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Yeah, Rahadoum's chance to potentially get some hits in on not only a belligerent neighbor, but also the nation in the Inner Sea *most* beholden to one of the gods feels too juicy to ignore. I've been vocal about wanting to hear about the Rahadoumi navy for years - this is a chance for them to shine! (Or failing that, we can at least get some fun spy games out of it all).
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I am thinking that whoever wins, Abrogail II will survive through it even if Cheliax's contract with Hell ends up being nulled in the end because I kinda doubt Cheliax will completely fall as nation. Like maybe they manage to put themselves in "strong" position but lose their biggest asset which can be a pr victory as well.
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On the other hand, if Cheliax's eye is taken off the ball Molthune has historically eyed it hungrily, kept at bay only by the risk of pissing off their Thrune backers, and might take Andoran up on an offer to "acknowledge their historical territorial claims" and let them run rampant if it opens up a second front Cheliax have to fight along.
I take it you're talking about Isger here? Asking for clarification, as the name appears nowhere in your post.
I'm not sure an Andoran-Molthune alliance premised on giving Molthune Isger as booty works all that well. For one thing, Andoran probably wants Isger for itself to the extent of seeing it as the point of the whole war. For another, the strategic benefit to Andoran of letting Molthuni forces into Isger isn't all that great. Andoran can logistically to support armies in Isger via the wide and flat vales of the Foam River between the Aspodel and Five Kings Mountains, while Molthune can be basically held off forever by quite small forces in the passes of the Menador Mountains (which define its entire border with Cheliax and Isger) and even if these are forced they bottleneck the delivery of supplies. For a third, Molthune has attempted a hostile takeover of Isger before and lost an army for its trouble. Given its new commitments to, and marked enthusiasm for, the Encarthan Alliance (Molthune considered itself at war with the Whispering Tyrant and had suffered reverses at "sea," making the alliance an attractive prospect), I don't see it risking its assets like that.
If anything, I could see a Cheliax-Molthune alliance premised on giving Molthune Isger as booty working much better (particularly if Cheliax invites Molthune in to help repel Andoren aggression). Cheliax would be giving up control over the overland trade route with Druma, but otherwise would lose nothing in the exchange. Besides that trade route, Isger is primarily valuable to Cheliax as a buffer between itself and the Whispering Tyrant, and whether that buffer is controlled by a puppet government in Eleder or by Canorate makes little difference to Egorian. From Molthune's perspective, it wouldn't have to force the passes anymore (except insofar as they're held by monsters or that one ultra-powerful cleric of Urgathoa who's skulking about), could rely on the delivery of Chelish supplies via the Coneria River, and could occupy large parts of Isger with little resistance until it meets Andoren armies in the southeast. A Cheliax-Molthune alliance would open the interesting narrative possibility of an Andoran-Oprak alliance, with Oprak taking the opportunity to liberate ancestral goblin lands in Isger and being able to open up a front against Nidal which otherwise is practically unassailable and disinterested in committing to the conflict (n.b., it appears the Oprak-Nidal nonaggression pact expired in 4722). Oprak also has irredentist claims in Ravounel, albeit nowhere near as recently-founded as its claims in Isger.
Speaking of Isger, Alseta's Ring is strategically important for both sides' diplomacy and logistics. For Andoran, it helps get diplomats into Ravounel to keep it neutral or get it to change sides (or to coup its government and replace it with a more Andoran-friendly one), and supplies into Katapesh to support the Firebrands there; for Cheliax, it helps mobilize whatever forces Ravounel can provide from the distant rear to the front, and likewise helps it support (or get support from) the Katapeshi government.
And just for s+$+s and giggles, let's throw in Nex throwing some diplomatic (and covert magical) support for one faction, and Geb supporting the other just so that Nex doesn't get a return on its investment. For fun, Nex might not appreciate the destruction of Cheliax, another major power on Golarion with extraplanar connections, while I think Geb (both the nation and the wizard) would get a kick out of getting a toehold in Avistan and positioning itself as an ally against Tar-Baphon if Cheliax can't hold up its alliances - one undead nation supporting the enemies of another.
