The not yet remastered classes like magus, summoners, psychic and thaumaturge are compatible with remaster in general. They also get com compatibility erratas in the faq allowing adjustments.
About PC3 it was a suggestion that we made to allows Paizo designers to speedup the compatibility of these classes but instead they choose to keep the plans to adjust and reprint the old books as remastered when they become out-of-stock (like happened with Guns & Gears) or make a similar remastered version like Divine Mysteries that substitutes Gods & Magic.
So Secrets of Magic will go in this way. They will get a reprint version updated to remaster with the current faq adjustments and probably more or will have its content put into a new book about magic with most of its content inside like Divine Mysteries done.
Once that Runelord class archetype was reprint and remastered in Rival Academies currently I'm betting my 2 cents that the Paizo designers will make a new book about magic substituting the Secrets of Magic book in similar way that Divine Mysteries done with Gods & Magic with most of its content including the both classes along with some new content in place of the current lore and mechanically incompatible content.
So don't worry to use the current summoner in remastered games. Just seek for the adjustments in the faq or if you aren't using the online Archive of Nethys/Pathfinder Nexus to build it, it is already updated for remastered games.
The class is compatible with remaster. For instance it works just fine with remastered spells. For home games you have to discuss it with your GM just like you would any build. For PFS you would have to ask someone else, I don't do that. But my quick google tells me it's an accepted class choice there too.
It's PFS legal. Anything that was reprinted with the same name is treated like errata in PFS. So for example Weighty Impact gives the Knockdown monster ability, which was changed in the remaster. (It used to just Trip, now you have to roll Athletics to trip with no MAP.)
In PFS, Summoner has to use the new version. In a home game, ask your GM. I know I still let players use the old version since I don't think a change to monster rules was actually intended as a player class nerf.
But anything that isn't reprinted uses the original version with remaster updates for things like traits that were renamed and such. Summoner is actually quite a good PFS class in my experience because so many PFS scenarios value flexibility and the ability to be in two places at once/do two things at the same time can come in REALLY handy at times. (The flip side is that when you're escaping a collapsing ruin and needing to make reflex saves to avoid damage, since you're rolling those twice and taking the worse outcome.)
Is that how PFS handles it?
It seems wrong to nerf the class when it was written with a different version of the monster ability.
IMO, it only makes sense to "lock in" text to the old version until/unless the Summoner class itself gets a remaster chance to change it.
Those auto-trip/grab feats were/are kinda cornerstones of the class' viability, and being such a reliable Athletics dispenser is of the few "unique SMN" things the class has going for it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is that how PFS handles it?
Yes, that's the PFS rule. It impacted a number of things when an option was reprinted and changed significantly. The most dramatic being Oracle Mysteries, where the mystery change was "errata" and you had to use the new version no matter how badly it messed up your character. (It was argued those should be considered "class chassis", where you could still use the old one, but the PFS folks said no. It was a whole thing.)
It seems wrong to nerf the class when it was written with a different version of the monster ability.
IMO, it only makes sense to "lock in" text to the old version until/unless the Summoner class itself gets a remaster chance to change it.
Those auto-trip/grab feats were/are kinda cornerstones of the class' viability, and being such a reliable Athletics dispenser is of the few "unique SMN" things the class has going for it.
Agreed, which is why I don't do it in my home games. I am not given that option in PFS.
I don't think the PFS rule makers intended this specific outcome. They were dealing with a lot of stuff changing and wanted to have something consistent for GMs to work with, which created some unfortunate edge cases like this.
I don't think the PFS rule makers intended this specific outcome.
Curious why.
From what I see, that change to the monster ability which gets applied to the Eidolon ability brings it in line with Slam Down.
On a successful Strike, you make a Trip attack with no additional MAP penalty.
And actually, the Eidolon's ability is slightly better because if you make the Knockdown attack while at a stage of MAP greater than 0, the MAP won't apply to the Athletics check. It would with Slam Down.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think the PFS rule makers intended this specific outcome.Curious why.
It seems pretty unlikely that when they were coming up with how to handle remaster updates in general, "nerf Summoner" was on the list of considerations. Likewise when they were changing the monster ability since that's primarily used by monsters and I doubt how Summoner would be impacted crossed anyone's mind. So that's why I don't think it was intentional.
Course, in the Oracle case their response to cases of characters effectively being broken was basically "too bad, buy a rebuild", so what do I know?
From what I see, that change to the monster ability which gets applied to the Eidolon ability brings it in line with Slam Down.
On a successful Strike, you make a Trip attack with no additional MAP penalty.
And actually, the Eidolon's ability is slightly better because if you make the Knockdown attack while at a stage of MAP greater than 0, the MAP won't apply to the Athletics check. It would with Slam Down.
