that I ban it at my PFS table unless I have an hour to spend explaining the player how it works as it will for sure disrupt the game too much otherwise.
To me, the RAI for a magical bardic performance seems pretty clearly that it moves with them as they perform, affecting things within some range of the performance.
It's your mind eye that is bugging you. You need to change the way you see Bardic Compositions, they are just spells like any other. Actually, the Bard doesn't perform while the Bardic Composition lasts, they perform only at the time of casting and then stop (if you are for example silenced or Stunned while a Composition is active, it doesn't stop the effect on your allies).
Performing for the duration of the Composition is purely flavor, it's not useful at all.
We haven't even started speaking about the actual rule issue it raises, which are ongoing effects :D
Dirge of Doom is the most complicated spell in the game, I'm not even sure 1% of the players can adjudicate it properly. So much that I ban it at my PFS table unless I have an hour to spend explaining the player how it works as it will for sure disrupt the game too much otherwise.
Well you have time now to state the problem as you see it.
I don't care about the Aura trait or if the Emanation trait specifies that it moves with the target clearly or not (even though the implication is there).Which is fine for in-play adjudication, but then the question is what the frak mechanical meaning does the Aura trait have for spells which are already sustained emanations?
3. Bard moves taking the emanation area with them possibly putting the target or targets outside the area.
Part 3 is where we seem to be in disagreement. Some want to say the 30 foot emanation remains centered on where the bard was.
Some of us say the emanation area moves with the bard so that the target is outside the area if the bard moves.
To me, the RAI for a magical bardic performance seems pretty clearly that it moves with them as they perform, affecting things within some range of the performance. The issue is whether the mechanical description and traits of the spells are consistent with that RAI. Specifically, if one composition has the aura trait and a similar one doesn't, what does that aura trait giver or take away from the spell? What did Paizo mean for the GM to do differently by adding it?
So for example, Songbird's Call is a sustained emanation with the aura trait. Song of Marching is a sustained emanation without the aura trait. What mechanical difference does the aura trait signify?
To the folks who say: "aura trait is what tells the GM that the AoE moves with the caster," does that mean sustained compositions without the aura trait should be errata'd to have it? I think that's the argument.
To the folks who say "aura trait is NOT needed for the AoE to move with the caster," then what, in your mind, does the Aura trait actually do? Say I take SoM and homebrew add the Aura trait to it for my games: how does it behave differently? How do I describe to the player the mechanical difference I made to their spell? If there isn't any mechanical difference, doesn't that...
In my mind, the aura trait means anyone who enters the aura is affected immediately unless the text states otherwise and anyone who leaves the aura is immediately free of the effect unless the text states otherwise.
If Dirge of Doom were an aura, then anyone entering the area even after it was cast would be affected as soon as they entered the area. But the way it is currently written, only the targets within the emanation are affected at the time of casting.
The aura trait would make Dirge of Doom easier to rule for the qualifying effect of not reducing the frightened condition, but it would make Dirge of Doom more powerful than it currently is affecting other targets on their turn when they move into the area.
So I apply it using the emanation rules meaning the effect only applies when the Dirge is cast and the area of the emanation is always calculated off the location of the bard for the qualifying effect.
Seems easy to me. If that is not the intended ruling, then I guess Paizo can errata it at some point.
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Nevermind, I said Dirge of Doom is a rule nightmare because it's a rule nightmare.
And you know what's the worst in all of that? We haven't even started speaking about the actual rule issue it raises, which are ongoing effects :D
Dirge of Doom is the most complicated spell in the game, I'm not even sure 1% of the players can adjudicate it properly. So much that I ban it at my PFS table unless I have an hour to spend explaining the player how it works as it will for sure disrupt the game too much otherwise.
It's not that hard. You're just making it hard.
The way I run it is neither overpowered nor hard to adjudicate. It works fine.
Sometimes you overcomplicate easy rulings or overstate your positions.
Dirge of Doom is easy to see in the mind's eye, easy to run if you see how it works in the mind's eye, and I can see why they wrote it as is rather than made it an aura.
It's a burst of frightening music, dance, oration etc immediately scaring the targets and so long as the bard who plays it stays at a location that keeps the targets within the emanation's area, the scary music or oration or dance doesn't allow them to reduce the condition. In the mind's eye that is because the source of the fear is within range.
To me this is a simple ruling that some folks are making hard because of pedantry.
