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https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo70cy9Is the killing of the Andoran citizen in Breachill and the subsequent Andoran invasion of Isger that’s mentioned in the new article supposed to be the inciting incident of the war or is this separate?Gotta link? Hard to interpret a text sight unseen.
Thanks. I'd say there's a good chance that it is the inciting incident, yeah.
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Andoren troops in Isger feels like quite the escalation to one Andoren citizen's execution - by Hellknights, not even Chelish troops!
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Andoren troops in Isger feels like quite the escalation to one Andoren citizen's execution - by Hellknights, not even Chelish troops!
Agreed. Andoran should have asked Isger (Cheliax) to hand over those who were guilty of the murder.
Andoran sending troops to "invade," even a nominally sovereign nation, to render justice feels like an invasion and thus, an act of war on Almas' part.
It looks like Andoran is provoking Cheliax on purpose.
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Andoren troops in Isger feels like quite the escalation to one Andoren citizen's execution - by Hellknights, not even Chelish troops!Agreed. Andoran should have asked Isger (Cheliax) to hand over those who were guilty of the murder.
This would be futile, since the response would be "not only does Andoran not have an extradition treaty with either Isger or Cheliax, it is itself only an errant province of Cheliax and governed by Chelaxian law in this matter. And Chelaxian law says whatever self-serving thing we need it to say in this moment to ensure we keep jurisdiction over the investigation and custody of the suspect, and you do not get it."
And really, from a Realistic perspective, why should Andoran's government not take any pretext to start a war, if it wants one and believes it could achieve its objectives? It's not like there's a Golarion UN whose members have sworn off aggressive war.
Andoren troops in Isger feels like quite the escalation to one Andoren citizen's execution - by Hellknights, not even Chelish troops!Agreed. Andoran should have asked Isger (Cheliax) to hand over those who were guilty of the murder.
Andoran sending troops to "invade," even a nominally sovereign nation, to render justice feels like an invasion and thus, an act of war on Almas' part.
It looks like Andoran is provoking Cheliax on purpose.
"Looks like" plays a key role here. How high up the chain does responsibility go and what were their motivations? Is it personal grudge they're willing to drag their country into or a Cheliax operation giving Cheliax political motivation and faux innocence?
Or better yet, did the Whispering Way shove these pawns into each other so two major military powers (who both have strong political influence to rally others) will spend all their might on each other rather than on the undead invasion? The Whispering Way is controlled by immortal geniuses after all, and I'd hope they would've learned something from watching how the region responded to the Worldwound. Gotta nip those crusades at the source. Also learn something about their enemies' deepest reserves of power.
As sound as that seems coming from an Earth POV, I wonder how viable this strategy is in a "level up to superhuman levels" schema. Sure, the region will lose lots of troops and civilians, maybe even make plenty of juicy graveyards to suck necromantic energy from, but in a world where heroes > armies, how many heroes do you want your enemies to build?
What steps might the WW take to prevent that? Perhaps say, hampering Raise Dead efforts? Even if not the instigators, they should devote resources to trap some higher-powered souls and ensure that both sides feel the attrition rather than grow stronger in this perverse "killing = XP = tangible power" universe. Heck, does entropy even measure up again magic and heroism?
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"Looks like" plays a key role here. How high up the chain does responsibility go and what were their motivations? Is it personal grudge they're willing to drag their country into or a Cheliax operation giving Cheliax political motivation and faux innocence?Andoren troops in Isger feels like quite the escalation to one Andoren citizen's execution - by Hellknights, not even Chelish troops!Agreed. Andoran should have asked Isger (Cheliax) to hand over those who were guilty of the murder.
Andoran sending troops to "invade," even a nominally sovereign nation, to render justice feels like an invasion and thus, an act of war on Almas' part.
It looks like Andoran is provoking Cheliax on purpose.
That's precisely why I used those two words. There has to be room for at least some intrigue in the Inner Sea.
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Andoren troops in Isger feels like quite the escalation to one Andoren citizen's execution - by Hellknights, not even Chelish troops!
The reason this is a good Casus belli is that Hellknights are not de jure agents of the Chellish state, but it's easy to see many contexts of them being seen as de facto agents of Thrune.
Like there has to be a compelling reason for the two sides not to prefer to deescalate. Cheliax is justified in saying that they are not responsible for Hellknights, and cannot tolerate Andoran troops that close to their border, after all.
Seeing similarities with the Glorious Reclamation thing.
Andoren troops in Isger feels like quite the escalation to one Andoren citizen's execution - by Hellknights, not even Chelish troops!The reason this is a good Casus belli is that Hellknights are not de jure agents of the Chellish state, but it's easy to see many contexts of them being seen as de facto agents of Thrune.
Like there has to be a compelling reason for the two sides not to prefer to deescalate. Cheliax is justified in saying that they are not responsible for Hellknights, and cannot tolerate Andoran troops that close to their border, after all.
and the Order of the Rack is more "loyal" to Thrune than most if I remember correctly.
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Watching the PaizoCon Keynote and Hellfire Crisis panels.
Seems Abrogail's response to Eagle Knights kicking the Order of the Rack out of Breachill is to officially nationalize the Hellknight orders as agents of the Chelaxian state.
Not sure how I feel about that...
EDIT: They mention a bit later that some of the orders refuse to submit to the crown, so there are still some independent Hellknights out there. They specifically called out the Orders of the Torrent and Nail as such.
EDIT II: "Hellfire Crisis Phase II" AP is essentially a direct sequel to Hellbreakers, so we're not getting anything from the Chelaxian perspective...
