| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
With the release of Divine Mysteries, clerics and other divine casters have just become masters of swinging encounter numbers (and I mean more than just hit points).
For those who do not have Divine Mysteries yet, the 1st-rank benediction spell is essentially bless, but increases AC instead of attacks. The 1st-rank spell, malediction, is like bane, but it decreases enemy AC rather than attacks.
So in two rounds you can open up with benediction and bane to essentially swing the party's defense by 2 points in the party's favor. Alternatively, open up with bless and malediction to swing the party's offense by 2 points. The latter stacks with offguard as well, so as early as 1st-level your divine caster and a few flankers can swing the numbers by 4 points by round 2 for the rest of the fight. Suddenly everyone is a fighter. XD
Pretty cool if you ask me.
It's still worse than Bards.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not worse; it's different. Bards swing wider, divine casters swing deeper (particularly at low levels). What's more, some of those spells effectively stack with bardic abilities, making for even more of a force multiplier.
A cleric who has a bard in the party with courageous anthem can just cast malediction in the opening round before watching the martials in the party just roll over the enemy.
If the bard casts dirge of doom, then the cleric can cast bless.
Teamwork makes the dream work. :)
Bards have better proficiencies, effects, and spell lists.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bards have better proficiencies, effects, and spell lists.
Subjective opinion. It all depends on what you're going for and what you enjoy.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Swinging numbers by up to 2 will be hard. The area is really small for Bane and Malediction so you need to Sustain them to get enemies inside. And then, there's the save. And I don't speak of the time to cast all of that.
If the bard casts dirge of doom, then the cleric can cast bless.
Or the Bard can cast both Dirge of Doom and Bless and swing numbers by 2 in a single round :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cleric is a real power class now after the Remaster. I'm playing one right now and they are brutal. Lots of healing, bless is much better and sounds like it's getting even better. Lots of nice feats now. No longer needs charisma so can focus on four stats. Can blast for spirit damage which hits almost everything.
Cleric may be the most boosted class in the Remaster.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bards have better proficiencies, effects, and spell lists.
Outdated opinion. Divine list is the best list post-remaster and cleric is the strongest class
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Clerics were already VERY strong, and Benediction/Malediction are another powerful tool in their toolkit. Not overwhelming or anything, but a welcome addition to a buffer/debuffer style character.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maestro Bards can do this as well*, with their 60 ft. auras, and without a saving throw. You just don't see them do it because the action cost to get it online is excessive unless you just want to be a stationary buff bot. Which, given the smaller size of the auras, is all our cleric is doing as well.
*Harmonize one composition cantrip, use lingering composition on another)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
*Harmonize one composition cantrip, use lingering composition on another)
Harmonize and Lingering Composition don't mesh well.
But as I said: Bless + Dirge of Doom and you swing the numbers by 2 in a single round. So the Cleric is still not at Bard level of buffing (which I consider normal, buffing is the Bard shtick, healing the Cleric one). I also don't understand why there's so much praise for Benediction and Malediction. Overall, they don't add much to Bane and Bless, not enough to change the Cleric's role.
I've also never understood the praise around the Cleric. But that's certainly a discussion for somewhere else.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While it's nice to see battle auras that modify AC, there seems to be this really wacky running notion that a character can realistically lay down all of these auras for massive accuracy differentials, when doing so would cost you 8 actions and 4 spell slots for a relative +2 to your team's Strikes and AC (assuming everything happens 10 feet from you and the enemy fails both their Will saves for bane and malediction). In my opinion, this isn't actually all that amazing when factoring in the costs, especially when as Squark mentioned, a Bard can spend a single action and zero daily resources to output power another caster would need a spell slot and six actions to emulate, without factoring in the benefit to damage rolls and saves. The same can be said for rallying anthem, and with one use of lingering composition and one of Harmonize, your Bard can produce far stronger benefits for your team for far fewer actions (and again, no daily resource expenditure).
I think there are two issues with these spells as written: the first is that these spells don't increase their status bonus or penalty as they heighten, so when divine and occult casters can already access heroism for an increasing bonus to all non-flat checks that they can cast prior to an encounter, bless in particular becomes increasingly more difficult to justify. The second is that because these spells cost two actions to cast, any hybrid caster who wants to use these benefits to then wade into combat and Strike is going to have a fair bit of trouble with just one remaining action (and good luck trying to do this every turn with a different aura). In my opinion, all of these spells could have benefited from some common changes, specifically:
I suppose this relates to the Battle Harbinger discussion too, but I feel that class archetype would've been much more attractive if these aura spells had been structured as above, instead of having similar power locked behind feats. A +1/-1 aura might certainly be nice on a 1st-rank spell, but at higher spell ranks, casters can easily do better.
Those spells are fine, for a rank 1 spell they are actually above average.