My DoD can straight up "tag" people. You cast it from the back line and the front line? Everyone the aura passes through gets frightened 1. Those how remain in the Bard's emanation at the end of their turns don't reduce it.
It's pretty nice. But the Bard is also taking a huge risk if they move to get more targets (and they're not casting another spell either).
It's strong? Yes. Does it make it too broken? I don't think so. Fear effects have many mitigation and immunity interactions, in some circumstances DoD is flat out useless.
Well you have time now to state the problem as you see it.
Well, it's simple: Is the Frightened condition applied by Dirge of Doom an ongoing effect or not?
Lots of players consider that the Frightened Condition is always an ongoing effect, without anything that state it in the rules and some spells that would be weird if it was the case (like Fear, which is rather basic for a spell that applies the Frightened condition). It's clearly a big change in behaviour as the end of the spell duration can either remove the Frightened condition on all affected enemy or not.On the area thing, there's a definite ruling and no reason to play it otherwise (and as such you can't "tag" people with Dirge of Doom, no question on that). But on the ongoing effect issue, there's a rather general feeling and RAW that seems to disagree. But the sentence about ongoing effects is unclear as hell and doesn't help to make an undisputed ruling.
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Well you have time now to state the problem as you see it.
Well, it's simple: Is the Frightened condition applied by Dirge of Doom an ongoing effect or not?
Lots of players consider that the Frightened Condition is always an ongoing effect, without anything that state it in the rules and some spells that would be weird if it was the case (like Fear, which is rather basic for a spell that applies the Frightened condition). It's clearly a big change in behaviour as the end of the spell duration can either remove the Frightened condition on all affected enemy or not.On the area thing, there's a definite ruling and no reason to play it otherwise (and as such you can't "tag" people with Dirge of Doom, no question on that). But on the ongoing effect issue, there's a rather general feeling and RAW that seems to disagree. But the sentence about ongoing effects is unclear as hell and doesn't help to make an undisputed ruling.
It's simple:
Dirge of Doom applies Frightened 1. It works like Frightened 1. As long as you're inside the emanation AOE (mobile or not), it can't tick down at the end of your turn. Once you end your turn OUTSIDE of the Dirge of Doom, it works like Frightened 1 and ticks down. Not that hard to grasp. After all, it applies Frightened 1 instead of a "-1 Status Bonus to all DCs and checks" for a reason, it's supposed to be used as a short hand (and interact with other abilities).
Well you have time now to state the problem as you see it.
Well, it's simple: Is the Frightened condition applied by Dirge of Doom an ongoing effect or not?
Lots of players consider that the Frightened Condition is always an ongoing effect, without anything that state it in the rules and some spells that would be weird if it was the case (like Fear, which is rather basic for a spell that applies the Frightened condition). It's clearly a big change in behaviour as the end of the spell duration can either remove the Frightened condition on all affected enemy or not.On the area thing, there's a definite ruling and no reason to play it otherwise (and as such you can't "tag" people with Dirge of Doom, no question on that). But on the ongoing effect issue, there's a rather general feeling and RAW that seems to disagree. But the sentence about ongoing effects is unclear as hell and doesn't help to make an undisputed ruling.
It's simple:
Dirge of Doom applies Frightened 1. It works like Frightened 1. As long as you're inside the emanation AOE (mobile or not), it can't tick down at the end of your turn. Once you end your turn OUTSIDE of the Dirge of Doom, it works like Frightened 1 and ticks down. Not that hard to grasp. After all, it applies Frightened 1 instead of a "-1 Status Bonus to all DCs and checks" for a reason, it's supposed to be used as a short hand (and interact with other abilities).
What you are missing in the rules
Conditions are persistent. Whenever you're affected by a condition, its effects last until the condition's stated duration ends, the condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition itself cause it to end.Note that there are 3 ways to end a condition.
Dirge has a duration.
Dirge of Doom
[one-action]
Cantrip 3
Uncommon Bard Cantrip Composition Concentrate Emotion Fear Mental
Source Player Core pg. 370 2.0
Area 30-foot emanation
Duration 1 round
Enemies within the area are frightened 1. They can't reduce their frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area.
So The Frightened condition from Dirge ends if the enemy is no longer in the area when the Frightened condition tick down normally.
But it also ends when the 1 round is up.
In my mind, the aura trait means anyone who enters the aura is affected immediately...
