|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Was perusing the War of Immortals blog post and when I went to look at the books, I saw a $67.49 price tag, which I'd never seen before.
Started looking around and noted that Howl of the Wild was $64.99.
Sorting rulebooks by price, it became clear that those are the two most expensive non-Special hardcover books right now. The Core series of books are all $59.99.
Is this the expected price for hard covers going forward? I was already pretty on the fence about buying HotW and WoI before I noticed the price disparity. Like, $5.00 and $7.50 isn't a lot of extra money. It's just kind of a sentiment thing. "Do I really want to pay more money for a book I wasn't super excited about anyway?"
If this is the new price, I'll probably just end up being a little more discerning about which books I end up getting.
Times is tough all around.
edit: Yes, PDFs exist, but I strongly prefer physical books. So in almost all cases, if I'm interested enough to buy a RPG book, I'm interested in buying a physical one.
Director of Rules & Lore
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pricing structure was announced in this blog back in October, which should give you the information to help make your purchasing decisions.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Interesting. The prices for HotW and WoI doesn't perfectly match any of the examples in that blog post.
Interpolating from the blog post, does that mean that HotW has ~224 pages, and WoI has ~246 pages?
Oh. No, the page numbers are listed on the product page, and they're both 224. HotW matches expectations, but WoI priced higher than was explained as "typical" for its page count.
I saw a youtube video from Stephen Glicker from Roll for Combat explaining the tremendous cost increases for physical books in the last few years. I am pretty sure Paizo is not making any more money by raising the prices of the books; rather defraying the increasing costs they are paying.
Link please?
Printing prices have gone up massively over the last few years, though I agree I would have expected WoI to be $64.99.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I saw a youtube video from Stephen Glicker from Roll for Combat explaining the tremendous cost increases for physical books in the last few years. I am pretty sure Paizo is not making any more money by raising the prices of the books; rather defraying the increasing costs they are paying.
A buddy of mine in publishing mentioned something like an 8x increase in the cost of paper during the pandemic that hasn't gone back down yet.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Inflation increases the cost of goods for businesses as well. It doesn't just impact the consumer because the producer is being a jerk. It impacts all the fixed and variable costs of production from labor to material costs which businesses pass on to maintain margins at the levels they've set to meet profitability and cash flow goals to maintain the business through good and bad times.
I don't know why when prices go up, I always hear that some company is gouging people. All this inflation they've been talking about in the news has impacted businesses as well for cost of production. So the "record" profits people keep making sound like something great isn't record net margin. The price increases are done to maintain margins at previous percentage levels set by the business to achieve predetermined profitability goals and cash flows that allow the business to maintain a similar level of profitability in an inflationary environment.
All Paizos costs have gone up from labor to materials to shipping, so they have had to pass them on to the customer to maintain the business.
They can only go as far as price elasticity allows. They have to also try to stay slightly ahead of inflation as repricing like you see gas repriced or other commodities doesn't work quite as well for books or creative goods because a production run once made has a set cost that can't be altered until the production run is sold and costs have to recalculated for the next production run with possible price increases which occurs at a slower pace depending on the demand for the product.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
People complain about price gougers because when things begin to stabilize many of the prices don't go down again.
That's greed.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
People complain about price gougers because when things begin to stabilize many of the prices don't go down again.
That's greed.
That is not what happens. You have seen major wage increases which did not go down which has permanently increased the cost of labor. Cost of labor is a multiplier on overall variable costs because the cost of labor affects the final product the book, the printing, the paper production, as well as the cost of writing the book and art.
You should be looking to see if margins have expanded substantially, not overall cost or absolute profit. If a margin was 10 percent before inflation and it is 10 percent after inflation, then the profit margin has not changed, just the cost of production.
So if you can prove that Paizo's margins (the percentage) have expanded due to the price increase beyond inflation, then perhaps they are price gouging. If their margins have maintained or shrunk even if the dollar amount has gone up, then that means they are not gouging but passing on the cost of inflation they too are experiencing.
I do not understand why you think that when inflation normalizes that costs will drop. That is not how it works. Inflation takes prices up including the cost of labor to a new equilibrium point and it generally stays there unless there is deflation.
The last time deflation occurred on a massive level was 2008. I think everyone old enough to remember why understands why deflation occurred during The Great Recession.
This isn't what happened recently. This was bog standard high inflation which increased costs across the board for consumers and businesses. I'm not sure they are coming back down. Last inflation report was roughly 3.1 percent, but nowhere near the 2 percent The Fed shoots for. GDP growth was 2.8 percent, which means inflation still outpaced GDP.