If I would rank that category of spells between themselves would be Bless > Malediction > Benediction > Bane.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Those spells are fine, for a rank 1 spell they are actually above average.
If I would rank that category of spells between themselves would be Bless > Malediction > Benediction > Bane.
Yes, for rank 1 spells they are fine.
But I disagree with your ranking. Malediction and Bane are rather bad due to the small area and save. You should always choose Bless and Benediction over them and you should actually never get to the point where you'll need to cast one of them.Between Bless and Benediction it depends on the enemy. If the enemies are physical attackers then Benediction will beat Bless most of the time. If the enemies are using save-based attacks then Bless gets higher value. But overall Benediction should be better.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
While it's nice to see battle auras that modify AC, there seems to be this really wacky running notion that a character can realistically lay down all of these auras for massive accuracy differentials, when doing so would cost you 8 actions and 4 spell slots for a relative +2 to your team's Strikes and AC (assuming everything happens 10 feet from you and the enemy fails both their Will saves for bane and malediction).
I don't believe anyone has made any such "wacky" claims. In general, I agree with you on this point, which is why I recommended casting only two of the four spells in a given encounter, depending on whether you wanted to focus on offense or defense.
...this isn't actually all that amazing when factoring in the costs, especially when as Squark mentioned, a Bard can spend a single action and zero daily resources to output power...
I mean, that's great if you happen to have a bard in the party.
It's notably powerful* because it's a new method for clerics to stack the numbers. As rare as stacking is in Pathfinder, it's usually going to be notable.
In any case, it's a great option because it remains useful if you have just a cleric or a bard and a cleric. The fact that they work together rather than stepping on each other's toes is a perk, not a condemnation that one is awesome and the other worthless.
Those spells are fine, for a rank 1 spell they are actually above average.
If I would rank that category of spells between themselves would be Bless > Malediction > Benediction > Bane.
Yes, for rank 1 spells they are fine.
But I disagree with your ranking. Malediction and Bane are rather bad due to the small area and save. You should always choose Bless and Benediction over them and you should actually never get to the point where you'll need to cast one of them.Between Bless and Benediction it depends on the enemy. If the enemies are physical attackers then Benediction will beat Bless most of the time. If the enemies are using save-based attacks then Bless gets higher value. But overall Benediction should be better.
The ability to force new saves as you expand the area doesn't make them all bad. In any case, I would recommend bless + malediction or bane + benediction over benediction + bless, depending on whether you're going offense or defense.
That said, benediction + bless is still a great combo if you want surefire bonuses without any room for failure.
Those spells are fine, for a rank 1 spell they are actually above average.
If I would rank that category of spells between themselves would be Bless > Malediction > Benediction > Bane.
Yes, for rank 1 spells they are fine.
But I disagree with your ranking. Malediction and Bane are rather bad due to the small area and save. You should always choose Bless and Benediction over them and you should actually never get to the point where you'll need to cast one of them.Between Bless and Benediction it depends on the enemy. If the enemies are physical attackers then Benediction will beat Bless most of the time. If the enemies are using save-based attacks then Bless gets higher value. But overall Benediction should be better.
I value offense over defense more overall, I prefer to end the battles earlier than to survive longer.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I value offense over defense more overall, I prefer to end the battles earlier than to survive longer.
There's no higher value in offense than defense. Especially in such small numbers, having a fight 10% shorter or longer should not impact our judgment.
Bless only affect martials (casters don't really use spell attack roll spells) while Benediction protects everyone. So if the enemies are physical attackers, it's the better choice. If the enemies are using save-based attacks, it's obviousy more of a wash. But from my experience, save-based attack are much more rare than physical ones, especially at low level.In any case, I would recommend bless + malediction or bane + benediction over benediction + bless, depending on whether you're going offense or defense.
Benediction + Bless is the efficient choice as both Bane and Malediction are weaker. Going for Bless + Malediction or Bane + Benediction is just favoring big numbers over efficiency.
I don't believe anyone has made any such "wacky" claims. In general, I agree with you on this point, which is why I recommended casting only two of the four spells in a given encounter, depending on whether you wanted to focus on offense or defense.
Please point to where I said anyone "claimed" anything. I am simply pointing to the premise of this thread, which is about stacking these aura spells together, and drawing from conversations around the Battle Harbinger, where defenders of the class archetype similarly waxed lyrical about how a Battle Harbinger could mod everyone's stats without factoring in the action cost. I would say that even four actions in an encounter, where you'll often have just nine actions to play with, is already a pretty steep cost, so while your remaining Strikes will be more accurate, you'll be making far fewer of them, and this is without factoring in the actions needed for you and your allies to get into position so that they get to benefit from the +1s, and enemies get affected by the -1s (and don't just Step or Stride out of their radius).
I mean, that's great if you happen to have a bard in the party.
