Gun Chemist / Item Weight questions

[JamesWTGames]

Alright, I’ll be honest _this_ topic unlike my prior I haven’t searched up yet. But I mainly wanted to bring this up to hear alternate viewpoints. This is for the game I’m currently a _player_ in. We’re running Iron Gods and are currently lv1.
I’m running a Ratfolk Gun Chemist Alchemist.
Other 2 players are a half-orc Shaman, and an Android BB Magus.
I’m small, and I dumped both Str and Cha. (more important for this discussion is Str)
My Str due to this is 5, and my light load limit 12 lbs.
After well over a half dozen sessions it was brought up about my inventory, and I was unaware of the alchemist kit and formula book which weigh 5 and 3 lbs respectively.
(I knew of the formula book beforehand but at the time was unable to find it on the aonprd lol)
As far as I’m aware unless it’s noted in the item block, an item weighs the same for medium and small characters? (one of my fellow players seems confident on this, but the GM has made no statement of determination one way or the other)
(This is explicitly stated for weapons and armor to weigh half but not items, which makes me confused in the opposite direction of large characters trying to use medium tools)
Unlike a wizard who does need to have his spell book to cast spells, does an alchemist realistically need their formula book on them except when making extracts?
Does a gun chemist need an alchemist kit on him to use his ‘Alchemical Ordnance’? Cause it only states that they imbue it with their innate ‘magical reserves’.
If non-indicated items are NOT half weight for small characters, what’s the best solution you can think of for me being able to carry those 8 extra pounds without being encumbered?

I have, both in and out of character asked my fellow players for assistance with help carrying my gear weight, but most of the time I’m either brushed off, or actively ignored.
I am by far out of the 4 of us the newest to the system, and tend to have a lot of niche rules questions, which seem to have rubbed at least one of the players the wrong way I feel like by being active in the group chat outside of session time.

[happykj]

Some items weight lesser (not always half) for small character, it either written in the item description or marked on the item table.

You can check the tables in Aonprd, eg:
Tools

Items have a category entry (though some item missing this entry), indicates which table it belong to.

Formula book and alchemy craftimg kit weight normal for small character.

You can buy a mwk backpack (50gp) , which can increase your capacity to 15lbs, though the mwk backpack itself for small character weigh 1 lbs (common backpack weigh 0.5 lbs)

Unless your GM want to track it precisely, otherwise avoid spending too much time for it during game

[JamesWTGames]

So I was right the items without denotation do weigh normal for a small character. Find it weird then how that insinuates it weighing the same for a large character. Find it very strange how there's a 3/4 and a 1/4 item weight footnote for items, but no 1/2 item weight footnote.

Honestly the GM hasn't been bringing this up AT ALL during the game. It's one of the players who keeps bringing it up. I think they are more so sore since basically I've been the MVP most encounters. Due to my PCs stat spread my base AC is 17, for 1 hour I can boost that to 21, for 10 mins that hour boost it to 25, and for 1 min in that 10 boost it to 29 at lv1. Not to mention a +5/6 (forget which) ranged to hit, and don't have a penalty for shooting into melee. Meaning I can tank better than anyone else in the party which feels ODD.

Honestly this brings up a lot of questions regarding item weight vs size.
Why does a wet suit always weigh 4 lbs even for a tiny creature?
How does a set of 2 lb manacles manage to hold an ogre as well as a human?
How does a mining pick weigh the same as a sledge?
For a 1/4 weight item how much more would it actually weigh for a large character, since the reverse is 4x more which doesn't feel right?
How does an empty clay jug alone weigh 9 lbs?
Why does a climber, disguise kit and musical instruments all weigh less for small creatures, yet a book cannot be made in smaller sizes?

There's obviously more, just those are a few that stood out to me from what I've seen so far.

[TxSam88]

it's not a reality simulation, many things are that way due to game balance, and/or game simplicity

[I grok do u]

JamesWTGames wrote:

So I was right the items without denotation do weigh normal for a small character. Find it weird then how that insinuates it weighing the same for a large character. Find it very strange how there's a 3/4 and a 1/4 item weight footnote for items, but no 1/2 item weight footnote.

...[PC stuff]...