How this impacting a creative business like Paizo, I am not sure other than I know their cost of labor went way up given Seattle now has a 20 dollar minimum wage, 19.97 currently. That cost is not going to be eaten by the company keeping their margins low to do what? Make customers happy?
Paizo is already one of the most generous RPG companies in the business giving their game away on a web site. If they are pricing books at the price point they are, it is because it is necessary to sustain their business and probably also has to account for a new digital age of piracy as well as Paizo giving their game away on web sites which are far easier to access than previously which puts downward pressure on sales.
Paizo is the last company I would accuse of price gouging. They recently unionized which may have also put pressure on their cost of labor.
If Paizo has increased the cost of books, it's because that is the price that allows them to meet their business goals while also providing the various product channels free and paid they provide.
I find it so strange that Paizo is ever accused of price gouging given how incredibly generous they are with licensing, free product, and providing their base game for free in a digital medium. Paizo is a rare very consumer friendly company. Even these forums are provided free of cost and likely have a price for moderation and bandwidth Paizo pays out of pocket.
Paizo is a pretty consumer friendly company. It's pretty crazy to me as an investor that they are ever accused of price gouging seeing what I see with businesses that really aren't very consumer friendly and will squeeze every dollar they can out of their customer while providing not so great service or product.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Prices might also be affected by the volume they expect to sell.
All fixed cost inputs to the price of the product take up a smaller portion of cost per book when the presales reach a certain point.
But im sure the company has a good idea of about how many they will sell and set the prices with that in mind. And set the deadlines for their design teams based on the number of hours they can reasonably spend on any one product and still see a return.
If they undersell they take a hit but if they do really well on copies sold its both good for the health of the company and the roll out of future products.
Talking about price gouging doesn't make much sense in the gaming industry either. They sell products with high elasticity of demand. No one needs to buy a Pathfinder book to get to work each day or keep fed ect...
They will feel it if they go too far above a reasonable price point.
When their costs go up and they pass those on to customers they know they are losing some customers to do it but they have to make that calculation of how much they can do and move on.
But like Deriven pointed out, they keep the rules free for anyone to access and that is a customer oriented business model that doesn't leave behind customers that couldn't pay the increased prices.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Paizo is the last company I would accuse of price gouging. They recently unionized which may have also put pressure on their cost of labor.
If Paizo has increased the cost of books, it's because that is the price that allows them to meet their business goals while also providing the various product channels free and paid they provide.
I find it so strange that Paizo is ever accused of price gouging given how incredibly generous they are with licensing, free product, and providing their base game for free in a digital medium. Paizo is a rare very consumer friendly company. Even these forums are provided free of cost and likely have a price for moderation and bandwidth Paizo pays out of pocket.
Paizo is a pretty consumer friendly company. It's pretty crazy to me as an investor that they are ever accused of price gouging seeing what I see with businesses that really aren't very consumer friendly and will squeeze every dollar they can out of their customer while providing not so great service or product.
Allow me to be very clear on one point: I did not accuse Paizo of price gouging.
Allow me to be very clear on one point: I did not accuse Paizo of price gouging.Paizo is the last company I would accuse of price gouging. They recently unionized which may have also put pressure on their cost of labor.
If Paizo has increased the cost of books, it's because that is the price that allows them to meet their business goals while also providing the various product channels free and paid they provide.
I find it so strange that Paizo is ever accused of price gouging given how incredibly generous they are with licensing, free product, and providing their base game for free in a digital medium. Paizo is a rare very consumer friendly company. Even these forums are provided free of cost and likely have a price for moderation and bandwidth Paizo pays out of pocket.
Paizo is a pretty consumer friendly company. It's pretty crazy to me as an investor that they are ever accused of price gouging seeing what I see with businesses that really aren't very consumer friendly and will squeeze every dollar they can out of their customer while providing not so great service or product.
I felt you were referencing industries like the oil industry during and after the pandemic.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXyWNjck3XI
Roll for combat has a lot of videos on the economy of gaming. This is one.
Books are going to keep increasing in price. I decided that physical space was why I was switching to PDFs, but probably cost would play into it somewhat now. The technology for displaying PDFs has gotten to the point that I can even read books on my phone, but still prefer to read on my PC.
Roll For Combat Pricing linkified.
|
|
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know why when prices go up, I always hear that some company is gouging people.
