The Gamesmaster Guide seems vague on this, so I'd like to request an official ruling on this question:
Do dual class characters get one key attribute for each class?
If you can answer this but aren't a Paizo representative, please point me to where someone from Paizo cleared this up. I looked around but couldn't find such a response.
Thank you!
Unofficially, apps like Wanderer's Guide and Pathbuilder seem to be giving the bonus for both classes. As for official... No clue.
OK, thanks.
Is there a non-remaster or pre-remaster answer to this question? Paizo?
I give both. Why play dual class if you can't max out both key stats.
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I'd say both, as the text clearly mentions everything from the class except two things.
Then, when you get to the step of choosing a class, select two classes and add everything from each class except Hit Points and starting skills
As the stats increase belong to the class and it's not HP or skills, you get two stat bumps. If the main stats are not the same, that is, so a Sorc/Oracle (Soracle?) will still have one 18 only.
I think this is a toggle the GM can turn on or off depending on the characters people want to play. Like do you want to make "two separate key stats" appealing to your PCs, or are you fine with people doubling up on one for maximal synergy.
Any time you're using a variant rule there's going to be some adjusting needed by the GM (like the dual class rules specifically say "you might disallow combinations" and "you should limit how much of a benefit a character gets from feats that scale based on the number of feats you have".) So there's no such thing as RAW when it comes to variants- it's whatever sort of game the GM wants to run.
Is there a non-remaster or pre-remaster answer to this question? Paizo?
If there was, it would still be applicable and would have been mentioned.
But since I am not a Paizo employee, I'll see myself out now.
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I give both. Why play dual class if you can't max out both key stats.Because it still gives you a s*!&load of stuff.
The stuff only matters if it is effective which is driven by stats. So an unequal stat would push you towards the stuff using the higher stat.
I have played quite a few dual class games. Often all that stuff doesn't get used because action limitations always limit stuff.
A lot of it is excessive and sits there on the character looking like an option you never use.
What I like it for is when players don't want to play the healer or the support casters to give the players who don't like these roles the option to play these roles without having to give up playing a martial role they have more fun playing.
The biggest problem is with mixing martials that create stacking enhanced damage. Then you have monster classes that do this narrow thing too well. So I tend to use dual class to ensure caster-martial balance in a group not allowing martial dual classes.
Dual class casters have a natural bottleneck on power because action limitations limit spell use and caster abilities are set up very well not to stack.
Martial dual classes are the bigger danger when it comes to overpowered combinations. They often use the same stat anyway.
So giving both a key stat in a martial stat and a caster stat, which is how I usually structure dual class games makes the caster abilities and martial abilities equally attractive to use at least causing the player to choose between too equally viable options to use in a given round where as if I just give them the martial stat or caster stat they will almost always pick the martial stat and lean in that direction as it improves an unlimited resource they can enhance with weaker casting.
So I give both so the options are equally viable so when they pick from that "S-load of stuff" they don't feel one is clearly better than the other.
Martial dual classes are the bigger danger when it comes to overpowered combinations. They often use the same stat anyway.
What do you mean I can't play my dual class fighter giant instinct barbarian? Come on, legendary weapon proficiency + big(gest?) damage bonus per attack sounds like it should be fine to me.
What do you mean I can't play my dual class fighter giant instinct barbarian? Come on, legendary weapon proficiency + big(gest?) damage bonus per attack sounds like it should be fine to me.
Martial dual classes are the bigger danger when it comes to overpowered combinations. They often use the same stat anyway.
Yeah. Super brutal.
Fighter Rogue.
Fighter magus.
Even fighter ranger.
All super brutal.
Fighter champion is not as brutal for damage, but legendary armor and legendary weapons is pretty brutal too.
I was...I give both. Why play dual class if you can't max out both key stats.Because it still gives you a s*!&load of stuff.The stuff only matters if it is effective which is driven by stats. So an unequal stat would push you towards the stuff using the higher stat.
I have played quite a few dual class games. Often all that stuff doesn't get used because action limitations always limit stuff.
A lot of it is excessive and sits there on the character looking like an option you never use.
