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I find in interesting that a character has the craft skill, but doesn't want to invest into it.
I guess it's an "extra" skill that the player didn't plan on advancing.
In reality it only requires the "craft magic item" skill feat to be able to transfer runes. If the player does plan on advancing crafting proficiency, they should spend their skill feats on something, and it's not a bad choice.
Still, if they really don't want to you can pay an NPC to do it.
In reality it only requires the "craft magic item" skill feat to be able to transfer runes.Well, there's also " This uses the Craft activity" and " If the item is 9th level or higher, you must be a master in Crafting, and if it's 17th or higher, you must be legendary" in transferring runes and Craft. Is it relevant? Probably yes.
That's fair. I guess I'm too used to thinking that if you have the skill, you're going to invest in increasing proficiency, so I often ignore that certain things require advancing proficiency.
Technically I believe the cost for an NPC to do it is normally the same cost for the PC to do it, if they had the capability. You could also add the time needed (minimum is normally 1 day). for the level of the NPC @ the particular Rank in Crafting needed to do the transfer.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to ask the GM if it would be possible for a PC with Trained in crafting to potentially move a rune from a runestone to a weapon, potential even if they don't have magical crafting. It would still be their call, but the Runestone is expended in the process if it becomes empty, so there is an expenditure. I could see a GM potentially requiring Magical Crafting, and the materials expenditure to do a rune swap, as that would enable the runestone to remain, I believe.
Typically, crafting in PF2 isn't cheaper, it is just something that lets you control who does it, and may make it available to be done in the wilds, rather than back in town.
Is there a way to calculate the cost of they used an NPC?
Not really. Not an authoritative explicit listed cost.
There are some options that may work. In all of these cases, these would be the cost for the labor. The party would have to also pay the 10% material cost for the rune transfer as well.
There are prices for skilled hirelings. That doesn't scale though.
You could treat it as the NPC using Earn Income.
Thanks for the Skilled Hirelings link, I was trying to find it, and just couldn't seem to remember what to search for.
From Runestone -> Item [free]
Transferring one rune from one item to another (including runestone) [10% rune value]
Swapping between two items [10% of highest rune value]
Potentially depending on your interpretation, if you happen to be swapping runes between a runestone and an item, the cost may be only 10% of the rune coming from the item and being swapped onto the runestone, since the cost of transfer from the runestone is probably still defined as free.
Cost of labor for it could be assumed to be part of the above cost, but unless you have given the shopkeeper a lot of business it is reasonable to think the Free transfer of a rune would cost something, since it does take up their day in theory. The amount in the Earn an Income seems like a reasonable amount, but is never actually specified as being relevant for the amount you pay any NPC if you want to be technical.
Really, the 10% is generally the 'significant' part of the cost of a transfer when it exists, and I'm not certain the developers felt the rest of it was normally worth mentioning, and therefore generally absorbed by the above.
I recall a situation just recently where a low level party found a rune on a weapon they didn't want. As it worked out, the cost for the transfer, which I only used the 10%, forgot about any other option for the time, worked out to be within a few silvers of the value of the mundane equipment that they had brought back to sell. With the values being so close, I decided to have the individual do the swap for the swap of materials.
This might not be an entirely unlikely occurrence, so you might look for such potential options for trades.
Is there a way to calculate the cost of they used an NPC?
Sure, assume the NPC has assurance and will take as long as it takes to get the maximum discount or charge twice the base cost if the party want it asap.
Pf2e like most modern dnd likes assumes npcs buy at half and sell at full. Meaning they want a 100% return for their time and resources (which makes sense rough enoughly)
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I just use 10 percent of the rune cost, if the PCs supply the rune per what Loreguard posted above, and rune cost plus 10 percent if they have to buy it.
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rune cost plus 10 percent if they have to buy it.
Why would you be upcharging the cost of the rune by 10% when purchased new? The listed price for a new rune is for having the rune engraved on your equipment.
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I'd say on a runestone. But still free to transfer.rune cost plus 10 percent if they have to buy it.Why would you be upcharging the cost of the rune by 10% when purchased new? The listed price for a new rune is for having the rune engraved on your equipment.
Buying a new rune on a runestone would cost 10% more than the listed price?
Again - why?