Presuming you're talking more broadly and not just about Paizo, I suspect it's because in this most recent bout of inflation corporate profit margins increased significantly (some estimates put it at a ~30% increase) across the period of inflation, and there's compelling evidence that a significant portion of the total inflation was directly caused by corporate profiteering (some estimates put it about half of the total inflation). There's good reasons to expect that companies are gouging you in these circumstances, but I do not think it's true for Paizo - ttRPGs in general are a hard place to get people to pay the price the work is truly worth, so I suspect that in general inflation has lowered margins, rather than raised them, in this industry in particular.
This is probably untrue. We should expect profit margins to increase in times of financial insecurity because that's how companies 'save for a rainy day.' The less you know about how much you will make next month, the more you should sensibly try to make this month, because you want to make it through both months without starving.
It's perfectly normal. One of my past bosses used to talk about how the salary he negotiated for with our company worked out to half the hourly rate he charged as a private consultant. Half! Now about a third of that doubling functioned as his 'benefits package.' But the other two thirds is because while the company work was known and steady, the consultancy work needed to strategically calculate in more risk/uncertainty.
Not really how companies function. They will reset margins if they determine the need to do so in an inflationary environment where price points must account for current price increases and future price increases to maintain margin.
Margin expands only if price elasticity allows expansion, which it often doesn't as any movement in price may affect demand.
I'm not sure of the demographics for an item like RPG books as some RPG players have tons of money, some have very little. For most items other than very high end items price affects demand and a drop in demand can badly affect a business.
I don't know why when prices go up, I always hear that some company is gouging people.Presuming you're talking more broadly and not just about Paizo, I suspect it's because in this most recent bout of inflation corporate profit margins increased significantly (some estimates put it at a ~30% increase) across the period of inflation, and there's compelling evidence that a significant portion of the total inflation was directly caused by corporate profiteering (some estimates put it about half of the total inflation). There's good reasons to expect that companies are gouging you in these circumstances, but I do not think it's true for Paizo - ttRPGs in general are a hard place to get people to pay the price the work is truly worth, so I suspect that in general inflation has lowered margins, rather than raised them, in this industry in particular.
Do you have some proof of this? I follow business news and track earnings daily. I have heard no such thing about increases as expanding margins negatively impacts demand because of the way money works. This idea corporations can just increase prices and not have it negatively impact their business is a complete falsehood as money is limited and if price increases cannot be absorbed by consumers with increased wages you would see a massive concentration of money move into companies providing necessities while severe drops in companies providing disposable income items as all the money was sucked up by consumers keeping up with necessities from companies that expanded margins to the degree you are claiming.
One of the only companies I've seen severely expand margins was Nvidia, but that is because they are providing proprietary AI technology that commands a premium price due to its lack of competition.
Competition is a another thing that keeps companies from excessively expanding margins as a competitor that prices themselves out of market share has a harder time regaining that market share than one that maintains competitive pricing.
Unless of course you are one of those folks that presumes collusion on pricing between companies which is a rarity and a crime. It doesn't occur anywhere near as often as anti-capitalists like to promote. It's myth that isn't in line with how markets and money operate.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know why when prices go up, I always hear that some company is gouging people.Presuming you're talking more broadly and not just about Paizo, I suspect it's because in this most recent bout of inflation corporate profit margins increased significantly (some estimates put it at a ~30% increase) across the period of inflation, and there's compelling evidence that a significant portion of the total inflation was directly caused by corporate profiteering (some estimates put it about half of the total inflation). There's good reasons to expect that companies are gouging you in these circumstances, but I do not think it's true for Paizo - ttRPGs in general are a hard place to get people to pay the price the work is truly worth, so I suspect that in general inflation has lowered margins, rather than raised them, in this industry in particular.Do you have some proof of this? I follow business news and track earnings daily. I have heard no such thing about increases as expanding margins negatively impacts demand because of the way money works. This idea corporations can just increase prices and not have it negatively impact their business is a complete falsehood as money is limited and if price increases cannot be absorbed by consumers with increased wages you would see a massive concentration of money move into companies providing necessities while severe drops in companies providing disposable income items as all the money was sucked up by consumers keeping up with necessities from companies that expanded margins to the degree you are claiming.
One of the only companies I've seen severely expand margins was Nvidia, but that is because they are providing proprietary AI technology that commands a premium price due to its lack of competition.
Competition is a another thing that keeps companies from excessively expanding margins as a competitor that prices themselves out of market share has a harder time regaining that market share than...