It's notably powerful* because it's a new method for clerics to stack the numbers. As rare as stacking is in Pathfinder, it's usually going to be notable.
In any case, it's a great option because it remains useful if you have just a cleric or a bard and a cleric. The fact that they work together rather than stepping on each other's toes is a perk, not a condemnation that one is awesome and the other worthless.
None of these benefits are new, though. Heroism is a divine and occult spell that grants a status bonus to all non-flat checks, frightened is a condition both occult and divine casters can apply that imposes a status penalty to attack rolls and AC, protection is a divine and occult spell that grants a +1 status bonus to AC and saves (and can even be made into an aura, too!), and forbidding ward is a divine and occult cantrip that grants a status bonus to AC and saving throws. It's not just that Clerics can already output status bonuses and penalties to all of these stats and Bards can do it all even better, your Cleric can do all of this in higher amounts than these spells, too (and so can the Bard!).
The ability to force new saves as you expand the area doesn't make them all bad. In any case, I would recommend bless + malediction or bane + benediction over benediction + bless, depending on whether you're going offense or defense.
That said, benediction + bless is still a great combo if you want surefire bonuses without any room for failure.
If we're talking about expanding the area of multiple spells, that's five, six of your actions dedicated to just these auras. You'd effectively be spending the majority of your actions in the encounter laying down +1/-1 auras and making sure they affect more than one person. Perhaps at low level, this could be okay, but the moment you start having higher-rank slots to spare, it'd be much more effective for your divine buffer to use heroism spells from cheap slots or items when possible, and using spells like fear to debuff enemies (and as an added bonus, you still get to apply that -1 penalty on a successful save). Spending all of these actions casting and Sustaining auras also incidentally makes you worse at making use of them, because you not only get fewer actions to leverage the benefits of your increased accuracy (if you're using bless+malediction), you'd also need to move into position to apply them to your allies and enemies, and so would your allies under many circumstances, making these spells exceptionally costly to benefit from. This is why I think these spells ought to increase their bonuses with rank-ups and have a smaller starting action cost and aura radius, because they very quickly become obsolete in the face of other common spell options on the same spell lists.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
None of these benefits are new, though. Heroism is a divine and occult spell that grants a status bonus to all non-flat checks, frightened is a condition both occult and divine casters can apply that imposes a status penalty to attack rolls and AC, protection is a divine and occult spell that grants a +1 status bonus to AC and saves (and can even be made into an aura, too!), and forbidding ward is a divine and occult cantrip that grants a status bonus to AC and saving throws.
It IS new in that you can do it from level 1, rather than waiting for level 5 for other buffs to come online.
It also hits the whole party unless everyone is super spread out (and Paizo is notorious for its small encounter areas). Even if you gotta' spend an extra action or two getting there, that's awesome!
Sure there are more powerful options (of which I'm not convinced the bard is one), but they are generally single target, or much higher level.
I'm not saying this combo is the end all be all, far from it; but it IS absolutely something new that divine casters couldn't do as easily before.
More options are a good thing; what exactly are you hoping to accomplish by coming here and insisting (right or wrong) that another class does it better?
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's not worse; it's different. Bards swing wider, divine casters swing deeper (particularly at low levels). What's more, some of those spells effectively stack with bardic abilities, making for even more of a force multiplier.
A cleric who has a bard in the party with courageous anthem can just cast malediction in the opening round before watching the martials in the party just roll over the enemy.
If the bard casts dirge of doom, then the cleric can cast bless.
Teamwork makes the dream work. :)
Exactly this.
What this *really* does is let Bard and Cleric both exist in the same party and let them both contribute as support casters. Big for PFS where another player can win initiative and steal your shtick and you are left doing things your character wasn't built for.
It IS new in that you can do it from level 1, rather than waiting for level 5 for other buffs to come online.
Fear, forbidding ward, and protection are all available at level 1.
It also hits the whole party unless everyone is super spread out (and Paizo is notorious for its small encounter areas). Even if you gotta' spend an extra action or two getting there, that's awesome!
A 15-foot emanation is tiny, especially for a backliner. If everyone's spending even just one action to get in range, that's five actions in a four-character party just to benefit from one aura, to say nothing of needing to move in range of an enemy for them to be affected by a subsequent harmful aura. That may be fine at low level, but at higher levels you're just asking for the dragon to breathe fire at you (which none of these auras protect against, either).
Sure there are more powerful options (of which I'm not convinced the bard is one), but they are generally single target, or much higher level.
Again, the Bard's composition cantrips are neither high-level nor single-target, so this is quite simply not true. The point being made is that, contrary to your claim, these options are neither new nor amazingly powerful, and the combo you're advocating is incredibly costly on a number of levels for what it could potentially offer ("potentially" being the operative word here, as you're assuming everything goes the way you intended).
I'm not saying this combo is the end all be all, far from it; but it IS absolutely something new that divine casters couldn't do as easily before.