Honestly this brings up a lot of questions regarding item weight vs size.
Why does a wet suit always weigh 4 lbs even for a tiny creature?
How does a set of 2 lb manacles manage to hold an ogre as well as a human?
How does a mining pick weigh the same as a sledge?
For a 1/4 weight item how much more would it actually weigh for a large character, since the reverse is 4x more which doesn't feel right?
How does an empty clay jug alone weigh 9 lbs?
Why does a climber, disguise kit and musical instruments all weigh less for small creatures, yet a book cannot be made in smaller sizes?

There's obviously more, just those are a few that stood out to me from what I've seen so far.

Since this is the rules forum, these kind of questions don't really belong here. However, the short answer is because of a loose design balance and publishing/editing considerations. The weights are also meant for simulating the encumbrance of items, even if this is somewhat inconsistently applied, which is also why the rules are to use armor as the encumbrance unless dealing with excessive item weights or very weak characters. Virtually everything is designed for medium creatures because most PCs are medium, next are considerations for small creatures, and finally large creatures. Creatures outside of these sizes are rarely PCs, so the GM can determine any necessities (basically ignore weight). Humanoids outside that range are also rare, and usually the stat block and treasure carried are the only data of concern.

If you want an in-universe explanation: typically, medium creatures dominate the economy, so most items will be made for medium creatures - smaller and larger just have to make do.
Specifics: wet suit - the material used is somewhat stiffer (especially near seams), and this is magnified over short lengths. Smaller creatures have less material weight, but the effective weight is greater due to the stiffness. Large wetsuits do weigh more in material, but they are relatively more flexible, so they do hinder encumbrance as much.
Manacles- 2 lbs of metal can be pretty effective at holding most creatures regardless of size, the issue is how large or small the restraints need to be made, even thinning the metal a little to accommodate wider wrists won't decrease the strength much.
Mining picks and sledges- these can definitely have the same amount of metal in the heads. Picks just have it drawn out into the pick shape, while sledges keep it in one big lump.
Books - the only ways to make a book smaller are to write less or write smaller. Writing smaller may still make it more difficult for even smaller races to read, so they still keep their fonts about the same size as the medium races would write.
Clay jug - larger sized clay pottery require proportionately thicker walls. This is a 1 gallon jug and has to be tolerably strong to hold a liquid (that can easily double the weight) and not easily break.

[Belafon]

JamesWTGames wrote:

Honestly this brings up a lot of questions regarding item weight vs size.

Why does a wet suit always weigh 4 lbs even for a tiny creature?

Because it was published in a softcover book that didn't put in subscripts. Should have a different weight.

Quote:

How does a set of 2 lb manacles manage to hold an ogre as well as a human?

That's a very good question. Probably should weigh more.

Quote:

How does a mining pick weigh the same as a sledge?

The heads actually have about the same amount of metal. A sledge has a wide, flat face while a pick is thinned out to a more narrow, pointed end.

Quote:

For a 1/4 weight item how much more would it actually weigh for a large character, since the reverse is 4x more which doesn't feel right?

Should be 4x. When you double the dimensions of a shape (such as a cylinder) the surface area increases by roughly 4x.

Quote:

How does an empty clay jug alone weigh 9 lbs?

It doesn't. That's the weight of a full (1 gallon) jug. An empty jug weighs half a pound.

Quote:

Why does a climber, disguise kit and musical instruments all weigh less for small creatures, yet a book cannot be made in smaller sizes?

Crampons would be the heaviest part of a climber's kit, and be smaller for a small creature. Disguise kits need less makeup and facial hair, so they weigh less. Musical instruments, see spoiler.

Spoiler:

Instruments can be smaller because the user is smaller; a flute for a halfling could have the keys closer together, a guitar would have a shorter fretboard and smaller body. However, these would definitely change the sound! Music is all about frequency and a shorter barrel on a flute, or shorter strings and smaller cavity on a guitar, would change the frequency. Presumably they are made by people who know what they are doing, so making instruments smaller (or bigger) would result in the same notes, just in a different octave.

Writing has a minimum size to be legible, and paper has a minimum thickness to be durable. If you make a smaller book it holds less information. There is a Traveling formula book which weighs only 1 pound (vs 3 pounds for a full formula book) but only hold 50 pages of spells (vs 100 for a full formula book).

[Belafon]

JamesWTGames wrote:

Honestly the GM hasn't been bringing this up AT ALL during the game. It's one of the players who keeps bringing it up.