Not particularly surprised, but seriously, is playing a Chelaxian character who isn't actively fighting against House Thrune even supported anymore?
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Watching the PaizoCon Keynote and Hellfire Crisis panels.
Seems Abrogail's response to Eagle Knights kicking the Order of the Rack out of Breachhill is to officially nationalize the Hellknight orders as agents of the Chelaxian state.
Not sure how I feel about that...
EDIT: They mention a bit later that some of the orders refuse to submit to the crown, so there are still some independent Hellknights out there. They specifically called out the Orders of the Torrent and Nail as such.
The Order of the Torrent is based up in Kintargo, so...
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The Order of the Torrent is based up in Kintargo, so...
To be sure. I never assumed everyone would just bend the knee - just wasn't sure if those that didn't would still be Hellknights in the end, or drop the name and either reorganize into something else or transition to more generic knightly orders and mercenary groups.
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You have to imagine that even if the upper echelons of a Hellknight Order go along with becoming nationalized by Thrune, that not every member of the rank and file is entirely happy with being beholden to an actual government rather than principles of law and order.
It's entirely likely that various subfactions of Hellknights believe each other to be illegitimate going forward.
Hellknights never before required the official sanction of a legitimate government to operate before, they mostly justified their activities via the combination of "might makes right" and "these folks can be trusted to follow the rules."
The Order of the Nail having a spine is kind of funny, considering how evil and awful they are in their own right.
The Order of the Nail having a spine is kind of funny, considering how evil and awful they are in their own right.
I think the resistance to Thrune's nationalization order is more about how much like the Order of the Torrent is based in Kintargo, the Order of the Nail is based outside of Korvosa- in Varisia.
Naturally Hellknight Orders that are not based in Cheliax would not want to immediately acquiesce to being under the control of Cheliax since that's going to invite uncomfortable questions from the ruling powers of the countries they are based in.
It will be interesting to see how the Godclaw comes down on this, since they're based in Isger which is nominally independent of Cheliax though it operates as a client state, albeit one that will be a significant battleground for this war one imagines. It' s not like Abadar, Uirch, and Irori have any great fondness for Cheliax so ideologically they might prefer to operate as a peacekeeping force but "what the Godclaw does" is probably going to come up in the AP.
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The Order of the Torrent is based up in Kintargo, so...To be sure. I never assumed everyone would just bend the knee - just wasn't sure if those that didn't would still be Hellknights in the end, or drop the name and either reorganize into something else or transition to more generic knightly orders and mercenary groups.
IIRC, there was noise made somewhere that the Order of the Torrent at least was thinking of doing just that.
After looking for a bit, it's in the Curtain Call player's guide, on page 18: "Octavio Sabinus (male human) is the lictor of the Hellknight Order of the Torrent—a mercenary group whose focus is on rescuing abductees and the victims of human trafficking. Recently, the Order of the Torrent has laid low, and rumors abound that they're considering abandoning their affiliation with the decidedly Chelaxian order [of Hellknights writ large] to embrace an entirely new set of virtues."
It will be interesting to see how the Godclaw comes down on this, since they're based in Isger which is nominally independent of Cheliax though it operates as a client state, albeit one that will be a significant battleground for this war one imagines. It' s not like Abadar, Uirch, and Irori have any great fondness for Cheliax so ideologically they might prefer to operate as a peacekeeping force but "what the Godclaw does" is probably going to come up in the AP.
They might just not survive as an organization. The Glorious Reclamation didn't hit them fatally, but it hit them hard, and now they're stuck in the front lines of a Great Power war.
Watching the PaizoCon Keynote and Hellfire Crisis panels.
Seems Abrogail's response to Eagle Knights kicking the Order of the Rack out of Breachill is to officially nationalize the Hellknight orders as agents of the Chelaxian state.
Not sure how I feel about that...
EDIT: They mention a bit later that some of the orders refuse to submit to the crown, so there are still some independent Hellknights out there. They specifically called out the Orders of the Torrent and Nail as such.
Odd, the Order of the Scourge should also have issues with all of that.
Odd, the Order of the Scourge should also have issues with all of that.
Well, they didn't give an exhaustive list of the Hellknight orders that object to being nationalized. But like the Scourge Citadel is nearby Egorian, so they have to walk a tightrope here.
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Odd, the Order of the Scourge should also have issues with all of that.Well, they didn't give an exhaustive list of the Hellknight orders that object to being nationalized. But like the Scourge Citadel is nearby Egorian, so they have to walk a tightrope here.
Yeah, orders close to the seat of power surely have much less choice in matters than orders out in the sticks.
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I'm wondering if we'll finally get some clue to the identity or motivations of the Great Master...
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Not particularly surprised, but seriously, is playing a Chelaxian character who isn't actively fighting against House Thrune even supported anymore?
It's supported in any AP that isn't about fighting House Thrune, I imagine. There are many adventures and APs that are fitting for a Chelaxian character to be present. If you instead mean "When will I be able to play a Chelaxian fighting on the side of House Thrune?" then I think you'll be waiting some time - they've stated that there aren't many writers interested in writing an AP that explicitly evil, and that players show substantially reduced interest in it as well, so it'll likely not happen in an AP for some time. Perhaps an Adventure might be more possible?