Again, if I spent my first turn casting protection and my second turn casting fear, both of which are common, 1st-rank divine spells, I would have applied those same status bonuses and penalties and then some, and so for the same cost in actions and spell ranks. This combo is, by the way, much easier to pull off than casting two auras and then trying desperately to huddle both your allies and your enemies into the same tiny zone.
More options are a good thing; what exactly are you hoping to accomplish by coming here and insisting (right or wrong) that another class does it better?
I absolutely agree that more options are a good thing, and it would be even better if those options were on par with others. It is for this reason that I supplemented my criticisms of those spells with suggestions for how they could be improved. A lot of this actually follows what we've been talking about: these spells wouldn't be straight-up more powerful at lower levels, and you'd have to spend the same number of actions as before to get comparable aura benefits, but they'd be far quicker to apply and thus easier to insert into a turn. They'd also scale in a manner comparable to other buff and debuff spells too, so that they'd be competitive with spells of similar ranks.
I'd therefore say it's pretty clear that I'm trying to be constructive in my criticism here, and trying to move discussion forward. By contrast, not only have you visibly not bothered to read or acknowledge the constructive bits of my post, you've expended considerable amounts of text and energy trying to dismiss critics of these spells, of which there are many and who have put forth arguments very similar to mine. This begs the question: what are you trying to accomplish here with your behavior? Was the expectation to just bring up an obvious combination of stat modifiers and have others fawn over this discovery?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
One of the things I like about bane (and probably this malediction too) is they can lead to more dynamic encounters if they encourage movement on both sides of an encounter based upon saves. Like standing around after you’ve failed a save that reduces your AC is a pretty bad idea, especially if a similar sized aura is granting a +1 to attack.
Honestly, I think the bard composition auras are too big. It would be a very unpopular errata to make, but 20ft would have been plenty as a starting place.
Bards have better proficiencies, effects, and spell lists.Outdated opinion. Divine list is the best list post-remaster and cleric is the strongest class
Divine list got the most buffs to it, and Cleric is a solid class, even moreso after the Remaster, but neither of these statements equate to them being the best list or strongest class.
I liked the free runes that I'm earning over time. Since I'm going to run two characters at the same time, and my group needs a tank, I'm thinking about changing my warpriest to this new cleric and a champion of greatness, for a build that I saw on Reddit.
I value offense over defense more overall, I prefer to end the battles earlier than to survive longer.You are delightfully hilarious, keep it up!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
*Harmonize one composition cantrip, use lingering composition on another)Harmonize and Lingering Composition don't mesh well.
But as I said: Bless + Dirge of Doom and you swing the numbers by 2 in a single round. So the Cleric is still not at Bard level of buffing (which I consider normal, buffing is the Bard shtick, healing the Cleric one). I also don't understand why there's so much praise for Benediction and Malediction. Overall, they don't add much to Bane and Bless, not enough to change the Cleric's role.
I've also never understood the praise around the Cleric. But that's certainly a discussion for somewhere else.
The cleric's role was changed when they made spirit damage hit everything. They have become more of a blaster at higher levels with powerful healing and better feats.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
It IS new in that you can do it from level 1, rather than waiting for level 5 for other buffs to come online.Fear, forbidding ward, and protection are all available at level 1.
So what? All of those pair well with one or more of these cleric spells.
It also hits the whole party unless everyone is super spread out (and Paizo is notorious for its small encounter areas). Even if you gotta' spend an extra action or two getting there, that's awesome!A 15-foot emanation is tiny, especially for a backliner. If everyone's spending even just one action to get in range, that's five actions in a four-character party just to benefit from one aura, to say nothing of needing to move in range of an enemy for them to be affected by a subsequent harmful aura. That may be fine at low level, but at higher levels you're just asking for the dragon to breathe fire at you (which none of these auras protect against, either).
Depends on the encounter. Big area effects are a bit more common at higher levels, true, but they're still not going to appear in every encounter.
You and I play very different games I suppose. In 30 years of roleplaying, I've only ever had one campaign with constant big open spaces in which a 15-foot radius would routinely feel tiny.
Sure there are more powerful options (of which I'm not convinced the bard is one), but they are generally single target, or much higher level.Again, the Bard's composition cantrips are neither high-level nor single-target, so this is quite simply not true. The point being made is that, contrary to your claim, these options are neither new nor amazingly powerful, and the combo you're advocating is incredibly costly on a number of levels for what it could potentially offer ("potentially" being the operative word here, as you're assuming everything goes the way you intended).
They ARE new for THE CLERIC. Even if they aren't as efficient as bardic abilities, the fact is that they didn't exist as options for the cleric before. Now they do. That's a plus despite what you might say or think.
