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Does having a shield strapped to your arm, but not held, interfere with use of that hand? Is there any actual rule on this?
I’ve been treating it like it doesn’t interfere at all, and have a Champion who fairly regularly releases his shield to two-hand his bastard sword for the d12s, and I’ve allowed that, but it always felt off to me.
"Raise a Shield is the action most commonly used with shields. All shields, unless specifically noted or described otherwise, must be strapped to your arm and held in one hand, so you can't hold anything with that hand and Raise a Shield, and you lose the shield's benefits if that hand is no longer free."
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2180
However, switching hands is an interact action.
"Change your grip by adding a hand to an item."
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2151
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"Raise a Shield is the action most commonly used with shields. All shields, unless specifically noted or described otherwise, must be strapped to your arm and held in one hand, so you can't hold anything with that hand and Raise a Shield, and you lose the shield's benefits if that hand is no longer free."
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2180
However, switching hands is an interact action.
"Change your grip by adding a hand to an item."
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2151
I suspect this isn't as helpful as you might think.
I think the Bastion feat Nimble Shield Hand can give us some clarity.
The hand you use to wield a shield counts as a free hand for the purposes of the Interact action. You can also hold another object in this hand (but you still can’t use it to wield a weapon). This benefit doesn’t apply to tower shields, which are still too cumbersome.
The way I read it, this feat allows you to have a "free hand" and still be wielding the shield. So the implication is that without this feat, you can treat your shield hand as a free hand, but then you can't also be wielding your shield.
This does imply that the OP is doing it correct, as long as you use an action to regrip the shield before using it.
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"Raise a Shield is the action most commonly used with shields. All shields, unless specifically noted or described otherwise, must be strapped to your arm and held in one hand, so you can't hold anything with that hand and Raise a Shield, and you lose the shield's benefits if that hand is no longer free."I suspect this isn't as helpful as you might think.
Yeah, the question is what happens when you Release the shield but it is still strapped to your arm. Can you use that hand normally? Or is it still occupied by the shield that you are no longer Wielding? It is clear that you are not wielding the shield and cannot use Raise a Shield. But is your hand then free and you can use the hand for other things?
Unfortunately the rules don't really say, so we are left with only RAI arguments.
Such as:
Pre-Remaster, the method of having a Champion using a 1-hand weapon with the 2-hand trait and a shield was that you could Release the shield and it would drop on the ground. Then you could Regrip and swing the weapon for the extra damage. Later you could Release grip on the sword with one hand and Interact to pick up the shield again.
The problem is if you move from that spot. Then your shield is left laying on the ground somewhere where you can't reach it.
And this isn't the only time where Release was leaving your very important and expensive equipment laying around on the battlefield where any random mook could go and pick it up and run off with it.
Removing that type of littering was the entire point of the Swap version of the Interact action that lets you stow one item and draw another. You no longer have to leave your weapons strewn around the battlefield just because you built a switch hitter.
IMO, having shields both held and strapped serves the same purpose. You can release the shield and instead of dropping on the ground, it stays strapped to your arm. But you can then 2-hand your bastard sword after you spend the action to Regrip the sword. Then later, even if you move from your location, you can release the sword with your shield hand and spend an action to Interact and grab your shield properly in order to Wield it.
It is the same action cost for both pre-Remaster and Remaster rules. But now you aren't leaving your shield laying on the ground.
There is no check penalty for having the shield strapped on, but there is an action cost to juggle things.
Releasing is a free action, but gripping the shield or gripping the sword with a second hand both cost an action. If you want to wield a shield and use a two-handed swing in the same turn you're burning two actions and only getting in one strike until you start burning feats or getting quickened.
This would make no sense to say if there wasn't the possibility of the hand being filled with something else while the shield is hanging from the arm attachment.
Yeah, that is also a good point.
The alternative reading that I can get from the shield strapping rules is that the shield occupies your hand and is strapped there so that you are not allowed to use Release on the shield at all.
Which, as noted, would make some of the wording make very little sense; would be a major change from the pre-Remaster shield rules; and would be a rather large problem for several character concepts. And with no real benefits to compensate for it.