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Not particularly surprised, but seriously, is playing a Chelaxian character who isn't actively fighting against House Thrune even supported anymore?It's supported in any AP that isn't about fighting House Thrune, I imagine. There are many adventures and APs that are fitting for a Chelaxian character to be present. If you instead mean "When will I be able to play a Chelaxian fighting on the side of House Thrune?" then I think you'll be waiting some time - they've stated that there aren't many writers interested in writing an AP that explicitly evil, and that players show substantially reduced interest in it as well, so it'll likely not happen in an AP for some time. Perhaps an Adventure might be more possible?
Fair enough. I admit, I was being somewhat hyperbolic.
But this whole thing was billed as being the start to a massive Inner Sea War, and when I think "war story", I think something along the lines of a Gundam series. A story where even the "bad guys" have a point and rationale behind their actions that reasonable people can get behind and which side is in the right is entirely a matter of perspective.
Instead, by all accounts, it's seemingly been narrowed down to Cheliax vs. Andoran (over Isgeri independence, at least initially) and there is absolutely zero ambiguity over who the good guys are and who the bad guys are.
I was hoping for "Gundam", instead we get "Star Wars". You are the heroic rebellion fighting for freedom. You're fighting against the tyranny of the evil empire. Stop thinking Darth Vader is kinda cool, you're supposed to fear/hate him.
I've been a fan of Cheliax from my first forays into the setting back in 1e, when I joined up with a local PFS lodge. They needed a dedicated healer, I chose an oracle - I enjoy a bit of edge/moral ambiguity to my characters and was reading A Song of Ice and Fire at the time, and so I took some inspiration from Melisandre the Red Witch and gave my oracle the flames mystery. Learn a bit more about the setting, weave in some Planescape Blood War/Law vs. Chaos influences, and before long the character's a LN Asmodeus-worshiper from Cheliax that is a committed demon hunter.
I played that character through retirement (13th level) and have watched 2e gradually strip away aspects of her characterization from basically day one. Can't be a neutral Asmodeus worshiper anymore. Demons aren't weak to Law damage anymore, just Good damage. Original 2e flame oracle made it so using any non-AoE targeted spell came with a flat failure chance once your curse got going because visual impairment was baked in - great for blasting, not so great for individual spot healing and hitting demons with dimensional anchor and banishment. Ironically, I'm among the few who actually likes the remastered oracle more.
Come the remaster, and Law/Chaos has been stripped away entirely and the only thing that matters anymore is Holy/Unholy - not blaming Paizo for WotC's OGL nonsense, but they've still gone out of their way to make Holy sanctification and wielding cold iron basically the only ways to specialize in demon slaying now. Guess I should get used to spamming the Needle Darts cantrip.
And now, it seriously feels as though Cheliax as it currently exists is on the verge of being written out of the setting. We have two upcoming APs tied to the Hellfire Crisis, with the first being centered on freeing Isger from Chelaxian influence. As to the second, I honestly don't know what else Cheliax has left to lose except House Thrune itself and/or its alliance with Hell, and either one of which would basically cripple Cheliax for years to come and functionally destroy one of my favorite parts of the setting.
If this were a long running war game, Rahadoum claiming the Arch of Aroden would have serious long-term strategic ramifications while leaving Cheliax itself intact, but that doesn't feel "climactic" enough to be the central focus of an entire AP's narrative arc. Likewise, I can't see Andoran successfully fending off a Chelaxian invasion to be sufficient - maintaining status quo (sans Isger) isn't going to be enough. They're going to hit Cheliax hard and Cheliax is going to lose something significant, and again, I don't think that they really have all that much left they can lose without fundamentally changing into something different.
On top of that, the bulk of my actual play experience has been in PFS and between not being able to worship Asmodeus (evil/unholy only, and now full-on restricted), not being able to have an imp familiar (boon-only as of PC2's release), and now having the Pathfinder Society itself take side in a war against the nation my character is still ostensibly loyal to, I have a hard time seeing how my character is even feasible anymore outside of a home game.
So yes, I was being somewhat hyperbolic. But only somewhat.
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Fair enough. I admit, I was being somewhat hyperbolic.
But this whole thing was billed as being the start to a massive Inner Sea War, and when I think "war story", I think something along the lines of a Gundam series. A story where even the "bad guys" have a point and rationale behind their actions that reasonable people can get behind and which side is in the right is entirely a matter of perspective.
My favorite Gundam series, 1985's Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, is about a heroic rebellion fighting against fascists who do things like fatally gassing civilians en masse in the name of suppressing dissent against their rule. There's no question about the morality of our protagonists and antagonists, but somehow it's one of the most acclaimed entries in the series.
Cheliax is a dystopian nightmare of surveillance, propaganda, and torture, where widespread racist slavery was recently 'replaced' with conscription and debt traps, ruled by a despotic regime in thrall to literal Hell - almost none of which is new to 2e. What kind of "reasonable both sides" do you want them to depict with the Chelish state, exactly?
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But this whole thing was billed as being the start to a massive Inner Sea War, and when I think "war story", I think something along the lines of a Gundam series. A story where even the "bad guys" have a point and rationale behind their actions that reasonable people can get behind and which side is in the right is entirely a matter of perspective.
I can't help but think you've missed the point of the Gundam franchise and most of the post World War One literary tradition in which it sits--it's not that the "bad guys" are justifiable, it's that modern great power war is unjustifiable. Because World War One especially but hardly uniquely among modern wars was a vast squandering of human life for the sake of a very few variously dynastic or imperial ambitions on every side.
