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So, while browsing the forums I came across a decade old thread about the lethality of Pathfinder society, and that got me wondering about how commonly other play groups see a PC die in society play.
In my personal experience, I've played in 137 Pathfinder society games. Most of those have been scenarios, but there are 4 Bounties/1 XP quests and maybe a dozen 2 xp quests. So estimate 110 scenarios. In that time, I've witnessed two PC deaths (neither one my own). In the first case, a PC was dragged 60 feet under the water by a brine shark and then reduced to 0 hp, and while they might have been recoverable, the novice mistake of spending a hero point to re-roll a failed death check, which then became a critical failure and sent the character from Dying 2 to Dead. The second case was a phantasmal killer critical failure after a hazard had already drained the player of hero points. That's a fatality rate of about 1.8%. What about you guys?
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Venture-Captain, New Zealand—Christchurch
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Have not yet seen a PC die in PFS2, and have not killed one as a GM. And that makes me happy, because from my perspective PC death is not very fun.
(In some ways it's worse when a character dies in an AP, ironically. It creates an issue for the player, but a bigger issue for the GM. And yet GMs don't necessarily realize this...)
Had a couple of close calls, on both sides of the table, and those are far more fun than actual PC deaths.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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I have, I think a bit over 60 scenarios GM'd and played on a rough guesstimate. During those, I know my investigator has died twice, once on lvl 8, once on lvl 9, and I think a different character of mine died in a scenario, but it got retconned because there was some sort of mix up (accidentally used wrong scaling and run high tier instead of low tier, or something similar).
I've killed one actual PC, I've had two pregens die at my table in different scenarios (they were filling up the table that had just 3 players, so no consequences for any players).
One 1st season scenario I GM'd would have ended in a TPK, but I had a misunderstanding about how shields work and because of it, the last surviving party member (druid) stood standing and managed to cast heal, reviving the whole team, and turned the tide of the battle. Without it, it would have been a TPK.
The one PC I killed was also almost a TPK - whole party was on the ground, dying or stabile, except for the last PC who killed the boss, and managed to save... almost everyone, before people bled to death.
As a player, I had a similar experience in a different 1st season scenario, where the whole party was dying except the fighter, who managed to kill the boss at the last moment. That time, they managed to revive the whole party though, despite some really, really grievous wounds >.>
Oooh, and I wasn't personally part of that table, but we had 2 tables run the same scenario at the same time, from year 2 I think - one of them breezed through it (high tier), one of them took a TPK in the first encounter.
I've come close to a TPK in an awful scenario.
The adventure is about acquiring boons to either smooth things over with the final boss or fight him more easily. We went for the peace boons. Unfortunately, half the peace boons didn't work because we learned too late they only give circumstance bonuses, which don't stack.
Also, the final boss, his minions, and the giant bottomless pit he's flying over made for an extreme encounter. All the boss did was fly and cast fireball. Half of us had no safe way to attack the boss (because of the arena), and half of us had a nero-zero chance of hitting the boss either way. GM let us run away because this adventure is just terrible.
Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Bellevue
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... the novice mistake of spending a hero point to re-roll a failed death check, which then became a critical failure and sent the character from Dying 2 to Dead.
Was there a reason the player didn't turn in all hero points to just end the dying condition. As a GM, I'd make sure the player knew that was a option.
I've died once in play (I got better, ACP for the Raise Dead.) We were playing a 7-10 with only three players. My bard was the tank. Never again on that.
I've killed one PC. A crit failed save (Hero point didn't help) on a Death effect spell (Vampiric Touch). At least it was someone playing a pre-gen.
I'm in the 180 range (scenarios GM'd) and at least over 100 scenarios as a player.
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I have 1548 PFS2 xp, plus a half dozen scenarios GMs for no credit.
Times I can remember a death:
3 Player table + Kyra pregen. PFS2 was very new, PCs were 3 friends, I think teens. All playing pretty ineffective goblins. I choose to attack and kill a downed Kyra pregen to avoid TPKing the group.
Massive damage on a crit (pre FAQ fix) killed a level 1 elven wizard.
A downed character was woken up in melee with single digits against a soulbound doll in its space. Turns out Vampiric Touch has the death trait.
I've seen a character with 1 hero point get hit by a nasty effect, critically fail their save, re-roll and critically fail again. Didn't immediately get healed and nat 1ed the death save and died.
As a player I was part of a TPK in a 5-8. (4 deaths)
Twice I've seen a Pregen bleed out (I think once as a player and once as a GM), when a player very reasonably choose to save a PC instead.
I've been extremely close to a TPK on both ends a few times as well but those didn't result in any deaths. I've seen a handful of times where massive damage would have killed a lvl 1 PC (including myself) if that hadn't been fixed.
