What might you consider to be a "particularly unobtrusive action" for determining whether or not you risk becoming Observed, per the Hide and Sneak actions? Would you roll a new Stealth check for the player in question?
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It is completely subjective and may change based on the narrative description.
Recall Knowledge. Or other purely mental things like Hunt Prey. I wouldn't require an additional check for those.
Mostly mental actions that do require some movement would need an additional check. So Exploit Vulnerability would need a check to get your Esoterica available.
Similarly for actions that require small amounts of movement whether they require much thought or not. Like drawing an Implement. Or for non-Thaumaturge characters, drawing a weapon would need a check as well.
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Honestly, I don't think you could even put together a list.
Because if I'm GMing, the circumstances of how you're hidden and what is happening around you will likely play into my decision of whether or not it requires an additional check.
You're hidden behind a wall and want to draw a potion from a bandolier while combat is happening between other characters and you're undetected to all of them...I'm probably not going to make you roll.
But if you're the solo target, the enemy was aware of you but you managed to hide and they're looking for you...that same potion draw probably now demands you roll stealth again to do it unnoticed.
The alternative that I would tell players is that instead only purely mental actions wouldn't require an additional check, and that in certain circumstances I'm trying to give them a "bonus" of sorts by not having to make an additional roll (which means an additional chance of failure).
Factors like ambient sound levels, focus (or lack thereof) on you in particular, and what you're doing all would impact my decision as a GM.
I think we can all agree purely mental actions should count as unobtrusive, and anything beyond that is a maybe.
Heck, given the right circumstances even things that would typically be giveaways might not. Sure drawing a weapon would usually be obtrusive.
But if you're drawing a weapon in the middle of a cloud of smoke with bombs going off, dirt spraying everywhere, gun shots, etc...drawing your weapon is no longer going to be noticeable unless someone is focused on you in particular.
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It's entirely contextual. So the GM knows who is looking for the player and what they're thinking (how smart they are etc.) but the player doesn't necessarily. So if a player does something my question is "could that potentially give away the presence of the PC in this context."
Like "I'm going to pull the map out of my pack and look at it" might be unobtrustive (if, say, the rustling of paper would not stand out in this context due to ambient noise) but it would be obtrusive if the context is especially quiet.
Basically the conversation goes via the player asking "Can I do [action] without having to make a stealth check?" and then I make a call.
Honestly, there's an argument that the character and player wouldn't know confidently whether or not the enemies would notice. Assuming the player is trying to be somewhat discrete, they probably should always roll stealth but the GM might ignore it under certain conditions. Somewhat like a secret roll.
Imagine you're trying to sneak through a building, that appears empty, but you're being careful and continue to try to be stealthy anyways. Maybe no one is there to notice so the roll doesn't matter. But maybe someone is there and you haven't realized it.
Of course, for efficiency sake as a GM I tend to tell players not to roll when the outcome doesn't actually matter.
It's a question I've begun to contemplate lately, because I was theory-crafting a Toxicologist that actually uses Blowgun Poisoner. Largely because man, pulling off a crit Blowgun Strike would have a ton of style.
So, if I'm using Avoid Notice and I have my Blowgun in one hand and my usual flask of Quicksilver Mutagen, will the GM let me down the Mutagen without breaking Stealth?
Similarly, as I have a chance to remain Hidden, can I draw my second (of four) poisoned Blowguns? Or a poisoned Javelin?
Just theorycrafting. I have no plans on playing such a Toxicologist anytime soon.
It's a question I've begun to contemplate lately, because I was theory-crafting a Toxicologist that actually uses Blowgun Poisoner. Largely because man, pulling off a crit Blowgun Strike would have a ton of style.
So, if I'm using Avoid Notice and I have my Blowgun in one hand and my usual flask of Quicksilver Mutagen, will the GM let me down the Mutagen without breaking Stealth?
Similarly, as I have a chance to remain Hidden, can I draw my second (of four) poisoned Blowguns? Or a poisoned Javelin?
Just theorycrafting. I have no plans on playing such a Toxicologist anytime soon.
As I mentioned before, at least for me the circumstances in which you're doing these actions matter.
If I imagine a "white room" with just you, an enemy, and something for you to hide behind (also keep in mind Avoid Notice is an exploration activity) I would say in this scenario trying to drink the potion or draw another weapon will at least require another check to remain hidden. Drawing the javelin I would probably make break stealth. A blowgun depending on where it's kept might not.