I suspect Paizo has rather lost the plot here too, because you're right, the "good war" narrative that appears to be in play with Hellbreakers and its sequel draws much more from the narrative around World War Two than the narrative around its immediate predecessor, despite the Polygon article that prompted this thread noting World War One as the APs' inspiration. And it is only a narrative; World War Two was about as much about an imperialistic redivision of the world as World War One was. So the film comparison isn't to Star Wars, it's Saving Private Ryan. Andoran isn't a band of plucky rebels (though it cynically funds and arms such in other countries in order to further its own foreign policy objectives), it's a rising imperialist power.
As for the future of Cheliax, I'll lay down a marker for a Hellknight military coup against House Throne if the war goes badly enough, with the new government losing control of most of the country outside the Adivian valley variously to foreign military occupation, short-lived Firebrand projects, and incubating Great Master cults.
Would be cool if Norgorber took over Cheliax from right under Thrune lol
I am curious if the rationale behind Thrune's nationalization of the Hellknight orders is going to be expanded at all... I imagine it's going to be sold as something as simple as an attempt by Thrune to coalesce power. I hope that's not the case though, because by making them chelish orders in this particular moment will make the butchery of Breachill be seen as a Chelaxian action, which should burn whatever goodwill Cheliax has left with its non-allied neighbors. For a nation that serves Hell and thus Asmodeus, they could really take note from his game plan... They are really dense when considering their image and relationships, and other soft power notions.
I dunno. Seems very trivial for Thrune to avoid war here, she just has to like... Not nationalize them and stay quiet, since they don't represent Cheliax. So, I wonder if she actually wants to initiate it? Maybe she can argue that the defense of Breachill by Andoran forces against Chelaxian forces (the Hellknights in question) was an Andorian agression in Chelaxian territory, which... Can be seen as true with an odd legalese reading, I guess. If this can be sold properly as such, then maybe Taldor and Kyonin involving themselves in Andoran's behalf could make them look bad and as such, isolate Andoran in the war? So Thrune thinks she could have a chance? Sounds kinda flimsy, to be honest.
I hope there's some sort of devilish plan going on and the Chelaxian leadership isn't just going full in against a stacked deck, just because.
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I guess my main question is who is behind the Order of the Wrack trying to acquire the Warshards?
Are they just trying to acquire them for themselves and decided to make an incursion into Isger (Breachill) because they felt there were more there to be scooped up, or did Queen Abrogail II co-opt them somehow to go get the Warshards FOR her?
If the answer is the former and not the latter, I don't see a WWII analog here, really.
Germany (bad guys) invaded Poland which really started WWII. If the Hellknights screwed around with Isger on their own (without any prompting from House Thrune), it will be Andoran (good guys) who acted as a country and did the invading first.
Would be cool if Norgorber took over Cheliax from right under Thrune lol
I doubt that will happen. In the various APs Paizo has put together (especially Hell's Vengeance), there are PLENTY of powerful NPCs (ex-PC's) who now populate Cheliax. There have been no APs run in Nidal such that they have analogous powerful ex-PC's who now live there.
In short, if Nidal decided to pick a fight with the Thrunes, it would lose because there are more very powerful "heroes" who would love to kick Nidal's butt who live in Cheliax.
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I suspect Paizo has rather lost the plot here too, because you're right, the "good war" narrative that appears to be in play with Hellbreakers and its sequel draws much more from the narrative around World War Two than the narrative around its immediate predecessor, despite the Polygon article that prompted this thread noting World War One as the APs' inspiration. And it is only a narrative; World War Two was about as much about an imperialistic redivision of the world as World War One was. So the film comparison isn't to Star Wars, it's Saving Private Ryan. Andoran isn't a band of plucky rebels (though it cynically funds and arms such in other countries in order to further its own foreign policy objectives), it's a rising imperialist power.
See my post above about your WWII comparison.
I do agree with you, however, that I think Paizo is looking like it will fumble this.
One of the things that makes Golarion super-interesting is the fact there's an entire country who has such close ties with Hell.
If Paizo decides to get rid of House Thrune and devil-worshiping Cheliax, I think that would be a HUGE mistake.
Sure, they could make Tar-Baphon and the Isle of Terror the new "big bad," but who cares?
Pretty much EVERY other game has an undead big bad evil guy as one of its main villains.
Pathfinder would, meta-storywise, would become "just another setting."
::yawn::
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I guess my main question is who is behind the Order of the Wrack trying to acquire the Warshards?
I think the specific point of reference for the Warshards is the period of nuclear proliferation following WWII. We're just putting it at the front instead of the back here.
It's just the limiting reagent here is more "fissile material" than "expertise to make the weapon."
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I am curious if the rationale behind Thrune's nationalization of the Hellknight orders is going to be expanded at all... I imagine it's going to be sold as something as simple as an attempt by Thrune to coalesce power. I hope that's not the case though, because by making them chelish orders in this particular moment will make the butchery of Breachill be seen as a Chelaxian action, which should burn whatever goodwill Cheliax has left with its non-allied neighbors. For a nation that serves Hell and thus Asmodeus, they could really take note from his game plan... They are really dense when considering their image and relationships, and other soft power notions.
I think Cheliax could argue that, in response to some of the particularly damaging actions that Hellknights have taken recently, they're trying to take them under the control of a strong, centralizing force to ensure the Hellknights will face consequences for any similar actions on the future. It's probably not the most convincing thing in the world, but I think that sort of framing could be effective at convincing those who already had an incentive to believe them.
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Fair enough. I admit, I was being somewhat hyperbolic.
But this whole thing was billed as being the start to a massive Inner Sea War, and when I think "war story", I think something along the lines of a Gundam series. A story where even the "bad guys" have a point and rationale behind their actions that reasonable people can get behind and which side is in the right is entirely a matter of perspective.