Except you get it MUCH later (level 10 vs level 2), and you have to start with a single Eidolon attack type to get it, or spend a second feat to get Trip on any of the other attack options.
At the same level as Eidolon gets that, Fighter is getting Crashing Slam and not having to roll the Trip at all. It was closer to being equivalent before the nerf than it is now.
No idea why a mod removed my post, but Tridus covered the follow up arguments.
It's wild to pretend it's not a very real nerf for a class that did *not* need to get hit like that.
Being able to auto-succeed after a hit was rare niche / perk of playing a SMN and being stuck with an eidolon that's incompatible with martial feats.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can play both as two parts of a dynamic duo if that fits your RP but as they say in the summoner’s description, even if they’re friends or feel like equals, the summoner is still the master and the eidolon the slave. So when the eidolon is controlled, the summoner can still be just fine - while if the summoner is controlled, he can force the eidolon to do whatever he wants. So it’s a partnership, true enough, but one is still on top.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've always wanted to try a summoner as my first PF2e character with a specific build that isn't possible in that other d20 fantasy game in that I'd like to have dual characters that play (whether naturally or artifically) differently using the eidolon mechanic similar to "twinned" characters in pop culture like Wily Kit and Wily Kat in the Thundercats or the Wonder Power Twins in the old Justice League cartoons.
This is such a fun concept that I've gone and homebrewed an eidolon for it! Although it's unlikely that you'd get to use homebrew at your table, let alone for your first character, hopefully this could give an idea of how the Summoner could work as a pair of twins.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've always wanted to try a summoner as my first PF2e character with a specific build that isn't possible in that other d20 fantasy game in that I'd like to have dual characters that play (whether naturally or artifically) differently using the eidolon mechanic similar to "twinned" characters in pop culture like Wily Kit and Wily Kat in the Thundercats or the Wonder Power Twins in the old Justice League cartoons.This is such a fun concept that I've gone and homebrewed an eidolon for it! Although it's unlikely that you'd get to use homebrew at your table, let alone for your first character, hopefully this could give an idea of how the Summoner could work as a pair of twins.
I'd allow that homebrew. It is nicely balanced and makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Cool homebrew!
You could even go for an alchemical Rebis type of thing if you take Meld into Eidolon.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've always wanted to try a summoner as my first PF2e character
I'd advise caution here.
Summoner is a complex class to build out, and majorly complex class to play.
I've had the odd luck of only seeing it played by players completely new to Pathfinder 2E every single time I have seen someone play it, four times now. And every one of those players has struggled.
I've seen three of them give up. One of those give up on Pathfinder 2E itself as a result. Granted for one of those players it was just a single session full of expletives shared between him and the GM before he tossed his sheet out and the GM banned the class from that table. The others were a slow burn of a player losing interest in showing up for sessions.
The fourth is in an ongoing game and every time it comes around to his turn, if we're in combat; something goes wrong. I try to cut in and help him sometimes during his turns, but I'm also often trying to talk over other people making annoyed noises when I do so.
I don't know if the player is suffering, but he sure sounds miserable.
I highly recommend getting as much system mastery as you can before playing a summoner. Specifically master actions and both taking and dishing out conditions.
You really want to know, more than any other class, what action you can do. You've got to split them between your trainer and your pokemon... and its messy when you're still trying to learn how things work and what adds up to what where.
I've been playing PF2E since the end of 2022, and I'm thinking I'm just maybe about ready to be able to not mess up the flow of my actions on a summoner. Or at least be aware of it and not get frustrated over making constant mistakes.
In Pathfinder 2E, I strongly advise new players to avoid both summoner and alchemist. Before the remaster I would have also said Oracle.
I know people can master alchemist and make it fun and quick to play if they know how the mechanics work, because it's what I'm playing in one game, and I've seen another player breeze through it.
I assume that if I ever see a player who's already experienced with pathfinder play summoner, I'd see someone play it with fun and no confusion. Everything that makes it confusing is something people naturally pick up with time playing the game - but thrown at you all at once out of the gate with summoner. But so far I've only seen newbies play it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really like the Summoner class. It's the most versatile class in the game in my opinion. It always shines. But it's rather hard to play, too, so many players won't like it much.
I really like the Summoner class. It's the most versatile class in the game in my opinion. It always shines. But it's rather hard to play, too, so many players won't like it much.
Initially I thought so, but after playing with it for a long time, I actually think that this difficulty is a bit overrated.