Many game groups ignore weight because it is yet another thing to keep track of. But it is a balancing factor, precisely so that dumping strength has an effect for classes that don't rely on STR for attack and damage.

Back in my PFS1 GM days, I always took a glance at the strength of the PCs when the players sat down. Alchemists, bards, and swashbucklers would quite often be in medium or heavy load without realizing it. I would enforce weight penalties but before the game started I would offer them solutions to their problem.

In your case: buy a Handy Haversack and drink ant haul extracts.

[JamesWTGames]

I apologize for drifting off topic. But I do appreciate the insight. I had no idea wet suits worked like that, nor that manacles made for larger creatures given the same amount of metal could work in the same fashion well.
I thought I remembered years ago handling a mining pick and a sledgehammer and the sledge felt considerably heavier. Maybe it was just a chintzy pickaxe or just a badly weighted sledge. Memories ain’t perfect.
I work white collar in finance IRL and don’t get out often anymore. So forgive me if I often sound daft about certain things on the world at large.
I spent most of my ‘time off’ last year recuperating from surgeries I’ve been delaying due to not desiring my boss to get irritated with me since he thinks ‘you look fine’.
… and there I go greatly off topic again.

I also comically wrote this before Belafon replied to any of my above, just hadn't posted it yet WELP

[JamesWTGames]

Belafon wrote:

JamesWTGames wrote:

Honestly the GM hasn't been bringing this up AT ALL during the game. It's one of the players who keeps bringing it up.

Many game groups ignore weight because it is yet another thing to keep track of. But it is a balancing factor, precisely so that dumping strength has an effect for classes that don't rely on STR for attack and damage.

Back in my PFS1 GM days, I always took a glance at the strength of the PCs when the players sat down. Alchemists, bards, and swashbucklers would quite often be in medium or heavy load without realizing it. I would enforce weight penalties but before the game started I would offer them solutions to their problem.

In your case: buy a Handy Haversack and drink ant haul extracts.

Ant haul is a potential solution, though I'm unsure how long '2 hours' would be for our situation, due to how much time it takes us to get back to where we were in the caves. The Handy Haversack although useful, is FAR outside our group's price range atm. Remember we're lv1.

I think part of the reason the GM is hand waving it atm is that given the AP (Iron Gods) we realistically have a 'base of operations' until the end of module 1. So I could keep an alchemist kit and my formula book with the Baine household (two of us took Local Ties, me as a student of Khonnir Baine, and the Magus as an adopted daughter) until we leave Torch.

It's part of the reason why I asked if a Gun Chemist needs an alchemist kit to use his Alchemical Ordnance. Since nothing in the archetype description feels like it references anything of the sort.

GM is also being a bit weird about the XP since the one time I checked what CR an encounter was (Ghelarn) after the fight, he seemed to be reducing base XP to 3/4 of what's stated due to us being a 3 person group. As in a CR2 is stated to give 600 XP and we were awarded a total of 450, IE 150 each. I am unsure if they did so with any prior encounters (I feel not) but if so it ironically would have mean we would have leveled up off the Ghelarn since we're sitting around 1.5k/2k for lv2. Though he often states he feels confused how we haven't leveled up yet despite him running the system (and the modules) for years, maybe he is messing with us playfully, hard to tell through text.

[Mysterious Stranger]

If the item is question can be used by any size character it should weigh the same. If the item in question has to be sized for the character to use properly it should be adjusted for size. Not all the material in books will reflect this, but most GM’s will be reasonable.

The reason the alchemist kit and formula book are not reduced in weight is that they are not sized for the character. Even though your character is small he can still use an alchemist kit from another (medium sized) creature or learn an extract from any formula book he finds regardless of size.

Wizards do not need their spell book to cast spell, they need them to prepare spells. The same is true with an alchemist (including gun chemist). Your alchemical ordnance does not require you to have your formula book but does require you to have your alchemist kit. The alchemist kit is the equivalent to a spell caster spell component pouch.

Your character could prepare his extracts in the morning and leave the formula book behind. Doing so is dangerous because if the book is lost or stolen you cannot prepare new extracts until it is found or replaced. This would have no effect on your ability to use your alchemical Ordnance or Mutagen as long as you have your alchemist kit.

In all honesty you dumped your STR and that has consequences.