Nex also probably doesn't want a revolutionary republic on its northern border, and could align with Cheliax on the basis of supporting Katapesh's government (which doesn't make trouble for Nex and leaves it with the free hand to look south that it wants).
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I am thinking that whoever wins, Abrogail II will survive through it even if Cheliax's contract with Hell ends up being nulled in the end because I kinda doubt Cheliax will completely fall as nation. Like maybe they manage to put themselves in "strong" position but lose their biggest asset which can be a pr victory as well.
In our Saturday night game, our characters are going to try to bring Isger into the Cheliax "fold" on a permanent basis.
If we're successful, Cheliax will only get bigger.
We may even try to convince Nidal to de-stabilize Ravounel, so if it falls, Cheliax can take it back without breaking the Kintargo contract.
Not sure where Cheliax would look to expand after that.
Maybe this new Inner Sea conflict would provide the perfect opportunity to deal with Andoran, or perhaps Rahadoum? Somehow incorporating Molthune would also be attractive as long as Cheliax give guarantees to Nirmathas that they will be left alone as long as Nirmathas keeps to itself.
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Yeah, Rahadoum's chance to potentially get some hits in on not only a belligerent neighbor, but also the nation in the Inner Sea *most* beholden to one of the gods feels too juicy to ignore. I've been vocal about wanting to hear about the Rahadoumi navy for years - this is a chance for them to shine! (Or failing that, we can at least get some fun spy games out of it all).
At the very least, Rahadoum accomplishing the objective "we control the ̶A̶r̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶A̶r̶o̶d̶e̶n̶ Hespereth Strait" seems like an achievable objective for them.
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Yeah, Rahadoum's chance to potentially get some hits in on not only a belligerent neighbor, but also the nation in the Inner Sea *most* beholden to one of the gods feels too juicy to ignore. I've been vocal about wanting to hear about the Rahadoumi navy for years - this is a chance for them to shine! (Or failing that, we can at least get some fun spy games out of it all).At the very least, Rahadoum accomplishing the objective "we control the ̶A̶r̶c̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶A̶r̶o̶d̶e̶n̶ Hespereth Strait" seems like an achievable objective for them.
Only if it does well enough in the war, and Andoran poorly enough, that Andoran can't object too strongly come the peace talks. Andoran wants a guarantee of free passage, not to replace Chelish tolls with Rahadoumi ones.
That is to say, yes, achievable, but also difficult.
I’m really hoping that Paizo hired an international relations and/or strategic studies consultant for this. I’ve been waiting for a long time to see some broad(er) power-moves between inner sea countries. While I don’t expect everything in real life IR or Strat studies scholarship to be applicable, I think a book that borrowed from the major IR theories in its explaination of what’s going on would be glorious.
Think of it. We have four?! IR levels of analysis here: individual, state, system, AND cosmic (extraplanar)!!!
They could introduce new scholarly factions of International relations scholars that mirror the budding paradigms and theories of WWI and the Interwar period before WWII. Heck, I’d even go so far as to argue that Golarion’s international system is more advanced than what earth’s was in pre- and post WWI so it would make sense that later theoretical schools would already be in development in today’s Golarian.
IR Realism and Liberal internationalism would obviously take precedence among Golarian’s IR debates, but so too would more critical theories and approaches such as world systems theory, constructivism, feminism, and more!
The presence of magic and cosmic ‘great powers’ would also lend itself to IR frameworks that aren’t really reputable in earth’s understanding of IR. There are entire heavens and held duking it out across the multiverse and maybe most of Golarian’s IR is best explained as the result of all this greater cosmic conflict.
This is a chance for Paizo to really step up its game and distinguish itself from the poorer worldbuilding of other settings.
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I’m really hoping that Paizo hired an international relations and/or strategic studies consultant for this. I’ve been waiting for a long time to see some broad(er) power-moves between inner sea countries. While I don’t expect everything in real life IR or Strat studies scholarship to be applicable, I think a book that borrowed from the major IR theories in its explaination of what’s going on would be glorious.
Think of it. We have four?! IR levels of analysis here: individual, state, system, AND cosmic (extraplanar)!!!
