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(Normally I would put a small issue like this in the overall Necromancer feedback thread, but there doesn't seem to be one for this playtest! But half the reason I made this thread is for the pun in the name anyway.)
Hey everyone, real small issue here. I LOVE the weird, spooky, creepy, and even downright goopy flavor of the Necromancer's abilities. I adore every feat that references wrapping the muscles of a corpse around you, the shrapnel of bones flying out, or even "a wave of sticky, liquid flesh".
But very clearly, ALL of the best flavored abilities come from the visceral viscera of Zombie Thralls, with Skeletons in second place- and VERY little class space is spent making the ghosts sound as cool!
This is a VERY MINOR issue, and flavor IS free. But honestly, SO MANY of the abilities in the class are some theme on "you use guts and organs for cool effect", that I start to wonder how skeletons and ghosts would ever flavor some of the same abilities!
Have you all felt the same way? What are some cool ways to reimagine some of the more zombie-fitting abilities for our spectral pals?
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IMO Ghost thralls could have a not only a different flavor but also mechanic from other thralls. Instead of occupy an space like other thralls they could do some other effect like make an will check vs necromancer spell DC to not be frightened when enemies pass throught it or just do nothing but be able to fly and stay stoped in the air instead of falling when created in mid air to be useful in air encounters.
Justnobodyfqwl wrote:
(Normally I would put a small issue like this in the overall Necromancer feedback thread, but there doesn't seem to be one for this playtest! But half the reason I made this thread is for the pun in the name anyway.)
Hey everyone, real small issue here. I LOVE the weird, spooky, creepy, and even downright goopy flavor of the Necromancer's abilities. I adore every feat that references wrapping the muscles of a corpse around you, the shrapnel of bones flying out, or even "a wave of sticky, liquid flesh".
But very clearly, ALL of the best flavored abilities come from the visceral viscera of Zombie Thralls, with Skeletons in second place- and VERY little class space is spent making the ghosts sound as cool!
This is a VERY MINOR issue, and flavor IS free. But honestly, SO MANY of the abilities in the class are some theme on "you use guts and organs for cool effect", that I start to wonder how skeletons and ghosts would ever flavor some of the same abilities!
Have you all felt the same way? What are some cool ways to reimagine some of the more zombie-fitting abilities for our spectral pals?
Ectoplasm. Ectoplasm, EVERYWHERE!!! They may not have wanted to lean into it too hard because, at some point, ectoplasm became associated with the Athereal Plane, which is also associated with dreams and other stuff which could muddy the flavor, but that was the first thing I thought of when thinking about ghostly flavor, globs and strings of ectoplasm that bind to your target's soul temporarily, gaining strength from the soul of their target to creat temporary constructs of real-seeming bone, or just shells of glowing silvery-green goop.
TBH I was a bit surprised at how little ectoplasm showed up as a descriptor in any necro feats or abilities; I for sure thought the ghost summoner would be called the ectomancer, for example.
Spirit Monger subclass?
Become as Spirit feat?
Ectoplasmic Aura?
Recurring Nightmare?
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Finoan wrote: Spirit Monger subclass?
Become as Spirit feat?
Ectoplasmic Aura?
Recurring Nightmare?
I love all of those abilities, and i'm not saying "spirits get nothing thematic" or "there aren't spirit abilities". I'm saying "most abilities are super thematic and awesome, but in a very blood-and-guts way that feels hard to imagine unless you're playing with Zombies"
I just wanted to see if other people felt the same way, or if there's anything spirits could do that would be just as gnarly and tactile.
Perpdepog wrote: Ectoplasm. Ectoplasm, EVERYWHERE!!! They may not have wanted to lean into it too hard because, at some point, ectoplasm became associated with the Athereal Plane, which is also associated with dreams and other stuff which could muddy the flavor, but that was the first thing I thought of when thinking about ghostly flavor, globs and strings of ectoplasm that bind to your target's soul temporarily, gaining strength from the soul of their target to creat temporary constructs of real-seeming bone, or just shells of glowing silvery-green goop.
TBH I was a bit surprised at how little ectoplasm showed up as a descriptor in any necro feats or abilities; I for sure thought the ghost summoner would be called the ectomancer, for example.
Oh man, a childhood loving Ghostbusters and weird oozes has made me VERY predisposed to loving some good-old-fashioned ectoplasm. I think that's a good call for a very physical and tangible influence that spirits will leave behind to substitute for "a wave of warm, liquid flesh".
God, I love that phrase. A wave of warm, liquid flesh. It's awful in the best way.