The big difference between playing the summoner and other classes is basically understanding [url=https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=758]Act Together[/url[. Once you understand how it works, her gameplay simply becomes easier than the gameplay of a standard caster. Because, for example, it's easy for a new player to get lost not knowing what to do with the third action and get frustrated that the character seems weaker than it really is when playing as a caster. But his simply doesn't happen with the summoner because you always have an action to spend with the eidolon. As long as the player doesn't fall into the trap of first focusing on what it's going to do with the eidolon and then deciding what to do with the summoner, something that you quickly notice while playing, in the end the class is simply super efficient in almost everything it does.
And in exploration and recess mode you are literally playing with 2 characters whose only restriction is that they can't be far from each other.
Once you understand how it works, her gameplay simply becomes easier than the gameplay of a standard caster.
Considering the number of "advice" I read in this discussion I simply disagree with, I don't think understanding Act Together is the only tough point in playing a Summoner fine.
For example, understanding how to position your Eidolon so you end up together in AoEs (and not avoiding it, like I read often). How to not use Boost Eidolon. How to not waste your spells and actions on buffing your Eidolon and other useless spells like Protect Companion. And so on.
But I agree with you on one point: It's easier to play an average Summoner than an average caster. But casters are hard to play, too, so it doesn't make Summoner easy to play.
Once you understand how it works, her gameplay simply becomes easier than the gameplay of a standard caster.For example, understanding how to position your Eidolon so you end up together in AoEs (and not avoiding it, like I read often). How to not use Boost Eidolon. How to not waste your spells and actions on buffing your Eidolon and other useless spells like Protect Companion. And so on.
But this is a general need for understanding, every class has this to some degree.
Characters with familiars or companions also need to worry about positioning themselves so as not to put themselves at too much risk (although it is a little different from what happens with a summoner with Protective Bond where the logic is reversed) or when a bard should or should not useI mentioned Act Together because it is a unique feature of the summoner and has its quirks, such as the fact that you and the summoner cannot use 2 activities at the same time in an encounter (because one of you will always receive only one action), something that many people don't see at first glance, but that even so, it is still an advantage to use a Tandem action whenever possible.
And in the case of the summoner, there is a compensation facility, which is the fact that it is the class with the greatest ease in dealing with the action economy. You will practically never find yourself in a situation where you will not have a good use for an action. Other classes go through this situation, especially with new players who are not used to Demoralize or use Aid and end up simply making a third attack that is unlikely to hit, an unnecessary move or simply abandoning the action.
That's why today I don't think the summoner is a bad class for new players, because in the end it doesn't have any major additional complexity (for me it's even simpler than trying to play efficiently with a conjurer) and at the same time it provides enormous flexibility in the economy of actions without needing to do anything too complex or special in the build.
In the end it's the class where the person thinks "I don't know what to do with my remaining actions, so I'll have the summoner/eidolon use them for something useful". I agree that it's still a complex class because it's still a caster, but it already comes with a stupid high flexibility built into the chassis!
In fact, today I think it's more likely that a player who started PF2e with a summoner will end up developing some kind of aversion to playing with other classes because it can't find the same flexibility in their action economy as it has with the summoner.
I appreciate the advice above as I'm not familiar with PF2e as a system so wasn't aware of certain tips (like Runic Body). I do hope that I get to put some of this into practice sometime in the (near) future!
I still prefer to take an alchemist archetype and have the eidolon drink a Drakeheart Mutagen, as it gives the AC benefit of heavy armor with the potency rune bonuses and automatically progresses as you level up.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But this is a general need for understanding, every class has this to some degree.
I think we're both right. We are just not looking at the same degree of mastery of the class. I agree that the Summoner is easier to play honorably than a caster. But it's much harder to master than a standard martial and largely competes with casters. So, is it a simple or complex class? It'll depend on what you want to achieve with it.
But, in my opinion, an average Summoner suffers from the comparison with martials (as most average Summoners will be focused on their Eidolon and as such will take a martial spot in the party). And as such a player will feel the difference with the Fighter next to them much more vividly than the casters in their party. Hence this type of discussions.
although it is a little different from what happens with a summoner with Protective Bond where the logic is reversed
Even without Protective Bond you want to be in AoEs with your Eidolon. But it's a level of understanding of the class most players won't achieve.
That's why today I don't think the summoner is a bad class for new players
A beginner will achieve basic effectiveness quite easily but will suffer from the comparison with the martial next to them rather vividly. And as they won't be able to leverage all the versatility of the class (especially the complexity of having 4 actions and maximizing them), I expect them to be dissapointed with the class, not to like it. But that's just an opinion, and it will also be very player/table dependent. But, from my experience, the first impression a lot of players have with the Summoner is negative: It's complex and not competitive.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course! Because this is a "little bit of both" class not a "best at one thing" class. I think Paizo's decision not to let the class strike twice in a round with full martial strike capability and then cast a top-rank spell in the same round was intentional.