They could introduce new scholarly factions of International relations scholars that mirror the budding paradigms and theories of WWI and the Interwar period before WWII. Heck, I’d even go so far as to argue that Golarion’s international system is more advanced than what earth’s was in pre- and post WWI so it would make sense that later theoretical schools would already be in development in today’s Golarian.
IR Realism and Liberal internationalism would obviously take precedence among Golarian’s IR debates, but so too would more critical theories and approaches such as world systems theory, constructivism, feminism, and more!
The presence of magic and cosmic ‘great powers’ would also lend itself to IR frameworks that aren’t really reputable in earth’s understanding of IR. There are entire heavens and held duking it out across the multiverse and maybe most of Golarian’s IR is best explained as the result of all this greater cosmic conflict.
This is a chance for Paizo to really step up its game and distinguish itself from the poorer worldbuilding of other settings.
I dunno, the Polygon article doesn't really raise hopes for the amount and extent of theoretical understanding at play. That said, there is time yet, if only just.
I take it you're talking about Isger here? Asking for clarification, as the name appears nowhere in your post.
I was, yes. By the time I realised it was too late to edit the post.
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Has Andoran done any backing of the Nirmathan cause? I could imagine Molthune/Nirmathas becoming a proxy war, but admittedly that's a corner of the setting I know very little about.
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Has Andoran done any backing of the Nirmathan cause? I could imagine Molthune/Nirmathas becoming a proxy war, but admittedly that's a corner of the setting I know very little about.
Yes! Before the Whispering Tyrant gained command of Lake Encarthan, Andoran did a brisk trade smuggling weapons to Nirmathas via Druman shipping. That trade was significantly curtailed by the Whispering Tyrant, but may have recently gained a new lease on life through the Encarthan Alliance.
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I don't expect the people sworn to an otherworldly ideal of order above any mortal nation to all neatly fall in line when one queen demands it.I do, at least at first. They may, however, find their consciences (sic.) should Cheliax's armies suffer major reverses later in the war than the first few weeks/months, when the impulse to defend the nation in its hour of need is at its strongest. The burgfrieden did eventually break down, after all—just in 1917–18 after victory had become impossible rather than in 1914 when principle could have prevailed but did not.
Just a note that IIRC the cold war between the Scourge and Abrogail is orchestrated by a cult that will definitely put as much oil on this fire as it can.
It might be enough to actually have the war split them rather than unite them.
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I do wonder what sort of war crimes, evil actions, and villianous behavior Andoran will do if we are going the ww1 route where all sides were bastards. All the powers were Imperialist bastards who did plenty of war crimes and horrible stuff.
Cheliax is obvious but Andoran will need to do some evil, maybe they fireball innocent chelixan villages going "you are all devil worshipers so die!"
Now if this was Geb v Nex then that would be fine, both Nex and Geb are unethical wizards are allowed to do what they please.
First, I am pretty sure Andoran will be the aggressor, which never looks good.
Second, I totally expect Andoran to quickly be on the losing side and have Tar-Baphon propose the help of his undead armies against the hellish legions of Cheliax.
Especially if Molthune sides with Cheliax.
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Not to mention he does hate Andoren and Cheliax was founded by Adoren.
What? No it wasn't. Aroden was long since a god by the time the Taldan Armies of Exploration established Cheliax as a Taldan province. Independent Cheliax was founded by Aspex the Even-Tongued, not by Aroden. Cheliax was devoutly and proudly Arodenite, but that's hardly the same as being founded by Aroden. Aroden founded Absalom.
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Not to mention he does hate Andoren and Cheliax was founded by Adoren.What? No it wasn't. Aroden was long since a god by the time the Taldan Armies of Exploration established Cheliax as a Taldan province. Independent Cheliax was founded by Aspex the Even-Tongued, not by Aroden. Cheliax was devoutly and proudly Arodenite, but that's hardly the same as being founded by Aroden. Aroden founded Absalom.