...{On Dirge of Doom} So I apply it using the emanation rules meaning the effect only applies when the Dirge is cast and the area of the emanation is always calculated off the location of the bard for the qualifying effect.Okay so Bob Bard casts Song of Marching. He and two of his party members are in the AoE. But fourth party member Alice was not. In round 2, Alice moves into range. But sadly, she can no longer ever be affected by this casting of SoM, because it doesn't have Aura. Too bad so sad, the three party members can hustle and do an exploration activity at the same time...but even though Alice can hear Bob perform and is literally standing next to him while he sustains it, she can't get the affect because "The effect only applies when it is cast". Is that how you'd rule it?
Do you think I would ever make Song of Marching so pedantically ruled? Bard would just recast it, get everyone.
You're trying real hard to make a problem when there is no issue.
I keep trying to understand why some folks want to create such headaches for themselves when they're playing this game for fun.
Well you have time now to state the problem as you see it.
Well, it's simple: Is the Frightened condition applied by Dirge of Doom an ongoing effect or not?
Lots of players consider that the Frightened Condition is always an ongoing effect, without anything that state it in the rules and some spells that would be weird if it was the case (like Fear, which is rather basic for a spell that applies the Frightened condition). It's clearly a big change in behaviour as the end of the spell duration can either remove the Frightened condition on all affected enemy or not.On the area thing, there's a definite ruling and no reason to play it otherwise (and as such you can't "tag" people with Dirge of Doom, no question on that). But on the ongoing effect issue, there's a rather general feeling and RAW that seems to disagree. But the sentence about ongoing effects is unclear as hell and doesn't help to make an undisputed ruling.
It's simple:
Dirge of Doom applies Frightened 1. It works like Frightened 1. As long as you're inside the emanation AOE (mobile or not), it can't tick down at the end of your turn. Once you end your turn OUTSIDE of the Dirge of Doom, it works like Frightened 1 and ticks down. Not that hard to grasp. After all, it applies Frightened 1 instead of a "-1 Status Bonus to all DCs and checks" for a reason, it's supposed to be used as a short hand (and interact with other abilities).What you are missing in the rules
Conditions are persistent. Whenever you're affected by a condition, its effects last until the condition's stated duration ends, the condition is removed, or terms dictated in the condition itself cause it to end.
Note that there are 3 ways to end a condition.Dirge has a duration.
Dirge of Doom
[one-action]
Cantrip 3
Uncommon Bard Cantrip Composition Concentrate Emotion Fear Mental
Source Player Core pg. 370 2.0
Area 30-foot emanation
Duration 1 round...
Yep. Then the bard must reapply it.
Bard composition cantrips are powerful, but action intensive and lead to a limiting play-style. That's why I don't play them after that first character.
I mean, the fact alone that at least four of us can very confidently say four different rulings and talk past each other for an entire page about it because "it's simple!" very much proves that it is, in fact, not quite as simple as we believe.
I'm not "creating" a headache by pointing out that, as written, emanations could probably use some kind of specification to make some kind of concrete answer, because as it is, there isn't one. I'm simply pointing out that the current state of how things are worded CAUSES me a headache.
The way that I work with bard's emanations in my games isn't how rules are written - because I think the Rules, As Written in this case aren't fitting what my mind's eye is imagining.
The way I imagine it, the bard is strumming a tune that evokes powerful, magical emotions for two seconds (the equivalent of an action), which is about enough to get a line or two of a limerick off. Then, six seconds later, he says another line or two. That's why it currently functions like a "pulse". But plenty of people imagine it as though it acts more akin to a sustained spell (much like PF1's bard and their swift action songs), and depending on the vibe of the party I can change between these as I like.
When the rules of the game are insufficient to create a ruling that people can agree that is what is written (regardless of how much we like that ruling or not), then it's not "no issue". See: "when does an attack make an attack roll?" from Pre-Remaster for another headache caused by not-quite-so-rigorous wording that made ambiguous rulings. Just because it doesn't come up every session doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at.
PFS sticks about as close to the rules as written as you can get, so it VERY MUCH MATTERS that the rules are able to be arbitrated as clean as possible at the table for as many GMs as possible and consistently, since characters need to be transferrable from table to table without issue.
Frankly, for our home games? Who gives a s%$@; run Dirge of Doom as a sustained emanation centered on an enemy within 30 feet for all I care. See how funny you can get with it. But for PFS, "pedantics" are necessary to keep the tables consistent with one-another.
I mean, the fact alone that at least four of us can very confidently say four different rulings and talk past each other for an entire page about it because "it's simple!" very much proves that it is, in fact, not quite as simple as we believe.