Definitely. But the beginner won't play the casting part of the Summoner and end up with just a subpar martial and nothing else.
It's rather easy to determine when a player understands how to intermingle the Summoner and the Eidolon actions: Do they use Boost Eidolon regurlarly? If they use it nearly all the time then they fail at using the Summoner actions. If they use it rarely then they are certainly taking the full advantage of having both characters act alongside each other.And most of the Summoners I've played with were using Boost Eidolon a lot.
Well, here's your chance. The boards are listening! The con is pretty clear: you must roll two saves and take the worst rather than roll one save. So what's the pro that offsets that?
This has to be understood in a group dynamic. For the opponent, the Eidolon and the Summoner are 2 characters but when it comes to AoE effects they are closer to 1.4 characters (you'll take roughly 40% more damage by rolling your saves twice).
So when the enemy has to target the party with an AoE effect that won't target everyone (otherwise the discussion is moot) you want them to target the Summoner and the Eidolon instead of targetting 2 distinct PCs. The party has one character taking 140% damage instead of 2 characters taking 100% damage. Especially considering that in PF2 single target healing is much more effective (and common) than AoE healing.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've been playing summoners successfully for years and some of the advice in this thread are real head scratchers for me.
As long as the player doesn't fall into the trap of first focusing on what it's going to do with the eidolon and then deciding what to do with the summoner, something that you quickly notice while playing...
How is this a trap exactly?
Even without Protective Bond you want to be in AoEs with your Eidolon. But it's a level of understanding of the class most players won't achieve.
lolwut? Don't you essentially take the worse of the two saves? In what world would anyone want to do that?
Whether or not both the summoner and eidolon are in the AOE is irrelevant. I know the theory is both rolling applies disadvantage at a -5, but in my experience it is mostly irrelevant as neither has great reflex saves maxing out at excellent. Depending on how you shade your stats, the eidolon is likely to have equal dexterity to the summoner. You still only take the damage once. So the most likely outcome regardless of location is full or half damage, a fail or a success. A critical failure or critical success are both pretty rare for a summoner on Reflex saves.
I don't even bother taking protective bond myself as the number of times its relevant is pretty low. I usually build the eidolon to use the reaction for Reactive Strike.
How you build your offensive routine is how you build your summoner. If you are using a short range cantrip with an eidolon attack, then you want to be in range to use your cantrip. The cantrip save range is generally how you position the eidolon and yourself.
Some build eidolons of large size for reach to position behind the primary martial.
If you build up your con, you have a lot of hit points. Summoner is not a soft target like a caster.
My concern with a summoner is whether or not one or the other is in heal range. Summoner is a class that doesn't want to drop. They cannot recover like a common character. A summoner dropping unconscious is a real pain to get back in action quickly.
Even kip up can't help you much to get back into action as a summoner. You absolutely want to avoid going down as a summoner as you don't counter this issue very easily until level 19.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Depending on how you shade your stats, the eidolon is likely to have equal dexterity to the summoner.
If you speak of a Str Eidolon. Dex Eidolons have much higher Dexterity than the Summoner (+3 higher in general).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, here's your chance. The boards are listening! The con is pretty clear: you must roll two saves and take the worst rather than roll one save. So what's the pro that offsets that?This has to be understood in a group dynamic. For the opponent, the Eidolon and the Summoner are 2 characters but when it comes to AoE effects they are closer to 1.4 characters (you'll take roughly 40% more damage by rolling your saves twice).
So when the enemy has to target the party with an AoE effect that won't target everyone (otherwise the discussion is moot) you want them to target the Summoner and the Eidolon instead of targetting 2 distinct PCs. The party has one character taking 140% damage instead of 2 characters taking 100% damage. Especially considering that in PF2 single target healing is much more effective (and common) than AoE healing.
See, this is an awful lot of detail that you didn't put in before that drastically changes the context of the advice. Because in a normal circumstance "you want to have both of you in the AoE" is terrible advice as it makes the save substantially harder. It's also assuming there is nowhere to spread out except to "where all the other players are", which often isn't true. What you're effectively really saying is "don't clump up with all the PCs in order to stay away from your Eidolon."
But in terms of difficulty in general... Summoner is one of the more difficult classes in the game for new players for several reasons:
1. It's got a lot of trap options. Caster Eidolons are bad and the game dangles them out as if they're equal. Every time I see someone take one of those, it leads to a bad time. New players don't have a good way to know this. That's also true of things like feats, where there are some real standouts and some not that.