True but Cheliax is were Aroden was supposed to come back in all his glory ;-)
I think we will have this sides:
Cheliax, Ravounel, Nidal, Isger, Katapesh goverment, Mzali, Shackles, Korvosa, Molthune, Oprak
vs
Andoran, Nimrathas, Katapesh Firebrands, Senghor, Vidrian, Nimrathans, Kraggodan, Five King Mountains
I don't see the Shackles teaming up with Cheliax.
Also, many nations and groups would probably stay neutral until their opposite take sides, with some "play/trade with all sides" types in between.
This is also asuming A vs B, not some A vs B vs C thing.
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I think we will have this sides:
Cheliax, Ravounel, Nidal, Isger, Katapesh goverment, Mzali, Shackles, Korvosa, Molthune, Oprak
vs
Andoran, Nimrathas, Katapesh Firebrands, Senghor, Vidrian, Nimrathans, Kraggodan, Five King Mountains
I don't see the Shackles teaming up with Cheliax.
Also, many nations and groups would probably stay neutral until their opposite take sides, with some "play/trade with all sides" types in between.
This is also asuming A vs B, not some A vs B vs C thing.
For the Shackles, maybe Cheliax doesn't do a full alliance but instead offers the pirate lords letters of marque that lets their ships through the Arch of Aroden so they can prey on Andoran shipping? Privateering like that was pretty common back in the 1700s, so it would make sense that nations might do it in Golarion as well. Would make for some fun mini adventures as well, where the PCs can engage in ship combat!
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For the Shackles, maybe Cheliax doesn't do a full alliance but instead offers the pirate lords letters of marque that lets their ships through the Arch of Aroden so they can prey on Andoran shipping? Privateering like that was pretty common back in the 1700s, so it would make sense that nations might do it in Golarion as well. Would make for some fun mini adventures as well, where the PCs can engage in ship combat!I think we will have this sides:
Cheliax, Ravounel, Nidal, Isger, Katapesh goverment, Mzali, Shackles, Korvosa, Molthune, Oprak
vs
Andoran, Nimrathas, Katapesh Firebrands, Senghor, Vidrian, Nimrathans, Kraggodan, Five King Mountains
I don't see the Shackles teaming up with Cheliax.
Also, many nations and groups would probably stay neutral until their opposite take sides, with some "play/trade with all sides" types in between.
This is also asuming A vs B, not some A vs B vs C thing.
Would still be weird for the Shackles to side with Cheliax... and Cheliax probably wouldn't be the only one using privateers and mercenaries.
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For the Shackles, maybe Cheliax doesn't do a full alliance but instead offers the pirate lords letters of marque that lets their ships through the Arch of Aroden so they can prey on Andoran shipping? Privateering like that was pretty common back in the 1700s, so it would make sense that nations might do it in Golarion as well. Would make for some fun mini adventures as well, where the PCs can engage in ship combat!I think we will have this sides:
Cheliax, Ravounel, Nidal, Isger, Katapesh goverment, Mzali, Shackles, Korvosa, Molthune, Oprak
vs
Andoran, Nimrathas, Katapesh Firebrands, Senghor, Vidrian, Nimrathans, Kraggodan, Five King Mountains
I don't see the Shackles teaming up with Cheliax.
Also, many nations and groups would probably stay neutral until their opposite take sides, with some "play/trade with all sides" types in between.
This is also asuming A vs B, not some A vs B vs C thing.
Pretty sure both sides would make this offer to individual captains as a matter of course, that many would take either side's offer, that many would take neither side's offer, and that some few would take both sides' offers and pretend to both sides that they were exclusively loyal. And that the Pirate Council and Hurricane Queen would otherwise maintain official neutrality, while doing little to nothing to curb individual captains from doing as they pleased, as long as they weren't prominent members of the said Pirate Council or overlords of notable harbors.
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Yeah "we're going to risk our ships and our people to participate in a far-away war that doesn't really concern us and does not stand to make us wealthier" is a very out of character thing for pirates to do.
Cheliax might offer them letters of marque to prey on Andoran ships in the Arcadian Ocean, but they didn't really need permission to do that anyway on an individual captain-by-captain basis. At the same time, Andoran might make the same offer to Shackles captains.
