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It is pretty trash. Now you're better off either taking the Shield option so you can have a slightly better shield (that got super nerfed too compared to what it was before), or just getting the free bonus movement which gives even better Champion Aura benefits against reactive attacks.
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I'm hoping this was a mistake and will get an errata. If it's deliberate, it's a very weak class feature now. Having to leave a rune slot empty to use a class feature that gets you weaker runes than what you could just buy and put on is... not great.
I'd already feared I'd been misinterpreting the original version and that Blade Ally should use up a slot, so I'm unsure whether this is a change or a clarification of initial intent. I'd thought that the "free Rune" was a way for Champions to catch up on some damage later (or utility, etc.) since the class lacked a solid damage or attack bonus like other martial classes, but maybe with so much defense it really was meant to simply get the generic baseline on offense (w/ feats vs. types of enemies, albeit common ones like "evil" or that might suit specific campaigns).
I suppose the answer might be in whether the Remaster added offense elsewhere to where it had to balance the scales, or maybe Paizo had to balance the innate attraction of offense/Blade Ally with the other options so they align better. (Plus, since MCD allowed poaching, maybe it had become all to common to nab Blade Ally to break the power curve for other classes, esp. throwing builds I guess).
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If you had a spell that simply said you conjure a sword, how would you answer someone who asked, "why are you assuming you can strike with that sword? It's not a real sword"
If? You mean Blazing Armory?
Though there is also Spiritual Armament (or even better, its predecessor Spiritual Weapon) that doesn't work like a weapon and you don't really make a Strike with it (Strike doesn't use spell attack rolls).
I'm pretty sure that I have always ruled and argued that Blade Ally rune effect counted against the limits of rune effects allowed on a single weapon. Yes, it means that you don't have a superpowered weapon that is better than anything money can buy. You do have the flexibility of choosing each day which rune effect your weapon has.
Some other things that behave somewhat similarly and may have similar questions on the rulings are Magus: Runic Impression and Conductive Weapon.
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Yes, it means that you don't have a superpowered weapon that is better than anything money can buy.
That's a really funny and not at all loaded way to describe someone using a class feature.
Yes, it means that you don't have a superpowered weapon that is better than anything money can buy.That's a really funny and not at all loaded way to describe someone using a class feature.
Sorry. Was meaning that quite literally.
I wouldnt count the spirit granting a rune against the total number of runes a weapon can hold.
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You know though, getting a rune for free that you can swap out each day and later get stronger runes like astral and holy you can swap out with 10 minutes is not terrible as a chassis feature even if it takes up a rune slot.
It is pretty trash. Now you're better off either taking the Shield option so you can have a slightly better shield (that got super nerfed too compared to what it was before), or just getting the free bonus movement which gives even better Champion Aura benefits against reactive attacks.
As Dark says, both shield and blade ally got hit hard, it's a rather throwaway ability now. It's not nothing, but it went from Nice to Meh.
I played with a dual weapon warrior paladin, hammer and shield boss, with special material to get 5 runes. It was strong, but still nothing compared to a fighter or barb. Was almost on the level of my STR based dragon form druid(with elemental damage runes.).
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What it means is the Divine Ally for both blade and shield got a significant nerf in the remaster.
Champion didn't need a nerf.
The archetype Champion did get some appropriate attention though.
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I'm gonna cite my "look the player in the eye" test. Player finds a runed up magic sword perfect for their character, says "sweet, i'm going to switch my blade ally to this thing!". Am I really going to tell them that their sweet loot deactivated their class feature?
Also, what about specific magic weapons?
I'm calling this one a mistake.
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Or worse… their class feature deactivated the sweet loot. I was extremely disappointed in this change. For a class feature to, essentially, only save you around 50-200 gold depending is really bad. Sure, you can change it every day, choosing between the other meh runes.
Yes, later, you can expand the runes that you can choose. But that costs you a high level feat. It not just a benefit of the class feature. It’s the class feature plus a class feat. Now you have two major abilities essentially focused on saving gold. At 10th level, you’re saving 500-1,400gp?
My take as far as specific magic weapons go is that this does still work for them. But I haven’t looked through the minutia of the specific magic weapon rules.
I'm gonna cite my "look the player in the eye" test. Player finds a runed up magic sword perfect for their character, says "sweet, i'm going to switch my blade ally to this thing!". Am I really going to tell them that their sweet loot deactivated their class feature?
Also, what about specific magic weapons?
I'm calling this one a mistake.