This isn't a problem for experienced players because they'll know what to build around. But compare to something like Fighter which is much more newbie friendly because unless you do something like tank your Strength on a melee character, it's hard to make a bad Fighter.
2. Very limited spell resources. You need to pick and ration your spells pretty carefully for maximum impact as you just don't get many of them. Compare to something like Oracle where very quickly you wind up with piles of spells and you don't have to manage them nearly as carefully.
3. There's two of you. Two sets of stats, different things each one of you can do, and being in two places at once. This is super useful, but it also means two sheets for a new player to track and more things to have to understand to play. This is harder to do well than any character that only has one thing to track for someone learning the game.
It's a really good class, but people arguing that it's not difficult to play are coming at it from already having experience and system mastery. Tell someone completely new to PF2 to make a Summoner and from experience watching people do it, they've got much higher odds of running into problems than someone doing the same thing with a simpler class.
But this is a general need for understanding, every class has this to some degree.I think we're both right. We are just not looking at the same degree of mastery of the class. I agree that the Summoner is easier to play honorably than a caster. But it's much harder to master than a standard martial and largely competes with casters. So, is it a simple or complex class? It'll depend on what you want to achieve with it.
But, in my opinion, an average Summoner suffers from the comparison with martials (as most average Summoners will be focused on their Eidolon and as such will take a martial spot in the party). And as such a player will feel the difference with the Fighter next to them much more vividly than the casters in their party. Hence this type of discussions.
although it is a little different from what happens with a summoner with Protective Bond where the logic is reversedEven without Protective Bond you want to be in AoEs with your Eidolon. But it's a level of understanding of the class most players won't achieve.
That's why today I don't think the summoner is a bad class for new playersA beginner will achieve basic effectiveness quite easily but will suffer from the comparison with the martial next to them rather vividly. And as they won't be able to leverage all the versatility of the class (especially the complexity of having 4 actions and maximizing them), I expect them to be dissapointed with the class, not to like it. But that's just an opinion, and it will also be very player/table dependent. But, from my experience, the first impression a lot of players have with the Summoner is negative: It's complex and not competitive.
OK, if we were to compare it to the martial, the simplicity of the martial is a much better entry position for new players.
But I still remember my experience with D&D, which was in 3.0 (I started in 3.0 before playing AD&D) and I played a sorcerer. I had played other systems before, but it was my first class in a D20 system and, for the most part, even knowing that it would be a much more complex class to deal with, I wanted to start with a caster and it was a good first experience that I had, to the point that I still enjoy playing systems based on D20.
But if someone told me which class is best for a newcomer to the system, I would still say it would be a martial, but I know that many players will simply do as I did, ignore the recommendation and play with the class that is most attractive to them mechanically and thematically.
Another interesting fact is that I also have the opinion that a player who starts as a summoner may later have a feeling of connection with other classes that also comes from this experience. I still blame the fact that I started with a spontaneous spellcaster for the fact that I didn't like playing with prepared spellcasters, because after I started with the sorcerer I could never play with a prepared spellcaster without feeling "tied down" by the mechanics, and so I have a feeling that something similar would probably happen with a player who starts with the summoner and then plays with other classes, that he would feel that the action economy is too tied down. Just like when I introduced PF2e to friends who hadn't played D20 yet, and when they played D&D 5e sessions, their main comment to me was that the 5e action economy was too tied down, that they couldn't have as much fun as they do with PF2e.
It's because of experiences like this that I say that in theory, some things can seem much more difficult than in practice, and this idea of starting with simplicity often doesn't prove to have a real negative practical effect.
The other fact is that new players are usually not as focused on the difference in efficiency and optimization as more experienced players. Usually their focus is more on the novelty and the fantastic mechanical aspects that the class offers than on whether they are actually extracting all of its potential.
1. It's got a lot of trap options. Caster Eidolons are bad and the game dangles them out as if they're equal. Every time I see someone take one of those, it leads to a bad time. New players don't have a good way to know this. That's also true of things like feats, where there are some real standouts and some not that.
This isn't a problem for experienced players because they'll know what to build around. But compare to something like Fighter which is much more newbie friendly because unless you do something like tank your Strength on a melee character, it's hard to make a bad Fighter.
But the experience I see in practice is exactly the opposite.
Most beginner tables start at level 1. So at this level, this is what I usually see them do:
Martials like fighters and barbarians: Stride, Strike, Strike, Strike, Strike...
Casters: Stride if necessary, cast all 2-3 spell slots they have, and switch to one cantrip per round.
So what happens is that I see many martials simply using Strike with the third action to try to get a 20 in most cases, and casters, either to save spellslots or because they've already run out, casting saving throw spells, because attack spells when they fail make them lose the entire turn with a terrible feeling of wasted time, and eventually using Stride to keep as much distance as possible.