My favorite Gundam series, 1985's Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam, is about a heroic rebellion fighting against fascists who do things like fatally gassing civilians en masse in the name of suppressing dissent against their rule. There's no question about the morality of our protagonists and antagonists, but somehow it's one of the most acclaimed entries in the series.
Cheliax is a dystopian nightmare of surveillance, propaganda, and torture, where widespread racist slavery was recently 'replaced' with conscription and debt traps, ruled by a despotic regime in thrall to literal Hell - almost none of which is new to 2e. What kind of "reasonable both sides" do you want them to depict with the Chelish state, exactly?
Aren't the villains you're referring to from Zeta Gundam ultimately reveled to be a part of the Earth Federation? The same Earth Federation that the heroes fought for in the original series, just a handful of years after winning the One Year War?
My familiarity with the Universal Century timeline is admittedly limited, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm mostly a Cosmic Era kid (along with a number of the other spinoffs), so let me frame this through a "Gundam SEED" lens since I know it significantly better. If you'll forgive a rough summary of the core conflict, for context:
Within the past few generations, human genetic engineering has become a thing. Some people are fine with it, a lot of people are very much not. A group known as Blue Cosmos picks up the anti-genetic engineering cause and starts pushing an agenda that swiftly goes full-on "Natural" supremacist, funding assassinations, terrorism, violence, etc. against people who are genetically engineered and those who create or otherwise support them, and in the process managing to worm their way into significant positions of political and military power, particularly within the Atlantic Federation (basically the US equivalent).
In response to this, many genetically engineered people - often labeled and/or self-identifying as "Coordinators" - start moving to the relatively new PLANT space colonies (or else to various nations on Earth that don't share Blue Cosmos' ideology). But while the PLANTs have a large enough Coordinator populations that they generally don't need to fear the kinds of prejudice and violence they see on Earth, the colonies are still ostensibly under the sovereignty of the same Earth nations that built them (such as the Atlantic Federation), leading to a gradual push toward increased autonomy from their Earth-bound parent nations, if not outright independence.
Then, in an incident so comparatively minor to what follows that it's never actually mentioned in the series itself, someone blows up a UN meeting, killing several world leaders in one fell swoop. The Atlantic Federation pounces on this and proposes the formation of the Earth Alliance - more or less a global NATO-style defensive pact - and gets most of the major powers on Earth to sign on (most notably the Eurasian Federation), then uses the fact that an influential Coordinator, scheduled to speak about colonial autonomy/independence at the UN meeting the day of the explosion, happened to survive because his flight was conveniently delayed as "evidence" of Coordinator involvement in the incident and, before anyone could stop them, launched a military assault on the PLANT colony of Junius 7, culminating in the use of a nuclear warhead that torn it apart, killing the more than 240,000 people that lived onboard. On Valentine's Day.
The PLANTs colonies respond in turn by declaring full independence from their Earth parent nations and join together militarily in the Zodiac Alliance of Freedom Treaty (usually abbreviated as ZAFT), then mass produce a new device known as Neutron Jammers that generates a field around it that suppresses nuclear fission reactions, and essentially seeds the Earth with untold millions of the things, burrowing them deep enough into the crust that removing them becomes infeasible.
This, along with Neutron Jammers in and around the PLANTs themselves and their growing fleet of spaceships, has the intended effect of rendering the Earth Alliance's vast stockpiles of nuclear weapons entirely unusable. It also has the unintended effect of crashing much of the Earth's energy infrastructure, which is at this point largely running on nuclear reactors, whereas the PLANTs are largely powered through massive solar arrays.
Now the (First) Bloody Valentine war is raging. The Earth Alliance expected to win a quick victory since they had the bulk of world's the existing military arms and infrastructure in their pocket, but ZAFT managed to hold them off long enough that the enhanced capabilities of their Coordinator population begin to give them an edge - they're having to build a military from more or less scratch, but they're advancing blindingly fast, and once they field the first mobile suits (designed specifically for Coordinator pilots, so as to be overwhelming and unwieldy for Naturals) the war starts to turn in their favor. Getting desperate, the Earth Alliance starts looking to develop their own, more heavily armed mobile suits to close the gap, and in particular puts intense pressure on the ostensibly neutral nation of Orb for help in doing so, leading to the secret production of the Archangel warship and five prototype "G-Weapons" which sets the original SEED series in motion.
There are bad people on both sides, but there are also good people on both sides.
The Atlantic Federation is infested with Blue Cosmos and proves all too willing to throw away the lives of both its own soldiers and those of its Eurasian Federation allies in order to increase its own power within the Earth Alliance and simply to kill more Coordinators, as well as perfectly happy to employ chemical enhancement and psychological conditioning on Natural children to create supersoldiers capable of matching the best Coordinators. At the same time, the (surviving) crew of the Archangel are part of the Atlantic Federation military and spend the first half of the series fighting for the Earth Alliance, until they are unknowingly ordered to serve as bait in a deathtrap and they see firsthand just how deep the Blue Cosmos rot has burrowed into their military leadership, ultimately leading them to defect and join up with Orb. And though the Earth Alliance is (rightfully) portrayed as probably the most unambiguously villainous faction in the series, we are nonetheless shown a number of figures that are either outright heroic in their own right or at the very least are more focused on resolving Earth's energy crisis than in Blue Cosmos's genocidal crusade against Coordinators.