I've got AP credit and quests/bounties we'll assume those average out, so out of about 385 PFS sessions, I've seen 9 deaths (6 PCs, and 3 Iconics).
That's about 1 death per 40 tables, (or assuming 5 players, 1 death per 200 seats).
If we just look at tables with deaths, that's 6 or death per 64 tables/ or per 320 seats.
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I was part of a 3rd level party that was TPKd once. I don't remember dying any other time (PF2).
RE: Thick as Thieves. My party talked our way out of the fight.
As to it being a terrible scenario, my only complaint would be that there were several instances where Diplomacy was the only usable skill. Which is really narrow.
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... the novice mistake of spending a hero point to re-roll a failed death check, which then became a critical failure and sent the character from Dying 2 to Dead.Was there a reason the player didn't turn in all hero points to just end the dying condition. As a GM, I'd make sure the player knew that was a option.
I've died once in play (I got better, ACP for the Raise Dead.) We were playing a 7-10 with only three players. My bard was the tank. Never again on that.
I've killed one PC. A crit failed save (Hero point didn't help) on a Death effect spell (Vampiric Touch). At least it was someone playing a pre-gen.
I'm in the 180 range (scenarios GM'd) and at least over 100 scenarios as a player.
Con Fatigue and players moving too fast, if I had to guess.
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Venture-Captain, New Zealand—Christchurch
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I've come close to a TPK in an awful scenario.
** spoiler omitted **
...As an aside, this is a good example of "the GM could have made different choices to make the game more fun."
Just because one can kite the players indefinitely, doesn't mean one should. From my perspective, a GM can make that fight feel difficult without making it effectively impossible (and a potential TPK). But that's the GM's choice (or responsibility).
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I've come close to a TPK in an awful scenario.
** spoiler omitted **
...As an aside, this is a good example of "the GM could have made different choices to make the game more fun."
Just because one can kite the players indefinitely, doesn't mean one should. From my perspective, a GM can make that fight feel difficult without making it effectively impossible (and a potential TPK). But that's the GM's choice (or responsibility).
Actually, the GM told us after the session that he did deviate from the written tactics for a better experience.
Oh, and I forgot to mention there were about 5 encounters earlier in the day (I think 1 complex hazard, 2 fights, 1 chase scene, and 1 surprise underwater fight) so we had no resources left for the extreme fight.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I have mostly low-level experience in PFS2, but I've played in several APs now that went to high level, and I've only encountered one PC death, and that was against a double crit failed Phantasmal Killer. Conversely, deaths in PFS1 weren't exactly common, but at least a realistic thing to happen to you, I feel. Nearly all of my Society characters have died at least once, or at least half of them.
I've seen plenty of people go down, and back up again (in both editions). It's just that the removal of "negative CON = death" makes survival so much easier. So often you just accidentally get crit, or take an unlucky blow in PF1 that just leaves you at an unfortunate amount of HP.
I'd say PFS2 isn't necessarily less deadly, it's just easier to recover from a dying condition.
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Venture-Captain, New Zealand—Christchurch
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I've come close to a TPK in an awful scenario.
** spoiler omitted **
...As an aside, this is a good example of "the GM could have made different choices to make the game more fun."
Just because one can kite the players indefinitely, doesn't mean one should. From my perspective, a GM can make that fight feel difficult without making it effectively impossible (and a potential TPK). But that's the GM's choice (or responsibility).
Actually, the GM told us after the session that he did deviate from the written tactics for a better experience.
** spoiler omitted **
The tactics you described are not written anywhere in the scenario, so that would have been entirely the GM's choice. The only tactical guidance written into the scenario is for the end of the fight.
I guess this is a good example of why I get frustrated. I can only imagine how the writers and devs feel about it.
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I haven't GMed PFS 2e (yet), but I've played enough to currently have a character of almost every level from 10 down. I don't recall any deaths at tables I've played at (with the possible exception of a pregen or two?), but I have definitely had a few scenarios where it as a very close thing, and most of my characters have been knocked unconscious at some point (occasionally in multiple fights per adventure).
Compared to 1E, I'd say that it's easier to inflict (and take) damage because the math is designed to prevent the creation of characters who always hit or can never be hit. But it's harder to kill someone outright. Healing is much easier between fights, thanks to Treat Wounds, consumables, certain focus spells, etc., which makes in-combat healing less critical to survival. However, a group without a dedicated healer (magical, mundane, or both) will have a harder time finishing fights and recovering from them. My wife (who does GM a lot) is of the opinion that in-combat healing is most essential at very low levels (where a lucky critical hit can take you from full HP to dying 2 in one hit) and at very high levels (10+, where the amount of damage possible can swing a fight quickly). And I know she has seen some character deaths at tables she's played at (the PC went to 0 while taking persistent damage, that sort of thing), but I'm not sure how many, or whether she's seen it as a GM, too.