The cost of crafting the rune in place is just the cost of crafting the rune. Why would we be adding in the 10% transfer cost when an NPC crafts the rune in its final desired location?
-_- I didn't say that.Buying a new rune on a runestone would cost 10% more than the listed price?I'd say on a runestone. But still free to transfer.rune cost plus 10 percent if they have to buy it.Why would you be upcharging the cost of the rune by 10% when purchased new? The listed price for a new rune is for having the rune engraved on your equipment.
Then I seriously don't understand what you did say.
That a price for a new rune is for a rune on a runestone. Which is free to transfer from and doesn't add any 10% to the cost. As you say.
Though is it written that "a stone holding a rune adds the Price of the rune" not like on equipment which ignores price of equipment. So maybe your version is better.
OK. So not making a statement one way or the other on Lia Wynn's proposal that buying a new rune for a weapon will cost the rune's cost plus 10%.
?? Are you kidding me? FFS. No, runes cost what they cost, not 1.1 times cost. Work could still cost something, but on the scale of mentioned Earn Income, not 10% of rune's cost.
That's my thought too. But I also can't figure out any other way to interpret the second part of this post than as saying that buying a brand new rune will cost the rune's cost plus 10% to have it transferred onto the weapon.
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This is what I just pulled from the GM Core, page 225:
"The DC of the Crafting check to transfer a rune is determined by the item level of the rune being transferred, and the Price of the transfer is 10% of the rune’s Price, unless transferring from a runestone, which is free. If you’re swapping, use the higher level and higher Price between the two runes to determine these values. It takes 1 day (instead of the 4 days usually needed to Craft) to transfer a rune or swap a pair of runes, and you can continue to work over additional days to get a discount, as usual with Craft."
So, 10% of the value of the Rune to move it from one object to another, but it's free to move off of a Runestone.
That's my thought too. But I also can't figure out any other way to interpret the second part of this post than as saying that buying a brand new rune will cost the rune's cost plus 10% to have it transferred onto the weapon.
Because if you are paying for the rune, it is being assumed the item already exists on a runestone. Which while free to transfer from, cost the seller gold to transfer to in the first place.
So ultimately your cost options would be:
1. Buy a basic magic item outright, the cost is the cost of the sum of the fundamental runes if it is in stock, obtain instantly.
2. Upgrade an existing item's rune to a higher level version, no transfer cost, pay the difference and expect a longer wait.
3. Buy a rune on a runestone to apply to your item. Rune cost, transfer cost and time, runestone cost. Which would be (runecost*1.1)
4. Transfer an owned rune from an item, pay transfer cost, wait transfer time.
5. Transfer an owned rune from a runestone, wait transfer time, pay labour fee (gm fiat, but a sensible fee is 50% of what the rune transfer would have been since that is usually the cost of their labour minus expenses)
(I should mention that I am not saying there is a right or wrong way to run it, just that if you are trying to find guidance via the rules this is the closest as far as I can see)
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3. Buy a rune on a runestone to apply to your item. Rune cost, transfer cost and time, runestone cost. Which would be (runecost*1.1)Where did this cost of 1.1x come from again? And it seems in the point 5 you remember that transfer cost is actually free if from a runestone, not 0.1x.
It feels like people are forgetting that if you craft a rune (Etching Process), it is already on something.
Crafting a rune on a runestone only costs the price of the rune. The shopkeeper doesn't craft the rune in the air and then have to transfer it onto the runestone.
Similarly, if you commission a magical shopkeeper to craft a rune on your weapon, then it is already on your weapon and it doesn't need to be transferred anywhere.
So a rune on a runestone being sold in a shop should be being sold for straight listed cost of the rune. And transferring the rune to your equipment is free because that is the rule for transferring from a runestone.
And if you have a rune crafted onto your weapon it should also be straight listed cost of the rune. It isn't being transferred anywhere.
The shopkeeper (and PCs that use the crafting rules themselves) can earn a profit on the process because they craft the rune for less than the listed price. They then sell the rune for the full listed price and pocket the difference.
Responding to the original question about NPCs transferring at a cost, Fists of the Ruby Phoenix has a section where a merchant will offer to transfer a rune for PCs at 5% of the rune price on top of the usual costs. I've always considered that a good cost for getting a merchant to transfer if your party is unable to do it.