I'm not saying this combo is the end all be all, far from it; but it IS absolutely something new that divine casters couldn't do as easily before.Again, if I spent my first turn casting protection and my second turn casting fear, both of which are common, 1st-rank divine spells, I would have applied those same status bonuses and penalties and then some, and so for the same cost in actions and spell ranks. This combo is, by the way, much easier to pull off than casting two auras and then trying desperately to huddle both your allies and your enemies into the same tiny zone.
It is a good combo, but it only impacts one or two targets. The combo I propose can potentially effect the whole party. At worst, it's extra cost for extra gain. It's not a worse option. It's simply an alternative one.
Alternative options are good, even if you think other classes are more efficient.
More options are a good thing; what exactly are you hoping to accomplish by coming here and insisting (right or wrong) that another class does it better?I absolutely agree that more options are a good thing, and it would be even better if those options were on par with others. It is for this reason that I supplemented my criticisms of those spells with suggestions for how they could be improved. A lot of this actually follows what we've been talking about: these spells wouldn't be straight-up more powerful at lower levels, and you'd have to spend the same number of actions as before to get comparable aura benefits, but they'd be far quicker to apply and thus easier to insert into a turn. They'd also scale in a manner comparable to other buff and debuff spells too, so that they'd be competitive with spells of similar ranks.
If all options for all classes were on par with each other, this would be a VERY boring game.
Your voicing criticism of the combo is fine; I just disagree with some of it, and I have difficulty understanding your chosen stance on other bits of it.
I'd therefore say it's pretty clear that I'm trying to be constructive in my criticism here, and trying to move discussion forward. By contrast, not only have you visibly not bothered to read or acknowledge the constructive bits of my post, you've expended considerable amounts of text and energy trying to dismiss critics of these spells, of which there are many and who have put forth arguments very similar to mine. This begs the question: what are you trying to accomplish here with your behavior? Was the expectation to just bring up an obvious combination of stat modifiers and have others fawn over this discovery?
I was hoping people might incorporate them into their own combos or characters and share some of their own ideas.
It seems to be working.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I want to be my class's Maledictorian
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hoping against hope that it can be fixed by errata into a non trap archetype.
If you're referring to the Battle Harbinger, then I don't think it's as bad as people seem to think. It is certainly usable as written. That said, I do agree that other classes perform better in similar roles and I too hope to see it get a few boosts.
So what? All of those pair well with one or more of these cleric spells.
So: all of these effects existed at level 1 already on both divine and occult casters, contrary to your claim. Your key selling point is based on a lie. You did not have to sit and wait for this expansion to deploy these buffs and debuffs with your divine caster, and a player will not need this expansion to buff their team's Strikes and AC or debuff the enemy's Strikes and AC with their divine caster.
Depends on the encounter. Big area effects are a bit more common at higher levels, true, but they're still not going to appear in every encounter.
You and I play very different games I suppose. In 30 years of roleplaying, I've only ever had one campaign with constant big open spaces in which a 15-foot radius would routinely feel tiny.
If your team has spent their every encounter sitting within fireball radius of the Cloistered Cleric, patiently waiting for the enemy to come, and this has never once worked against you, then my congratulations for having an extremely accommodating GM. That, or you're just making stuff up for the sake of the argument. Either or.
They ARE new for THE CLERIC. Even if they aren't as efficient as bardic abilities, the fact is that they didn't exist as options for the cleric before. Now they do. That's a plus despite what you might say or think.
They are NOT new for THE CLERIC. THE CLERIC can already lay down all of these bonuses and penalties, including in AoE form. It bears repeating that all of the effects you claimed did not exist on the Cleric are all in Player Core 1. If this were something you were so genuinely enthusiastic about concerning a character you were actually playing, you would have found these effects on your spell list and prepared them already.
It is a good combo, but it only impacts one or two targets. The combo I propose can potentially effect the whole party. At worst, it's extra cost for extra gain. It's not a worse option. It's simply an alternative one.
"Potentially" reeks of white-room theorycrafting. In practice, your plan requires more actions and riskier positioning than you're willing to admit, and at worst, you're spending actions for less effect, as bane and malediction are less likely to affect enemies than fear, and the ally you really want to benefit from your Strike or AC buff may find themselves separated from you.
The problem, as also mentioned, is that your proposed combo falls off, whereas mine only gets better: your proposal to have everyone huddle into one big pile renders the party extremely vulnerable to the increasing amount of AoE enemies can access, whereas the spells I'm proposing actually scale. This is part of the criticism I'm making: in a game where spells generally become better as they heighten, including buff and debuff spells, all of these spells are odd ducks for not doing any such thing. If you only play at extremely low levels, then that may not affect you as much, but at higher levels, these spells become obsolete. It's not that I'm railing against alternative options here: I would prefer it if these alternative options were genuinely valid alternatives, as that is one of Pathfinder's design principles.
