| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even spellcheck doesn't recognize misotheism and who knows what "acknowledge exist, but ignore-ism" is called, so Paizo went with the closest common category.
According to wikipedia the term would be Alatrism.
Alatrism or alatry (Greek: from the privative ἀ- + λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of one or more gods, but with a deliberate lack of worship of any deity. Typically, it includes the belief that religious rituals have no supernatural significance and that gods ignore all prayers and worship.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Alatrism or alatry (Greek: from the privative ἀ- + λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of one or more gods, but with a deliberate lack of worship of any deity. Typically, it includes the belief that religious rituals have no supernatural significance and that gods ignore all prayers and worship.
Of course the Greeks have a term for it!
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Of course the Greeks have a term for it!Alatrism or alatry (Greek: from the privative ἀ- + λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of one or more gods, but with a deliberate lack of worship of any deity. Typically, it includes the belief that religious rituals have no supernatural significance and that gods ignore all prayers and worship.
Oh, those Greeks and their love of being all, "You don't have a word for it? Such silly little uncultured barbarians!"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, those Greeks and their love of being all, "You don't have a word for it? Such silly little uncultured barbarians!"Of course the Greeks have a term for it!Alatrism or alatry (Greek: from the privative ἀ- + λατρεία (latreia) = worship) is the recognition of the existence of one or more gods, but with a deliberate lack of worship of any deity. Typically, it includes the belief that religious rituals have no supernatural significance and that gods ignore all prayers and worship.
On first skim I thought when you wrote "their love" you were going to talk about them having four words for love to our one. That alone makes us uncultured barbarians in comparison.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As this thread is about the Laws of Mortality which govern the anti-theistic/religion oppressing nation of Rhadoum it should be noted that not all atheists like Rhadoum whose laws explictly oppress religion and ban it all within their borders, including good religions like Desna, Shelyn, Sarenrae, Caydan Caillian, all Empyreal lords, Millani, and so many others. They don't just want to live and let live, but the governmnt of Rahadoum cracksdown on religious people of all stripes from Asmodus followers to Shelyn followers.
Thing is not all Atheists or Alatrists if we want to be technical are like this. The Prophets of Kallistrade have a number of atheists in their ranks, as well as faithful since that philosophy is a non-theistic philosophy. Likewise in Bachunan in Tian Xia, another land where atheists are common don't seem to hate religion considering that the current government has lossened things upp and a number of older traditions have flourished alongside atheism.
There is also the Pyschopomp usher Phlegyas who is there to offer respite to atheists. She knows it is shocking for them and helps them along which I like. but then again I am biased as I love all the Ushers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Phlegyas also guarantees that there's another class of "atheists" - specifically people who followed a God and left that flock for whatever reason (excommunication, losing one's faith, etc.) who never picked up another religion. Obviously you wouldn't want to assign someone to a divine realm when that person is specifically at odds with that deity.
But there's also another afterlife available for those people (and presumably others)- become Psychopomps.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As this thread is about the Laws of Mortality which govern the anti-theistic/religion oppressing nation of Rhadoum it should be noted that not all atheists like Rhadoum whose laws explictly oppress religion and ban it all within their borders, including good religions like Desna, Shelyn, Sarenrae, Caydan Caillian, all Empyreal lords, Milani, and so many others. They don't just want to live and let live, but the governmnt of Rahadoum cracksdown on religious people of all stripes from Asmodus followers to Shelyn followers.
Yeah, not all Golarion atheists are misotheists, but certainly those from Rahadoum are--or at least raised into that opinion, whether the average person actually hates the divine or merely doesn't care for them. Even so, I still expect the average Rahadoumi misotheist to pass through judgement just fine, since it seems to me that they might regard Pharasma (they even meet her personally) as just another person in position of authority doing a job, much like many such entities have been in their lives. There would certainly be those diehard opposed to the system and any deity itself, but I wouldn't expect that to be a majority opinion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I wouldn't say everybody in Rahadoum is a misotheist, it's just that this is the official policy of the state. Most people who actually live in Rahadoum likely fall into the Irreligious category, since they have less reason to think about religion because they live in a place where it's largely absent.
Like Rahadoumi academic institutions are making significant progress in medicine, alchemy, architecture, and various sciences so they're not spending all their time trying to keep wrongthink from getting over the border. Mostly they are just living their lives the best they can in the environment they find themselves in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wouldn't say everybody in Rahadoum is a misotheist, it's just that this is the official policy of the state. Most people who actually live in Rahadoum likely fall into the Irreligious category, since they have less reason to think about religion because they live in a place where it's largely absent.
Like Rahadoumi academic institutions are making significant progress in medicine, alchemy, architecture, and various sciences so they're not spending all their time trying to keep wrongthink from getting over the border. Mostly they are just living their lives the best they can in the environment they find themselves in.
The main body doing this is their state inquistors, the Pure Legion who are answerable to the Laws of Mortality. They oppose all prostlyization, confescate all religious books and items and regularly check in on people arriving at ports to ensure they aren't religious and if they are to take away their items. Their main HQ does house a bunch of forbidden books, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did book burnings. Punishment of being religious is harsh starting at fines and imprisoment and going up from there for being religious.
I don't know how the various academics regard the pure legion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sure, but if you live in Rahadoum you can do anything else with your day that's not religious in nature and be as free to do that as you are anywhere else on Golarion. Naturally a lot of Rahadoumi people think that's "basically anything".