On the other side, most ZAFT soldiers are fighting what they see as an existential threat, an enemy that wants everyone like them exterminated down to the last man, woman, and child, and has already shown themselves eager to use nuclear weapons on civilians in that pursuit. The majority of PLANT leadership is (initially) moderate, looking for little more than the recognition of their independence and an immediate end to the war, but there is also a growing militant faction that desires nothing short of complete victory no matter the cost, headed by a hardline Coordinator supremacist who (stupidly) backs the development of a "Neutron Jammer Canceller" so that ZAFT can begin developing their own nuclear-powered superweapons, which just puts the EA's nuclear arsenal back on the table when it inevitably gets leaked to Blue Cosmos.
That's the sort of conflict I'm looking for in a war story. You can have clear bad guys, you can have clear good guys, but I don't want the war itself to be structured around "those guys are bad, let's go beat them up about it." I want room for stories to be told from either side.
So to bring it back to the Hellfire Crisis, from Cheliax's perspective it's a matter of sovereignty. They sent in the Hellknights because they had reason to believe that Isgeri rebels in Breachill were hiding warshards, and by all accounts, they were correct - it was mentioned in one of the PaizoCon panels that the Hellbreakers League does indeed have a warshard. Andoran sending in first an observer to assess the situation and/or get in touch with the Hellbreakers and then a contingent of Eagle Knights to drive out the Order of the Rack is Andoran saying that Cheliax does not have sovereignty here - Isger is/should be a free, sovereign nation unto itself that Cheliax has no power to police.
All of that is fine so far - Hellbreakers is ostensibly about the fight for Isgeri independence, after all.
What I'm saying is, make Andoran go farther - the full French Revolutionary mindset. They're starting with Isger/Cheliax due to proximity and shared regional history, but they've decided it's time to do away with monarchy as a governmental system all across the Inner Sea, at the point of a sword if necessary, and are ramping up revolutionary propaganda to that end.
Now there's an angle beyond just beating up Cheliax for doing Cheliax things: Empire vs Republic. Liberty vs Security. Centralized Power Structures vs Decentralized Power Structures. Put simply, Order vs Chaos.
The entire thesis of Cheliax is that it's a nation that traded freedom for security. People can legitimately hate House Thrune, while still thinking that the devil they know is better than the devil they don't, and that the Andoran army marching across the border expecting to be welcomed as liberators as they upend the government that has kept this nation comparatively stable for decades may be a threat to their livelihoods. And even other nations that have no love for Cheliax (namely Taldor) may be wary of Andoran seeding anti-monarchy ideals among their populace.
I can't help but think you've missed the point of the Gundam franchise and most of the post World War One literary tradition in which it sits--it's not that the "bad guys" are justifiable, it's that modern great power war is unjustifiable. Because World War One especially but hardly uniquely among modern wars was a vast squandering of human life for the sake of a very few variously dynastic or imperial ambitions on every side.
I'm very aware of Gundam's central thesis. In general, I very much agree with it.
But we're not discussing the morality of a war in the real world. We're discussing how a fictional war is framed in-universe to create a compelling narrative.
War is never justifiable, but that doesn't stop those who engage in it from crafting arguments attempting to justify their actions. All I'm looking for the Chelaxian side of the Hellfire Crisis to have a compelling argument to bring to the table beyond "We're the evil empire. Are you expecting us to NOT do evil empire things?"
I am curious if the rationale behind Thrune's nationalization of the Hellknight orders is going to be expanded at all... I imagine it's going to be sold as something as simple as an attempt by Thrune to coalesce power. I hope that's not the case though, because by making them chelish orders in this particular moment will make the butchery of Breachill be seen as a Chelaxian action, which should burn whatever goodwill Cheliax has left with its non-allied neighbors. For a nation that serves Hell and thus Asmodeus, they could really take note from his game plan... They are really dense when considering their image and relationships, and other soft power notions.
I dunno. Seems very trivial for Thrune to avoid war here, she just has to like... Not nationalize them and stay quiet, since they don't represent Cheliax. So, I wonder if she actually wants to initiate it? Maybe she can argue that the defense of Breachill by Andoran forces against Chelaxian forces (the Hellknights in question) was an Andorian agression in Chelaxian territory, which... Can be seen as true with an odd legalese reading, I guess. If this can be sold properly as such, then maybe Taldor and Kyonin involving themselves in Andoran's behalf could make them look bad and as such, isolate Andoran in the war? So Thrune thinks she could have a chance? Sounds kinda flimsy, to be honest.
I hope there's some sort of devilish plan going on and the Chelaxian leadership isn't just going full in against a stacked deck, just because.
By all accounts it was Andoran's intention to frame their actions in Isger as a proxy war, since the Eagle Knights are also a quasi-independent military order that aren't technically under Andoran's control, thus allowing Andoran to distance itself diplomatically.
Abby nationalizing the Hellknights pretty much puts a stop to that. She's making a firm statement that the Hellknight orders (to say nothing of Isger itself) belong to Cheliax and that if Andoran wants a fight, they're fighting with her directly.
How that plays diplomatically depends on a lot of factors that we don't know yet, I think. Hellknights slaughtering innocents while engaging in a policing action is bad, but Andoran invading to kick them out is a violation of Chelaxian sovereignty (at least in their eyes).
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Aren't the villains you're referring to from Zeta Gundam ultimately reveled to be a part of the Earth Federation? The same Earth Federation that the heroes fought for in the original series, just a handful of years after winning the One Year War?
