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The barathu's been a particularly fun ancestry to play in the Starfinder playtest, owing mainly to their fly Speed. Their ability to recombine their genetics and retrain ancestry feats super-quick has also been fantastic to play with too, and I very much enjoyed their feats altogether. I'll also note that a few players on the forums criticized the ancestry's need to Fly each turn, but in practice barathus can simply use Fly to move around at ground level, without falling any further if they spend a turn not moving, so that was surprisingly unproblematic.
Here's what stuck out to me as having some room for improvement or expansion:
My suggestions at this point would therefore be to implement the following:
And that's my findings for the barathu. I'll be curious to know of others' experience with the ancestry in their own games, and if they caught anything the above misses too.
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I agree. I do think though that the Smooth Hover feat should be an ancestral ability.
Also, there's the issue with Step: You need 10 ft. of speed to be able to Step, so Barathus can't unless they grab Fleet or some mobility enhancer and suddenly they can Step. They should have the ability to Step in the air. Actually, I don't understand why they have a ground speed, I don't see them walking on the ground.
But overall, I agree with you. As it is written now, the Barathu generates weird rules interaction and have to land and somehow rely on their ground speed which causes issue for my mind's eye. The concept of floating Ancestry should be more properly defined.
I think the idea behind the 5-foot Speed is that if you do fall to the ground, you can still flop around like a big, stupid jellyfish, much like how the merfolk ancestry also has a 5-foot land Speed.
Similarly, I imagine that being unable to Step unless you have a higher speed is meant to reflect that anyone at 5 Speed is too ungainly to move carefully, but at the same time that breaks interactions with a bunch of abilities that expect everyone to be able to Step, like the Commander's Defensive Retreat tactic, and is especially bad news when Reactive Strike gets involved. It may be a good idea to reduce that restriction to 5 speed, so that barathus, merfolk, and other creatures with an equally low Speed can Step normally when needed.
I agree with you that the concept of a floating ancestry could perhaps use a bit more definition. I too imagine Barathus as floating just above the ground when idle without much effort, which conflicts a bit with the Fly action's requirement to keep actively Flying to stay aloft. Perhaps there needs to be a special trait that handles this, e.g. a "hovering" trait or the like, where you specifically get to ignore that requirement, and if added to the barathu's trait list that would let the ancestry hover normally at all times.
Yea, a little clarity that if you end your fly action at ground level you don't need to spend actions hovering would be nice
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In SF1e Barathu has a ground speed of 0. The Barathu having a ground speed of 5 in the playtest to me feels like a crawl speed but you can't even crawl without a ground speed of 10 which means Barathu can't move when prone. So I wonder why they have a base speed at all, maybe if you have some means of staying on the ground in zero-G it might help.
Without growing legs with a feat, crawling or dragging itself along the ground is how I would imagine a Barathu moving when not floating.
I do think having dedicated float rules could help or at least clarifying floating species can hover at ground level for free.
In general, I'm against the idea of grounding Starfinder species to make them Pathfinder-compatible, but every table is different, I'm fine with compatibility guidelines but not the idea of compatibility rules. Personally, I'd rather have the GM tell me not to play a flying specie, than have my character adjusted. At least for me the way to make low level flying PCs compatible in Pathfinder is to give NPCs ranged weapons. I know a goblin merchant who is happy to sell arrows to anyone. There are other ways to adjust encounters too, such as creating hazards that only affect flying creatures or PCs to discourage but not completely eliminate flying. Lower ceilings, or have spiders or some other creature that lives on the ceiling and only attack flying creatures. Outdoors, there could be falling creatures that only pray on other flying creatures. Swap one of the PC's opponents with a flying creature.
In general, I'm against the idea of grounding Starfinder species to make them Pathfinder-compatible, but every table is different, I'm fine with compatibility guidelines but not the idea of compatibility rules. Personally, I'd rather have the GM tell me not to play a flying specie, than have my character adjusted. At least for me the way to make low level flying PCs compatible in Pathfinder is to give NPCs ranged weapons. I know a goblin merchant who is happy to sell arrows to anyone. There are other ways to adjust encounters too, such as creating hazards that only affect flying creatures or PCs to discourage but not completely eliminate flying. Lower ceilings, or have spiders or some other creature that lives on the ceiling and only attack flying creatures. Outdoors, there could be falling creatures that only pray on other flying creatures. Swap one of the PC's opponents with a flying creature.