Like it's never good to have an Inquisition, but the Rahadoum Inquisition is remarkably liberal in what they permit. Normally these sorts of things exist to generate conformity and control, but the Pure Legion basically wants you do not do one thing and you're free to do anything else.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I wouldn't say everybody in Rahadoum is a misotheist, it's just that this is the official policy of the state. Most people who actually live in Rahadoum likely fall into the Irreligious category, since they have less reason to think about religion because they live in a place where it's largely absent.
I ought have emphasised the 'raised to be that way' aside from my post, but yes. For the average Rahadoumi, how much they actually hold misotheist views depends on how much they cleave to public values. People can have any number of relationships with between what they value and what their society values.
Although, it seems likely to me it would be more than just the Pure Legion who hold misotheistic views. Sure, they would make up the most zealous and active about them, given their selection requirements and job, but I would still expect most people to have a casual 'gods are a parasite on mortality' worldview that's been baked into their education since they were small which they'd fall back on if confronted with any manifestation of religion or divinity.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's also important to remember that the Laws of Mortality are anti-Deist, not anti-religious.
Religions that don't worship a Deity are accepted and, in the case of the Green Faith, welcomed even.
Also... can't remember where I read this, but I could swear that Rahadoum does have a temple to Pharasma there. The Pharasman's just put away the religious symbols, don't proselytize, and in return the Pure Legion overlooks them since they know a lot about conducting funerals and slaying undead.
I might be wrong though. As I said, I can't remember where I heard that...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's also important to remember that the Laws of Mortality are anti-Deist, not anti-religious.
Religions that don't worship a Deity are accepted and, in the case of the Green Faith, welcomed even.Also... can't remember where I read this, but I could swear that Rahadoum does have a temple to Pharasma there. The Pharasman's just put away the religious symbols, don't proselytize, and in return the Pure Legion overlooks them since they know a lot about conducting funerals and slaying undead.
I might be wrong though. As I said, I can't remember where I heard that...
I was just thinking to ask about non-divine religions, so thanks. With Occult, Primal, & maybe Arcane (?) religions & philosophies out there one could fulfill their religious needs w/o resorting to gods, or even worship. Some scenarios have painted Rahdoun as prone to scourges solved in other countries by divine casters, but that doesn't seem to track if all the other casters are present (plus their scientific advancements). Maybe it's about quantity? Or divine wrath?
How would the government powers react if a non-divine religion started flourishing, one with all the cult & tribalism issues, but w/o a divine entity to blame? Or multiple battling religions? Seems they might respond with violence to those too being as that's their MO, and it fits their original principle of hating the wars & damage of philosophical differences. Hmm.As well as misotheists, one might think of Rahadouni as antilatrists, against worship. Not sure how much ancestor & nature religions would incite their ire.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's also important to remember that the Laws of Mortality are anti-Deist, not anti-religious.
Religions that don't worship a Deity are accepted and, in the case of the Green Faith, welcomed even.Also... can't remember where I read this, but I could swear that Rahadoum does have a temple to Pharasma there. The Pharasman's just put away the religious symbols, don't proselytize, and in return the Pure Legion overlooks them since they know a lot about conducting funerals and slaying undead.
I might be wrong though. As I said, I can't remember where I heard that...I was just thinking to ask about non-divine religions, so thanks. With Occult, Primal, & maybe Arcane (?) religions & philosophies out there one could fulfill their religious needs w/o resorting to gods, or even worship. Some scenarios have painted Rahdoun as prone to scourges solved in other countries by divine casters, but that doesn't seem to track if all the other casters are present (plus their scientific advancements). Maybe it's about quantity? Or divine wrath?
How would the government powers react if a non-divine religion started flourishing, one with all the cult & tribalism issues, but w/o a divine entity to blame? Or multiple battling religions? Seems they might respond with violence to those too being as that's their MO, and it fits their original principle of hating the wars & damage of philosophical differences. Hmm.As well as misotheists, one might think of Rahadouni as antilatrists, against worship. Not sure how much ancestor & nature religions would incite their ire.
I'm not sure where Magnaholic is getting their information from, but it appears to conflict with this description of the Laws of Mortality.
The edicts include "challenge religious power and spread" and anathema include "solicit or receive divine or religious aid".
All of which for me implies any kind of divine magic or religion is a problem, even if it's not derived from a deity. Although the extent to which they go after non-deific divine/religious stuff may be much less than deific ones.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also there are many more divine beings then full fledged gods that grant powers, ie the empyreal lords, green men, the infernal dukes, demon lords, asura ranas, Pyschopomp Ushers, etc.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think probably they would call any being that grants divine spells to be a "deity".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think probably they would call any being that grants divine spells to be a "deity".
Agree, and I think they'd dislike Divine magic even from non-religious casters, i.e. atheist Sorcerers. And it sounds like they'd dislike non-divine religions too, though I don't know what metrics that would entail. Would a personal shrine to one's ancestor count? And so much Occult magic shares similar metaphysics, esp. spirit stuff. Secular clubs & philosophy groups might explode into a certain size & influence (and purpose!) to resemble religions. Add a charismatic leader or groundswell cause and that'd raise some alarms, so what justification would rulers use to quash them? And I do believe they'd quash them, but that'd blur the lines, corrupting their cause, transforming its purpose to "maintaining power" (which has happened to most every ruling structure on Earth). Hmm.