[Azothath]

The general rules from CRB Rules, Equipment
Weapon, Weapon Qualities, Weight: This column gives the weight of a Medium version of the weapon. Halve this number for Small weapons and double it for Large weapons. Some weapons have a special weight. See the weapon’s description for details.

Carrying Capacity, Bigger and Smaller Creatures: The figures on Table 7–4 are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large ×2, Huge ×4, Gargantuan ×8, Colossal ×16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small ×3/4, Tiny ×1/2, Diminutive ×1/4, Fine ×1/8.

Armor Weight: This column gives the weight of the armor sized for a Medium wearer. Armor fitted for Small characters weighs half as much, and armor for Large characters weighs twice as much.

=====

Realize there were several product lines, some got reviewed and others (aka the PPC line) were "stuff to sell" (freelancers and side projects to feed ideas into the core lines of products & test popularity).

It's your GMs job to smooth out the bumps or make RAW reasonable.
A cylinder's volume is (pi)r^2*h. So if you double the height and radius that is an increase of 8(=2^2 *2) in volume or weight. A cube goes 1(=1^3), 8(=2^3), 27(=3^3), ... A column/cylinder that can support twice the weight is a bit trickier.

Ant Haul:T1{d20PSFRD} at 2*CstrLvl hrs is a reasonable fix using a wand.
Muleback Cords[shldrs] Wt:0.25lb $1000.

[Name Violation]

buy a riding dog, put a pack on it

[Mysterious Stranger]

The GM might have some responsibility to make the game more reasonable, but that does not mean that he has to fix self-inflicted problem by the player. From the looks of it the player decided to dump STR because he did not think it would hurt the character. Now he has found out that he was wrong he is complaining about the consequences of his own decision. He is not playing a small character that cannot carry as much because of size, He is playing a really weak small character to can hardly carry anything.

As a GM my solution would be to allow the player to redo their stats so that the STR is not so low. That will mean that some of his other stats need to come down to pay for it.

[Azothath]

for a Str 5 small character the last two suggestions in my post are a reasonable workable solution. Then the character can pick up a Str point at 4th level. Otherwise retraining or GM allowing ability score rework.
I thought of Unseen Servant and Riding dog but Ant Haul has a longer duration than Unseen Servant and there's an action economy impact of getting gear off another creature. The Handy Haversack is the standard solution but again, some action economy cost in managing items.
Once resistance bonuses are added to the muleback cords (as it is the cloak/shldrs slot), the muleback effect increases to $1500 with standard pricing for the resistance bonuses to saves.

[Diego Rossi]

Quote:

Alchemy (Su): Alchemists are not only masters of creating mundane alchemical substances such as alchemist’s fire and smokesticks, but also of fashioning magical potion-like extracts in which they can store spell effects.

Extracts aren't a 0 weight item. They should have the same weight as a potion:

Potions wrote:

Physical Description: A typical potion or oil consists of 1 ounce of liquid held in a ceramic or glass vial fitted with a tight stopper. The stoppered container is usually no more than 1 inch wide and 2 inches high. The vial has AC 13, 1 hit point, hardness 1, and a break DC of 12.

So 1/16 of a lbs.

Then there are the compounds used to infuse his ammunition:

Gun Chemist wrote:

Alchemical Ordnance (Su): A gun chemist is adept at using his know-how to infuse his ammunition with volatile chemicals and his own magical reserves. When loading a firearm, he can infuse the ammunition as a free action. The compounds are unstable, and if not fired within a number of rounds equal to the gun chemist’s Intelligence modifier (though no sooner than the end of his next turn), the alchemical ordnance becomes inert and loses its additional effects; he can still fire the firearm as normal. Each day, the gun chemist can infuse a number of pieces of alchemical ordnance equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier, and he can fire no more than one piece per round.

Apparently, it works like for the bombs it replaces. The alchemist has a vial with the basic compound, he infuses it with his magic and applies it to his ammunitions as a free action, and it stays stable for a few rounds.

Bombs weigh as a potion, but it is awkward visually and conceptually to think that the alchemist will infuse an ounce of liquid in its ammunition during combat. Personally, I would say that he does that when he prepares his extract in the morning and he "only" needs to bring his prepared ammunition, without extra weight for the compound. He then activates the ammunition when needed.