If all options for all classes were on par with each other, this would be a VERY boring game.
That's not what's being asked, though, is it? I'm asking for these options to be made competitive with other options for the same class. I'm also not asking for these spells to be made identical to one another, and again, the suggestions I made for these aura spells would have them function very differently from the alternatives I brought up. Dismissing notable imbalances between competing options under the pretense that a balanced game would be a bad thing (which, I'm sorry to say, is going to set you up for disappointment when playing Pathfinder) comes across as a bit of a cop-out argument.
Your voicing criticism of the combo is fine; I just disagree with some of it, and I have difficulty understanding your chosen stance on other bits of it.
And that's fine, you don't have to understand. The validity of my and others' opinions does not hinge on your understanding, much less your approval, which makes your attempts to undermine and dismiss those opinions, not merely disagree, ultimately pointless.
I was hoping people might incorporate them into their own combos or characters and share some of their own ideas.
It seems to be working.
If by "working", you mean "has generated lots of theorycrafting from one (1) person, zero practical experience, and criticism of the spells from many more people, despite the protestations of said theorycrafter," then yes, it seems to be working. If we're being honest, though, very little of your contributions on your own thread have been to that effect, and had you spent less time desperately trying to shout down the critics, then you could've perhaps done a better job of presenting those spells in a better light.
At the end of the day, and once again, this isn't about yucking your or anyone else's yum. You are allowed to enjoy these spells just as I am allowed to find them lackluster. Important to note, however: my opinion of these spells does not hinge on yours or anyone else's agreement, nor is it diminished by anyone else's disagreement, which is why my initial comment on this thread was directed at no-one. Please understand that your opinion is equally valid, which means you do not need to go out of your way to dismiss my opinion, nor Darksol's, nor SuperBidi's or anyone else's. Our independent opinion does not diminish yours, and appreciation of these spells, or lack thereof, is not a zero-sum game.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
....all of these effects existed at level 1 already on both divine and occult casters, contrary to your claim.
What other low-level, divine, area- or -multi-target AC buff/debuffs might you be referring to?
Please restate my claim. I want to make sure we're on the same page.
I'm asking for these options to be made competitive with other options for the same class.
This point confuses me. They literally mirror existing spells. How are they not therefore not competitive with existing options?
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
So what? All of those pair well with one or more of these cleric spells.So: all of these effects existed at level 1 already on both divine and occult casters, contrary to your claim. Your key selling point is based on a lie. You did not have to sit and wait for this expansion to deploy these buffs and debuffs with your divine caster, and a player will not need this expansion to buff their team's Strikes and AC or debuff the enemy's Strikes and AC with their divine caster.
I think you are sliding into hyperbole. For example, Benediction looks significantly more useful than Forbidding Ward or Protection (spells I often prepared, and rarely cast because of their limitations).
Please restate my claim. I want to make sure we're on the same page.
Gladly. Here is the claim you made, in this comment:
It's notably powerful* because it's a new method for clerics to stack the numbers. As rare as stacking is in Pathfinder, it's usually going to be notable.
Both of these claims are false: Clerics already have the means to "stack the numbers" via status bonuses and penalties to AC, including at low level, and stacking is not rare in Pathfinder, especially not when it comes to AC, where you will often by attempting to apply both circumstance and status penalties to your opponents'AC to soften them up.
What other low-level, divine, area- or -multi-target AC buff/debuffs might you be referring to?
Just to spell it out once more, with links this time:
So, to recap: if you wanted to fiddle with status modifiers to AC, the divine list already had you covered from the start of the remaster. If you wanted to fiddle with status modifiers to AC and still stay at low level, the divine list still already had you covered from the start of the remaster. If your selling point for these new aura spells is that that you are running adventures exclusively at levels 1-4 where the entire team (and the enemies) all desperately need to huddle together at once, then sure, benediction and malediction will have you covered, but as it stands, these spells are overly costly for what they aim to achieve, and are very quickly rendered obsolete by existing options at their total niche of team-wide buffing and debuffing.
This point confuses me. They literally mirror existing spells. How are they not therefore not competitive with existing options?
It is this point that confuses me, as I fail to see how different spells having the aura trait is enough to warrant making them equal in power, let alone competitive with other spells. As pointed out already, bane and bless run into similar issues as these spells, again because the divine and occult lists are quite good at buffing and debuffing already. This is part of the reason why the Battle Harbinger received criticism, for instance, because a font of bane and bless is a lot less strong and falls off significantly compared to a harm or heal font.
And to be clear: the conclusion to all this that I'm trying to draw is not that these spells should be cut for the game, or that no-one should pick them. Rather, the point is that these spells could have been implemented in ways that would have allowed them to remain competitive at higher levels, such as by having their status modifier increase at higher ranks. This specific change would not affect their strength at low levels, I'm sure you'll agree, and the other suggestion I made of reducing both their action cost by one and their base radius to 5 would allow them to work much like they do now, only with a bit more flexibility. Again, not about making them identical to other spells as you claimed, but in fact making them work differently enough from existing options that they offer a different range of reasons to be picked.
