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Disclaimer: I'm not looking for a loophole, I just want to know if there's a rule I'm missing and if yes, where to find it.
Martial multiclass dedications give you training in their class DC. But what if you already have a class DC?
Is there an explicit rule somewhere that tells you to use the archetype's class DC for its abilities? The only rule on class DC I could find says
A class DC sets the difficulty for certain abilities granted by your character's class.
But would a fighter with the monk archetype actually count monk as "their character's class"? Or could he just use his fighter class DC for Stunning Blows? The feat just says the target rolls a save against "your class DC". It doesn't say "monk class DC".
I strongly assume the RAI is "use monk DC for abilities granted by the monk archetype" but other than the vague-ish definition I quoted earlier, I fail to find any real RAW on the matter.
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Pre-Remaster a few feats had a specific class's DC listed (so few I couldn't find them if asked, though I recall running into it when crafting some MCD builds years ago...meaning I could be mistaken too!). After Remaster it's clear there's no distinction made of separate Class DCs. Class DC is one thing. Use your highest like a caster uses their highest Spell DC and gets to use them across all spells. The exception is Kineticist which explicitly calls it Kineticist Class DC.
Some classes have both, but most don't so need to pick up the other when they take an MCD that uses the other. Otherwise some feats would be useless to them. I'd argue that since the DC seldom progresses (Kineticist again being the exception w/ an IMO costly, but necessary feat since that drives all their offense). So gaining a Class DC or Spell DC when you already have one is redundant, made to prop up some non-functional PCs to functional in their MCD's abilities.
This leads to some odd situations, like a Commander becoming extraordinary w/ Snares while a Wizard remains only Trained. Not that it's imbalanced, since the Wizard's gains so much with non-Arcane scrolls using their Spell DC (via Trick Magic Item if necessary).
Pre-Remaster a few feats had a specific class's DC listed (so few I couldn't find them if asked, though I recall running into it when crafting some MCD builds years ago...meaning I could be mistaken too!). After Remaster it's clear there's no distinction made of separate Class DCs. Class DC is one thing. Use your highest like a caster uses their highest Spell DC and gets to use them across all spells. The exception is Kineticist which explicitly calls it Kineticist Class DC.
Some classes have both, but most don't so need to pick up the other when they take an MCD that uses the other. Otherwise some feats would be useless to them. I'd argue that since the DC seldom progresses (Kineticist again being the exception w/ an IMO costly, but necessary feat since that drives all their offense). So gaining a Class DC or Spell DC when you already have one is redundant, made to prop up some non-functional PCs to functional in their MCD's abilities.
This leads to some odd situations, like a Commander becoming extraordinary w/ Snares while a Wizard remains only Trained. Not that it's imbalanced, since the Wizard's gains so much with non-Arcane scrolls using their Spell DC (via Trick Magic Item if necessary).
Is this right?
Each class is trained in a specific DC for their class (Monks get Monk Class DC, Fighters get Fighter Class DC etc. Although the abilities do just call out your Class DC, but if a Fighter feat calls out class DC surely it would be Fighter Class DC?
It's half-right, in that if you're explicitly asked for your "Monk Class DC", first off you'll almost certainly have one from your path to that ability, but secondly, what ability does that?
If a Monk ability has you use your "Class DC" you can use your highest Class DC. In that sense there's no distinction simply because the ability's not distinguishing it. Other than Kineticist, I don't think there are any abilities in post-Remaster that ask for a specific class's Class DC (and I think it's obvious why).
And IIRC if you look at Paizo character sheets, there's a space for one Class DC, not multiple.
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The multiclass Dedications all specify that you are Trained in the class Class DC, so it seems rather intended to use this one and not your main class Class DC. Even if I agree it doesn't make much sense now that casters are using the same proficiency for their spell DC.
I don't buy the notion that all (as far as I see) non-spellcasting or hybrid dedications give you training in their class DC for you to completely ignore it.
Pre-Master, the Class DC training would have applied to caster classes, which didn't have a Class DC before. Now they all come with at least training in their own Class DC, which would make the training for the multiclass class DC redundant and makes it more likely that you have to use the multiclass class DC.
Then again, I guess it still applies to the Psychic, Magus and Summoner, so it could be listed to make sure you have class DC at all, no matter what version of the rules you use and/or for future proofing in case they ever print a class without a class DC.