Does Rahadoun do any humanist outreach, i.e. Doctors Without Borders?
Maybe send scientific communicators out, or publish textbooks? Maybe not right for an RPG world built for conflict, but such a nobler side wouldn't have to detract from the zealotry of their peers. Heck, could lead to some interesting dilemmas where a group the PCs encounter has both charitable & zealous members, perhaps embodied in complex NPCs who are both.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Agree, and I think they'd dislike Divine magic even from non-religious casters, i.e. atheist Sorcerers.
100% Their anathema even says "divine or religious" aid is off limits. So divine sorcerers or exemplars or nephilims casting innate spells whose power is imbued into their being, or oracles who potentially might be acting contrary to the divine order entirely are still on the s!%% list.
For that they would need some divine-meter.
It seems like whatever supernatural force empowers the laws of morality does, to some extent.
The medical training you receive with the Mortal Healing feat physically stops working if there's a lingering presence of any kind of divine magic on the target, and if you ever stop being an atheist you lose the benefits of that training altogether until you repent.
So clearly there's some sort of metaphysical divine sense involved.
The average person might not be able to discern at a glance but clearly there is some kind of mechanism at play that makes it relevant, or at least something to be on guard from.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, let's remember if you were really good at the skills Arcana, Nature, Occult, and Religion it would allow you to identify all spells and presumably if they were of a divine source.
So theoretically, if the right person is watching while you cast a spell they can identify your spell casting tradition.
So yes, there is some kind of measure to it.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's also important to remember that the Laws of Mortality are anti-Deist, not anti-religious.
Religions that don't worship a Deity are accepted and, in the case of the Green Faith, welcomed even.Also... can't remember where I read this, but I could swear that Rahadoum does have a temple to Pharasma there. The Pharasman's just put away the religious symbols, don't proselytize, and in return the Pure Legion overlooks them since they know a lot about conducting funerals and slaying undead.
I might be wrong though. As I said, I can't remember where I heard that...I was just thinking to ask about non-divine religions, so thanks. With Occult, Primal, & maybe Arcane (?) religions & philosophies out there one could fulfill their religious needs w/o resorting to gods, or even worship. Some scenarios have painted Rahdoun as prone to scourges solved in other countries by divine casters, but that doesn't seem to track if all the other casters are present (plus their scientific advancements). Maybe it's about quantity? Or divine wrath?
How would the government powers react if a non-divine religion started flourishing, one with all the cult & tribalism issues, but w/o a divine entity to blame? Or multiple battling religions? Seems they might respond with violence to those too being as that's their MO, and it fits their original principle of hating the wars & damage of philosophical differences. Hmm.As well as misotheists, one might think of Rahadouni as antilatrists, against worship. Not sure how much ancestor & nature religions would incite their ire.
I'm not sure where Magnaholic is getting their information from, but it appears to conflict with this description of the Laws of Mortality.
The edicts include "challenge religious power and spread" and anathema include "solicit or receive divine or religious aid".
All of which for me implies any kind of divine magic or religion is a...
LEGAL RAHADOUMI FAITHS
The Laws of Mortality prohibit obedience
to a god—not faith or divine magic itself—
and Rahadoumi are fond of studying
and debating different philosophies and
doctrines. Among Rahadoum’s many
legal faiths, the Green Faith is prominent,
with druids in high demand to help heal
citizens and farmland ravaged by drought
and disease. Occultism and astrology are
also acceptable. Diabolism and genie
binding are permitted so long as the
mortal is the master. Even agnosticism
can be tolerated, as long as it contains no
direct worship, as can reincarnation faiths
like Sangpotshi
This. This is where I got my information, Claxon.
Furthermore, Divine Mysteries states in the Laws of Mortality page's last paragraph that Druids that don't worship a Deity are welcomed... but also viewed with suspicion for the overlap shared by Primal and Divine magic (never mind that Occult also shares an overlap with Divine, yet Rahadoum loves Occult casters... the hypocrites.) Meanwhile, Deist Druids are somehow more hated than Clerics...
They're also not too friendly to Divine Sorcerers... And I'm guessing Witches, but they might just hate Witches in general, by seeing their Patrons as a form of deity.
Also, I feel like any follower of the Laws of Mortality is in direct violation of its own Edicts and Anathema, given the rather religious zealotry surrounding it...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the thing about Rahadoum trusting Occult magic more than Primal Magic is that the difference between Mental essence and Vital essence as antipodes is that the former is rational and the latter is the opposite. Occult and Arcane magic can be explained, codified, broken down, etc. in a way that Divine and Primal cannot. Arcane magic is easier to explain or make concrete, mostly because it deals with tangible things like rocks and fire rather than intangible things like thoughtforms and quintessence.
This is why the "starkly divided on Druids" thing comes from, since the vital essence that drives, say, animals to instinctive behavior is the same vital essence that is the nature of faith, which Rahadoumi people are suspicious of.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would think Occult would be similarly split, with its association with so many otherworldly entities, spirits, & Lovecraftian horrors, but also the more knowable Bardic "true name" aspects tied to the cosmos.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It seems logically consistent for Rahadoum to view Primal magic with suspicion on the basis of overlapping Divine on the axis of faith-based magic; even if that faith is in the natural cycles of life, not necessarily divine entities. Particularly re: Druids who are often viewed as 'nature priests'. I feel like Occult magic treating spiritual and otherworldly beings with a rational and logical approach would be much more comfortable, even if technically the focus on otherworldly beings is also shared in common with Divine.