Honestly overall it still is highly dependent on what else is happening around you.
Since this thread was brought back up, I feel I should point out the recent Errata/Clarification on the subject.
Page 245: We've added a couple examples of unobtrusive actions that don’t cause you to become hidden or observed. This should make it clear for a couple common circumstances and help guide the GM in deciding what other actions might qualify. In the Being Stealthy sidebar, after the examples of things that make you observed, add “Unobtrusive actions, such as Recalling Knowledge or reloading a weapon, allow you to remain hidden or undetected.”
If drawing ammunition to reload a weapon is unobtrusive enough, drawing a light bulk weapon probably should be as well.
Still questionable if drawing a 1 bulk or larger weapon would be.
Since this thread was brought back up, I feel I should point out the recent Errata/Clarification on the subject.
Page 245: We've added a couple examples of unobtrusive actions that don’t cause you to become hidden or observed. This should make it clear for a couple common circumstances and help guide the GM in deciding what other actions might qualify. In the Being Stealthy sidebar, after the examples of things that make you observed, add “Unobtrusive actions, such as Recalling Knowledge or reloading a weapon, allow you to remain hidden or undetected.”If drawing ammunition to reload a weapon is unobtrusive enough, drawing a light bulk weapon probably should be as well.
Still questionable if drawing a 1 bulk or larger weapon would be.
That sort of falls in line with my thinking above. A blowgun is a light (and relatively small) weapon so it makes sense that it might be able to drawn unobtrusively. However, even though a javelin is also a light weapon, javelins are generally long weapons. At least the kind of javelin I'm familiar with, so I wouldn't allow that to be drawn inconspicuously. Even atlatl darts that I'm familiar with are so long that I wouldn't allow them to be drawn unobtrusively.
I don't think bulk alone is good enough guidance.
Although...maybe in the sense of "throwing your players a bone" you just allow anything of Light bulk even if some items don't really fit in my mind.
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really depends on the weapon, but I would say most weapons that dont have moving parts are completely safe if you are unseen
-> remember kids, if your sword actuall goes 'shwing' when you draw it, its time to replace the scabbard
if you want to ambush someone crossbows should probably be pre-cranked and pulling a bow is usually rather silent too
(and the ammo can be silenced in the quiver with enough padding)
but good luck staying completely silent with an (unmodified) spiked chain
I would also say that if the weapon you draw is larger then your cover, you should rething if you can properly hide behind it and if it should be drawn already at that point
i.e. the above mentioned javelin, if you duck behind a crate and have it lengthswise ready, it can be stealthy
moving away from weapons (and items in general)
I agree that purely mental actions (the not magically enhanced kind at least) wont give you away
beyond that, it really does depend on the circumstances and judgements should be made by the gm with a measure of logical thinking and good faith towards the characters and the players ideas
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I mean, whether you're pulling out a blowgun or a tuba, I'm always going to ask the player to make a justification of "how you are storing it, how you are pulling it out stealthily, etc." before I would make a call on "particularly unobtrusive" or "roll stealth" or "you are observed."
That sort of falls in line with my thinking above. A blowgun is a light (and relatively small) weapon so it makes sense that it might be able to drawn unobtrusively. However, even though a javelin is also a light weapon, javelins are generally long weapons. At least the kind of javelin I'm familiar with, so I wouldn't allow that to be drawn inconspicuously. Even atlatl darts that I'm familiar with are so long that I wouldn't allow them to be drawn unobtrusively.
I don't think bulk alone is good enough guidance.
Although...maybe in the sense of "throwing your players a bone" you just allow anything of Light bulk even if some items don't really fit in my mind.
If you're out of line of sight when you draw it there's a good chance that an IRL guard wouldn't even notice the end of a javelin sticking out past a desk or pillar. Unless you're actively looking for something people are remarkably change blind and prone to flat-out ignoring things they don't expect to see.
I'd generally err on the side of the player trying to be stealthy in light of the very real examples of how often people fail to see things.
I understand what you're saying, but drawing a weapon isn't even specifically an example of things that count as an unobtrusive action. Reloading specifically was the example given. We're already looking at extending that to cover more things.
As a GM, if a player pushed too much or if I was worried about balance between players I'd be more likely to rule no one can draw a weapon than allow only some weapons. Or maybe I'd just say screw it and allow all weapons. Probably just a gut check as it's happening.