What I like it for is when players don't want to play the healer or the support casters to give the players who don't like these roles the option to play these roles without having to give up playing a martial role they have more fun playing.
The biggest problem is with mixing martials that create stacking enhanced damage. Then you have monster classes that do this narrow thing too well. So I tend to use dual class to ensure caster-martial balance in a group not allowing martial dual classes.
Dual class casters have a natural bottleneck on power because action limitations limit spell use and caster abilities are set up very well not to stack.
Martial dual classes are the bigger danger when it comes to overpowered combinations. They often use the same stat anyway.
So giving both a key stat in a martial stat and a caster stat, which is how I usually structure dual class games makes the caster abilities and martial abilities equally attractive to use at least causing the player to choose between too equally viable options to use in a given round where as if I just give them the martial stat or caster stat they will almost always pick the martial stat and lean in that direction as it improves an unlimited resource they can enhance with weaker casting.
So I give both so the options are equally viable so when they pick from that "S-load of stuff" they don't feel one is clearly better than the other.
Those you only get once. That was pretty clear in the rules? It seemed clear to me.
What do you mean I can't play my dual class fighter giant instinct barbarian? Come on, legendary weapon proficiency + big(gest?) damage bonus per attack sounds like it should be fine to me.
Martial dual classes are the bigger danger when it comes to overpowered combinations. They often use the same stat anyway.Yeah. Super brutal.
Fighter Rogue.
Fighter magus.
Even fighter ranger.
All super brutal.
Fighter champion is not as brutal for damage, but legendary armor and legendary weapons is pretty brutal too.
Yeah, fighter combining with any other martial is a pretty brutal combination because you're effectively gifting that class legendary weapon proficiency. Which seems so small when you say it, but is huge in impact.
Those you only get onceObviously.
That's not what I meant.
I meant that you get a lot from dual class even without the one attribute boost.
Like better proficiencies, better HP, etc.
Unless you specifically avoid them anyway.
PF2 is so easy that I don't think it matters a whole lot. I won't pretend it does.
PF2 is a very forgiving game once you learn how to play it. Min-maxing is very narrow and limited.
I like to give the second key attribute for the reasons I gave. I doubt it would have much of an impact if you didn't.
PF2 is so easy that I don't think it matters a whole lot. I won't pretend it does.PF2 is a very forgiving game once you learn how to play it. Min-maxing is very narrow and limited.
I don't know that I agree that PF2 is an easy game, I think it depends on how the encounter is set up.
If you're fighting an APL+2 boss that is not by any means easy.
An APL+1 boss with some minions is possibly even worse, even if the minions die easily they block access and threaten and do things that are easily reflected in the math.
Anyways, I do agree that once your group develops good strategies for how to deal with enemies and learns basic tactics (like don't make attacks with -8 or more MAP) that fights (while not trivial) become pretty manageable.
And min-maxing a character doesn't provide crazy differences in power level between players (although I will continue to argue that there are some classes that "struggle" compared to others that do similar things).
I was talking about ease of PCs winning a fight. Which is what it sounded like Deriven was talking about. But reviewing, I could be wrong.
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PF2 is so easy that I don't think it matters a whole lot. I won't pretend it does.PF2 is a very forgiving game once you learn how to play it. Min-maxing is very narrow and limited.
I don't know that I agree that PF2 is an easy game, I think it depends on how the encounter is set up.
If you're fighting an APL+2 boss that is not by any means easy.
An APL+1 boss with some minions is possibly even worse, even if the minions die easily they block access and threaten and do things that are easily reflected in the math.
Anyways, I do agree that once your group develops good strategies for how to deal with enemies and learns basic tactics (like don't make attacks with -8 or more MAP) that fights (while not trivial) become pretty manageable.
And min-maxing a character doesn't provide crazy differences in power level between players (although I will continue to argue that there are some classes that "struggle" compared to others that do similar things).
For the most part, what you say is true. For new players it would be more difficult, especially if they were playing a very easy game like 5E.
As you stated, once you know what to do it can get pretty easy unless there is a surprise special ability that is hard to deal with. I'm at that point now where I know how to use the narrow optimization path to beat most encounters easily.
I do like the occasional surprise from a DM who really makes something difficult.