Incidentally, on the topic of witches, I feel like the note under diabolism contains an important clue: as long as the mortal remains the master is that practice accepted. Rahadoum doesn't need to view patrons as gods to object--the relationship with an unknown supernatural entity that bestows magic in exchange for service is more than enough reason to be upset, even if the particulars of a given witch's patron relationship may beg to differ.
Either way, it definitely seems like the Laws of Mortality are relaxing somewhat their stance on all divine magic as of Divine Mysteries. This seems to make sense as the lore explores more about the relationship between the new traditions and this rarely explored region.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...It's also important to remember that the Laws of Mortality are anti-Deist, not anti-religious.
Religions that don't worship a Deity are accepted and, in the case of the Green Faith, welcomed even.Also... can't remember where I read this, but I could swear that Rahadoum does have a temple to Pharasma there. The Pharasman's just put away the religious symbols, don't proselytize, and in return the Pure Legion overlooks them since they know a lot about conducting funerals and slaying undead.
I might be wrong though. As I said, I can't remember where I heard that...I was just thinking to ask about non-divine religions, so thanks. With Occult, Primal, & maybe Arcane (?) religions & philosophies out there one could fulfill their religious needs w/o resorting to gods, or even worship. Some scenarios have painted Rahdoun as prone to scourges solved in other countries by divine casters, but that doesn't seem to track if all the other casters are present (plus their scientific advancements). Maybe it's about quantity? Or divine wrath?
How would the government powers react if a non-divine religion started flourishing, one with all the cult & tribalism issues, but w/o a divine entity to blame? Or multiple battling religions? Seems they might respond with violence to those too being as that's their MO, and it fits their original principle of hating the wars & damage of philosophical differences. Hmm.As well as misotheists, one might think of Rahadouni as antilatrists, against worship. Not sure how much ancestor & nature religions would incite their ire.
I'm not sure where Magnaholic is getting their information from, but it appears to conflict with this description of the Laws of Mortality.
The edicts include "challenge religious power and spread" and anathema include "solicit or receive divine or religious aid".
All of which for me implies any kind of divine
Honestly that just sucks.
Because that's very conflicting with the earlier published information I linked.
Actually, looking into this more, the world guide was published before Lost Omens Gods and Magic, which I cited.
Since they are in direct contradiction of one another, I would say that your source has been....redacted isn't the right word...overwritten.
Anyways, based on the most recent published item (just looking at these two) I would go with the description from Gods and Magic. It also makes a lot more sense to me than the first.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly that just sucks.
Because that's very conflicting with the earlier published information I linked.
Actually, looking into this more, the world guide was published before Lost Omens Gods and Magic, which I cited.
Since they are in direct contradiction of one another, I would say that your source has been....redacted isn't the right word...overwritten.
Anyways, based on the most recent published item (just looking at these two) I would go with the description from Gods and Magic. It also makes a lot more sense to me than the first.
I don't think this is a case of a change in the lore - for one, it was only ~6 months between releases, so their development was happening at the same time. That always makes it difficult to figure out which was the intended one. Secondly, I don't think there's necessarily an out-of-universe contradiction here - and it seems too far-reaching (to me) to say that the edicts/anathema of a philosophy being released overrules recently-published specific lore about a part of the setting. There's an interesting almost-contradiction here, but it entirely could be in-universe. Especially when an even more recent source (Divine Mysteries) continues to reinforce the World Guide information.
The general edicts and anathema of the Laws of Mortality can be to challenge religious power and to resist religious aid, and Rahadoum can allow specific non-deific faiths to operate in their borders. Does the Green Faith count as a religion, and so it is against the edicts of the Laws of Mortality to receive aid from it? There's a strong argument to be made - and I imagine it is being made by many members of the Pure Legion. Others will disagree, and yet others will be acknowledging the assistance of druids of the Green Faith in stopping desertification and view that as more important than fights about what does and does not qualify as 'religious aid'. Is astrology a faith? Many will argue it has no deity involved, and is not necessarily based in faith - especially in a setting like the Lost Omens setting, where it is provably real in some ways. Others will disagree, and that conflict makes Rahadoum more interesting, not less. Rahadoum should not be a monolith, and the possibility for multiple perspectives for characters from the region (as well as the potential for stories like a power struggle between the Pure Legion and the main government over this sort of decision) is something I'd like more of in the setting, not less.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think this is a case of a change in the lore - for one, it was only ~6 months between releases, so their development was happening at the same time.
That's not much shorter than how long it took them to redesign Anadi. So I'm not sure that's necessarily wholly indicative on its own.
The general edicts and anathema of the Laws of Mortality can be to challenge religious power and to resist religious aid, and Rahadoum can allow specific non-deific faiths to operate in their borders.
I think the hangup is less about the green faith and more about their stance on divine magic. The LOWG piece says they don't have a stance on non-theistic divine magic, but their anathema references divine aid broadly, mortal healing stops functioning in the presence of divine magic, and it's even been established in other discussions that post-WoI Rahadoum is struggling to reform its stance on divine energy and issuing new proclamations protecting people unwillingly infused with divine energy in the wake of the godsrain forcibly creating swaths of new nephilim/sorcerers/oracles/exemplars. It doesn't really make sense that they need to change their official position on those things if that was already the case.
