Brimoraks do not have a weakness to the extra damage from the holy weapon, which is Spirit. So the base damage will be both Holy and Cold Iron.
Meaning the enemy takes 5 extra damage, not 10 extra damage, yes?
5 yes, but as an 'instance of damage' is never defined, it's hard to say that it would have been 10 pre-remaster.
Both pre and post remaster: "If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value."
Both pre and post remaster: "If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value."https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42bxf?Two-Small-Flaws-in-the-Weakness-S ystem#24
Unless you know of a more recent explanation, I'm going with this one that clearly states both cold iron and good weaknesses would be triggered (but not cold iron and slashing in that example).
That's a quote from the playtest, so we don't have a comment on the actual released rules. As I no longer have access to the PF2 playtest pdf's, I don't even know if the wording Mark was commenting on is the same. So for multiple reasons, I'm not seeing it as a ruling, though if you're the DM you can run it that way.
EDIT: There is a current thread called The-Damage-Rules, that is debating issues of vagueness around the damage rule, including instances of damage that started yesterday and it's clear that things like instances of damage weren't solved by that playtest quote.
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Personally, I use same attack to be instance of damage, but I do concur that it is not defined.
There's a difference: good was a real damage type. Holy is not a damage type, it's a trait. So holy works mostly like silver or cold iron, while good had its own numbers and calculation 'thread'.That's my point
So for the new Brimorak being struck by a Holy sword
You take
(Cold Iron) Slashing damage
and
(Holy) Spirit damage.
If these are one instance of damage then you only take the higher weakness. If they are two instances you take both.
The special clause in the weakness rules: If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value. This usually only happens when a creature is weak to both a type of damage and a material or trait, such as a cold iron axe cutting a monster that has weakness to cold iron and slashing.
Spirit Damage and Slashing Damage are distinct damage types. The Brimork is weak to Cold Iron and to Holy.
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Yeah it can get messy if each additional damage is it's own instance of damage: like a Flaming [1d6 fire] Alchemical Crossbow (alchemist’s fire) [1d6 fire] with a Flaming Star (Greater) spellheart [1d6 fire] attached firing a Energized Cartridge [1d8 fire] by a goblin with Burn It! [1 fire, 1 fire, 1 fire]... Does it trigger fire weakness/resistance 7 times? If not, what makes them not instances of damage where they wouldn't be if they dealt different damage types?
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They probably should clarify what "instance of damage" means, I personally agree with Deriven where it's "the damage that results from a strike".
Yeah it can get messy if each additional damage is it's own instance of damage: like a Flaming [1d6 fire] Alchemical Crossbow (alchemist’s fire) [1d6 fire] with a Flaming Star (Greater) spellheart [1d6 fire] attached firing a Energized Cartridge [1d8 fire] by a goblin with Burn It! [1 fire, 1 fire, 1 fire]... Does it trigger fire weakness/resistance 7 times? If not, what makes them not instances of damage where they wouldn't be if they dealt different damage types?
You can't have an Energized Cartridge and a Flaming Star on a weapon, since one's a talisman and the other a Spellheart. Burn It! would also only ever apply once, since it adds it's bonus to spells and alchemical items, so only the crossbow's damage would benefit.
I do agree that damage is something the rules are very wonky about. FWIW, the way I've ran it since day 1 isn't really through "instances" but damage types (the ones described in Step 2).
So lets say your goblin used this combo (we'll use the Energised cartridge, not the spellheart), but also they had a bear animal companion and they'd used the support action. Your damage would be:
Energy (fire): 1d8 (alchemical crossbow, from Energised cartridge) + 1d6 (alchemist fire) + 1d6 (flaming rune) + 1 (status bonus from Burn it!)
Physical (Slashing): 1d8 (from the Bear support action)
If you were using the Spellheart, it'd be:
Energy (fire): 1d6 (alchemist fire) + 1d6 (spellheart) + 1d6 (flaming rune) + 1 (status bonus from Burn it!)
Physical (Slashing): 1d8 (from the Bear support action)
Physical (Piercing): 1d8 (from the alchemical crossbow)
Each of these types would be affected by their own immunities, resistances or weaknesses.