So I would put that ruling into the 'too bad to be true' category.
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Unfortunately the rules don't really say
I'm not sure they need to.
If you Release an object your hand is now free. There doesn't need to be a special carveout for shields because nothing about that interaction changes.
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Unfortunately the rules don't really sayI'm not sure they need to.
If you Release an object your hand is now free. There doesn't need to be a special carveout for shields because nothing about that interaction changes.
If it's strapped securely in place then you open your hand and the grip is still pressed to your palm, in the way of normal use, unless the strapping is a bit loose, but then does the shield shift about when you move or roll around and get in the way?
Bringing in the idea of a shield being strapped to you and not specifically calling out what that means is an issue. A line saying strapped shields don't fall to the ground when released would help.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you had to hold the shield while it was strapped to prevent it from falling off there wouldn't be a need to describe "must be strapped to your arm and held in one hand".
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Unfortunately the rules don't really sayI'm not sure they need to.
If you Release an object your hand is now free. There doesn't need to be a special carveout for shields because nothing about that interaction changes.
Release doesn't actually say that your hand is free afterwards.
If the shield doesn't drop to the ground, and it isn't a weapon - which of these are you doing:
dropping an item, removing one hand from your weapon while continuing to hold it in another hand, releasing a rope suspending a chandelier, or performing a similar action
A shield certainly isn't the rope holding a chandelier.
I have to conclude that it falls into the category of performing a similar action. Which does not really specify what happens to the item or the occupancy of your hand.
So it looks to me like RAW isn't written. Only implied. And the implications are not entirely clear in this case.
Nimble Shield Hand shows that the physical presence of a strapped shield does not prevent you from holding an item, since you can straight up wield a weapon as long as you're not using a tower shield.
The combined reading tells me:
* Strapping a shield to your arm allows you to release it without dropping it.
* If you release the shield, you can use your hand pretty much normally.
* The penalties are just that you need to burn resources to juggle things.
Now, I think at least tower shields should be more of a problem, but you'd only get so much value from that rule.
Nimble Shield Hand shows that the physical presence of a strapped shield does not prevent you from holding an item, since you can straight up wield a weapon as long as you're not using a tower shield.
Well, it does for a character that has that feat.
But specific doesn't define general. Nimble Shield Hand doesn't tell us what a character without that feat is able to do with their shield or their shield hand.
The use of "even while" here indicates that it is an extension of what you could do while not holding it: "You are so used to wielding a shield that you can do so even while using the hand that’s holding it for other tasks that require the dexterity of a hand".
It would be nice to have it all spelled out in bullet points in one place, though
Unfortunately the rules don't really sayI'm not sure they need to.
If you Release an object your hand is now free. There doesn't need to be a special carveout for shields because nothing about that interaction changes.
Release doesn't actually say that your hand is free afterwards.
If the shield doesn't drop to the ground, and it isn't a weapon - which of these are you doing:
dropping an item, removing one hand from your weapon while continuing to hold it in another hand, releasing a rope suspending a chandelier, or performing a similar actionA shield certainly isn't the rope holding a chandelier.
I have to conclude that it falls into the category of performing a similar action. Which does not really specify what happens to the item or the occupancy of your hand.
So it looks to me like RAW isn't written. Only implied. And the implications are not entirely clear in this case.
I see, so your position is that once you grab a shield that hand is occupied forever because Release doesn't free your hand up?
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Unfortunately the rules don't really sayI'm not sure they need to.
If you Release an object your hand is now free. There doesn't need to be a special carveout for shields because nothing about that interaction changes.
Release doesn't actually say that your hand is free afterwards.
If the shield doesn't drop to the ground, and it isn't a weapon - which of these are you doing:
dropping an item, removing one hand from your weapon while continuing to hold it in another hand, releasing a rope suspending a chandelier, or performing a similar actionA shield certainly isn't the rope holding a chandelier.
I have to conclude that it falls into the category of performing a similar action. Which does not really specify what happens to the item or the occupancy of your hand.
So it looks to me like RAW isn't written. Only implied. And the implications are not entirely clear in this case.