It's not a big deal but the statement in the LOWG does feel like it kind of contradicts everything else. So I'm inclined to think it might be in error.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, Rahadoum is in a much more interesting place post Godsrain than it was before that (where it was kind of one-note). Since the Laws of Mortality are more of a "state policy" thing than a "a distant deity makes a ruling" they're somewhat more able to steer the ship to respond to what's happening.
Like Rahadoum's embrace of druids is clearly about "one of the real problems we're dealing with is desertification, so it would be bad to bar the experts from helping us." There are probably zealots who would think that "you just became a nephilim/sorcerer/exemplar because some godstuff splashed on you? Death or exile!" but most likely those people don't have a firm grasp on the levels of power. The interesting thing about Rahadoum has always been less the police state and more the internal tension between the progressive and reactionary factions within the country. Nobody who is running a hospital wants to be bothered so that the secret police can search for holy symbols, after all.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The two texts that seem in contradiction imo are not.
It's just that "religion" is an institution with a power structure. Think less "christian" and more "Catholics"
It seems the Laws of Mortality are all about keeping mortals away from power structures where outsiders are on top.
This fully squares the circle of not exactly being oppositional to divine magic per-se, nor even pact-based magics, but it absolutely does seek to combat any institution where an outsider gives the orders, and mortals obey.
I also want to bring Baskral in for comparison.
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Basrakal
It is a "highly anarchic" city that lacks the laws of mortality, but was established to be free of the gods' meddling. One of their only rules is "no gods allowed," and those beings are fully denied entry, despite the city being mostly outsiders.
As is true everywhere, freedom is two-sided.
Every "free to do ___" contradicts and prevents those who wish to be "free from ___" and vice-versa.
In order to have a land / kingdom where the people can be free from the gods, it is a requirement that the same people are *not* free to serve those gods.
Learning to navigate and explore this contradiction of freedom can be super insightful, IRL and otherwise.
So try to consider text about Rahadoum and mentions of religion in that context, where it seems all lines point back to "who orders who."
This contradiction-resolution seems rather well summarized in Rahadoum's wiki-listed motto:
"let no mortal be beholden to a god"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're missing it a bit. No one is having trouble parsing that sentence. If it was the only bit of lore there'd be no issue, because it's relatively straight forward.
The trouble is that numerous other sources tell us that Rahadoum does take issue with divine magic more broadly, and not merely just theism.
So it's only really squaring the circle by just not addressing the actual contradictions.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Basrakal distinguishes between the use / casting of divine magic (which is allowed, but seems to be a little frowned upon due to connotations) and treats that differently from "beings capable of granting divine magic" who are outright denied entry.
Idk anything about Rahadoum, so I cannot say for sure that this distinction helps. I assume any problems the nation has with divine magic generally still stem from this issue of it being god-sourced.
Not sure if there are actually any in-world tests that could differentiate between the spells of a rare divine-type sorcerer and that of a cleric. Nor what the lore distribution of god-granted divine magic versus god-uninvolved divine magics are. Knowing how rare those sorcs are would be helpful.
Where Basrakal only has to watch out for gods themselves, Rahadoum has to deal with the notion that any mortal can be a cleric in secret. I can see why divine magic would thereby have a lot more scrutiny / "be a problem" (is it outright banned? "take issue with" is not very informative) that could merit further investigation in case of cult.
Does Rahadoum still practice slavery? I kept getting hit in the face with that factoid, and I can't find any lore about it ending like I can w/ Cheliax & Absalom. It's a bit insulting to have the one nation that intentionally takes the no-gods hard road for the sake of mortal determination to have slavery plastered all over the moment I check it out.
Because slavery is officially in the "we never talk about it" black hole, I'm worried that Rahadoum was "locked in" to that status quo, and it was never outlawed before the black hole rendered the topic verboten.
Ironically enough, trying to figure this out led me to the infamous "Pathfinder has a slavery problem" open letter, and reading that did kinda put all the oddly-emphasized bits of slavery all over the lore into a new light/context.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here is some info from the Firebrands book on Rahadoum. It doesn't mention if they still do or do not do slavery but considering it called out other organizations and Paizo's general stance I would say they don't. They are plenty oppressive as it as being an anti-theist that sees a shelynite praying for love something to be imprisoned, exiled, or potentially even executed for.
Rahadoum: The nation where practicing any faith is outlawed has seen several acts of vandalism and protests since Firebrands infiltrated the area in hopes of breaking the mandate on religious freedom. Talks are ongoing between members of the ruling council over whether the Firebrands should be treated as a zealous ideological movement akin to faith, though complications have arisen recently when a captured Firebrand confessed that they were looking into rumors of Chelaxian plans to retake Khari
Rahadoum’s Pure Legion rigorously enforces the nation’s Laws of Mortality, imprisoning, exiling, or executing preachers who violate its prohibitions on proselytizing. A distinguished debate club in the city of Manaket called the Roosters’ Perch recently spent several fraught weeks debating the moral merits of these punishments.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One thing I would think from the perspective of a follower of the Laws of Mortality is that while you are not supposed to treat a God as more important than a Person, you probably also should not treat a God as less important than a person. Specifically, if you're a Rahadoumi who travels outside the country, there will be many contexts where you defer to local mundane authorities because they are in fact authorities. You're not going to start a revolution every time someone tells you not to wear blue within the city walls or that you can't sell your goods here, you have to go to the market. When local authorities tell you these sorts of things, you mostly go along with it because you're not in charge.