Just to flip the question on its head, are you saying companies never engage in tacit collusion within an industry? that they don't look at one business as a price setter and without openly colluding keep similar pricing to avoid price wars and maintain market share where it is at?
|
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know why when prices go up, I always hear that some company is gouging people.Presuming you're talking more broadly and not just about Paizo, I suspect it's because in this most recent bout of inflation corporate profit margins increased significantly (some estimates put it at a ~30% increase) across the period of inflation, and there's compelling evidence that a significant portion of the total inflation was directly caused by corporate profiteering (some estimates put it about half of the total inflation). There's good reasons to expect that companies are gouging you in these circumstances, but I do not think it's true for Paizo - ttRPGs in general are a hard place to get people to pay the price the work is truly worth, so I suspect that in general inflation has lowered margins, rather than raised them, in this industry in particular.Do you have some proof of this? I follow business news and track earnings daily. I have heard no such thing about increases as expanding margins negatively impacts demand because of the way money works. This idea corporations can just increase prices and not have it negatively impact their business is a complete falsehood as money is limited and if price increases cannot be absorbed by consumers with increased wages you would see a massive concentration of money move into companies providing necessities while severe drops in companies providing disposable income items as all the money was sucked up by consumers keeping up with necessities from companies that expanded margins to the degree you are claiming.
One of the only companies I've seen severely expand margins was Nvidia, but that is because they are providing proprietary AI technology that commands a premium price due to its lack of competition.
Competition is a another thing that keeps companies from excessively expanding margins as a competitor that prices themselves out of market share has a harder time regaining that market share than...
I don't think this point is particularly relevant to the thread we're in, other than with regards to whether Paizo's price increases are driven by inflation or greed, which we all seem to be in agreement on. I'll not be responding further on this topic because of that, don't want to go too off-topic. But in response, the increase in profit margins is an objective fact (you can see it spike in the federal reserve's own data), with about a 70% increase in profit margin at the height of the peak, and a 30% increase in the last data point, with further decrease expected. For the impact on inflation, this report details the analysis which calculates it, but their figure is that about 1/3rd of the inflation in the pandemic (and 53% of the inflation in the latest two quarters with data available at time of publishing) was driven by corporate profits, compared to the 40-year average of 11%.
I also think you significantly underestimate the degree of abuse of market power in our current economies.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Unless of course you are one of those folks that presumes collusion on pricing between companies which is a rarity and a crime. It doesn't occur anywhere near as often as anti-capitalists like to promote. It's myth that isn't in line with how markets and money operate.
I know, right? Just look at this filthy anti-capitalist:
“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”
― Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...I don't know why when prices go up, I always hear that some company is gouging people.Presuming you're talking more broadly and not just about Paizo, I suspect it's because in this most recent bout of inflation corporate profit margins increased significantly (some estimates put it at a ~30% increase) across the period of inflation, and there's compelling evidence that a significant portion of the total inflation was directly caused by corporate profiteering (some estimates put it about half of the total inflation). There's good reasons to expect that companies are gouging you in these circumstances, but I do not think it's true for Paizo - ttRPGs in general are a hard place to get people to pay the price the work is truly worth, so I suspect that in general inflation has lowered margins, rather than raised them, in this industry in particular.Do you have some proof of this? I follow business news and track earnings daily. I have heard no such thing about increases as expanding margins negatively impacts demand because of the way money works. This idea corporations can just increase prices and not have it negatively impact their business is a complete falsehood as money is limited and if price increases cannot be absorbed by consumers with increased wages you would see a massive concentration of money move into companies providing necessities while severe drops in companies providing disposable income items as all the money was sucked up by consumers keeping up with necessities from companies that expanded margins to the degree you are claiming.
One of the only companies I've seen severely expand margins was Nvidia, but that is because they are providing proprietary AI technology that commands a premium price due to its lack of competition.
Competition is a another thing that keeps companies from excessively expanding margins as a competitor that prices themselves out of market share has a harder
That's all I need to know and what I expected: a biased source with an agenda.
Their methodology is bad and can't possibly be applied to all businesses. You do not see this in The Fed's information. Aggregate information in no way gives a possible picture of individual companies since pricing and macro and microeconomic factors affect companies differently.
This is pure fabrication.
How do they explain the multiplier effect of oil increases on something like trucking? Or a change in the price of coffee beans and how that affects a company like Starbucks? Or avian flu hitting chicken companies and the cost of chicken in the grocery store?
That's amusing a focus on diaper prices. The lumber industry has definitely had a wild ride.
