| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This class looks like a lot of fun!
I am running Blood Lords, and I just want to bring up two things that have come up that I want to share.
I just made a video saying that the Necromancer's class feature lets you use Void Warp on undead, but the spell says it must target a "living creature." I just want to make sure the design team is aware of this existing in the spell, and also this is not the only time a spell says something like this.
Second, the necromancer's Level 3 reaction to raise a thrall is triggered when an enemy creature "dies." I have a player who wants to respec their wizard into a necromancer for the rest of the campaign, which I'm allowing. And their Mastery of Life and Death class feature seems well-suited for this campaign. But I realize that this reaction doesn't work against the undead who make up the majority of their foes. So I am considering houseruling that so they can substitute that ability for their subclass' "Thrall Enhancement" feature. (EDIT: I'm offering it as a homebrewed Level 1 class feat, so that one isn't pigeonholed into 1 subclass if they are in Geb.)
(I know that's technically a no-no for playtesting, but it is such an unusual campaign that I thought it was warranted.)
I'm bringing this up to make sure you know that it doesn't work against undead foes, and this might also be a possible future subclass idea! (Or a feat idea)
I just made a video saying that the Necromancer's class feature lets you use Void Warp on undead, but the spell says it must target a "living creature."
I had to go look through things for a bit again to make sure I was understanding correctly.
You are talking about the initial class feature Mastery of Life and Death, yes?
That one that says that you can cast spells such as Void Warp to deal either Void damage or Vitality damage.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The problem is Void Warp only works on Living targets is the problem here but by that logic just pick up vitality lash...Oh look it's Divine and Primal only, well I now see the issue even more. I'd say for the main class of Necromancer maybe allow them to use Void Warp on Undead or Learn Vitality Lash.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You are talking about the initial class feature Mastery of Life and Death, yes?
That one that says that you can cast spells such as Void Warp to deal either Void damage or Vitality damage.
It doesn't actually say that. It says:
"Whenever you cast a spell or use an ability that
would deal void or vitality damage, use the weaker of the
target’s resistance or immunity to void or to vitality."
It is still Void Damage.
It just ignores "Immunity Void Damage" unless the target also has "Immunity Vitality Damage"
But unless this is intended to rewrite the rules as "all living creatures are immune to vitality damage, and all undead are immune to void damage" it doesn't actually work. Because the rules seem to say that void damage just doesn't even target undead.
(Note that Void Healing, which is what this is probably intended to interact with, is in HP, not Immunities on most creatures. And as mentioned they need to be able to target undead with "target living" and target living with "target undead" spells.)
And the example:
For instance, if the creature were immune to void and had no resistance or immunity to vitality damage, it would take vitality damage from the spell or ability.
indicates that a skeleton enemy - which is immune to Void damage and has no resistance or immunity to Vitality damage, would take Vitality damage from Void Warp.
Unless you are arguing that this ability only applies to spells or abilities that would deal both Void damage and Vitality damage in the one casting. At which point the entire purpose of the ability is very, very niche use.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And the example:
For instance, if the creature were immune to void and had no resistance or immunity to vitality damage, it would take vitality damage from the spell or ability.indicates that a skeleton enemy - which is immune to Void damage and has no resistance or immunity to Vitality damage, would take Vitality damage from Void Warp.
Unless you are arguing that this ability only applies to spells or abilities that would deal both Void damage and Vitality damage in the one casting. At which point the entire purpose of the ability is very, very niche use.
No, the stickler here is that Void Warp has a target that specifically says "Targets 1 living creature" since that skeleton is not a living creature, it still cannot be targeted by Void Warp as the ability says nothing about changing the targeting parameters.
Oof. I hadn't realized how awkward the reaction was in an undead heavy campaign. That's definitely something to address. Recycling the leftover dregs of undead foes should definitely be allowed in my opinion.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I refuse to dig into all the permutations of this, but I expect it doesn't work in the same way the bones oracle curse probably doesn't work the way they intended.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, the stickler here is that Void Warp has a target that specifically says "Targets 1 living creature" since that skeleton is not a living creature, it still cannot be targeted by Void Warp as the ability says nothing about changing the targeting parameters.
Right. What I am arguing is that this targeting problem is the only problem. The ability works as long as you can target the undead creature properly.
Honestly, I am not sure why spells need to make the distinction for living/undead creatures. The living and Void Healing designation will take care of having the Vitality and Void healing things do their stuff (or not do anything) correctly automatically. If Void Warp was changed so that it only targets 'one creature', there would be no problems with casting it on a skeleton. A non-necromancer casting Void Warp on a skeleton would be wasting a couple actions is all. It wouldn't hurt the skeleton any.