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I think the difference between Andoran and Cheliax here is that Cheliax controls the Arch of Aroden, so they can let the pirates into the Inner Sea on the agreement that they only prey on ships under the Andoran flag. If the pirates wanted to take the same offer from Andoran, they'd have to either sail all the way around Garund to enter the Inner Sea from the eastern side (and then back again to return with their loot), or force their way through the Arch on their own. As such, aligning with Cheliax here makes much more sense for the pirates.
As for why pirates would risk their lives for Cheliax, I assume that the deal would be that the pirates could keep most of all of the booty they stole from the Andoran ships and then drop off any Andoran officers to the nearest Chelaxian port for a nice fat bounty. Money talks, and it speaks Infernal!
I could definitely see Cheliax handing out letters of marque, between Andoran's long-time privateering and the possibility of new trouble coming from Rahadoum. Of course, the Free Captains are never of one mind about anything, so odds are good that just as many of them target Chelish vessels out of ideology or opportunism.
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Cheliax might offer them letters of marque to prey on Andoran ships in the Arcadian Ocean, but they didn't really need permission to do that anyway on an individual captain-by-captain basis.
Immunity from capture or destruction by the Chelish (and, presumbaly, allied) navies is mighty attractive on its own, even before getting into prize rewards and bounties a la Jerdane.
And now for something completely different: what do the relevant alliance systems, insofar as they exist, call themselves? Is, say, "Egorian-Pangolais Axis," or "Anti-Firebrands Pact" a tad too on the nose? "United Nations" is nice and generic.
Actually, it'd probably be helpful to define what the relevant alliance systems are. I count at least four. The Encarthan Alliance consists of all the powers bordering Lake Encarthan (clockwise from 12: Ustalav, Razmiran, Kyonin, Druma, Molthune, Nirmathas, and the Knights of Lastwall [read: Vellumis and its hinterland in the Gravelands]), bound to various levels of commitment defined in a single treaty. The Four Queens of the lower Sellen consist of Kyonin, Galt, Taldor, and Andoran, bound in no formal commitment but widely seen as aligned. Cheliax maintains a bilateral treaty (mutual defense pact or protectorate) with every other country in the Old Cheliax metaregion: Ravounel, Nidal, and Isger. Ravounel and Vidrian have pledged mutual defense, and each maintains a similar bilateral agreement with a neighbor: Irim/Mirivenn for Ravounel, Senghor for Vidrian.
I would think that the Shackles captains would want to avoid the Inner Sea itself, since Andoran is a naval power (moreso than Cheliax probably) and the pirate's solution to "they have superior numbers" is discretion and the fact that the ocean is very large.
Mostly I imagine the targeted bounties will be anything coming and going from Andoran's overseas colonies.
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"they have superior numbers"
Not necessarily all that superior. Andoran has about a hundred ninety thousand people accounted for; the Shackles have about a hundred twenty-five thousand. Both countries have disproportionately large portions of their populations at sea—Andoran because of a centralized naval building and mobilzation program and the Shackles because so many people own boats. Andoran's main advantage is not numbers, but centralized command and control, as opposed to the Shackles' inability to compel obedience.
The Four Queens of the lower Sellen consist of Kyonin, Galt, Taldor, and Andoran, bound in no formal commitment but widely seen as aligned.
Four Queens? Kyonin has a queen, Galt and Andoran do not, and Taldor has a grand princess or empress depending on the writer(not sure why they are an empire but no emperor/empress). Or has Andoran and Galt became a constitutional monarchy, if so who are those lovely ladies? :P
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The Four Queens of the lower Sellen consist of Kyonin, Galt, Taldor, and Andoran, bound in no formal commitment but widely seen as aligned.Four Queens? Kyonin has a queen, Galt and Andoran do not, and Taldor has a grand princess or empress depending on the writer(not sure why they are an empire but no emperor/empress). Or has Andoran and Galt became a constitutional monarchy, if so who are those lovely ladies? :P
The epithet comes from Legends, it's quite canonical, inaccuracies aside. One assumes Marusek and Drannoch resent its anti-republican implications, while Eutropia resents the denigration of her rank.