This article is not accurate and you could see this by doing an analysis of several industries to see that it is projecting a viewpoint based on agenda over substance. Bad methodology.
I will leave it there as this is a role-playing forum. But this is like most things due to most Americans not being able to do analysis of base articles to see if their methodology is accurate at laying out the argument. Industries are so varied, that would be incredibly difficult, especially for an article this small.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unless of course you are one of those folks that presumes collusion on pricing between companies which is a rarity and a crime. It doesn't occur anywhere near as often as anti-capitalists like to promote. It's myth that isn't in line with how markets and money operate.I know, right? Just look at this filthy anti-capitalist:
“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”
― Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Which is why price fixing is a monitored crime.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...I don't know why when prices go up, I always hear that some company is gouging people.Presuming you're talking more broadly and not just about Paizo, I suspect it's because in this most recent bout of inflation corporate profit margins increased significantly (some estimates put it at a ~30% increase) across the period of inflation, and there's compelling evidence that a significant portion of the total inflation was directly caused by corporate profiteering (some estimates put it about half of the total inflation). There's good reasons to expect that companies are gouging you in these circumstances, but I do not think it's true for Paizo - ttRPGs in general are a hard place to get people to pay the price the work is truly worth, so I suspect that in general inflation has lowered margins, rather than raised them, in this industry in particular.Do you have some proof of this? I follow business news and track earnings daily. I have heard no such thing about increases as expanding margins negatively impacts demand because of the way money works. This idea corporations can just increase prices and not have it negatively impact their business is a complete falsehood as money is limited and if price increases cannot be absorbed by consumers with increased wages you would see a massive concentration of money move into companies providing necessities while severe drops in companies providing disposable income items as all the money was sucked up by consumers keeping up with necessities from companies that expanded margins to the degree you are claiming.
One of the only companies I've seen severely expand margins was Nvidia, but that is because they are providing proprietary AI technology that commands a premium price due to its lack of competition.
Competition is a another thing that keeps companies from excessively expanding margins as a competitor that prices themselves out of market share has a harder
Why did you post this Fed article when it contradicts your claim? Did you read it?
Corporate profit margins were not abnormally high in the aftermath of the COVID- 19 pandemic, once fiscal and monetary interventions are accounted for. This conclusion is supported by the behavior of the net capital share, which remained well below its historical high levels, and by firm-level profit margins across different size categories, which behaved broadly in line with their pre-COVID trends. If there is any anomaly to note, it should probably be that the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic has been characterized by a persistent weakness in the profitability of middle-sized publicly traded firms.
The post-pandemic economy has been a very bumpy ride for businesses and consumers. It is still settling down.
I analyze financial statements all the time and businesses, margins are up for some and down for others with certain businesses getting absolutely wrecked, especially in the mid and small range like Paizo which have a great deal more trouble absorbing the impact of inflation or labor.
Some big businesses like Amazon, Google, and Microsoft are flying high. Other businesses like Intel are getting hammered. A bunch of businesses have had an up and down ride and are stabilizing.
I do not see an extensive increase in margins from the perspective investor, gross or net. I do not know why some are trying to sell this to the public other than having a particular agenda.
I will leave it there.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...I don't know why when prices go up, I always hear that some company is gouging people.Presuming you're talking more broadly and not just about Paizo, I suspect it's because in this most recent bout of inflation corporate profit margins increased significantly (some estimates put it at a ~30% increase) across the period of inflation, and there's compelling evidence that a significant portion of the total inflation was directly caused by corporate profiteering (some estimates put it about half of the total inflation). There's good reasons to expect that companies are gouging you in these circumstances, but I do not think it's true for Paizo - ttRPGs in general are a hard place to get people to pay the price the work is truly worth, so I suspect that in general inflation has lowered margins, rather than raised them, in this industry in particular.Do you have some proof of this? I follow business news and track earnings daily. I have heard no such thing about increases as expanding margins negatively impacts demand because of the way money works. This idea corporations can just increase prices and not have it negatively impact their business is a complete falsehood as money is limited and if price increases cannot be absorbed by consumers with increased wages you would see a massive concentration of money move into companies providing necessities while severe drops in companies providing disposable income items as all the money was sucked up by consumers keeping up with necessities from companies that expanded margins to the degree you are claiming.
One of the only companies I've seen severely expand margins was Nvidia, but that is because they are providing proprietary AI technology that commands a premium price due to its lack of competition.