I've come close to a TPK in an awful scenario.
** spoiler omitted **
...As an aside, this is a good example of "the GM could have made different choices to make the game more fun."
Just because one can kite the players indefinitely, doesn't mean one should. From my perspective, a GM can make that fight feel difficult without making it effectively impossible (and a potential TPK). But that's the GM's choice (or responsibility).
Actually, the GM told us after the session that he did deviate from the written tactics for a better experience.
** spoiler omitted **
The tactics you described are not written anywhere in the scenario, so that would have been entirely the GM's choice. The only tactical guidance written into the scenario is for the end of the fight.
I guess this is a good example of why I get frustrated. I can only imagine how the writers and devs feel about it.
Maybe I misremembered the GM's exact words, then. He may have just said he saw that the boss had that spell and chose not to use it since it was bad enough that the boss was so high level.
If there really is no written set of tactics to follow, then I can't fault the GM to using tactics that make sense for the monster.
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Venture-Captain, New Zealand—Christchurch
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If there really is no written set of tactics to follow, then I can't fault the GM to using tactics that make sense for the monster.
Well, to an extent I get that, but I get frustrated when people fault the scenario for what is ultimately a GM's choice.
I probably could have TPKed my players in that scenario, too, by doing what your GM chose to do. And I had another situation I recall in which I likely could have TPKed my players (high AC monster with a massive breath weapon).
Those were the "optimal" tactics. But there's no rule which states a GM must use optimal tactics.
I chose not to, because it wouldn't have been fun for my players, or for me.
Did the opponent still feel powerful? Yes. Did they still have to work for the win? Yes, absolutely. But to bring it back on topic, close calls feel much more rewarding, to me, and make better stories and better memories.
I once did try to kill a PFS PC, because it made sense for story reasons. And she nearly died, and we all enjoyed it. But instead the PC survived three death-effect spells and we got an epic tale out of it.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Those were the "optimal" tactics. But there's no rule which states a GM must use optimal tactics.
I chose not to, because it wouldn't have been fun for my players, or for me.
Playing "optimal tactics" or not is up to the GM. Some GMs prefer to present it as a realistic situation, where sometimes things don't go in the PC's favour. The enemy wants to survive and tries their best to do so, even if it comes at the expense of the players' enjoyment. I personally roll the other way and play enemies suboptimal at times so the players have a good time and aren't frustrated. But that does mean they feel cheated sometimes.
Whether you play hardball or not should be discussed beforehand. Which isn't always possible in Society play, but if you have regular GMs, you probably know what to expect from them.
umopapisdnupsidedown, you have the scenario, right? Could you confirm a few things in a spoiler block?
What enemies are in that encounter for six players with 18 challenge points? I think the GM told us we had to fight the high-tier version because we had too many players.
How difficult are the preceding fights? If they were low-threat, I'd be more forgiving toward the scenario, but they certainly felt like moderate fights.
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The lack of ground isn't explicitly listed as a hazard or even described in detail.
"The wind grows more intense as a sliver of the Plane of Air
pierces the barrier between worlds, seeming to eat through
the ground in front of it. Shurrizih floats atop the newly
opened abyss, a nasty smile on his face."
The encounter is Severe, with a 7+4 at subtier 5-6 which for a party of 4x5 level characters is 110 (Severe). Challenge Point Scaling seems reasonable.
All that said, a Severe Encounter with potentially unaccounted for terrain advantage could easily be Extreme.
(At 5-6, unadjusted) earlier encounters with difficulties listed are:
1) a single Hazard 7 (80xp, listed as Moderate,)
2) 2 level 4 Creatures (60xp, listed as Low)
3) 2 level 3, 1 level 5 creature (80xp, listed as Moderate)
4) 2 level 5 Hazards (80xp, listed as Trivial) <My experience is that Trivial is correct, despite the pair of level 5 hazards>
** spoiler omitted **
Anyway, we didn't have four characters of 5th level. We had three characters of 5th level, two characters of 6th level, and one character of 8th level. We totaled 18 challenge points across 6 characters. I want to know what the enemy layout for that is. Because I seem to recall fighting two 5th-level enemies and one 9th-level enemy, and the more I think about it, the less right that sounds.
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To avoid derailing this thread further. Moved further answers about Thick as Thieves to the GM Thread on it. Where spoilers and behind the scenes discussion is normal etc.
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I've been a part of 2 TPKs, one involving everyone on the party dying, one involving one person in the party dying. I've also been in a party where we nearly TPK'd, with 2 members of the party dying. All of them involved myself and one other party member (they died in all 3 scenarios) and involving the same GM. Outside of that, there have been a few close calls, but nothing on that level, and I've played a LOT over the last two or so years.