Specific Magic Weapons is probably one of the few instances where this feature would actually make sense, and since you aren't etching or transferring runes, the feature works with it. Now you can have a Flaming Holy Avenger if you so wanted, which is neat.
That being said, "Specific Magic Weapon Handicap" is not exactly an exciting feature, especially at 3rd level where Specific Magic Weapons aren't really relevant.
Of course, you could always do the "cursed item" rule, where it functions like normal until the players use it, and now they are stuck with the consequences.
If the ability is not good when ruled as shutting down runes on a runed out weapon then why rule it that way?
Why not just rule it works?
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Yeah, I don't read this language as restrictive at all. I think if this was the intent of the ability, it would state specifically that this rune counts toward your total runes the weapon can have.
The other issue is this is a level 3 ability. Although unlikely, you could have still not have a +1 weapon at level 3. the restrictive reading then makes this ability completely useless.
If you can read something two ways, one that makes an ability work and one that makes it complete garbage, I think it is pretty clear which one is RAI until stated otherwise.
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If the ability is not good when ruled as shutting down runes on a runed out weapon then why rule it that way?
Why not just rule it works?
Because it's a matter of changing intent. The ability used to function as an added rune (which was already kind of weak, even with invested feats) that didn't count towards your limit, but now it does by RAW because it lacks the language needed to circumvent standard rules.
Maybe Paizo decided that with all of the other boosts and changes to Champions that they had to be nerfed in another aspect. Maybe Paizo pulled a Remastered Dying Rules and will maybe errata it back to function like before. But honestly, if all this is going to affect is home games, then I don't see the point in making a thread when you, as GM, can handwave that it works.
If the ability is not good when ruled as shutting down runes on a runed out weapon then why rule it that way?
Why not just rule it works?Because it's a matter of changing intent. The ability used to function as an added rune (which was already kind of weak, even with invested feats) that didn't count towards your limit, but now it does by RAW because it lacks the language needed to circumvent standard rules.
Maybe Paizo decided that with all of the other boosts and changes to Champions that they had to be nerfed in another aspect. Maybe Paizo pulled a Remastered Dying Rules and will maybe errata it back to function like before. But honestly, if all this is going to affect is home games, then I don't see the point in making a thread when you, as GM, can handwave that it works.
Is the word count for the ability shorter now?
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The wording implies it is no longer a rune effect that adds to your effective rune count (i.e., weapon potency number + 1) but just adds a property rune which will be capped by the normal property rune count.
I'm not entirely sure about this change.
you grant the armament a property rune of your choiceThe rule now specifically grants a rune. It doesn't cleanly override the general rule on the number of runes you can have.
So yes the convention would be that the general rule still applies as it is not specifically negated.
The original rule said In your hands, the item gains the effect of a property rune. Which just provided the effect and not an actual rune.
Most existing players are just not going to notice the difference. New players might. It is going to be an annoying pain point.
I know Paizo doesn't mind if we all play the game differently, but a lot of groups try to carefully play by the rules. This will be very annoying for certain players. People always feel loses more than gains. I wish Paizo would articulate why they thought this was necessary in an update that was already handing out lots of goodies to most classes.
Rebalancing wise Blessed Armament is now probably the weakest option. Blade Ally was the most common, though the old Shield ally was stronger for shield champions.
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I wish Paizo would articulate why they thought this was necessary...
A blog post series from the designers about the changes for the classes in the remaster would help a lot. Like just a bullet pointed list of changes and a sentence on why it changed with some light comment section replies would go a long way.
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I think if this was the intent of the ability, it would state specifically that this rune counts toward your total runes the weapon can have.
That's the problem. It has to state that it doesn't, otherwise it does. Because if it doesn't, then it defaults to the general rules. You need Specific Trumps General to be able to benefit from runes without them actually taking slots. The Remaster has removed the necessary clause, therefore it's quite obvious it's a change of intent.
Again, the best we can hope for is that this is just another case of the Remaster Dying rules, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for it.
The problem for the champion is if they want weapon critical specialization, they have to take blessed armament or get it through say an ancestry feat. Blessed armament is the only way in class to get weapon critical specialization.
Honestly, most critical specializations aren't that good. Very few of them are worth investing for, and the classes that get them innately aren't actually notable (especially with the Remaster), so taking Blessed Armament for critical specializations isn't worth it compared to free movement and added reaction buffs versus other reactions.
It's even worse for armor and armor specializations, but that is mostly an afterthought in this edition.
Yeah, critical specs can do some fun things for e.g. Fighter, who crits a lot.