Competition is a another thing that keeps companies from excessively expanding margins as a competitor that prices themselves out of market share has a harder
Looking at comparative prices in a market is analyzing data, not price fixing. If Starbucks charges 8 bucks for a cup of coffee and Dutch brothers does the same after analyzing competitor price points is not price fixing.
Price fixing would be the CEO of Starbucks and the CEO of Dutch Brothers calling each other and both deciding to set the price of a cup of coffee at 10 dollars. Or to put it in RPG terms Paizo's CEO calling Hasbro's CEO and agreeing to price books at exactly the same price and continue to check the other for pricing.
Market data analysis will always be done to set competitive pricing against competitors and there is nothing illegal about a member of a company walking into a competitor's store and see what they charge. That is an expect part of doing business.
Even when I do business plan, I have to build the plan around competitive pricing for similar products to ensure I don't over or under price my product as well as checking to see if the competitor has sufficiently scaled their business to a price low enough to create a pricing moat as they have scaled their production costs low enough to push others out of the market or make entry hard. This is part of competitive business and how companies like Amazon and Walmart work as high volume, low cost retailers.
Another thread off the rails. Oh well, I'm out. No use discussing business on an RPG forum. Most people don't much understand how businesses work and how truly difficult is to "cheat" and stay in business. The big, bad business narrative may be attractive to some, but isn't true for 95 percent plus of businesses. But there are always bad actors which must be monitored.
To finish it, Paizo isn't one of them. They are a very consumer friendly business and if they are increasing pricing, it is for market reasons and not greed.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Which is why price fixing is a monitored crime.Unless of course you are one of those folks that presumes collusion on pricing between companies which is a rarity and a crime. It doesn't occur anywhere near as often as anti-capitalists like to promote. It's myth that isn't in line with how markets and money operate.I know, right? Just look at this filthy anti-capitalist:
“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”
― Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
Yes, but you also argued that price fixing is uncommon, and further, you literally stated that those who believe otherwise are "anti-capitalists." Meanwhile, there is Adam @$@# Smith arguing that price fixing is quite common indeed; inherent to capitalism, even.
So was Adam Smith "anti-capitalist"? Or did you misspeak? Because it doesn't seem like you can have it both ways.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Unless of course you are one of those folks that presumes collusion on pricing between companies which is a rarity and a crime. It doesn't occur anywhere near as often as anti-capitalists like to promote. It's myth that isn't in line with how markets and money operate.
Canadians who caught their grocery chains engaging in active price fixing on bread red handed would like a word, especially as those same chains have spent the last couple of years all jacking up prices in tandem on everything and posting massive profits while telling us "this time its legit, honest!"
I doubt Paizo is doing that, but the idea that it doesn't happen when we know for a fact that it does is laughable.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Which is why price fixing is a monitored crime.Unless of course you are one of those folks that presumes collusion on pricing between companies which is a rarity and a crime. It doesn't occur anywhere near as often as anti-capitalists like to promote. It's myth that isn't in line with how markets and money operate.I know, right? Just look at this filthy anti-capitalist:
“People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices.”
― Adam Smith, An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations
I spent nearly a decade making designs for convention booths and convention related advertising for a living prior to the pandemic shutting all that down. I'm VERY familiar with the convention scene.
Make no mistake: Price fixing and similar scheming definitely get their start at conventions oftentimes.
Word of mouth meet ups between thousands of people are essentially impossible to track or document, much less prove that any given plan such plans were put into motion (not unless they are dumb enough to keep meeting up outside such events or something--patterns are easier to track).
Canadians who caught their grocery chains engaging in active price fixing on bread red handed would like a word, especially as those same chains have spent the last couple of years all jacking up prices in tandem on everything and posting massive profits while telling us "this time its legit, honest!"
I doubt Paizo is doing that, but the idea that it doesn't happen when we know for a fact that it does is laughable.
Don't forget this. Automated price fixing, plausible deniability included!
...I don't know why when prices go up, I always hear that some company is gouging people.Presuming you're talking more broadly and not just about Paizo, I suspect it's because in this most recent bout of inflation corporate profit margins increased significantly (some estimates put it at a ~30% increase) across the period of inflation, and there's compelling evidence that a significant portion of the total inflation was directly caused by corporate profiteering (some estimates put it about half of the total inflation). There's good reasons to expect that companies are gouging you in these circumstances, but I do not think it's true for Paizo - ttRPGs in general are a hard place to get people to pay the price the work is truly worth, so I suspect that in general inflation has lowered margins, rather than raised them, in this industry in particular.Do you have some proof of this? I follow business news and track earnings daily. I have heard no such thing about increases as expanding margins negatively impacts demand because of the way money works. This idea corporations can just increase prices and not have it negatively impact their business is a complete falsehood as money is limited and if price increases cannot be absorbed by consumers with increased wages you would see a massive concentration of money move into companies providing necessities while severe drops in companies providing disposable income items as all the money was sucked up by consumers keeping up with necessities from companies that expanded margins to the degree you are claiming.