I've run five entire APs and only had one character die, except in the version of the beginner box where they want to teach you about dying mechanics. I've maybe done 20 scenarios from PFS and never seen anyone die in any of those.
What version of the Beginner Box are you referring to? I wasn't aware they even made another version (aside from the remaster which gave the final boss a much needed nerf).
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I have seen 2 deaths in PFS -- both were crits against a level 1 PC that inflicted massive damage.
I came extremely close to GMing a TPK at a convention in 6-01. In the final fight, the party can end up fighting a crying cicada with a party of all or mostly level 1 characters. It can inflict DC19 poison on the entire party with 1 action, which is an extremely tough save for characters of that level -- and as usual the persistent nature of the damage can really accellerate death. It came down to one party member making a tough save (15+ on the die), otherwise everyone would have died.
Apparently, there's an adventure path
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I remember that AP, might be that exact case, where several quite spicy fights were chained together. GM was lenient on us, otherwise that would've been a TPK.
Not 100% sure, but I believe Society scenarios are designed to be a a little bit easier than APs, to lower the barrier to entry. Plus, the shorter nature of scenarios means they're easier to playtest than an entire AP.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I remember that AP, might be that exact case, where several quite spicy fights were chained together. GM was lenient on us, otherwise that would've been a TPK.
** spoiler omitted **
Ah, found it! And of course, just missed the edit window.
Not sure if that's the encounter you were referencing, but it certainly was a gauntlet for us. Basically, we fled from one encounter, accidentally pulled the next one, and wanted to barricade ourselves somewhere, where something even nastier attacked us from the other side.
There's a Foundry module for converting adventure PDFs into Foundry, but there seems to be a glitch regarding Troubles in Otari. One encounter is meant to contain three level -1 fiery rats to act as PL-4 lackeys, acting as backup in a severe But the Foundry module misreads these rats as level 3 Cinder Rats, which are PL+0. Any GM that doesn't notice this will likely TPK the party, but thanks to PF2e's accurate encounter building, this is very easy to notice.
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I had one of my characters die in Lions of Katapesh, where the party made the hard roll, that makes things harder.
I've think I've killed two characters in about 200-ish PFS sessions.
In all PFS cases people had ACP to undo the death.
I've had three character deaths in my AP groups. (slightly higher rate compared to PFS, my players often play more aggressive in APs with pushing their luck than they do in PFS tables). All there AP deaths were "solved" via reincarnate.
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Venture-Captain, New Zealand—Christchurch
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I played a 3-6 that in the final fight it could turn very ugly very quick. The gm said it was his third time running it. He said first time was a tpk, second time 2 characters died and the time i played, we had one character go down twice and two players go down once (5 players in max low tier)
Yeah I have an inkling of which scenario you are referencing here. If it's the one I'm thinking of, we only very narrowly avoided a TPK when I played it, and I know at least one GM for whom that scenario is the only time they've killed a PFS PC (might even have been a TPK). It's a great scenario, but very nasty.
I just finished another that was a near-TPK. Had the dice gone poorly it would have ended in TPK. I'm very reluctant to ever run that one.
And this reminds me of a series 1 quest that almost ended with 2-3 dead PCs (at least one escaped so not technically a TPK). My character stuck around and on literally the last roll before he died managed to kill the thing. Otherwise it would have been 3 dead PCs. Series 1 quests are pretty hardcore.
Just had my first PFS death. We were up against a lich, and the fighter (level 11) with reach and two Reactive Strikes ran up to the lich to try and shut down his spells. He failed to disrupt the lich, who used dominate on the fighter. The fighter then turned around and cornered and curbstomped my wizard (level 9) and the druid (level 10) while our kineticist (level 11) was preoccupied with every other enemy in the encounter. Then the lich finished the casters off with vampiric exanguination.
Then the kineticist escaped. The fighter couldn't succeed on his repeat save until after us casters were dead. He barely avoided being disintegrated and escaped as well.
Venture-Agent, Ohio—Columbus
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I had nearly the same combat play out for that encounter, except a caster was able to roll a 19 to dispel the dominate on about the 3rd round, and we limped into a win after that. It was brutal. The fighter needed a 20 on his save to escape the dominate.
Every other run of that scenario I've heard of was a cakewalk because the PCs swarmed the caster first. Initiative has a HUGE impact on that encounter.
The fight was also using an abridged version of the mythic rules, and the lich was commensurately given mythic powers of its own. We also had a bunch of actions available that used Mythic Points, but since controlled gives control of all your actions to the controller, that's not very useful for making the repeat save. But I think the GM was erroneously allowing the fighter to use his free action to reroll his saves with mythic proficiency, and he STILL couldn't escape after rolling about eight times.