But for Champion? If you tell me this doesn't add on top of the normal rune limits, I'm just going to take the Swiftness blessing instead and buy an Astral rune at 8 since it works on 90% of enemies without issue as is.
But as has been noted, this is a broader issue with using "gains a rune" as a shorthand to add effects to weapons. There's multiple kineticist impulses that run up against this for example, including one where it goes from flat damage that stacks with anything to "add a rune" on heightening, and obviously you shouldn't be losing damage there but...
Critical Specializations are only good for a select few weapon types. Hammers/Flails, Picks, and Spears are probably the strongest, but those weapons aren't often chosen due to other drawbacks. And as you state, unless you have Fighter accuracy, planning around critting isn't exactly the most reliable.
Champions don't have fighter accuracy but paladins do have one of the most easily accessible reactions, which is more mapless attacks, which is good for critting.
Though that has nothing to do with how broken and bad the strict RAW reading of the rest of blessed armament is.
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Crit Spec, much like Reactive Strike/AoO, should have just been built into the natural progression of Martial classes. It feels bad having to devote a limited class feat or ability to get a generic mechanic. If 6th level is when it's ok for classes other than Fighter to get Reactive Strike, give it to them. Or give it to them when they get Expert Proficiency. Give them Crit Spec when they get Weapon Specialization. Maybe have limitations for 8hp classes (Rogue only getting it with sneak is fine). And don't give it to 6 hp classes. But, you have to select an inferior option just to get the same crit spec that several other Martials get for free isn't going to feel good. Just like spending a 6th level feat to get Reactive Strike doesn't feel good from a standpoint of getting a cool, unique class feature, but also feels necessary, because Reactive Strike is better than so many cool, unique class features mechanically.
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Once again, as this topic appears to have reared its head, I'll chime in to say that I NEVER interpreted the original language to allow Weapons to benefit from more abilities than is permitted normally on a weapon.
Getting a free property rune on a Weapon that you can swap out every day (and save you TONS of gold in the process) gives you an immense amount of functional utility, especially if you aren't the type to blindly just push ahead into areas/combats/dungeons/enemies that you know nothing about or just fail to even try to be prepared for.
Yes, it means you can't have X+1 Runes on your Champion Weapon where X is the number that is permitted via the Fundamental Rune rules but... why was that ever a question? The terminology update here isn't a nerf at all, it's a clarification that eliminates a silly interpretation that posited that Blade Ally Champions the best candidate to wield a capped-out Magic Weapon because by that logic it could be "overclocked" to do more than any Weapon is ever intended to be.
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The 3rd level ability does not save you tons of gold, and the runes it provides access to aren’t fantastic. If you didn’t have to spend a 10th level feat to expand that to allow you to take a rune that you should have bought at 8th level anyway, it would be better. If the list expanded automatically at 8th level. But it doesn’t. It’s not saving you the 450 gp for Astral, which is not a big savings at 10th to begin with. It’s costing you Devoted Focus or Elucidating Mercy or any of the multiple 8th level feats that are better than it, or an archetype feat that you could have taken. Or Reactive Strike if you couldn’t fit that in earlier. I think if someone could pay 450gp for Reactive Strike, they would do that without question.
Being able to swap daily is not great, particularly when none of the runes trigger a weakness. Ghost Touch, if you know that far in advance you’ll face incorporeal, is really the only one that would be likely. Otherwise, you’re building around whichever of the runes you’re choosing.
Being able to swap ever 10 minutes is better, but again, part of a 10th level feat. In most adventuring situations, 10 minutes is too late, as you don’t know what you’re fighting until you’re fighting it. In the situations where you know going in, sure, there’s some benefit… for a 10th level feat.
The cost of that feat to get useful options is far higher than any gold it’s saving you. And you carry a poor class feature for 7 levels before you can get there.
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Hmm wouldn't we be discounting the early access to those runes that a third level class ability is allowing?
fearsome 5, ghost
touch 4, returning 3, shifting 6, or vitalizing 5.
Only returning is of level for a 3rd level character and its 55 gp. Is that really so little of a third level characters budget?
What if you choose shifting for the day? That costs 225 gp is a level 6 rune.
As you can see i like to play devils advocate.
I said I would allow it to be in addition earlier in the thread but I acknowledge its providing sufficient benefit even with Themetricsystem's reading of it.