I think you are sliding into hyperbole. For example, Benediction looks significantly more useful than Forbidding Ward or Protection (spells I often prepared, and rarely cast because of their limitations).
I'm not so sure. Forbidding ward has the benefit of being something you can lay down as needed from a distance, a significant benefit for a Cloistered Cleric, divine Sorcerer, divine Witch, or even an Oracle, none of whom very much want to be on the front line (it doesn't seem like anyone has considered this when gauging these auras, either). It's also, quite simply, an infinitely renewable cantrip, even one you can lay down multiple times in an encounter as needed, and so for a higher bonus at mid levels than benediction (plus it affects saves!). Protection may have a range of touch, but is itself something you can apply to a frontliner before they charge into battle, as opposed to an aura that would require you to wade into the front line yourself.
Of course, if you're a Warpriest or a Battle Harbinger, the latter of whom these spells were ostensibly made for, then you'll be wanting to wade into the front line anyway and could survive using these spells... if you can stomach the significant action cost, which will prevent you from moving into range and Striking on the same turn that you cast this spell. Even for these classes, past a certain level you'd be better off loading up on cheap scrolls of heroism and prebuffing when possible. For anyone else, your divine caster is generally going to want to avoid getting within melee range of the enemy if they can avoid it, and when it comes to occult casters, you have your 6 HP/level cloth armor Psychic, and the Bard who can do all of this with single-action cantrips from the back line already. If a Champion could get an easy hold of all these aura spells and cast them with fewer actions, they'd be absolutely rad, but that's not what we got.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I find bless and bane to be spells best cast before an encounter begins, like when you have run from an enemy previously and have a strong sense of where they are going to be, or there is a door that you know bad stuff is on the other side. Then you can even spend some rounds expanding them while the rest of the party does whatever it is they need to before opening the door. If it only lasts for 5 rounds, that is usually plenty of time. Using them in combat is usually best when there are circumstances where you want to wait a round or two before fully engaging the enemy anyway.
Even with a font of them, you probably don't want to just immediately cast one the first round of every combat, as the action cost of that vs the utility you get from it won't often work out in your favor, but having enough of them to throw down an aura before even opening a door you have a bad feeling about probably is worth it when you have 3 or 4 of them to cast every day/ you can later afford to use scrolls before entering every major dungeon room, and even spend an extra combat round re-gripping your weapon and expanding the aura before opening the door or pushing ahead.
Rather, the point is that these spells could have been implemented in ways that would have allowed them to remain competitive at higher levels, such as by having their status modifier increase at higher ranks. This specific change would not affect their strength at low levels, I'm sure you'll agree, and the other suggestion I made of reducing both their action cost by one and their base radius to 5 would allow them to work much like they do now, only with a bit more flexibility.
I would agree with such changes, provided that similar changes were applied equally to the fulle set: bane, benediction, bless, and malediction.
|
|
I think you are sliding into hyperbole. For example, Benediction looks significantly more useful than Forbidding Ward or Protection (spells I often prepared, and rarely cast because of their limitations).I'm not so sure. Forbidding ward has the benefit of being something you can lay down as needed from a distance, a significant benefit for a Cloistered Cleric, divine Sorcerer, divine Witch, or even an Oracle, none of whom very much want to be on the front line (it doesn't seem like anyone has considered this when gauging these auras, either). It's also, quite simply, an infinitely renewable cantrip, even one you can lay down multiple times in an encounter as needed, and so for a higher bonus at mid levels than benediction (plus it affects saves!). Protection may have a range of touch, but is itself something you can apply to a frontliner before they charge into battle, as opposed to an aura that would require you to wade into the front line yourself.
IME, the best use of Forbidding Ward is as light dissuasion. Once single target AC buffs are brought out, it encourages the enemies to target someone else. Being seen buffing the AC of the front line is the best way to encourage the enemy to rush the back line. So I prefer to pull it out in circumstances when the line is penetrated, to steer them towards someone slightly less squishy. Benediction being an aura doesn't have that issue.
(Now the setup I do like is with a Spinner of Fate Witch. You set up with Needle of Vengeance on the squishiest target, proccing an AC buff on either the next squishiest or an AC debuff on the enemy, and then Forbidding Ward on the next squishiest.)
I haven't seen a meaningful difference as a caster between being 30' away and 15' away. If I am going to focus on buffing AC (and presumably healing) I'll probably run with Sanctuary as an option.