It's a conflict between the Titans, a Federation-created security force that has spiraled out of control into a fascist group that answers to no one but themselves, and the AEUG, a virtuous rebel group opposed to them who never once really do anything morally questionable in the show's 50-episode runtime.
What I'm saying is, make Andoran go farther - the full French Revolutionary mindset. They're starting with Isger/Cheliax due to proximity and shared regional history, but they've decided it's time to do away with monarchy as a governmental system all across the Inner Sea, at the point of a sword if necessary, and are ramping up revolutionary propaganda to that end.
This would be an absurd left-field swerve, given the total lack of such fervor anywhere in PF2 Andoran so far. It feels like idiot plotting to me; the idea that a nation presented as pretty reasonable and well-led would abruptly decide that everyone around them deserves a crusade seems like artificial, implausible "conflict for conflict's sake" writing to me.
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Abby nationalizing the Hellknights pretty much puts a stop to that. She's making a firm statement that the Hellknight orders (to say nothing of Isger itself) belong to Cheliax and that if Andoran wants a fight, they're fighting with her directly.
Pardon?
I am not familiar with any source that says Abrogail did or is definitely going to "nationalize" any Hellknight order.
Link plz.
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I am not familiar with any source that says Abrogail did or is definitely going to "nationalize" any Hellknight order.
This was in one of the PaizoCon panels about the meta-event. There might be a replay on Paizo's twitch?
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I have only the info from this thread, but I feel like Abby does not want a new "Andoran (or anyone) prevents Hellknights from doing Cheliax' will" such as seems to have happened in Breachill.
So, she makes it official that Hellknights belong to Cheliax so that attacking them is attacking the country, which is an act of open war.
I guess she feels this should be a strong enough deterrent that the situation will not happen again, because no one wants an open war with Cheliax with the threat of the Whispering Tyrant lurking so close.
The thing is no one ever wants an open war. But they still happen.
The actions of the PCs might actually be what precipitates this open war that will kill thousands of innocents and serve nobody's interests except those of Tar-Baphon.
Not sounding that heroic right now.
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Abby nationalizing the Hellknights pretty much puts a stop to that. She's making a firm statement that the Hellknight orders (to say nothing of Isger itself) belong to Cheliax and that if Andoran wants a fight, they're fighting with her directly.Pardon?
I am not familiar with any source that says Abrogail did or is definitely going to "nationalize" any Hellknight order.
Link plz.
It's mentioned in one of the PaizoCon panels, which should be archived on Paizo's Twitch channel at the moment, though I imagine they'll make it to Youtube sooner or later.
In the meantime, someone on Reddit did a live writeup: Link
General idea is that Abrogail nationalizes the Hellknight orders in response to the Eagle Knights forcing the Order of the Rack out of Breachill. Not all of them submit to her authority - the Orders of the Torrent and Nail are called out as such specifically - but those that do are now official agents of the Chelaxian state, rather than their previous quasi-independent status.
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Torrent and Nail are based out of Cheliax, so it kinda make senses they would say no.
Still curious about Scourge, who should oppose this, but maybe not publicly, and Gate who is usually the other "screw politic" order.
and maybe Crux, dilemma between hating other Hellknights and liking the idea of being a death-squad again?
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Sounds like fertile ground for Hellknight vs Hellknight action on a wide and complex scale. Which is indeed far more interesting than the current status quo AND good cause for giving us a Hellknight book.
Because now you can fully play Hellknights fighting against Cheliax / Thrune.
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I am not familiar with any source that says Abrogail did or is definitely going to "nationalize" any Hellknight order.This was in one of the PaizoCon panels about the meta-event. There might be a replay on Paizo's twitch?This nice person took notes on everything said there, including nationalizing Hellknights.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1ktqgwy/paizocon_2025_hellfi re_crisis_live_writeup/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name= web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
The Magic Sword has been providing this awesome service to the community for many years now. A great many heartfelt thank you to them.
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I am not familiar with any source that says Abrogail did or is definitely going to "nationalize" any Hellknight order.This was in one of the PaizoCon panels about the meta-event. There might be a replay on Paizo's twitch?This nice person took notes on everything said there, including nationalizing Hellknights.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1ktqgwy/paizocon_2025_hellfi re_crisis_live_writeup/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name= web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Thank you for that link. I knew there was a panel that talked about the upcoming Hellfire Crisis, but I hadn't seen or heard anything from it.
General idea is that Abrogail nationalizes the Hellknight orders in response to the Eagle Knights forcing the Order of the Rack out of Breachill. Not all of them submit to her authority - the Orders of the Torrent and Nail are called out as such specifically - but those that do are now official agents of the Chelaxian state, rather than their previous quasi-independent status.
I'm wondering how the Order of the Godclaw will react to Abrogail's attempt to nationalize them with the rest of the Hellknight orders?
For sure my Hellknight Anti-paladin's order (new Hellknight order based in Westcrown that Abrogail sanctioned as a reward for my character at the end of the Hell's Vengeance AP) would happily do as Abrogail commanded.
Community & Social Media Specialist
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I just want to clarify since multiple comments got flagged here. It's not bad or against our guidelines to share writeups made by fans who watched PaizoCon! It's just sharing information for people who missed it or can't watched. This is a fair thing to do, and I'm leaving the comments.
And for all those wanting to watch for yourselves, yes the videos are on Twitch now, but Rue is also working to get all the individual panels on YouTube! We appreciate your patience!