Then I see a player playing with a summoner in a party like this with all the new players, and it quickly tries to use Electric Arc and Strike with the Eidolon and notices almost instantly from the damage it caused by landing a Strike and an EA that it is doing better alone than the martial and the caster are doing together (and in fact he is because the players still don't understand the potential of the system and its mechanics).
As for the eidolon caster problem, this only exists on paper and not in practice. During the character build the player already realizes that there is no eidolon caster in practice, at most there is the fey eidolon that has 2 cantrips at level 1 and that will only be able to cast some non-cantrip spell at level 7. The player quickly realizes that there is no eidolon caster, at most there is a hybrid eidolon that hits and also casts. I simply haven't seen any player have this frustration in practice because they already realize that eidolons are terrible casters before even playing. They doesn't complain about this in the game but in the building time when they are choosing their options.
2. Very limited spell resources. You need to pick and ration your spells pretty carefully for maximum impact as you just don't get many of them. Compare to something like Oracle where very quickly you wind up with piles of spells and you don't have to manage them nearly as carefully.
This is hardly the experience that a beginning player sees.
What beginning players see (including some experienced ones coming from 5e) are cantrips and spells as a kind of special attack to use occasionally, when not to heal.
What the beginning player sees is:
I can start with a martial and beat people until they burst, or I can start with a wizard and cast 4 spells and then keep casting cantrips and at higher levels I will have a bunch of different spells to cast or I can start with a summoner and start with 1 spell, but still have a bunch of cantrips and a creature under my control that will beat people like a martial.
And in a way this is not wrong. Some may see the potential of spells at higher levels, but what the player who wants to play as a summoner sees is "yes I cast fewer spells at higher levels, but I have an eidolon to fight with me!" and he is not wrong and what they will experience at the beginning of the game will probably be exactly that.
Even the Oracle falls into a similar situation, understanding and finding a good combination of cursebound feats and focus spells that for the most part will not work at level 1, otherwise there are 3 spell slots and cantrips, for an inexperienced player whose first impressions will be to cast cantrips and spells from the divine tradition (which at the first level is not a good experience) and maybe 1 cursebound that the enemy becomes immune to after use or that is used in the initiative.
Maybe. Depends on the opportunity cost of a different use of 1a and the how you value an auto-gain vs. some alternative % chance to affect. Demoralize, for instance, is great on a Cha caster. But if I think the opponent has a really good save against it and my Eidolon's got 3 damage dice? Or what if I didn't take Intimidating Glare and there's a language barrier? Maybe not. Do I really want to take a <=30% chance of inflicting a -1 condition (and a >=70% chance of doing nothing) over 6 damage?
If you can use Boost Eidolon then most of the time you can use another action that will boost your damage much more.
Boost Eidolon + Strike < Strike + StrikeBoost Eidolon + Strike + Strike < Electric Arc + Strike
Boost Eidolon is extremely circumstantial and doesn't depend on opportunity cost but on your inability to use something else (like if your Summoner is 100ft. away from the fight).
If someone went with a Str eidolon then the eidolon is likely going to be close in with the martial.
And make sure to have your Summoner as close as possible from your Eidolon. Obviously, not on the front line because it's not its position, I'm not saying that you must play badly. But for example, if the Eidolon is on the left flank put yourself on the left flank. When the party chooses it's formation, make sure to be close to your Eidolon and don't let another character take your "spot". This is the exact opposite of what most players think, trying to put themselves as far as possible from their Eidolon (on the right flank when the Eidolon is on the left flank, for example).
3. There's two of you. Two sets of stats, different things each one of you can do, and being in two places at once. This is super useful, but it also means two sheets for a new player to track and more things to have to understand to play. This is harder to do well than any character that only has one thing to track for someone learning the game.
It's a really good class, but people arguing that it's not difficult to play are coming at it from already having experience and system mastery. Tell someone completely new to PF2 to make a Summoner and from experience watching people do it, they've got much higher odds of running into problems than someone doing the same thing with a simpler class.
Honestly, it's not!
This is the impression that people who have never played a summoner think they'll have to play with it, but it doesn't happen in practice. You even have 2 "characters" with 2 different sets of attributes that probably require another sheet to make it easier to write down, but in practice the summoner shares its skills (with values based on his attributes), uses its HP, its actions and its feat slots. In the end, it's very easy to set up, to the point that some people don't even get a second sheet, they write down the skill modifiers side by side, one side representing the summoner and the other the eidolon (same thing for perception and saves and AC) and the eidolon's attack modifiers on the summoner's own sheet and the attributes in one of the note fields.