All that having spells change their behavior based on living/undead does is makes Heal and Harm behave very strangely when cast on a living creature with Void Healing. Strangely enough that it needs houserules to work as intended.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The main reason for the it is probably to help out new players, who might not know the specific particular on how void damage work, or is familiar with necrotic damage in something like 5e, and thinking that it's just a normal damage type that can effect everyone. Making it state that it target only living creatures add another layer of feedback that tells that this spell is something that don't work on undead (and construct).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I refuse to dig into all the permutations of this, but I expect it doesn't work in the same way the bones oracle curse probably doesn't work the way they intended.
Considering how long that's been a problem for, I'm honestly a bit baffled that we got a playtest featuring another ability with the same basic problem before we got errata to fix the problem.
The spells need their targeting changed so that it works with these kind of abilities, rather than having an ability that changes this and then having the spells totally ignore that and put things into an effectively nonfunctional state that requires house rules.
The main reason for the it is probably to help out new players, who might not know the specific particular on how void damage work, or is familiar with necrotic damage in something like 5e, and thinking that it's just a normal damage type that can effect everyone. Making it state that it target only living creatures add another layer of feedback that tells that this spell is something that don't work on undead (and construct).
Except that it effectively breaks as soon as you use something like Bones Oracle, or Nudge the Scales, or anything that gives you the "wrong" healing type... because the spells don't change targeting to match that. You wind up with someone who is "Living" so can't be targeted by Vitality Lash, but actually takes Vitality damage so should be a valid target, while being a valid target for Void Warp but being immune to it. Or someone being immune to the Healing from Heal but not targetable for the damage at the same time.
If this was supposed to be some kind of shortcut to help players, it's an incredibly ill-concieved one.
|
|
And the example:
For instance, if the creature were immune to void and had no resistance or immunity to vitality damage, it would take vitality damage from the spell or ability.indicates that a skeleton enemy - which is immune to Void damage and has no resistance or immunity to Vitality damage, would take Vitality damage from Void Warp.
Unless you are arguing that this ability only applies to spells or abilities that would deal both Void damage and Vitality damage in the one casting. At which point the entire purpose of the ability is very, very niche use.
Skeletons are not immune to void. (If they were they would not be healed by it either.)
Immunities death effects, disease, mental, paralyzed, poison, unconscious;
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Spells can't target objects either. Yet GM advice in numerous locations say players should be permitted to blow up red barrels and the like with their spells.
So don't overthink it and let you players zap the undead.
The Strike action itself is unable to Strike objects because it says "targeting one creature within your reach (for a melee attack) or within range (for a ranged attack)" but we allow the players to Strike objects for obvious reasons.
Anyway make clarifications each GM judge in a different way is always good.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And the example:
For instance, if the creature were immune to void and had no resistance or immunity to vitality damage, it would take vitality damage from the spell or ability.indicates that a skeleton enemy - which is immune to Void damage and has no resistance or immunity to Vitality damage, would take Vitality damage from Void Warp.
Unless you are arguing that this ability only applies to spells or abilities that would deal both Void damage and Vitality damage in the one casting. At which point the entire purpose of the ability is very, very niche use.
Skeletons are not immune to void. (If they were they would not be healed by it either.)
Immunities death effects, disease, mental, paralyzed, poison, unconscious;
Skeletons have Void Healing, so they're immune to void damage.
Right. What I am arguing is that this targeting problem is the only problem. The ability works as long as you can target the undead creature properly.Honestly, I am not sure why spells need to make the distinction for living/undead creatures. The living and Void Healing designation will take care of having the Vitality and Void healing things do their stuff (or not do anything) correctly automatically. If Void Warp was changed so that it only targets 'one creature', there would be no problems with casting it on a skeleton. A non-necromancer casting Void Warp on a skeleton would be wasting a couple actions is all. It wouldn't hurt the skeleton any.
All that having spells change their behavior based on living/undead does is makes Heal and Harm behave very strangely when cast on a living creature with Void Healing. Strangely enough that it needs houserules to work as intended.
On a similar note, our Blood Lords group ran up against the strangeness that Battle Medicine, post Remaster, can now be used on undead creatures because it is a Healing effect that lacks the Vitality trait. However, Treat Wounds says you target "one injured living creature," so Stitch Flesh is still required to Treat Wounds. You can do a 1-action patchup of an undead creature, but if it lasts 10 minutes? Nope!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
On a similar note, our Blood Lords group ran up against the strangeness that Battle Medicine, post Remaster, can now be used on undead creatures because it is a Healing effect that lacks the Vitality trait. However, Treat Wounds says you target "one injured living creature," so Stitch Flesh is still required to Treat Wounds. You can do a 1-action patchup of an undead creature, but if it lasts 10 minutes? Nope!
Yeah I don't know what they were thinking on that. If I ran a campaign involving undead I'd just house rule that treat wounds works normally. Stich Flesh is just a feat tax for very specific kinds of PCs.