One of the only companies I've seen severely expand margins was Nvidia, but that is because they are providing proprietary AI technology that commands a premium price due to its lack of competition.
Competition is a another thing that keeps companies from excessively expanding margins as a competitor that prices themselves out of
I think most of us here agree Paizo is not price gouging.
But you did help lay down tracks in the direction this conversation has taken us so if you want to say its been derailed then we all have derailed it together.I may be wrong but it seems you didnt understand the question (Not shooting for indignation here, but it really looks that way). You assumed I was talking about setting competitive prices based on market research wherein you might determine if you could competitively cost your products or services in the existing market. No, i was talking about price setting behavior that seeks to avoid competition and undermine free markets legally.
If competition is a cornerstone of of a healthy free market economy tacit collusion is its antithesis.
If you did misunderstand my question I would suggest looking more into the term and examples.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Getting back to Ectar's original post, the answer appears to be "no to going up, if your baseline is Paizo's October 2023 post which Michael Sayre links to. Yes to going up, if you were unaware of that announcement."
To look at the specific examples OP gave, HoW did come in at 224 pages and WoI is listed as coming in at 224 pages. That puts both books in between the $59.99 listed for 192 pages and $69.99 listed for 256 pages, and hey look, the prices for both books are in between those two numbers.
Now the prices for the two books are inconsistent while the page count is listed as identical. So that might represent an increase Paizo made between HoW production and WoI production. But (a) WoI is still within the price range Paizo announced in October 2023 for books of it's page count, and (b) it could instead mean that WoI is going to be a few more pages than initially announced.
The discrepancy has me miffed, I'm not gonna lie. The blog post specifies that hard covers are going to vary in price, based on page count, which is something I can get behind. And Howl of the Wild actually perfectly fits the estimation between their listed price examples.
The fact that War of Immortals has the same listed page count and a different price still rankles, however. Especially since it appears to be the only exception to the blog post's projections.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Speaking personally only: For the life of me, I don't know how or why TTRPG publishers haven't all come to the an agreement and consensus in the modern era that PHYSICAL books are luxury products and should be priced accordingly. I don't mean luxury as in "something you don't need" but rather something that is not only replaceable with a functional equivalent that but also only really even continues to exist because of its own collectible or aesthetic appeal. The VAST majority of people who actually play TTRPGs these days use electronic devices to look up information for their games, use reference tools, PDFs, builders, free online databases, 3rd party services and similar options to play the game.
I'd be willing to bet, if I were a betting man, that 9 out of every 10 physical books sold, even when they are USED at least once for the purpose of "adding" material to the content a group can use at their game never actually get USED or looked at more than a very brief browsing to enjoy the art during character building or as a reference during gameplay.
They are bought because people want to support the publisher and the folks want to feel like they own a piece of the game for themselves. As such, it's not really so much of a tool, and it's also not a commodity but it's more like a piece of art than anything else but... it's not PRICED like one.
Personally, I say that it would be for the best to charge $100 USD for anything larger than 220 pages, $80 USD for books that are smaller than that. Special variant cover books should go for 20% more, and the "leather" cover ones should be twice the price. NOW, bear in mind that I think these marked-up physical books should have ADDITIONAL packaging, be non-refundable once the packaging is opened and all universally come with a 1-time code to unlock the PDF for an Account and that would add some weird friction with regard to how subscriptions on the website work but... yeah, maybe it's a hot take but the margins being so freaking slim on the physical books makes no sense as they are priced that way as if they are a necessity to play the game when, again, they are actually the LAST thing anyone could ever even begin to try to justify as being required and even then that argument only makes any amount of sense in a hypothetical world where civilization collapses, the internet fails, and electricity becomes a scarcity/unavailable.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's the legacy ttRPG publishers that have primarily avoided changing to a digitally-focused business model, and I think that's for a key reason: as soon as you do so, you completely alienate the brick-and-mortar stores. They're guaranteed, reliable sources of income for legacy publishers, and they're currently profitable - it's a lot to ask to give up the reliable and profitable source of income for now in exchange for the hope of an improved outcome in the long-term from the pivot to digital works as the focus.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Don't come crying to me when you can't roleplay during the apocalypse because you didn't think to purchase physical assets. :P
(And yes, I like financially the producers of content I thoroughly enjoy.)