The ammunition for the gun already have a noticeable impact on his carrying capacity:
- 30 firearms bullets weight 1/2 lb;
- the gunpowder for 100 shots (a keg) weighs 5 lbs, so 1.5 lbs for 30 shots.

Then there is the mutagen. A ready mutagen should weigh an ounce, but without the alchemical kit, the alchemist can't make another until he returns to his base.

So, to sum it up, at level 1 he needs to carry the following (assuming int 20):
2 extracts (2/16 of a lb.);
1 mutagen (1/16 of a lb);
6 prepared bullets and at last another 14 unprepareds (20 total), 1/3 of a lb;
20 shots of gunpowder (1 lb.);
the gun, probably a small coat pistol for 1/2 lb.

Total 2 lbs (fractions rounded down).

As soon as he increases his level the number of extracts and the quantity of ammunition he will be able to produce shoot up. The availability of solutions will increase, too, but his low carrying capacity will affect him and his finances for a long time.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Diego Rossi, please note that 'Ounce' has two separate measurement meanings:
1/16th of a pound for weight, or
1/8th of a cup for volume (sometimes referred to as a 'fluid ounce').

While I believe the two are roughly equivalent for water, your mileage will vary greatly with other materials...

When measuring a liquid, an 'ounce' is typically a measurement of volume...

JamesWTGames, consider buying a Riding Rat for your character: It goes with your racial theme, and generally won't have to be left behind when the terrain gets awkward (as it is medium size and has both climb and swim speeds, it can go anywhere the rest of the party can).

Riding rat wrote:

Source Monster Codex pg. 177

Price [Legal only for Ratfolk PCs] 75 gp (combat trained), [Legal only for Ratfolk PCs] 50 gp (common); Weight 50 lbs. (combat trained), 50 lbs. (common)
Description
Horses, ponies, and other draft animals are ill-suited to living underground for long stretches, so the ratfolk bred a particularly strong type of dire rat to assist in pulling their wagons and serving as mounts for caravan scouts. As rodents, riding rats respond favorably to ratfolk’s commands, and the animals’ hardiness and omnivorous diet make them very easy to care for even on long journeys through inhospitable terrain. Use the statistics for a dire rat with the giant simple template (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 232, 295). A ratfolk with the animal companion, mount, or similar class feature can select a riding rat as her mount.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Actually, upon further thought, you really need to ask your GM for permission to reallocate your stats: A 5 in strength is just too low and while there are magical ways around this, they will eat up precious resources at low levels (gold or extract slots)...

Keep in mind that every 50 coins is another pound of encumbrance, so just gathering enough gold to purchase a magic item to help with your carrying capacity is going to be problematic for you (2,000g to purchase a low end item is 40lbs* of gold coins, or 4lbs of platinum coins).

Buying a riding rat as a pack animal is still a good idea, but that is more for stuff you just won't need in a hurry (rations, waterskin, camping supplies, and loot).

*Note that your heavy load caps out at 37.5lbs...

Just to restate your potential item options for helping your carrying capacity:

The traditional items for increased personal carrying capacity are:
Backpack (Masterwork) - 50g / 1lb: Adds 1 to your strength for carrying capacity calculation
Backpack (Masterwork) [Darkleaf Cloth] - 425g / 0.5lb: Adds 1 to your strength for carrying capacity calculation.
Muleback Cords [Shoulder Slot] - 1,000g / 0.0625lbs: Adds 8 to your strength for carrying capacity calculation
Heavyload Belt [Belt Slot] - 2,000g / 0.75lbs: +200% to your carrying capacity
Burdenless [Armor Quality] - 4,000g / 0lbs: +50% to your carrying capacity

Traditional extradimensional storage options are:
Bag of Holding, Minor - 1,000g / 3lbs: Holds 50lbs of stuff.
Bag of Holding (Type I) - 2,500g / 15lbs: Holds 250lbs of stuff.
Bag of Holding (Type II) - 5,000g / 25lbs: Holds 500lbs of stuff.
Bag of Holding (Type III) - 7,400g / 35lbs: Holds 1,000lbs of stuff.
Bag of Holding (Type IV) - 10,000g / 60lbs: Holds 1,500lbs of stuff.
Handy Haversack - 2,000g, 5lbs: Holds 80lbs of stuff
Portable Hole - 20,000g / 0lbs: Holds as much as you can put in its 10' depth.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The alchemy crafting kit (formerly named the alchemist kit) has everything the alchemist needs to create his extracts, mutaqgens and bombs. Since the alchemical ordnance replaces the bombs for this archetype it should also cover those.