In practice, the eidolon has very little customization, it doesn't use equipment, it hardly casts spells and even though it has 2 tokens to move, its set of actions is still the same as the summoner's and anyone who wants to play with one already expects to control 2 tokens. Anyone who makes a companion token already does this.
That's the point I made, people who have never played summoner think it's much harder than it actually is, and those who are willing to play discover very quickly that it's much easier and more flexible and even powerful than they imagined.
As long as the player doesn't fall into the trap of first focusing on what it's going to do with the eidolon and then deciding what to do with the summoner, something that you quickly notice while playing...How is this a trap exactly?
Because one of the mistakes and frustrations I've seen players make the most with the summoner is to build the entire build around the eidolon and forget about the summoner, and then discover that evolution feats alone aren't enough.
This is where the greatest difficulty and complexity of the summoner lies in my opinion. The fact that the player needs to create a build that works considering each of the 2 and how to make them help each other by compensating for each other's limitations and seizing opportunities that each of them can seize individually in parallel with the other.
Almost all cases of frustration I've encountered have fallen on this. Players who built the summoner around the eidolon with evolution feats and ignored or minimized the summoner's capabilities and then complained that the eidolon's experience was inferior to that of an equivalent martial and that they didn't have access to archetype feats or who focused on the summoner and ignored or minimized the eidolon and then complained that the summoner isn't as good as a full caster (the latter is much rarer and just theoretical to me, I've never seen it in practice because normally casters players understand eidolon/summoner balance better and don't usually fall into this trap).
My concern with a summoner is whether or not one or the other is in heal range. Summoner is a class that doesn't want to drop. They cannot recover like a common character. A summoner dropping unconscious is a real pain to get back in action quickly.
Even kip up can't help you much to get back into action as a summoner. You absolutely want to avoid going down as a summoner as you don't counter this issue very easily until level 19.
I have to agree with this point, this is one of the major disadvantages of the summoner. Falling unconscious with it is worse than falling unconscious with a martial with 2 weapons or a weapon and shield. But it still has some advantages.
Falling unconscious with a martial without the kip up means having to use an action to get up and another to pick up your dropped weapon, if you have another weapon or a shield, it is another action to pick it up and your turn is over.
When a caster falls unconscious, it only has to worry about this if it is holding a staff, wand or consumable.
The summoner necessarily has to spend 3 actions to manifest the eidolon again, and next to it, in addition to having to get up, which means it can spend up to 2 rounds without having the eidolon on the field again and will probably still have to move it to the frontline, it is quite punishing!
That said, in several cases where this is an advantage. It's not uncommon for the summoner to be far away from enemies when they fall unconscious, which also means that there's usually no one to use reactions on you when you need to get up without the kip up. Which is also a plus for when you still need to heal yourself even more and don't want anyone hitting you in the meantime (especially with reactions). You'll still need to spend 3 actions to put the eidolon back into combat and move it to the frontline, but you'll be back in a much safer situation; the problem is that your allies will have to endure without you for all this time.
So it's an extra concern that you have as a summoner to not let yourself fall easily (not that anyone wants to, but with the summoner it's more annoying).
Some feats help lessen the impact of this, like Reactive Dismissal, which helps prevent mainly unconsciousness from unexpected critical hits. You'll still be without the eidolon for 2 rounds, but it's still better than falling unconscious and then having to spend a full round manifesting the eidolon again in the same way after being healed. You can at least stay awakened and heal yourself in peace before manifesting it again.
Summoner's Call is also a good reaction, but it doesn't reduce damage, but it does take the eidolon away to avoid further damage and thus prevent you from falling unconscious due to the next attacks and you don't have to manifest it again.
However, the best way is still to ensure that you always have enough HP and your action economy with Act Together helps a lot in this, as it allows you to heal yourself while your eidolon continues to fight.
3. There's two of you. Two sets of stats, different things each one of you can do, and being in two places at once. This is super useful, but it also means two sheets for a new player to track and more things to have to understand to play. This is harder to do well than any character that only has one thing to track for someone learning the game.For this one, at least, things like Foundry are making life easier. Click the roll and it figures out all - well, most of - the relevant adds.
I just hope the presence of such tech doesn't make RPG designers make their systems overly complicated. Fingers crossed the next 10 years won't see new tabletop RPGs which are too complicated to play using pen, paper, and actual table.
I don't think it will happen.
The systems I've been following, which are Daggerheart and DC20, despite taking foundry and other VTTs into consideration, are still primarily designed to be played on paper. In fact, they are even simpler than PF2e so far, at least in terms of mechanics.
The other line of new systems that I see are systems with a certain focus on old school that are precisely extremely focused on simplicity and are practically a rejection of the use of more complex mechanics and technologies like VTTs.