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One imagines that the Shackles are not that excited to fight on the side of Cheliax, since perhaps the most exciting thing they have had to brag about in the last decade was "sinking that Cheliax fleet when they tried to invade us in 4712 after the Hurricane King betrayed us."
Also the alliances here are complex. The Shackles are against Vidrian and Vidrian is allied with Ravounel which is allied with Cheliax, but Vidrian wants very little to do with Cheliax and Ravounel's isn't really that interested into helping their former masters.
So I would say that the Hurricane Queen would declare official neutrality and allow her captains to just take whichever prizes they set their eyes on.
Nidal is on Cheliax's side, but will do as little as possible to not get Cheliax (or anyone else) against them. Bringing up Nidal is an example of how most of Cheliax's allies are not anybody who can or will help them very much.
Nidal will probably send enough shadowcasters to keep tabs on what is going on to report back home, and no one else.
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Nidal will do what is best for Nidal, and throwing in with Cheliax as much as possible might be just that. There's a brewing uprising led by people with warshards. A powerful Cheliax draws almost as much foreign aggro as the Whispering Tyrant. The Black Triune has seen Tar-Baphon slapped down twice now, thrice if one includes his recent defeat at Absolom, and has little reason to suspect this time will be any different. Therefore, their position becomes a little precarious if he is sealed again and Cheliax is taken down a further peg. An ascendent Andoran might offer support to Nidal's rebels, and they might not be the only ones.
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Bringing up Nidal is an example of how most of Cheliax's allies are not anybody who can or will help them very much.
To be sure, Egorian doesn't actually need much from its alliance system in a war with Almas other than their benevolent neutrality (that is, for its allies not to provide aid to Andoran or otherwise hinder Cheliax's own efforts). Having a secure strategic rear and flank so that it can commit to a single front on the Aspodell Mountains and on the Inner Sea is fine.
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I know Nirmathas (or was it Molthune?) had been hoping Oprak would attach Nidal what for Golarion-years ago? And that doesn't seem to have happened...
I think what you're referring to is Nirmathas's having signed a four-year nonaggression Pact with Oprak in the wake of Nidal's signing a three-year nonaggression pact with Oprak, in the hope that if Oprak was to direct its aggression anywhere, it would be away west. That has indeed not happened, because Oprak has opted not to try and conquer new territory at all.
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I think what you're referring to is Nirmathas's having signed a four-year nonaggression Pact with Oprak in the wake of Nidal's signing a three-year nonaggression pact with Oprak, in the hope that if Oprak was to direct its aggression anywhere, it would be away west. That has indeed not happened, because Oprak has opted not to try and conquer new territory at all.
This seems like a fundamental misreading of Oprak, on the basis that "what do Hobgoblins do? They conquer" when Oprak's objective, having already achieved territory, is mostly to gain legitimacy. Like "let's fight all our neighbors all the time" is not a good way to establish a stable homeland for Hobgoblins at all.
Signing various nonaggression pacts with your neighbors when you had never really intended any sort of aggression against your neighbors I guess does help Oprak establish credit in international affairs.
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This seems like a fundamental misreading of Oprak, on the basis that "what do Hobgoblins do? They conquer"
Perhaps. It was also Nirmathas's actual thought process and objective, per the World Guide. One may perhaps forgive them their worries, having had a quarter of their territory conquered already.
It's also quite moot, both Nidal's and Nirmathas's non-aggression pacts with Oprak have long since expired, unless they've been renewed.
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It's also quite moot, both Nidal's and Nirmathas's non-aggression pacts with Oprak have long since expired, unless they've been renewed.
I would assume, given that a state's general preference towards most things is "prolong the status quo" that all manner of treaties, compacts, etc. have been renewed across the Inner Sea just as a matter of course that doesn't really merit mention. The best place for Paizo to lay out the state of various entanglements is "at the start of the Hellfire Crisis."
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I could see some parts of Taldor that weren't exactly thrilled at Eutropia's victory potentially using the chaos to secede, especially if Eutropia makes a firm commitment to support Andoran with parliament split on the issue on the lines of maintaining neutrality, supporting Cheliax or supporting Andoran potentially opening up another front in the war.