The player may have dumped STR and should have to deal with encumbrance; but he should not be penalized beyond what the rules provide. The book is clear that as long as the character has a alchemy crafting kit he has all the components he needs for bombs, extracts and mutagens. Counting bombs and extracts as potions is being vindictive and abusive.

The ammunition and gun powder are completely different and should be counted. But since a small pistol does do less damage than a medium, they should be reduced in weight. Smaller guns us smaller bullets and less gunpowder.

[I grok do u]

Endless Bandolier is a useful and thematic addition once you can afford the 1500gp pricetag.

Beneficial bandolier at 1000gp is also a good choice, but competes in the belt slot. Get as an add-on eventually for +1500, and that takes care of ammo weight.

The Scrap collector' sstrap is an awesome item for firearms, but don't be surprised if the GM says nay.

As you can see from all the advice on the thread, money and magic are your primary options to alleviate low strength encumbrance. Convincing party members to take up part of your load is another option, I suppose. Hopefully, as you lag behind with your 15 ft speed (from medium or heavy load, respectively), they will reconsider helping out.

The tumor familiar discovery can get you a fox familiar, which has a STR of 9, so it could help carry up to 22.5 lbs if decked out some appropriate gear.

[Taja the Barbarian]

I grok do u wrote:

...

As you can see from all the advice on the thread, money and magic are your primary options to alleviate low strength encumbrance. Convincing party members to take up part of your load is another option, I suppose. Hopefully, as you lag behind with your 15 ft speed (from medium or heavy load, respectively), they will reconsider helping out.

...

There are two things to keep in mind about asking your teammates to carry your gear

• a) Some characters might not have the spare capacity to actually help if they didn't pump up their Strength (remember that armor and weapons are proportionately heavier for medium sized characters), and
• b) A character who dumped their strength score so low they essentially can not carry their own weight is a situation where I just wouldn't be surprised to see a 'no mercy in this dojo' attitude give that you created the issue yourself*...

*Yes, not realizing the necessity/weight of your alchemy gear is a really easy mistake to make, but dumping your Strength to 5 is just begging for trouble...

[Diego Rossi]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The alchemy crafting kit (formerly named the alchemist kit) has everything the alchemist needs to create his extracts, mutaqgens and bombs. Since the alchemical ordnance replaces the bombs for this archetype it should also cover those.

If they leave the kit at home, they should count the extracts' weights. If they don't, the extracts' weights is part of the kit weight.

[JamesWTGames]

… WOAH. I was not expecting so many responses over the weekend. I do appreciate all the input provided above I haven’t received so much direct input to some of my questions in years. Makes me feel like people actually care.

So I want to thank Name Violation for suggesting the Riding dog. Then Taja the barbarian for suggesting the riding rat. Both are the most viable solutions atm. Azothah I already had noted due to Belafon’s post that Ant Haul would be another potential solution. Other than that the best solution would be minor remapping of stats if still going off the point buy calcs dropping my Dex or Int by 1 point would raise my Str by 3 to an 8. Dropping Wis by 1 would raise Str by 2 to a 7. Would be same for Con but I don’t want to drop Con cause my prior character died due to a very unlucky shot against him after earlier that day he attempted to disarm an obviously trapped chest getting hit by a poisoned dart and rolling a max of 6 con damage, bringing his 10 down to 4, losing 9 max hp (we were lv 3). Then again that PC was a wreck since he was built as a support, which he was good at, but he legit could NOT deal damage.

Most of the other solutions are untenable at the current moment. Mainly due to our party’s budget. To give some idea between the 3 of us we have a total of now 300 gp give or take? Part of it is that we keep getting nickel and dimed with stuff we _need_ to complete specific side objectives. One example being the Liquid Ice we had to buy for 40 gp to nullify a large patch of brown mold to recover a cadaver since no one in the party has a way to deal cold damage. (I could when we lv up lol). But it’s also that for example our magus keeps spending the _vast preponderance_ of her funds on pots of CLW, even though a while back I think we had enough money for a wand of CLW if we pooled funds which is 40% cheaper, and yes healing is kind of that much of a concern at this point.