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Shining Kingdoms reveals that Gorum's death has contributed to Andoran becoming increasingly bellicose. Thus far, there have been a few respected senior military officials pointing out all of the ways that's a problem (i.e. increased militarization requires mandatory conscription and other trampling of freedoms), and Andira has listened thus far, but she's in her third and final term as Supreme Elect and is becoming concerned with her legacy. She could be pushed if there's an inciting incident, which we know there will.
From a meta standpoint, it makes perfect sense. Cheliax isn't quite in a position to throw its weight around if it doesn't have to, and if it was the aggressor Andoran would gain a lot of support because everyone would want this over quickly and nobody wants the devils to get a win. Andoran being the aggressor changes the dynamic, because a lot of countries aren't too sure about its political system and because it already has few qualms about asserting itself. Oh yeah, and there's a super lich who is going to be a huge headache soon, so starting something unnecessary now will not be well received.
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I mean, "getting Isger out from under the thumb of Cheliax" is itself a noble goal. Like Isger is literally "not part of Cheliax" so it's reasonable to think that they shouldn't be as beholden to Thrune as they have been of late.
Probably if I was to anticipate an endgame here it's less that Thrune is deposed or Cheliax is under the control of Hell itself or alternatively good people, but that Isger becomes an independent state/satellite state of Andoran.
From a meta standpoint, it makes perfect sense. Cheliax isn't quite in a position to throw its weight around if it doesn't have to, and if it was the aggressor Andoran would gain a lot of support because everyone would want this over quickly and nobody wants the devils to get a win. Andoran being the aggressor changes the dynamic, because a lot of countries aren't too sure about its political system and because it already has few qualms about asserting itself. Oh yeah, and there's a super lich who is going to be a huge headache soon, so starting something unnecessary now will not be well received.
and the Glorious Reclamation fiasco is still relatively recent, it could weight in many people decisions/indecisions.
I mean, "getting Isger out from under the thumb of Cheliax" is itself a noble goal. Like Isger is literally "not part of Cheliax" so it's reasonable to think that they shouldn't be as beholden to Thrune as they have been of late.
Probably if I was to anticipate an endgame here it's less that Thrune is deposed or Cheliax is under the control of Hell itself or alternatively good people, but that Isger becomes an independent state/satellite state of Andoran.
Among other things, that can bring two questions/scenarios to mind:
Can House Thrune exist/survive without Infernal Cheliax?and
Can Infernal Cheliax exist without House Thrune?
It’s only trivial if you assume that Andoran doesn’t want war, which seems like a bad assumption. After all, they’re the ones actively trying to destabilize Isger and get it out from under Cheliax. A scenario where Cheliax doesn’t go to war is one where Andoran wins anyway because they just keep escalating the situation.
And I don’t think it’s “flimsy” that Taldor and Kyonin aren’t going to support an offensive war against Cheliax, given that they don’t stand to gain anything from it and both of them have bigger concerns. They probably do get involved eventually, but only after the conflict spirals out of control and ends up dragging in everybody through cascading alliances. (Which is what I always assumed to be what the WWI comparison was about, not the tone.)
Maybe I explained myself poorly - I think Andoran wants war, and I believe that Cheliax is going to be on the losing side of this conflict. I also believe that this should be predictable by Chelaxian leadership, and so I imagine there might be a secret plan going on because nationalizing the Hellknight orders is essentially involving themselves in a conflict that should be clear that they will lose.
Maybe I'm letting my knowledge over the meta-context muddle my reading of the event, though, and it's not that obvious for chelaxian leadership that they will be on the losing side here.
As for Kyonin and Taldor, maybe? I know the leadership between those three nations are essentially allied, though, and they're mostly good natured. Seems very practical to use this chance to dogpile on Cheliax to take down a peg the dangerous evil regime, and also assert themselves.
Shining Kingdoms reveals that Gorum's death has contributed to Andoran becoming increasingly bellicose.
I haven't read Shining Kingdoms yet and this before Gorum died, but there was a bit on the Highhelm book about a Twilight Talon attempting to manipulate Highhelm into a more aggressive stance, even if it required to sabotage them or something?
I'm wondering if Andoran's democratic zeal is something that will cause trouble on the Inner Sea after they establish themselves as one of the greatest powers in the region... Probably not, but imo it would be fun to see it.
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This would be an absurd left-field swerve, given the total lack of such fervor anywhere in PF2 Andoran so far. It feels like idiot plotting to me; the idea that a nation presented as pretty reasonable and well-led would abruptly decide that everyone around them deserves a crusade seems like artificial, implausible "conflict for conflict's sake" writing to me.
IIRC Andoran like any country has multiple political factions with different ideologies. There are in fact people who want to spread "glorious revolution," all over Avistan to convert everyone into republics. But they're a small minority of no real power at the moment. However one of the consequences of the Godsrain is individuals and groups who were previously insignificant players getting their hands on Mythic Power and radically disrupting the status quo...
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I mean, "getting Isger out from under the thumb of Cheliax" is itself a noble goal. Like Isger is literally "not part of Cheliax" so it's reasonable to think that they shouldn't be as beholden to Thrune as they have been of late.
Probably if I was to anticipate an endgame here it's less that Thrune is deposed or Cheliax is under the control of Hell itself or alternatively good people, but that Isger becomes an independent state/satellite state of Andoran.
We know the fight for Isgeri independence is the focus of the Hellbreakers AP - the question is whether that's the focus of the Hellfire Crisis writ large or only the focus of "Phase I".
If Hellbreakers ends with Isger no longer under Chelaxian control, what does the Phase II "sequel" AP focus on, if not a direct attempt to take down House Thrune itself? And what does Cheliax look like in that AP's wake? That's my concern.