I would say that the effort required to accommodate flying creatures in Pathfinder at low level may make this difficult: you can't give wildlife easy access to ranged attacks, so the GM would have to adjust many of their encounters, many traps and hazards presume an inability to fly, so you'd have to adjust your traps and hazards to deal with flying PCs, and some environmental puzzles are trivialized by flight at low level as well, so the GM would have to adjust how they run exploration as well. That's a lot of hidden compatibility rules compared to just offering a player the option of taking an ancestry that remains grounded until level 9. Worth noting as well that the grounded benefits being suggested reflect the benefits of other ancestries, including other ancestry feats, so your grounded Barathu would be on the same power level as a strix or a kobold.
Yea, a little clarity that if you end your fly action at ground level you don't need to spend actions hovering would be nice
If you end your turn without Flying and are at ground level, you fall a grand total of 0 feet and can keep doing exactly everything you could do previously, so that in itself requires no clarification.
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I am hoping there are more hovering rules for SF2 this was an issue in SF1 as well with things like the hover drone that kept having to land every turn until eventually they added some rules so that a hover vehicle/drone can hover.
Flight in pathfinder seems to assume aerodynamic flight but in starfinder 2 more pure hover flight options should become available. A barathu should be able to hover in position if they fly up they should just be able to hang there.
I am hoping there are more hovering rules for SF2 this was an issue in SF1 as well with things like the hover drone that kept having to land every turn until eventually they added some rules so that a hover vehicle/drone can hover.
Flight in pathfinder seems to assume aerodynamic flight but in starfinder 2 more pure hover flight options should become available. A barathu should be able to hover in position if they fly up they should just be able to hang there.
I agree with this completely. Flight rules start to make a fair bit less sense when dealing with lighter-than-air creatures, antigrav tech, and other effects that would let a creature hover without any effort on their part. Thankfully, this should hopefully be a fairly easy thing to solve in 2e, given how modular the game is. Just as an example, you could invent a trait as follows:
Hovering You can remain aloft with little to no effort. Ending your turn without using a Fly action this round does not cause you to fall. Creatures with the hovering trait typically also have a fly Speed.
And then slap it on anything you want to hover at-will, like the barathu or a hover drone.
In general, I'm against the idea of grounding Starfinder species to make them Pathfinder-compatible, but every table is different, I'm fine with compatibility guidelines but not the idea of compatibility rules. Personally, I'd rather have the GM tell me not to play a flying specie, than have my character adjusted. At least for me the way to make low level flying PCs compatible in Pathfinder is to give NPCs ranged weapons. I know a goblin merchant who is happy to sell arrows to anyone. There are other ways to adjust encounters too, such as creating hazards that only affect flying creatures or PCs to discourage but not completely eliminate flying. Lower ceilings, or have spiders or some other creature that lives on the ceiling and only attack flying creatures. Outdoors, there could be falling creatures that only pray on other flying creatures. Swap one of the PC's opponents with a flying creature.I would say that the effort required to accommodate flying creatures in Pathfinder at low level may make this difficult: you can't give wildlife easy access to ranged attacks, so the GM would have to adjust many of their encounters, many traps and hazards presume an inability to fly, so you'd have to adjust your traps and hazards to deal with flying PCs, and some environmental puzzles are trivialized by flight at low level as well, so the GM would have to adjust how they run exploration as well. That's a lot of hidden compatibility rules compared to just offering a player the option of taking an ancestry that remains grounded until level 9. Worth noting as well that the grounded benefits being suggested reflect the benefits of other ancestries, including other ancestry feats, so your grounded Barathu would be on the same power level as a strix or a kobold.
Yea, a little clarity that if you end your fly action at ground level you don't need to spend actions hovering would be niceIf you end your turn without Flying and are at ground level, you...
If that's the intent (which is great if so) the 5ft ground speed really doesn't seem necessary so long as you stay in the ground level plane/square and solely use your fly speed to move horizontally. I'm confused about the purpose of the ground speed
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I think the 5 foot move speed is basically just giving them the option to pull themselves along with their tentacles. I don't know that you would really use it but it makes sense they can do it.