Doesn’t help the Shaman took the wind spirit and is looking at the ‘Air Barrier’ hex which would only increase their AC by 1 atm, bringing them up to only 15 atm? IE he’s super squishy since shamans don’t get mage armor or shield.

[Azothath]

perhaps Items that can save you thread, 2019 will be of some help {see Aegis of Recovery}.

Frankly the person made a poor choice dumping ability scores and the GM should have said, Whoa!, and make sure the player understood the issue. If they did it anyway - then the penalty is game time and gold to fix it.

[I grok do u]

JamesWTGames wrote:

Most of the other solutions are untenable at the current moment. Mainly due to our party’s budget. To give some idea between the 3 of us we have a total of now 300 gp give or take? Part of it is that we keep getting nickel and dimed with stuff we _need_ to complete specific side objectives. One example being the Liquid Ice we had to buy for 40 gp to nullify a large patch of brown mold to recover a cadaver since no one in the party has a way to deal cold damage. (I could when we lv up lol). But it’s also that for example our magus keeps spending the _vast preponderance_ of her funds on pots of CLW, even though a while back I think we had enough money for a wand of CLW if we pooled funds which is 40% cheaper, and yes healing is kind of that much of a concern at this point.

Doesn’t help the Shaman took the wind spirit and is looking at the ‘Air Barrier’ hex which...

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, but why didn't the magus just use her ray of frost cantrip? Infernal healing is a good (pardon the irony) spell for a magus to have some self-healing. Scroll is half the cost of CLW potion. As long as the spell alignment isn't an issue, and best used out of combat, but it's 10 points of healing over the course of 1 min.

At least once your party levels up enough, between your alchemy crafting, and possible magic crafting by the other two (suggest potions for the shaman and weapons/armor or wondrous items for the magus), the 3 of you should be able to afford stuff much better.

But the riding rat, riding dog, or even a mule (8gp) are going to be your most affordable approach right now.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The alchemy crafting kit (formerly named the alchemist kit) has everything the alchemist needs to create his extracts, mutaqgens and bombs. Since the alchemical ordnance replaces the bombs for this archetype it should also cover those.

If they leave the kit at home, they should count the extracts' weights. If they don't, the extracts' weights is part of the kit weight.

That I can agree on, but if they leave the kit at home, they would not be able to use alchemical ordnance (or bombs for a normal alchemist).

[Diego Rossi]

JamesWTGames wrote:

So I want to thank Name Violation for suggesting the Riding dog. Then Taja the barbarian for suggesting the riding rat. Both are the most viable solutions atm. Azothah I already had noted due to Belafon’s post that Ant Haul would be another potential solution. Other than that the best solution would be minor remapping of stats if still going off the point buy calcs dropping my Dex or Int by 1 point would raise my Str by 3 to an 8. Dropping Wis by 1 would raise Str by 2 to a 7. Would be same for Con but I don’t want to drop Con cause my prior character died due to a very unlucky shot against him after earlier that day he attempted to disarm an obviously trapped chest getting hit by a poisoned dart and rolling a max of 6 con damage, bringing his 10 down to 4, losing 9 max hp (we were lv 3). Then again that PC was a wreck since he was built as a support, which he was good at, but he legit could NOT deal damage.

The most important saves are Fortitude and Will. Dex saves generally mean a loss of hit points, it can kill but after a few levels you have some margin.

Dupming Str can kill you if you meet a shadow. A friend did lose an alchemist character to a shadow that during the surprise round critical hit him for maximum damage, 12. That was exactly his strength. Str 5 means that it can happen 1/3 of the time with shadows attacks.
Strength 8 seems way more viable.

[Diego Rossi]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The alchemy crafting kit (formerly named the alchemist kit) has everything the alchemist needs to create his extracts, mutaqgens and bombs. Since the alchemical ordnance replaces the bombs for this archetype it should also cover those.

If they leave the kit at home, they should count the extracts' weights. If they don't, the extracts' weights is part of the kit weight.

That I can agree on, but if they leave the kit at home, they would not be able to use alchemical ordnance (or bombs for a normal alchemist).