Part of the point of the Laws of Mortality is that outsiders shouldn't have control over things in the terrestrial universe. But I don't think it necessarily implies that outsiders shouldn't have significant control in the Outer Sphere. There is a difference between "Pharasma comes to your town and tells you to do something" and "you go to Pharasma's court and she tells you to do something."
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here is some info from the Firebrands book on Rahadoum. It doesn't mention if they still do or do not do slavery but considering it called out other organizations and Paizo's general stance I would say they don't. They are plenty oppressive as it as being an anti-theist that sees a shelynite praying for love something to be imprisoned, exiled, or potentially even executed for.
Rahadoum: The nation where practicing any faith is outlawed has seen several acts of vandalism and protests since Firebrands infiltrated the area in hopes of breaking the mandate on religious freedom. Talks are ongoing between members of the ruling council over whether the Firebrands should be treated as a zealous ideological movement akin to faith, though complications have arisen recently when a captured Firebrand confessed that they were looking into rumors of Chelaxian plans to retake KhariRahadoum’s Pure Legion rigorously enforces the nation’s Laws of Mortality, imprisoning, exiling, or executing preachers who violate its prohibitions on proselytizing. A distinguished debate club in the city of Manaket called the Roosters’ Perch recently spent several fraught weeks debating the moral merits of these punishments.
Rather ironic, and hypocritical, considering the Laws of Mortality can be considered a ''zealous ideological movement akin to faith''...
One thing I would think from the perspective of a follower of the Laws of Mortality is that while you are not supposed to treat a God as more important than a Person, you probably also should not treat a God as less important than a person. Specifically, if you're a Rahadoumi who travels outside the country, there will be many contexts where you defer to local mundane authorities because they are in fact authorities. You're not going to start a revolution every time someone tells you not to wear blue within the city walls or that you can't sell your goods here, you have to go to the market. When local authorities tell you these sorts of things, you mostly go along with it because you're not in charge.
Part of the point of the Laws of Mortality is that outsiders shouldn't have control over things in the terrestrial universe. But I don't think it necessarily implies that outsiders shouldn't have significant control in the Outer Sphere. There is a difference between "Pharasma comes to your town and tells you to do something" and "you go to Pharasma's court and she tells you to do something."
Except there are people who go out to proselytize the Laws of Mortality to people outside Rahadoum.
Granted, who knows? The Laws of Mortality might be more nuanced and flexible then I think.
We'll probably have to wait until ''Lost Omens: Golden Road'' to find out.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Except there are people who go out to proselytize the Laws of Mortality to people outside Rahadoum.
Sure, there are people who go out and evangelize for whatever. But those people are significantly more zealous and committed to the cause than most people who are followers of that same cause. Rahadoum is also like an actual functioning country with an economy, art, culture, etc.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
PF1 Oracle is a Rahadoumi who had to flee the country after receiving her powers.
That is honestly super disappointing, and might be in the "yikes" category.
The more I sit with it, the worse it sounds.
Out of all the infinity of possibility, the pf hero representing the entire country is a victim of unjust religious persecution.
Like, holy s$@*, what were they thinking. It puts a lot of paint toward the picture of the whole country being little more than a bunch of anti-theist witch cleric hunters.
.
It's also just super lame. The character being an Oracle makes them an unwilling user of divine magic. This maximizes the "injustice" of their backstory, but it also robs it of all nuance and interesting room for conflict.
If they were a willing cleric to a god, that would add so many more questions and complexity to the situation.
But nope. It is instead the maximal "bad anti-theist country, grr" as is possible.
.
The surface level backstory to Rahadoum is that they had such a bad and traumatic period of "untold devastation" of capital W War between the religions of Nethys, Norgorber, and Sarenrae, that the country picked door number 4 and declared "no more religions."
Like, the Laws of Mortality are canonically born out of *war* trauma, and the whole nation knows life would be easier if they allowed gods and their magic.
Their backstory is the peasants kicking out the warring Catholic *and* Protestant churches to do their own thing, yet somehow they decided the nation's representative hero to all players/readers is that.
That is a major oof, and major yikes from me dawg.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
PF1 Oracle is a Rahadoumi who had to flee the country after receiving her powers.
She isn't the only Rahadoumi Iconic. There is Enora the 1st edition Arcanist but she is in self-exile because she worships Nethys. As well as Thaleon, The iconic Pyschic who is traveling the world as he is a brightness seeker but is otherwise seems to be a pleasant guy.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Ragadoumi seems to have an extremely high number of iconics per capita. Can anywhere else beat it?PF1 Oracle is a Rahadoumi who had to flee the country after receiving her powers.She isn't the only Rahadoumi Iconic. There is Enora the 1st edition Arcanist but she is in self-exile because she worships Nethys. As well as Thaleon, The iconic Pyschic who is traveling the world as he is a brightness seeker but is otherwise seems to be a pleasant guy.
Varisia has the most at 6 Iconics followed by Cheliax, Absalom, and of all things the Lands of the Linorm Kings at 4.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rather ironic, and hypocritical, considering the Laws of Mortality can be considered a ''zealous ideological movement akin to faith''...
What! An oppressive government is also hypocritical!
I'm shocked! Shocked!
Well not that shocked.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
PF1 Oracle is a Rahadoumi who had to flee the country after receiving her powers.That is honestly super disappointing, and might be in the "yikes" category.
The more I sit with it, the worse it sounds.