I'm pretty sure this isn't RAW at all, but it's worked for my groups without any real issues.
You can't have an Energized Cartridge and a Flaming Star on a weapon, since one's a talisman and the other a Spellheart. Burn It! would also only ever apply once, since it adds it's bonus to spells and alchemical items, so only the crossbow's damage would benefit.
I was thinking Energized Cartridge was ammo: you could replace it with an Alchemical Gauntlet (alchemist’s fire) and the Energy Mutagen. I don't see how you wouldn't add Burn It! to each if they are different instances of damage as they are different alchemical items [and why they themselves wouldn't be instances of damage]. It would only not add twice if the entire strike is one instance of damage.
Each of these types would be affected by their own immunities, resistances or weaknesses.
I'm pretty sure this isn't RAW at all, but it's worked for my groups without any real issues.
Yeah, you run into the clause "If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value" and "If you have more than one type of resistance that would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable resistance value, as described in weakness."
I could see a reading where everything in the strike is one instance of damage and one where everything is its own separate instance of damage. You're doing a sort of hybrid. It seems simple enough to run though so I don't think it's a bad way to run it.
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The best clue we have what "same instance of damage" means is the only example in the book;
If more than one weakness would apply to the
same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable
weakness value. This usually only happens when a creature
is weak to both a type of damage and a material or trait,
such as a cold iron axe cutting a monster that has weakness
to cold iron and slashing.
To me the bolded sentence implies a lot. Because there are so many different ways where an attack deals multiple types of damage that all qualify for a weakness. You can't really say that a weapon with an elemental damage rune is a really rare and unusual thing.
So them saying that this usually only happens for a type+trait or type+material combination leaves wide open the possibility that you do trigger multiple weaknesses, if it's something else than a type+trait or type+material combo that triggers the weaknesses.
I'll just echo/refine my stance from the other thread.
I'm with Deriven on this one, the system only really makes sense if a single hit / swing is considered to be an instance of damage, even when it inflicts multiple types. IMO the reason the material + type example is used is because it's 0 rune way that it can be encountered at Lvl 1 (on paper).
Additional damage into a strike IMO does NOT add a separate instance, otherwise that "only use the highest" rule really can only happen when you have the edge case weakness/resistances like the theoretical creature with both a phys and material weakness. I honestly don't think I've ever encountered a creature that fits that criteria once.
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The way the system so often invokes a "for the sake of weakness/resistance combine..." phrase for things like multi-attack Flurry abilities only really "plays nice" and makes sense if the 2 flurry hits were each considered single instances before being combined.
If the 2 hits were not single instances before being Flurried, then you require extra rules to figure out how tf you are supposed to "combine" them to know what parts are combined and what's allowed to still be separate instances. IMO, that single problem is a huuuuge lump of evidence that such a reading was never intended.
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AND, as mentioned, the "as many dips as additional dmg effects" interpretation means that PCs are massively at an advantage as soon as they learn that trick.
Players are the only ones that tend to modify their attacks and resistances just before or after initative is rolled, and even something simple like PC using 1 buff action to gain a matching elemental/abnormal resist to pair with a physical results in seriously high tanking potential.
Players can also stack additional damage effects like crazy, easily doing 3 sets of the same-element bonus damage with little setup. As the whole notion of "single highest weakness/resistance" is clearly a rule designed to restrain weakness procs from doing too much damage, I cannot think such easy abuse of weakness was intended.
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And every time I think on that "every additional damage buff is an instance" ruling, I get new unsolvable "questions" because it doesn't make sense in the system.
This time, I'm thinking about the Spellheart Pickled Demon Tongue that gives the wearer resistance to both acid and "attacks by demons".
Specific yet easy-match resistances like that demon one are a little strong, but overall fine if you get a single reduction from every discrete attack / hit.
But, they just do *not* make sense if every bit of split type damage is an instance; if so your resistance is now outright multiplied by the number of damage types present inside the foe's attacks, which is rather opposite in function to a system with a "single highest" cap rule. That kind of power is specifically set aside for rare things like resist all.
And demons have a lot of split damage like phys + evil(spirit) dmg attacks.