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I could see some parts of Taldor that weren't exactly thrilled at Eutropia's victory potentially using the chaos to secede, especially if Eutropia makes a firm commitment to support Andoran with parliament split on the issue on the lines of maintaining neutrality, supporting Cheliax or supporting Andoran potentially opening up another front in the war.
Maybe they want a piece of Galt?
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All of the above seem terrifically unlikely to me. DM's scenario because peace factions do not blow up the state for the sake of their political aims at the outset of war -- rather the stresses of war fatally undermine the state (possibly with some bits spinning off) and allow the peace faction to come to power and implement policy. Keftiu's scenario because a filibuster without at least the tacit support of the central government wouldn't get anywhere even if Galt wasn't famously difficult to administer what with all the experienced guerrillas and the big f*ckoff forests and mountain range between it and Taldor.
Neutrality is so beneficial to Taldor (it can hoover up so much trade that would otherwise go to Cheliax or Andoran, it can sell to both sides, it can maintain its standing army and navy at prewar strength while its rivals deplete theirs, etc.) that I'll stake a marker on Taldor not getting involved of its own volition, not unless it is made to by a gambit from either one of the belligerents or some saboteur. Taldan neutrality also makes for a much cleaner story with fewer moving parts.
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The only thing I could see dragging Taldor into the war is if Qadira intervenes first, to pacify the hardliners and maintain the balance of power between them. Even that seems unlikely - Qadira has no more reason to particularly care who wins than Taldor does, and it has its own trade industry that might want to take up the slack if Cheliax or Andoran's fleets get knocked out. It's longstanding Keleshite policy to expand its influence subtly through economic rather than military arrangements, the annexation of Osirion aside, and a full blown military intervention on that scale is how Qadira got its foreign policy taken away from its Satrap in the first place, given to an Imperially appointed Vizier who likely has no interest in involving the empire in what it would see as a backwater squabble. On the other hand, if Taldor gets involved then Qadira is almost obliged to do the same, if only to check the rising power of Taldor, which is a great reason for Taldor not to. But Taldor and Qadira seems like too big a conflict for this upcoming story, and distracts from the Cheliax/Andoran war.
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It's longstanding Keleshite policy to expand its influence subtly through economic rather than military arrangements, the annexation of Osirion aside, and a full blown military intervention on that scale is how Qadira got its foreign policy taken away from its Satrap in the first place, given to an Imperially appointed Vizier who likely has no interest in involving the empire in what it would see as a backwater squabble. On the other hand, if Taldor gets involved then Qadira is almost obliged to do the same, if only to check the rising power of Taldor, which is a great reason for Taldor not to. But Taldor and Qadira seems like too big a conflict for this upcoming story, and distracts from the Cheliax/Andoran war.
N.b., the central government in Isfahel would be entirely and objectively right to view the Inner Sea War as a backwater squabble. The marcher satrapy that is Qadira has approximately 1.6 million people accounted for, which by itself is an order of magnitude the greatest accounted-for population in the Inner Sea Region and greater than every other putative Great Power in the region put together (Cheliax in second place accounts for about 340 thousand, Taldor about 235 thousand, and Andoran about 190 thousand; Absalom is about on par with the whole of Cheliax accounted-for-population-wise, but does not project power). Neither is Qadira's human capital wasted by underdevelopment; it is among the most economically advanced nations in the Inner Sea Region. And behind Qadiran militarism stands Kelesh imperialism.
Which does indeed argue against Qadiran participation from a story standpoint -- Qadira's involvement in any conflict necessarily makes that conflict all about them, and if the name is any indication the narrative focus of Hellbreakers is elsewhere. That said, it also means that absolutely no move Taldor can possibly make can render it a threat to Qadira. Even if Taldor was to conquer and subjugate both Andoran and Cheliax it would still not present a threat to Qadira, and it can do neither of these things. So Taldan participation does not actually require a Qadiran answer.
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Cheliax can't possibly have a population that small, Egorian and Westcrown together already account for nearly 200,000.