Out of all the infinity of possibility, the pf hero representing the entire country is a victim of unjust religious persecution.
Like, holy s$&!, what were they thinking. It puts a lot of paint toward the picture of the whole country being little more than a bunch of anti-theist
witchcleric hunters..
It's also just super lame. The character being an Oracle makes them an unwilling user of divine magic. This maximizes the "injustice" of their backstory, but it also robs it of all nuance and interesting room for conflict.
If they were a willing cleric to a god, that would add so many more questions and complexity to the situation.
But nope. It is instead the maximal "bad anti-theist country, grr" as is possible.
.
The surface level backstory to Rahadoum is that they had such a bad and traumatic period of "untold devastation" of capital W War between the religions of Nethys, Norgorber, and Sarenrae, that the country picked door number 4 and declared "no more religions."
Like, the Laws of Mortality are canonically born out of *war* trauma, and the whole nation knows life would be easier if they allowed gods and their magic.
Their backstory is the peasants kicking out the warring Catholic *and* Protestant churches to do their own thing, yet somehow they decided the nation's representative hero to all players/readers is that.
That is a major oof, and major yikes from me dawg.
How is this Yikes? Is it Yikes that Cheliax and Nidal are Oppressive? The Iconics from Cheliax are either the villian iconics from Hells Vegenance(Lazzero Dalvera*, and Linxia Benzekri) born into slavery(both Lem and Meligaster), or a non-villian token evil regular iconic(Seltyiel) is that yikes?
*He came from Molthune but then joined up with Cheliax.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How is this Yikes? Is it Yikes that Cheliax and Nidal are Oppressive? The Iconics from Cheliax are either the villian iconics from Hells Vegenance(Lazzero Dalvera*, and Linxia Benzekri) born into slavery(both Lem and Meligaster), or a non-villian token evil regular iconic(Seltyiel) is that yikes?
*He came from Molthune but then joined up with Cheliax.
Characters from foreign lands always serve as ambassadors for that land. This honestly kinda sucks for writers to deal with, but it is unavoidable.
Hero characters may have some moral grey, but on the whole, they are unambiguously "in the right."
While it's fine to give heroes traumatic backstories, you have to be super careful. Heroes are often rare exceptions, but making that a backstory always biases the perception of that "canonically rare" thing into being a common occurrence.
The reason for such over the top "victims of evil" backstories like Balazar being a baby-snatched eugenics project reject turned sacrifice turned Summoner, is because it's "okay" to have that institution of oppressors painted as "unambiguously wrong/evil." (or is *was* okay, until another writer wants to later paint the perp as more ambiguous, then you got baked-in issues)
This is why "former slave" is such a common backstory. It's an auto-justification for escape and righteous violence, and it even allows for perp-moral wiggle room; the *institution* of slavery is auto-evil, but it's "possible" (it's often a stretch) for said society as a whole to not be rendered evil.
Seeing as Absalom was widely seen a "good" society, including while they were slavers until a few years ago, I think the dissonance caused by me framing it like [Absalom was a bunch of slavers] helps to understand the "yikes."
If the first Absalom iconic people thought of had "was a slave and can never go home because they are legally property" as their backstory, that would greatly affect the "character of Absalom" itself.
(Like, we know just how long and deep those slavery scars run, Absalom being ~4 years post-emancipation is nuts from a societal perspective, that city would be enduring crazy unrest and chaos. Paizo choosing to ignore what is a super fertile ground for storytelling and choosing to black hole the topic is imo both "unforced error" by forgoing the opportunity to handle the troubling times with grace, *and also* callously white-washes the issue by pretending that "everything's fine, the law changed and it's like it never happened." It is not possible to avoid making a statement. Omission itself says a whole hecking lot.)
.
In Alahazra's case, being a hero means that her persecution was unambiguously / "in the end" wrong, and that the whole society that did that to her carries that crime of wrongdoing.
That first impression is going to taint every future factoid about Rahadoum a reader encounters. Every bit of "moral good info" dropped into the brain will always be accompanied by an echo of "but they kill innocent people for manifesting divine powers."
It also just makes Alahazra a bad representative for Rahadoum. She was thrown out of her home as a teenager to die of exposure in the desert, so bias aside, she has been living as a stateless nomad for much longer than she ever was a Rahadoumi. Yet, she still carries that Rahadoumi label.
Logically speaking, this time gap alone would mean her cultural performance would have little Rahadoumi in it. Her accent, clothing choice, ect "should" all be wildly independent and unique, but because she's "a Rahadoumi" in the writer's eyes I'm presuming her mannerisms are still reflective of the nation that meant to kill her.
.
To top all this off, it seems Paizo has fully retired / outmoded Alahazra, and replaced her with Korakai. Talk is cheap, and they can claim she's going to get more content, and that she was not "replaced," but it's hard not to put weight into *which* iconics were chosen to get same-role ~replacements and which did not.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean war of immortals outright states that a significant portion, if not outright majority, of Rahadoum supports the mass incarceration of people altered by the Godsrain because anything divine is inherently criminal.
Alahazra's story is not some uniquely negative take on Rahadoum it's their bread and butter. If there's any outlier it's probably that her parents didn't hand her over to the pure legion themselves.
These are not the hyper enlightened atheists living in a rational utopia that some people on the internet really want to project on them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not that I'm trying contradict, however I am curious where the bits about rejecting science come from for Rahadoum.