I'm not "creating" a headache by pointing out that, as written, emanations could probably use some kind of specification to make some kind of concrete answer, because as it is, there isn't one. I'm simply pointing out that the current state of how things are worded CAUSES me a headache.
The way that I work with bard's emanations in my games isn't how rules are written - because I think the Rules, As Written in this case aren't fitting what my mind's eye is imagining.
The way I imagine it, the bard is strumming a tune that evokes powerful, magical emotions for two seconds (the equivalent of an action), which is about enough to get a line or two of a limerick off. Then, six seconds later, he says another line or two. That's why it currently functions like a "pulse". But plenty of people imagine it as though it acts more akin to a sustained spell (much like PF1's bard and their swift action songs), and depending on the vibe of the party I can change between these as I like.
When the rules of the game are insufficient to create a ruling that people can agree that is what is written (regardless of how much we like that ruling or not), then it's not "no issue". See: "when does an attack make an attack roll?" from Pre-Remaster for another headache caused by not-quite-so-rigorous wording that made ambiguous rulings. Just because it doesn't come up every session doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at.
PFS sticks about as close to the rules as written as you can get, so it VERY MUCH MATTERS that the rules are able to be arbitrated as clean as possible at the table for as many GMs as possible and consistently, since characters need to be transferrable from table to table without issue.
Frankly, for our home games? Who gives a s+*$; run Dirge of Doom...
Just proves some people like to ice skate uphill as Wesley Snipes would say.
This is the first time I've seen anyone have a problem running Dirge of Doom for a variety of reasons. Biggest one being you often use it once a round while in range of the targets and you keep using it. The stuff usually dies before any of the other stuff matters.
Yet you have people in this thread making it seem like this cantrip causes some huge issue in the game. As though this 1 round duration composition with a 30 foot range just comes up all the time and causes massive headaches for DMs. I haven't experienced this at all.
First time I've even heard of DMs or players having a hard time with it.
Instances of Damage is sure confusing, but Dirge of Doom is pretty clear and easy to run from round to round that has never caused me any confusion.
To hear Superbidi tell it, it's caused perturbations at his table often I guess. I haven't experienced that at all. It hasn't even come up. We efficiently kill everything where 1 round duration cantrips don't really cause such consternation.
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To hear Superbidi tell it, it's caused perturbations at his table often I guess. I haven't experienced that at all. It hasn't even come up. We efficiently kill everything where 1 round duration cantrips don't really cause such consternation.
TableS
You play always at the same table so it's easy to say that you don't have rule issues. When, like I do, you change table roughly every game, rules issues become much more of a problem.
When a player is used to have a specific effect for Dirge of Doom and suddenly they arrive at my table and they get a significantly different effect, the game stops for the time to adjudicate the problem. When it's during a PFS adventure supposed to last 4 hours, and considering the length the discussion can have, it is very much a massive issue.
It also creates issues in shared spaces like here. OP's question is "Rallying Anthem vs Dirge of Doom?". When you compare Lightning Raven's version of Dirge of Doom and mine, we are speaking of completely different spells. So how can we answer the question meaningfully?
Okay so Bob Bard casts Song of Marching. He and two of his party members are in the AoE. But fourth party member Alice was not.
Why isn't Alice inside the AoE? I agree with Deriven, this situation doesn't make sense.
Thus, in this case I would not say "it's fine." I'd say "Paizo errata SoM to have Aura, because the obvious usage of it is for the hustle bonus to be available to PCs who enter the AoE during the hour, and for it to become unavailable to PCs who exit the...
Paizo, please don't. SoM having the Aura trait would be a headache to run. It's much better as is.
Alice has no valid reason to miss the first 2 seconds so she won't. Problem solved.
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That is saying "I will make up for a rule problem with common sense", it is not an argument that the rules are fine as is.
Welcome to tabletop RPGs where this has been occurring since the red box set I bought as a child.
These rulesets are large. Designers can't be expected to make everything perfect.
Dirge of Doom is not even in the wheelhouse of what I consider a hard to adjudicate rule. It's pretty easy to rule on with existing rules.
I'd prefer designers spend time fleshing out rules that are truly confusing like instances of damage or errata that is needed.
This thread is the first time I've read that people are having trouble with Dirge of Doom or Emanations. No one in my group is having trouble running Dirge or any emanation.
I'll leave it there as folks who are having trouble can debate it back and forth.