If that's the intent (which is great if so) the 5ft ground speed really doesn't seem necessary so long as you stay in the ground level plane/square and solely use your fly speed to move horizontally. I'm confused about the purpose of the ground speed
Having no Speed means many options would simply cease to interact with you at all. You wouldn't be able to Stellar Rush, Step, or Crawl even with the Fleet feat, which wouldn't be able to increase a Speed that doesn't exist, and abilities and spells that would give you a benefit based on your Speed would give you nothing at all. An earthbind spell could completely immobilize you for a round or even a full minute, which would be a pretty big feelsbad moment for any barathu. Even a crap Speed of 5 is miles better than any of this.
Not a real criticism, but we're definitely going to need compatibility adjustments for flying ancestries like the barathu, as well as other flying creatures below 9th level, so that they can play well in Pathfinder (besides disallowing them outright, which I think would be a shame).
This already seems mostly covered by the special rules for Flying PCs on Page 68 of the Ancestry Guide.
Flying PCs: Certain ancestries, such as strix or sprites, have wings. The presented ancestry rules intend to provide a good combination of story and game balance for most groups. However, some players might have character concepts that don’t fit this assumption and might wish to fly from initial character creation. At the GM’s discretion, the GM can grant these PCs a 15-foot fly Speed, replacing any other abilities that involve flying, such as the strix’s Wings ancestral trait. In this case, any feat that upgrades the PC’s flying capabilities, such as the strix’s Fledgling Flight and Juvenile Flight feats, might instead upgrade this Speed by an additional 5 feet. However, GMs who allow this option should be aware that a PC who can constantly fly can trivialize many low- and mid-level challenges, consistently outshining or leaving other characters behind; the GM should consider this option very carefully before allowing it and adjust the game accordingly.
You'd straight up not allow Barathu in a PF2 game where a flying PC would pose a problem, but in a game where you'd let Strix and Sprite PCs start with a flying speed you'd allow them. Literal "people from space" should be Rare in the context of a Golarion game, so you'll be talking to the GM about your character as sure as you would if you're playing a Skeleton or a Poppet.
You'd straight up not allow Barathu in a PF2 game where a flying PC would pose a problem, but in a game where you'd let Strix and Sprite PCs start with a flying speed you'd allow them. Literal "people from space" should be Rare in the context of a Golarion game, so you'll be talking to the GM about your character as sure as you would if you're playing a Skeleton or a Poppet.
I would take particular note of this bit of the thing you're quoting:
However, GMs who allow this option should be aware that a PC who can constantly fly can trivialize many low- and mid-level challenges, consistently outshining or leaving other characters behind; the GM should consider this option very carefully before allowing it and adjust the game accordingly.
I am aware of these rules, and if you're dead-set on letting your PCs fly, go right ahead. However, what I am signalling is that we need compatibility adjustments that let these flying PCs not trivialize low- and mid-level challenges. Therefore, there is still grounds for separate compatibility rules.
Fair point. Granting them a hovering land speed as an optional rule might be a workable approach. Basically they cannot hover beyond a few inches off the ground,
Perhaps they'd still be immune to pressure plates, but there is still the caveat that if they do not trigger a pressure plate, their allies still unknowingly can. And if everyone failed the check to note such a hazard, sending the barathu ahead would not really give a benefit.
It would prevent hopping across gorges, eliminating those trivialities.
And if they cannot leave the ground-level 5-foot cube, they would not be able to abuse a height advantage to trivialize a combat encounter.
They already have flight speed so they can already cross gorges trivially. They can already jet around with an action task and abuse height advantages.
SF1 had the same problem initially and eventually put some rules in for hovering stuff because you had weirdness like mechanics hover drones that were stated to constantly hover had to land frequently. Then you have races like barathu and contemplatives who by default really don't have functional legs and spend their life permanently hovering/floating.
The default pathfinder rules for flight all seem to assume aerodynamic flight but that is not what a lot of stuff in starfinder is doing. In theory in starfinder 2 basically everything you are fighting other than certain animals has ranged attacks. People can get jet packs/flight options very early via a lot of means so some things being able to hover should not cause any issues.