Divine list got the most buffs to it, and Cleric is a solid class, even moreso after the Remaster, but neither of these statements equate to them being the best list or strongest class.Bards have better proficiencies, effects, and spell lists.Outdated opinion. Divine list is the best list post-remaster and cleric is the strongest class
There is nothing the divine list cannot do anymore
I value offense over defense more overall, I prefer to end the battles earlier than to survive longer.You are delightfully hilarious, keep it up!
I've never said that. So either you've done something wrong with your quote or you're trying to say something I haven't understood and I'm not sure I endorse.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Maestro Bards can do this as well*, with their 60 ft. auras, and without a saving throw. You just don't see them do it because the action cost to get it online is excessive unless you just want to be a stationary buff bot. Which, given the smaller size of the auras, is all our cleric is doing as well.
*Harmonize one composition cantrip, use lingering composition on another)
One of my Ruby Phoenix players just got Symphony of the Muses at level 20. He doesn't get to do that for very long, but "I can just cast however many songs I want without Harmonize" is something he's really enjoying.
Dirge of Doom, Courageous Anthem, and something like Overwhelming Presence is a really good turn.
I would agree with such changes, provided that similar changes were applied equally to the fulle set: bane, benediction, bless, and malediction.
Completely agreed! I think the model could be applied to all of these aura spells to their benefit, which I think would make playing with these auras more flexible: you could spend a single action for a quick +1 to yourself or a -1 to one or more enemies in extremely close proximity, and then depending on your priorities could either spend your next couple of actions moving into position and Striking, or start to Sustain your aura to increase it back to its vanilla range (or even cast another aura). It wouldn't be straight-up more powerful than the spells' current versions, but would offer more flexibility in how to spend your actions in a way that befits gishier builds. On a class archetype like the Battle Harbinger, you could play with their action compression so that they'd have an even easier time laying down these auras and doing their thing of fighting on the front line, and with a +3/-3 on their auras from the get-go at high level, their font would be as formidable as that of a Cloistered Cleric or Warpriest, though also fundamentally different.
IME, the best use of Forbidding Ward is as light dissuasion. Once single target AC buffs are brought out, it encourages the enemies to target someone else. Being seen buffing the AC of the front line is the best way to encourage the enemy to rush the back line. So I prefer to pull it out in circumstances when the line is penetrated, to steer them towards someone slightly less squishy. Benediction being an aura doesn't have that issue.
In my own experience, the back line in my party tries to stay as far away from the front line as their ranges allow, i.e. about 30 feet or so usually or more. Casting an aura from the back line would therefore only benefit the back line, and if the squishier party members were close enough to be on the front line and the enemy can observe this, then I would have the enemy target those party members instead unless dissuaded by the front line, e.g. the Champion's reaction or the like.
In general, the big difference between these different kinds of spells is that auras require commitment in positioning, and Sustain actions to lessen this burden of commitment, whereas buffs like forbidding ward or protection are fire-and-forget. Whereas huddling together inside an aura makes it easier for an enemy to target-switch, single-target buffs from a distance can make that very difficult with good positioning and the right party composition: if you cast forbidding ward on your Fighter, for instance, that enemy certainly could try moving past them to try to get in range of you, but they'd also eat a Reactive Strike to the face. The same can go for a Barbarian with No Escape, a tank Kineticist with the right auras (e.g. Ravel of Thorns or Winter Sleet), and soon a Guardian with the right feat. The Champion is the one big exception to this, because they want their allies to be within 15 feet of them, which is why these auras would be so perfect on them if they could access divine spell slots a little more easily (that, or they just had more limited versions of these auras as focus spells, just like their touch focus spells).
There is nothing the divine list cannot do anymoreDivine list got the most buffs to it, and Cleric is a solid class, even moreso after the Remaster, but neither of these statements equate to them being the best list or strongest class.Bards have better proficiencies, effects, and spell lists.Outdated opinion. Divine list is the best list post-remaster and cleric is the strongest class
But that doesn't make it the best list. At most it makes it the most flexible, but that doesn't make it the best.
In my experience the back line is almost always within 30 feet of the front line (and frequentlywithin 10-15 feet). That way, all their allies and many of their enemies are within range of their spells and abilities. It helps to maximize your available options since there are far more short range spells and abilities than long ones.
There is a key difference between 30 feet and 10-15 feet, and the closer you put yourself to the front line, the more likely you become the front line, especially if enemies have ranged attacks or AoE. If you have party members who are capable of protecting you adequately, like a Champion, then this is mitigated, but still not completely eliminated, and when many divine casters have no armor proficiency and often just 6 HP per level, that's a fairly big risk that a mere +1 to AC isn't going to fully mitigate.
If your clerics are more than 30 feet behind the front line, how are they healing the front line? If your combat casters are more than 30 feet away from the enemy, do they not lose out on more than half their offensive options?
How is the martial front line not collapsing without the support* of the back line?
So basically, we value these spells differently because tactically we play the game differently.
Seems that way.