I was under the impression, that because they reject the divine they were more advanced in science/medicine.
But maybe it's that they reject anything that paint divine associated things in a positive light.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I find it very disingenuous to just shrug and say "they are supposed to be bad guys" because, that's kinda my whole point. Choosing to write the one "no religion allowed" country as bad guys is a writing choice and absurdly "yikes" to do. Me saying some factoid is "yikes" is saying it's approaching that "anti-theist land is evil" conclusion, because that is a crazy bad writing idea to publish.
I'm giving the writers the benefit of the doubt and allowing for it to be unintentional.
Because making an oppressed and war-devastated people who's only characteristic is that they kicked out the institutions responsible, and making that nation evil on purpose is outright "maximum yikes."
Religions are institutions and empires, they are not "just a faith." The Holy Roman Empire was the most powerful empire on earth during it's heyday. Religion is a system of legal laws and social practices all fused together.
In many places in the USA, even with the separation of religion as a foundational principle, those institutions still wormed their way in, and we have religious laws that affect people's everyday lives.
In 2025.
There's an entire umbrella just for the "day of rest" laws which include things like "no alcohol on Sundays." All of these laws for a single christian rule, in the country supposedly known for "separation of church and state."
.
.
It's so yikes to write this into Golarion, because this "no, the victims are evil for rejecting us, look at this innocent Oracle child doing no wrong" propaganda has and continues to happen IRL.
Any time an institutional power was pushed out by the locals, foreign or local, that institution did everything it could to vilify and paint as evil those people they oppressed.
Natives, slaves, churches, it happened every single time. "Those ____ ___s are nothing but violent _____."
I'll just vaguely gesture toward the Vietnam War for an example.
A low-tech nation uninvolved in world politics getting obliterated by coincidence of geography and for being labeled with the wrong word. But nope, those viet cong are the bad guys for trying to keep out foreign invasion, suuuuper evil. (and if you felt any twinge of "but the viet cong were bad guys" that just shows how bad/powerful this problem is)
.
Back to Rahadoum, do you not get some intuitive/dissonant niggle about the fact that the one "unambiguously evil" harm this nation is depicted as doing via Alahazra might be a "stretch?"
Does it really seem "honest" to put the camera upon the 1/million that get "randomly" touched with divine magic?
Any mention of Rahadoum being an international aggressor? Oh, they "defend" themselves from Cheliax land-grabbing. And "defend" from monsters from the Sodden Lands. And "defend" from ..."religious assassins of Mediogalti"? Wow, wtf someone actually wrote that, okay.
.
In a Golarion where you can have plenty of readers defending Cheliax as "they are Lawful not Evil" or "they just care about power and strength" yeah, I cannot see Rahadoum as "automatic bad guys." That does not compute.
It says a whole lot about the authors that the nation of victims has their one genuine crime/harm brain-blasted into all the readers, yet even wiki-diving I don't know much else beyond "zealously anti-religious".
And it is crazy yikes that, either by accidental or (lets be real, most likely) on purpose, Rahadoum is written to portray the whole nation as being "wrong" and "harming innocents" because they would dare kick out and reject all influence of their foreign oppressors.
(and I could go off even further on the "beyond yikes" of writing Rahadoum specifically as having "generally quite common slavery" hooooly shiiiiiit.)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I find it very disingenuous to just shrug and say "they are supposed to be bad guys" because, that's kinda my whole point. Choosing to write the one "no religion allowed" country as bad is a writing choice and absurdly "yikes" to do. Me saying some factoid is "yikes" is saying it's approaching that "anti-theist land is evil" conclusion, because that is a crazy bad writing idea to publish.
That's one way of interpreting it.
But I don't think it's a good one.
Let me rephrase your words a bit:
I find it very disingenuous to just shrug and say "they are supposed to be bad guys" because, that's kinda my whole point. Choosing to write the "oppressive" country as bad is a writing choice and absurdly "yikes" to do. Me saying some factoid is "yikes" is saying it's approaching that "anti-theist land is evil" conclusion, because that is a crazy bad writing idea to publish.
I feel like I made minimal changes to your statement, but it captures why people don't agree with your point of view.
And as to why there isn't another atheist country with a better representation....my honest response is because it doesn't seem likely unless it's institutionally enforced. Any country that has religious freedom is probably not going to be majority atheist (especially in Golarion). And even if you had a city where that happened to be the case, it's unlikely to be the defining feature.
Rahadoum is an anti-theocratic (if that's even a thing) country, but it's basically still just a theocratic country if you consider how theocratic countries behave and equate the Laws of Mortality as a "religious belief".
You're fixated on the idea that Rahadoum is atheist/anti-theist/misotheist. We're fixated on the fact that they persecute people (sometimes for things that happen to them beyond their control, see Godsrain consequences) and don't have freedom of religion.
I guess your point would be "well it's the only example of an atheist country and it's not a nice one".
And my response would be that any country that has institutionally enforced atheism is not a good one.
Any country that has any kind of institutionally enforced religion (or lack thereof) isn't good.
Zealots of any nature are generally bad.
And being oppressed doesn't give someone a pass to be oppressive.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
because that is a crazy bad writing idea to publish.
Between this and your stuff on pharasma earlier I think it's safer to say that you have some very particular opinions about how certain things should be portrayed and ran and this happens to be a writing choice that runs counter to how you think the world should be presented.
But that's not the same thing as "Crazy bad" or even "not good" really. It's just a thing.