Quote:

In order to create a bomb, the alchemist must use a small vial containing an ounce of liquid catalyst—the alchemist can create this liquid catalyst from small amounts of chemicals from an alchemy lab, and these supplies can be readily refilled in the same manner as a spellcaster’s component pouch. [b]Most alchemists create a number of catalyst vials at the start of the day equal to the total number of bombs they can create in that day/b—once created, a catalyst vial remains usable by the alchemist for years.

As I read it, the alchemist can prepare the bombs (and for a gun chemist, the bullets) he will use at home. When he wants to use them it infuses his magic in the catalyst making it active.

Doing that bot makes the catalyst active, thus dealing the extra damage, and unstable, thus degrading in a few rounds.

If he wants, an alchemist can coat plenty of bullets with the catalyst, well above his daily limits, but he can activate only a few*, as activating them depletes his magic reserves.

* A few, i.e. " Each day, the gun chemist can infuse a number of pieces of alchemical ordnance equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier,"

[JamesWTGames]

Azothah thanks for the link I'm reading a bit of it right now!

Grok, Infernal healing wouldn't work for her she's LG, or at least think she is, so can't use evil spells due to alignment. (I'm NG btw, unsure on the Shaman). As for the crafting bit, this party kind of is super interested in wanting to do that just aren't a high enough lv to realistically even consider it yet. The group is looking at turning X into Y for my Craft(Alchemy) to let me use it for virtually ALL wondrous items/arms & armor via the Master Craftsman feat. Taking Material Mastery as a discovery on top of that for the spells not on any of our spell lists. To give some idea my base to alchemy at lv1 is a +11, by the time we're lv10 we'll believe be able to get that potentially as high as +35.

As for Diego, yeah I've kind of learned that. Our group has had several session altering Will saves; prior game at lv3 where the 2 front line characters I was playing after my 1st character died, both failed a Will save against an undead's aura and ended up panicked and ran away from the encounter. We've had some Fort saves but not as many, and virtually no Reflex saves. The reason Dex for me is a more concerning stat to me is that this is a RANGED character, meaning it affects my AC, and my to hit. Forgive me if I put too much mental weight on that. Also we haven't come across Shadows yet. Again our DM is running the Iron Gods AP so don't know if those are prevalent in it.

As for cold snap... From what I read Magus get 3 orisons at lv1. And from what I can surmise she didn't take it. In fact I'm not sure if she took any damaging orisons.

Also again I find it ironic how the ranged character has a higher natural and potential AC and saves compared to either of the other PCs. I may have a few hp less but the Magus is at like 15 AC with her backpack on 16 without. The Shaman is at I want to say 14 AC.

[Diego Rossi]

JamesWTGames wrote:

As for cold snap... From what I read Magus get 3 orisons at lv1. And from what I can surmise she didn't take it. In fact I'm not sure if she took any damaging orisons.

Quote:

A magus begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level magus spells plus three 1st-level magus spells of his choice.

A magus can memorize 3 0 level spells, but she can change them every day (unless she is the Cha based archetype that casts spontaneous spells).

With only 3 slots at level 1 she probably memorized Arcane Mark (a must for a magus), Light or Dancing Lights, and Detect magic. She could have changed them the next day.
At first level, Disrupt undead is pretty good. There are a few low-level undead that can be a pain. I played a Magus in Carrion Crow, and at low level it saw a lot of use.

At level 5 she will be able to add shock and shocking burst to her weapon, which can be very useful against robots and machines.

Dexterity has several advantages if you have a character that prioritizes it. It has more benefits than strength, especially for characters that don't use bows, slings, or throw weapons and so don't get to add the strength bonus to damage.

[JamesWTGames]

Forgot she could swap them out each day. Then again she might not either! Honestly I forget _what_ first level spells she has (we don't have access to each others sheets). She's also a BB magus, though again her blade doesn't 'awaken' until lv3.

The biggest 'YIKES' encounter in this game has been 7 Kasatha skeletons. Problem is that I don't have anything to really AOE damage them (Crafter's Fortune, Heightened Awareness, Shield, Longshot, & CLW). The Shaman's a wind shaman not life, meaning no channeling. And the magus... well she went down before her turn in initiative. 6/7 of the skeletons rolled before any of the 3 of us in initiative, my potential AC was the only thing that really saved us.

Also yeah I'm a gun chemist so I was shooting down those skeletons. So Dex to attack and no str bonus for damage. (My AO adds my int though)