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You will carry those rune options until at least 9th level. It’s better at some levels than others, but falls off fast. And by 8th, you’re going to want to buy a damage rune, since you are already behind most other Martial classes in damage. It’s just not a good ability as is. It is entirely possible that it was never meant to stack, and then it would not have been a good ability pre-remaster, either.
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You will carry those rune options until at least 9th level. It’s better at some levels than others, but falls off fast. And by 8th, you’re going to want to buy a damage rune, since you are already behind most other Martial classes in damage. It’s just not a good ability as is. It is entirely possible that it was never meant to stack, and then it would not have been a good ability pre-remaster, either.
Ok i can see that but should the level 3 class feature do more than provide early access, money savings that are good early, and ability to choose daily?
I mean does a feature gained at level 3 have to do more than that to be good for a level 3 feature?|
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You will carry those rune options until at least 9th level. It’s better at some levels than others, but falls off fast. And by 8th, you’re going to want to buy a damage rune, since you are already behind most other Martial classes in damage. It’s just not a good ability as is. It is entirely possible that it was never meant to stack, and then it would not have been a good ability pre-remaster, either.Ok i can see that but should the level 3 class feature do more than provide early access, money savings that are good early, and ability to choose daily?
I mean does a feature gained at level 3 have to do more than that to be good for a level 3 feature?
Yes, when it’s a main class feature, and the alternative is the equivalent of a general feat (fleet) plus a defensive benefit to any of your allies with your aura.
Edit: To expand, I’ll compare it to my previous least favorite martial 3rd level ability, Opportune Riposte. Opportune Riposte is so situational that it’s bad in comparison to other class abilities. But it is still situationally useful for your entire career, even if you never take a feat to improve it. Other than the crit spec, which is insulting to be an option instead of automatic, and only affects that single weapon, none of the things granted by Blessed Armament are useful past 8th level. You take it if you want the crit spec, and at some point you ignore the rest of the ability. (Or you spend a feat to get a better version at the expense of other, better things)
To put it another way, a bunch of middling abilities does not add up to one good ability.
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because by that logic it could be "overclocked" to do more than any Weapon is ever intended to be.
This might come across as frightening but yeah that's how class features work.
... Like imagine replacing 'champion' and 'rune' with 'barbarian' and 'damage' and ranting and raving about how Rage lets barbarians cheat the natural order of things by doing more damage than weapons were ever intended to deal.
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to say that I NEVER interpreted the original language to allow Weapons to benefit from more abilities than is permitted normally on a weapon.
RPGs have had these sorts of exceptions in them. That Paizo didn't make this clear would be sloppy on their part. That they never bothered to fix it till now means they never thought it a major concern. If true, it wouldn't be alone in this category.
Getting a free property rune on a Weapon that you can swap out every day (and save you TONS of gold in the process) gives you an immense amount of functional utility
How shocking that a character might get a good ability. Yes it was useful. It did enable the thrown weapon champion though which was kind of fun.
A blog post series from the designers about the changes for the classes in the remaster would help a lot. Like just a bullet pointed list of changes and a sentence on why it changed with some light comment section replies would go a long way.
I wish Paizo would articulate why they thought this was necessary...
Seriously. Why did this change? Was it intended to work this way originally and never clarified over 4 rounds of errata? Was the change an error and not intended (and given how many errors PC2 has, this is entirely believable)? Something to work with would help here.
Paizo's silence on some of this stuff doesn't do them any favors, really. Remaster Oracle has the same problem except worse, since there's fundamental questions about how some things are intended to work and we just have no way to answer them. The PF1 FAQ was at least something to work with.
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The rewording was clearly intentional. Whether that was to make it work the way they always intended or to nerf it, we might never know. Combined with the nerf to Shield Ally/Blessed Shield, it seems pretty clear that they felt like this overall 3rd level ability needed to be reduced in power. I don't know why, but it has made 2 of the three options in the ability pretty bad. Blessed Shield at least continues to improve on its own without additional feats, and it can end up being a substantial gold savings. But it is essentially just saving gold, and that is not really ever going to scream Champion to me.
Unless Blessed Shield applies to any shield that you pick up, in which case, it's a fantastic ability, and Blessed Armament looks even more terrible. That is something that should get clarified, because I've seen plenty of people interpreting Blessed Shield that way. Including, I think, some of the preview videos on Youtube, which will only make that a wider reading.
Blessed Shield got nerfed, but the final version both provides scaling gold savings and an evergreen improvement that cannot be simply paid for otherwise.
Which makes me more confused and skeptical of the idea that Armament is good being potentially a one time saving of 35 gold.