Don't forget that Pathfinder has already heavily associated ectoplasm with ghostly things in the past; the 1st ed. spiritualist class is a good example. Substituting ectoplasm for the more fleshy abilities would be fairly on brand. As a personal note, the depiction of ectoplasm in Dark Archives as having a kind of goopy textile, cheesecloth appearance, possibly as a nod to Victorian mediums using cheesecloth to simulate ectoplasm, is fantastic. I hope that kind of visual design is carried over into the art used for the necromancer class's ghostly abilities as well
PunkLion wrote: Don't forget that Pathfinder has already heavily associated ectoplasm with ghostly things in the past; the 1st ed. spiritualist class is a good example. Substituting ectoplasm for the more fleshy abilities would be fairly on brand. As a personal note, the depiction of ectoplasm in Dark Archives as having a kind of goopy textile, cheesecloth appearance, possibly as a nod to Victorian mediums using cheesecloth to simulate ectoplasm, is fantastic. I hope that kind of visual design is carried over into the art used for the necromancer class's ghostly abilities as well I love that! The ties to Victorian-era occultism crazes is so fun.
I wonder if there's anyway you can introduce yourself as "a goopy, textile Necromancer" without the rest of the party snickering under their breath....
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YuriP wrote: IMO Ghost thralls could have a not only a different flavor but also mechanic from other thralls. Instead of occupy an space like other thralls they could do some other effect like make an will check vs necromancer spell DC to not be frightened when enemies pass throught it or just do nothing but be able to fly and stay stoped in the air instead of falling when created in mid air to be useful in air encounters. That's definitely a niche that should be explored.
Giving each thrall a distinct mechanical effect might offer a lot of variety baked in.
Bone Thralls can be the "flanky" ones. Flesh Thralls could be the "grabby" ones (maybe not grapple from the get go, just immobilize or speed penalty) and ghost thralls could be the spooky ones.
That would make Necromancers even more mechanically distinct from each other.
Lightning Raven wrote: YuriP wrote: IMO Ghost thralls could have a not only a different flavor but also mechanic from other thralls. Instead of occupy an space like other thralls they could do some other effect like make an will check vs necromancer spell DC to not be frightened when enemies pass throught it or just do nothing but be able to fly and stay stoped in the air instead of falling when created in mid air to be useful in air encounters. That's definitely a niche that should be explored.
Giving each thrall a distinct mechanical effect might offer a lot of variety baked in.
Bone Thralls can be the "flanky" ones. Flesh Thralls could be the "grabby" ones (maybe not grapple from the get go, just immobilize or speed penalty) and ghost thralls could be the spooky ones.
That would make Necromancers even more mechanically distinct from each other. I was considering this, with the qualm that one type will likely outshine (or undershine?) the other two. Or that one would want the ability to switch (which might be a feat, but should it be a given?).
To avoid the undershide and give more flexibility to thralls an elegant solution is to give a feat similar to Multifarious Muse and Order Explorer allowing necromancers to have multiple thralls types if the player wants.
Also this could organize and empower the thralls feats a bit more or remove the focus points requirements making most of them pure cantrips or cantrips with amps but organizing them into thralls type category like feats that uses bones requires Bone Shaper, feats that uses flash requires Flesh Magician, feats that uses spirits requires Spirit monger.
Empower these feats also may help to justify the necromancer being a 2 spellslot per rank once that now their focus spells have more resource and action requirements than druids and bards feats so they needs to be way more stronger.
If Paizo can balance it, and not make the feat to access all three feel mandatory, I'm all for it. And I'd embrace a diversity of feats, or different effects/damage types for the same feat depending on undead type.
I also think Necromancer should lean away from Focus Points not in getting away from the current ones, but by comparing them to Kineticist abilities which can be spammed (and w/o Thralls, even if they do have different costs/investments). Except to rush to a pool of 3, some of the low-level ones are worthless because they will soon not be worth the Focus Point. I imagine much Retraining w/ this class, which seems a flaw IMO. One comparison point is how many Focus Spells in other classes upgrade at the level that rival Focus spells become available.
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I personally was just going to reflavor everything to fit the spirit subclass, personally. Grasping limbs? A giant spectral mass of arms :)
AestheticDialectic wrote: I personally was just going to reflavor everything to fit the spirit subclass, personally. Grasping limbs? A giant spectral mass of arms :) I'd love to hear about how you end up reflavoring everything! Grasping limbs especially was something that was hard to think of a tactile flavor for
Justnobodyfqwl wrote: AestheticDialectic wrote: I personally was just going to reflavor everything to fit the spirit subclass, personally. Grasping limbs? A giant spectral mass of arms :) I'd love to hear about how you end up reflavoring everything! Grasping limbs especially was something that was hard to think of a tactile flavor for I'll try to remember to say tomorrow, but one thing I was thinking of for the most difficult stuff was just having my spirits pooling up the blood, bones and viscera into these larger thrall forms where the ghostly aspects making up the physical gaps in the "body"
For stuff like the muscle barrier and stuff, I think it's just spectral instead, and the damaged versions I believe can become spirit or void with the spirit subclass? Unsure if that's raw, but I think it should be the case
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