If my financial situation was remotely stable, I'd be subscribed. The TTRPG industry is fragile and I like to support it, and I like having physical copies of things! I don't really care if prices go up as long as that money is going into the creators' pockets and encouraging other creators to up their prices as well. Honestly, $40 and $70 are virtually the same amount to me--they're a luxury purchase.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's the legacy ttRPG publishers that have primarily avoided changing to a digitally-focused business model, and I think that's for a key reason: as soon as you do so, you completely alienate the brick-and-mortar stores. They're guaranteed, reliable sources of income for legacy publishers, and they're currently profitable - it's a lot to ask to give up the reliable and profitable source of income for now in exchange for the hope of an improved outcome in the long-term from the pivot to digital works as the focus.
This. They're also a form of free marketing. You go into the store and see material from games there. I've seen new books I didn't even know were coming out there.
Hell, Paizo is actively catering to game stores right now with the sketch covers that are exclusive to them. From what I heard from my FLGS, these are quite popular among the folks that buy PF2 at the store and there was a waiting list to get one despite them costing more. (So it's already priced like a luxury item, that way.)
There's also older folks like me that just find it easier to do an initial read of the book and take in what it has in physical form. I can read a PDF but I'll pay more to read it in paper form. Its possible it will just become too expensive to do that one day and I'll have to adapt, but that isn't today.
The supply chain is still working through some of the lingering effects of the pandemic.
Fluctuations and shortages are still happening fairly frequently.
One of the exacerbating causes is the "bullwhip effect" which magnifies the bumps and potholes. The 'beer' game is a tool that is often used in first-year engineering classes to teach young engineers about how these effects can impact their jobs and their projects.
See
Bullwhip effect
Cool post; you taught me something new!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Speaking personally only: For the life of me, I don't know how or why TTRPG publishers haven't all come to the an agreement and consensus in the modern era that PHYSICAL books are luxury products and should be priced accordingly. I don't mean luxury as in "something you don't need" but rather something that is not only replaceable with a functional equivalent that but also only really even continues to exist because of its own collectible or aesthetic appeal. The VAST majority of people who actually play TTRPGs these days use electronic devices to look up information for their games, use reference tools, PDFs, builders, free online databases, 3rd party services and similar options to play the game.
I'd be willing to bet, if I were a betting man, that 9 out of every 10 physical books sold, even when they are USED at least once for the purpose of "adding" material to the content a group can use at their game never actually get USED or looked at more than a very brief browsing to enjoy the art during character building or as a reference during gameplay.
They are bought because people want to support the publisher and the folks want to feel like they own a piece of the game for themselves. As such, it's not really so much of a tool, and it's also not a commodity but it's more like a piece of art than anything else but... it's not PRICED like one.
Personally, I say that it would be for the best to charge $100 USD for anything larger than 220 pages, $80 USD for books that are smaller than that. Special variant cover books should go for 20% more, and the "leather" cover ones should be twice the price. NOW, bear in mind that I think these marked-up physical books should have ADDITIONAL packaging, be non-refundable once the packaging is opened and all universally come with a 1-time code to unlock the PDF for an Account and that would add some weird friction with regard to how subscriptions on the website work but... yeah, maybe it's a hot take but the margins being so freaking slim on the physical books makes...
The majority of people I know who buy books do so because they are easier to read than a screen and more likely to be picked up. They are also bought primarily by GMs.
I am surprised that this is not more common in your experience.
I also saw Tian Xian world guide go for a msrp of over $100usd in Australia and then not sell (having to be heavily discounted months later), so how would you approach making the books more palatable if you are suggesting they should be 20% or more expensive than that?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't forget this. Automated price fixing, plausible deniability included!Canadians who caught their grocery chains engaging in active price fixing on bread red handed would like a word, especially as those same chains have spent the last couple of years all jacking up prices in tandem on everything and posting massive profits while telling us "this time its legit, honest!"
I doubt Paizo is doing that, but the idea that it doesn't happen when we know for a fact that it does is laughable.
An example of automated price fixing that got caught.
https://www.npr.org/2024/08/23/nx-s1-5087586/realpage-rent-lawsuit-doj-real -estate-software-landlords-justice-department-price-fixing