And make sure to have your Summoner as close as possible from your Eidolon. Obviously, not on the front line because it's not its position, I'm not saying that you must play badly. But for example, if the Eidolon is on the left flank put yourself on the left flank. When the party chooses it's formation, make sure to be close to your Eidolon and don't let another character take your "spot". This is the exact opposite of what most players think, trying to put themselves as far as possible from their Eidolon (on the right flank when the Eidolon is on the left flank, for example).
But why?
If you can use Boost Eidolon then most of the time you can use another action that will boost your damage much more.
Boost Eidolon + Strike < Strike + Strike
Boost Eidolon + Strike + Strike < Electric Arc + Strike
Boost Eidolon is extremely circumstantial and doesn't depend on opportunity cost but on your inability to use something else (like if your Summoner is 100ft. away from the fight).
Against strong enemies, I tend to prefer using Electric Arc + Boost Eidolon + Eidolon's Strike rather than Electric Arc + Eidolon's Strike + Eidolon's Strike with MAP-5.
However, I agree that Boost Eidolon is more situational than many people think. For me, it's usually only worth it when you can't use something better for some reason that strongly prevents you from using a 2-action spell.
And make sure to have your Summoner as close as possible from your Eidolon. Obviously, not on the front line because it's not its position, I'm not saying that you must play badly. But for example, if the Eidolon is on the left flank put yourself on the left flank. When the party chooses it's formation, make sure to be close to your Eidolon and don't let another character take your "spot". This is the exact opposite of what most players think, trying to put themselves as far as possible from their Eidolon (on the right flank when the Eidolon is on the left flank, for example).But why?
I don't know if this is the answer SuperBidi would give, but for me it's because you have to consider that you need to be within 30ft of your eidolon and your enemies. This is the range of most of your spells and being too far to this range means that you may eventually have to spend an action to move back to get them within range.
I usually fight the summoner about 15-25ft from the enemies closest to the eidolon (it depends on the situation and the enemies' reach). This even allows some enemies to try to go after the summoner, but it usually also means that they will take some reactions from the eidolon and possibly from other players as well so they usually doesn't insistis in this tactic after take some Reactive Strikes.
Depending on how you shade your stats, the eidolon is likely to have equal dexterity to the summoner.If you speak of a Str Eidolon. Dex Eidolons have much higher Dexterity than the Summoner (+3 higher in general).
Even Str based eidolons will have a higher stat. You can get Str based eidolons that end with a 20 Dex.
If a dex-based eidolon maxes at 24, then they will have a 3 point difference until level 17. A 3 point difference at high level can be countered by the summoner taking Canny Acumen to get Master Reflex saves, which the Eidolon cannot currently do. So usually that difference will be 1 point at level 20 unless for some reason the Summoner takes Perception instead of Dex.
The summoner has Master Fort and Will, so Dex is the only save they need to get better at.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Whether or not you make a str or dex based eidolon is based on party composition and what roles you're filling.
If you're the primary trip target or Athletics, then you want a Str based eidolon likely with the Skill feats to pick up Titan Wrestler.
If you're not primary athletics or tripper, then you can do Dex-based. I know Super Bidi likes the ranged eidolon attack. I've found it is too short myself and d4 really hurts its usability at the higher levels.
I've tried to make a caster eidolon. It's easier now with stats not adding to spell damage. It's still too limited for my taste. It mostly adds some spells to your repertoire of a lower level that are cast by the eidolon instead of you.
Though what I wanted to test was battle forms on the eidolon to boost its damage. The eidolon casting a battle form on itself is one of the few really nice uses for battleform in my opinion. So far I haven't played the character to field test what that looks like.
It could be pretty cool if they made a summoner that could pick up a focus spells allowing them to change their eidolon into various forms using a focus point like the Druid's Untamed Shift line of feats.
Then you could construct an eidolon that at least for short periods of time would feel like the creature it is representing.
That would be a fun line of feats for a summoner really letting them use battle forms to customize the eidolon.
Depending on how you shade your stats, the eidolon is likely to have equal dexterity to the summoner.If you speak of a Str Eidolon. Dex Eidolons have much higher Dexterity than the Summoner (+3 higher in general).
Shouldn't the summoner's second highest stat be Dex given that they have no armor proficiencies?
My instinct on making one would be to go +3 Dex, +1 Con, +4 Cha, and the remaining stat depending.
That puts a dex pokemon at only 1 above the caster.
But I've not played the class. I've only seen people try various different things in games I've been a player in and give up in frustration. I'm still waiting to see a player try one in a game I run. So all my build thinking exists in a vacuum of guesses as to what was going wrong with other players.