They use the same proficiency, but wizard spell DC and sorcerer spell DC still exist and are different. Because of different stats.
The same could be true for a barbarian using the class DC of the rogue archetype, though. It could use the same proficiency but different numbers.
Come to think of it, what attribute would the class DC of a multiclass use if the class has a flexible key attribute? Does the class DC of the monk archetype use strenght or dexterity?
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Anyway, I'm still not convinced either way. Might have to talk to my group to see how we want to handle this going forward.
This isn't about my players at all. Not even about a specific build I'm planning or something. It was just something that randomly came to mind an that the rules don't really seem to answer.
The whole thing is terribly inconsistent if you look at it more closely. Kineticist explicitely says impulses use your Kineticist class DC. Alchemist's powerful alchemy only says class DC.
Rangers start trained in "ranger class DC", become expert in "ranger DC" at level 9, before going back to "ranger class DC" when it hits master at level 17. (admittedly this is most likely a typo)
The Inventor's Explode ability doesn't list a DC at all, just telling you the targets make a basic reflex save, but not against what.
And yeah, then there's the new trend of having non-multiclass archetypes using your class or spell DC. They also don't really say "use your highest class DC", so what would I do if I have multiple class DCs because I also happened take rogue dedication or something? Which one is "my" class DC? The one from my main class or that of the rogue archetype?
I honestly don't know what to make of this. It seems like the intend is to have you use the archetype's class DC, but the rules don't really tell you to - and neither do they tell you to use the DC of your main class.
Commanders and Kineticists may have a lot of surprisingly good ways of using archetype-acquired feats.
Kineticist is already a better firework technician than an inventor or alchemist can ever by. Does it really matter whether he can also be a better barbarian?
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When you get any Class DC, that's a Class DC. Unless informed otherwise, it should be appropriate to plug in whenever asked for a Class DC. One could extrapolate that one must use the distinct Class DC for MCD's (et al), but there's no evidence supporting that. The instance we have w/ Kineticist shows us that Paizo's does call out when a Class DC has to be a specific one. A general rule could have done the same thing if they wanted to avoid redundancy, much like they did w/ caster MCDs. They didn't.
So yeah, arguments can be made, but it's just conjecture on what would be a major miss by Paizo to have left unsaid. The default is that your PC has a Class DC and that's what you use unless told otherwise, and yes, we have an instance where it will tell you otherwise.
And IIRC if you look at Paizo character sheets, there's a space for one Class DC, not multiple.
The original character sheet only had a space for one Spell DC, but you'd have different proficiency levels in different traditions based on the class you got them from. So I don't think the lack of space for additional ones means anything except it's not the common case so its not necessary on an already pretty busy paper sheet.
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I go for the one class DC myself. Why overcomplicate things?
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I go for the one class DC myself. Why overcomplicate things?Because the RAW says so ?
Where?
When you get any Class DC, that's a Class DC.In the books I read it's "Trained in fighter class DC", not "Trained in class DC".
Unless informed otherwise, it should be appropriate to plug in whenever asked for a Class DC. One could extrapolate that one must use the distinct Class DC for MCD's (et al), but there's no evidence supporting that. ...
So yeah, arguments can be made, but it's just conjecture on what would be a major miss by Paizo to have left unsaid.Oh, you could call this 'extrapolation' and say 'there's no evidence', but all class DCs are always specific class DCs, not generic ones. And all abilities either come from a specific class, or when they haven't the rules take this into account.
The default is that your PC has a Class DC and that's what you use unless told otherwiseNo. The default is you have <specific> class DC and you use this <specific> class' abilities. More involved default is you have <specific> class DC and <another specific> class DC and you can use <specific> and <another specific> class abilities.
Whoosh.
For "When you get any* Class DC, that's a Class DC."*Insert whatever class in question.
Ex. That Fighter Class DC is a Class DC.
Nowhere (that I know of) on the ability side does one ask for "Fighter Class DC" or anything similar except for Kineticist MCD. Meaning the abilities aren't making any distinction even if it feels mightily that they should (which I intuitively agree with, but I disagree when I analyze balance and Paizo's methodology).
You'd need a citation to say that "Class DC" under an ability only refers to the class one gained that ability from. It's not implied. Also, with no way to increase one's MCD Class DC all those DC-based abilities would become near worthless as they lag behind. They already took more investment via MCD.