I see, so your position is that once you grab a shield that hand is occupied forever because Release doesn't free your hand up?
For what it's worth, as someone who fights sword and shield, that is how it generally works in real life. If your shield is strapped to your arm, the shield doesn't move far enough away from your hand when you release it to really free anything up. (And if it does, you are going to have a hell of a time regripping your shield without your *other* hand being free, because your wrist doesn't bend far enough.)
I'm *not* saying that is how the rules actually work. Just that the interpretation isn't as ridiculous as it sounds at first.
ETA: Bucklers are different, of course.
I do think the current rules are a bit more action figurey than realistic, and an available hand should probably be limited to buckler-adjacent sorts.
Raise a Shield is the action most commonly used with shields. All shields, unless specifically noted or described otherwise, must be strapped to your arm and held in one hand, so you can’t hold anything with that hand and Raise a Shield, and you lose the shield’s benefits if that hand is no longer free. A buckler, however, doesn’t take up your hand, so you can Raise a Shield with a buckler if the hand is free (or, at the GM’s discretion, if it’s holding a simple, lightweight object that’s not a weapon).
What you can and can't do with a shield under certain conditions is clear from this passage.
What is not clear is "strapped." I think there's a reasonable expectation that it means there is a strap or straps on the inside of the shield. Your arm goes through them. I think it's clear from the above section, "you lose the shield's benefits if that hand is no longer free." that the strap is expected to keep the shield equipped on your arm even if you want to use that hand for something else. You would lose the shield's benefits if it fell on the ground, so of course the strap keeps the shield on your arm even if your hand isn't wielding it.
Where there continues to be an unknown about shields is what does strapping and unstrapping require? There is no mention of strapping shields anywhere else in core. Does it take any action to strap? To unstrap? What if you want to drop your shield? Can we assume it's no action for either since it isn't defined or mentioned as being 1 action or a free action? If you score a critical success to disarm someone of their shield, it says, "the object falls to the ground in the target's space." Strapping doesn't say it has any effect. It's just mentioned in the text as a requirement. Disarm specifically says objects fall. I assume disarm wins, but it's weird not knowing if straps are supposed to do anything beyond keep the shield on your arm while you use your hand for something else.
It would be nice to have more explanation added about what "strapped" means like, "Shields are automatically strapped when wielded and unstrapped when dropped. Interacting with straps does not require any actions. Straps only keep the shield on your arm while using your hand for other activities but have no other effect." As is, it creates confusion.
I was going to ask this very question so thanks to the opening poster.
We had always worked on the basis that any shield other than a Buckler occupied that hand unless you spent the action to drop the shield and another action to wield it again.
So for example you couldn't take the following actions:
Action sequence A
1] spend an action to regrip a two handed weapon so it could be wielded;
2] spend an action attacking with that weapon;
FA] use a free action to release the second hand;
3] spend a final action to raise the shield (As the hand with the shield is now free).
This was because you would need to spend and action to drop the shield before before spending another action to wield the shield
Instead the order of actions would have to be:
Action sequence B
1] spend an action to regrip a two handed weapon so it could be wielded;
2] spend an action attacking with that weapon;
3] spend a free action to release the second hand from the weapon;
4] spend an action to wield the shield;
5] spend an action to raise the shield;
6] spend an action to drop the shield as per page 416 (Which wouldn't fall due to the strapping but would free up your hand);
Then you were back to 1].
The effect was that you couldn't use a shield with a two handed weapon
in practice because you would loose so many actions. For it to work you would then need some kind of ability that would allow you to combine some of these actions (Like the Lightning Swap feat).
Bucklers, on the other hand allowed you to freely grip a two handed weapon, or take an interact action and then providing you were not still holding a weapon in the buckler hand, raise the buckler. As a result you could use action sequence A with a buckler making using a buckler and two handed sword practical without needed any special feats. You could also use this rotation to free up your hand so you could use it for any actions that required a free hand before subsequently raising the buckler as your hand wouldn't be holding a weapon.
Recently however, this was raised in an organised play game so we did our usual process of retaining our previous approach for the session with a commitment to double check the rules at some point after the game. However, upon going through the rules I could not find a clear rule to support our existing ruling or our ruling on using the buckler.
So if anyone can point in the correct direction (To either support or overturn the ruling) that would be of great interest to me too.
Point 6 seems wrong, Release is a free action, not an action. Otherwise that seems mostly correct.
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-You lose the shields benefits if the hand is no longer Free.[/b]
This is the wierd part for me, Basically it states you can raise shield, then release and still benefit from it... not sure this is Rai or just in regards to the buckler.
Wielding Items
Source Player Core pg. 267Some abilities require you to wield an item, typically a weapon. You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively.
Raise a Shield
Source Player Core pg. 419
Requirements You are wielding a shield.
So, no, you can't release and benefit from a shield by the wielding rules.
Do you see the head-scratcher?
No, not really. You aren't wielding the shield and you need to continue to meet the requirement to continue to benefit from the action.
For instance, Take Cover has a requirement "You are benefiting from cover, are near a feature that allows you to take cover, or are prone." Would you argue that someone would continue to benefit from Cover after the feature they hide behind moved or got destroyed [or they stood up from prone]? I know I wouldn't and I don't see a difference between this and Raise shield. We aren't talking about a Trigger [which you only check when you initially use the action] but a Requirement [which you have to continually qualify for].
You're basically arguing that someone should be able to continue to benefit from using the action to parry after the weapon with the Parry trait is knocked out of their hand with a Disarm because it stated that "While wielding this weapon, if your proficiency with it is trained or better, you can spend a single action to position your weapon defensively, gaining a +1 circumstance bonus to AC until the start of your next turn." It's blatantly obvious in both parry, Take Cove and Raise Shield that you need to continually have the requirements to benefit from the bonuses.
I think the Bastion feat Nimble Shield Hand can give us some clarity.
The hand you use to wield a shield counts as a free hand for the purposes of the Interact action. You can also hold another object in this hand (but you still can’t use it to wield a weapon). This benefit doesn’t apply to tower shields, which are still too cumbersome.The way I read it, this feat allows you to have a "free hand" and still be wielding the shield. So the implication is that without this feat, you can treat your shield hand as a free hand, but then you can't also be wielding your shield.
This does imply that the OP is doing it correct, as long as you use an action to regrip the shield before using it.
The way I read this is, for the OP's player who doesn't have this feat (probably) that by releasing the shield they could mostly treat is as a free hand, but it does have the specific caveat that it can be used with a weapon.
In my mind, I think the shield even when not held, interferes with using a weapon. There are a couple other places that I think support this interpretation (specifically the buckler rules). If you wear a buckler you can benefit from it while holding an item in it (kind of like Nimble Shield Hand feat) but it still specifically precludes using a weapon.
Although maybe the benefit with a buckler/Nimble Shield hand is that you can use your shield (via Raise) while still having items in your hand and potentially doing other things.
It may be allowed that if you're willing to forgo benefits from your shield altogether that you can wield a weapon with that hand. It's not super clear to me whether or not a shield does/should interfere in such a way that it stop you from utilizing a weapon in that hand even if you give up it's use (but still have it strapped to your arm).
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In my mind, I think the shield even when not held, interferes with using a weapon.That’s my take as well, but I don’t think the rules back me up, so I’m probably going to keep letting the Champion PC two-hand his bastard sword with a shield strapped to his arm.
With needing to spend an action to grasp either sword or shield, and even if you allow releasing as a free action twice in one turn, the player will be spending 2 actions on grasping (if they want to have the shield benefit) and will need to spent a feat to get a free Raise shield action.
Honestly losing a single action to grasping is probably enough of a penalty on its own that everything else doesn't matter.
In my mind, I think the shield even when not held, interferes with using a weapon. There are a couple other places that I think support this interpretation (specifically the buckler rules). If you wear a buckler you can benefit from it while holding an item in it (kind of like Nimble Shield Hand feat) but it still specifically precludes using a weapon.
That's sort of the opposite of what happens with the buckler though. Nothing interferes with using a weapon, but the weapon interferes with using a buckler.
You can wield the weapon just fine, you just can't do things with your shield until you let go of it.