The book describes the Shirren as being natural diplomats and mediators, but their stat spread makes quite bad at it!
Is this intended, or is there some trick I'm missing?
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It might be something to do with being an ex-Swarm species. You don't need to convince others or project your individual will much in a hive mind.
That was my headcanon as well. Shirrens are just biologically and culturally accustomed to being in general agreement on important matters. Conversely, they delight in other individuals' quirky choices as much as their own, so seldom feel the urge to convince anyone else that their idiosyncratic opinions are wrong.
Shirrens do not do "edition wars."
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Shirrens do not do "edition wars."
What a strange mind they have. I get why no one trusts them.
They are good with words, but many people probably look at bug face and go, "Eeeugh"
But on a more serious note, with three boosts comes a flaw. The only flaws that would really make sense for a Shirren based on their lore are Strength or Charisma. Guess the devs when they drafted the Shirrens in SF1E they figured Charisma would work better between the two.
As for tricks, you're not required to take their stat spread, as you can swap it for two free boosts.
The entry says that other probably seek you out to mediate conflict; which while not necessarily implying a boost to cha, definitely implies that it's not your dump stat
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That's a good point why does the natural diplomats take a -1 to Charisma that just seems silly. I mean that is why there is the +2 Free Boosts I suppose? However that's a little bit like cheating or just bypassing the Ancestry's natural attribute scores/modifiers.
That's a good point why does the natural diplomats take a -1 to Charisma that just seems silly. I mean that is why there is the +2 Free Boosts I suppose? However that's a little bit like cheating or just bypassing the Ancestry's natural attribute scores/modifiers.
Oh absolutely. I dont mind taking the 2 free boosts, but I'm very strongly in the camp that the mechanics should support the flavor, and the flavor talks a lot about communally minded individualists that like to work out problems together.
It would be one think if there a way to Make an Impression and Request using wis to kinda go with the "yeah they look creepy and talk in your head, but Chk Chk is wise and fair, we should them out
It looks like Shirren society is not one where you can easily lie (there's even a Heritage with a bonus to Sense Motive) neither one where bullying people can have an impact. They seem to be quiet people.
So they can be good diplomats as they can read people well and are not prone to strong emotions. But the second you take them out of their comfort zone they are lost: They are not used to lying, imitating or impersonating, they can't show strong emotions to inspire people or bully them. And it seems they don't really have a strong artistic sense.
So it totally makes sense. Equating Charisma to diplomacy is flat out wrong. I expect much more from a high Charisma character than just being a good diplomat. We can even see Shirren's good diplomatic skills as a compensation for their inability to interact with people in a different manner, the same way blind people tend to develop their other senses to compensate their lack of sight.
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Equating Charisma to diplomacy is flat out wrong.
I didn't equate the two, but Diplomacy is a cha skill. Like I said earlier, I don't think they need a boost to cha (imo, a high wis already gets the "calm mediator" idea across already), but a penalty actively hinders the story they are supposed to be shooting for
But writing that others probably actively look to you for conflict resolution, and that a popular edict for you is seeking peaceful resolution for problems, and then giving you a penalty towards the skill that would make people listen to said solutions is like saying that a class is good at throwing bombs and then only giving them expert proficiency in said bombs they are supposed to be good with
That's a good point why does the natural diplomats take a -1 to Charisma that just seems silly. I mean that is why there is the +2 Free Boosts I suppose? However that's a little bit like cheating or just bypassing the Ancestry's natural attribute scores/modifiers.
That's not "cheating," it's the entire intent of the mechanic.
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Also, just going to put this out there, you don't HAVE to be a likeable person to be a good negotiator. You have to be smart, and good at figuring out what other people want (perception to sense motive.) If you come up with a compromise that makes everyone happy, who cares if they hate you at the end of the negotiation?
COURTIER SHIRREN are good at figuring out what people want, and with Shirren Lore, you get the society skill for free, which many GMs would allow to mediate a dispute.
Plus Linguistic shirren know a bunch of languages, and sometimes all you need is a translator.
The correct take is that wisdom is most important to diplomats (as a formal job) and mediators to identify common ground between parties and a basis for a trade or agreement. Few would say marriage counseling calls for high charisma as the most import aspect.
Also, with the background on shirren experiencing "immense pleasure when they make choices for themselves" and tending to chase new sensations, they probably manifest as slightly ADHD.
The book describes the Shirren as being natural diplomats and mediators, but their stat spread makes quite bad at it!
As a side note, what is exactly said in the book?
I find the part of being mediators: Others probably count on you to mediate disputes and act as a voice of reason. But that sounds high Wisdom and not really high Charisma.
And there's also: Others are probably disconcerted by your insectile physiology and telepathy. That doesn't sound high Charisma to me, quite the opposite.
The book describes the Shirren as being natural diplomats and mediators, but their stat spread makes quite bad at it!As a side note, what is exactly said in the book?
What I am seeing that is relevant here is:
YOU MIGHT...
• Establish deep and powerful bonds with your comrades.
• Revel in your freedom and delight in the opportunity to make your own decisions.
• Dislike violence and prefer seeking peaceful compromises that benefit everyone.OTHERS PROBABLY...
• Count on you to mediate disputes and act as a voice of reason.
• Believe you overvalue and overthink simple choices.
• Are disconcerted by your insectile physiology and telepathy.SOCIETY
Shirrens are highly individualistic, having escaped from the Swarm thanks to an adaptation to their physiology that causes immense pleasure when they make choices for themselves. This freedom of choice is respected and nourished by shirren culture, leading shirrens to adapt themselves to a wide variety of beliefs, philosophies, and professions. Shirrens are highly communal and tend to feel lonely unless they’re part of a group. Once a shirren chooses a community for themselves, they often seek to foster teamwork and prioritize what’s best for the group over what only benefits them as individuals, all while retaining their autonomy.
And I am also in the camp of 'name collision' where the Diplomacy skill being a CHA skill is colliding with the concept of a 'mediator and diplomat' that may not rely on charisma to get the job done.
I am also in the camp that a character's attributes are something inherent, not how they relate to the world or others. That was most notable in the concept of Alignment (which went away, yay), specifically Lawful alignment that has nothing to do with following the laws of the land. But it applies to Charisma as well. Your Charisma attribute is how effectively and confidently you can present yourself, not necessarily how well other people are going to think your appearance is or how much they like what you say. Your Charisma isn't about them - it is about you.
To reiterate (again), I'm not arguing that they should have a bonus to cha.
What I am saying is that in starfinder, mechanically, mediation is two skills; perception to Sense Motive as you listen to the parties discuss the matter, and Request to get them to agree to a resolution (and also to make someone stop bickering when things get heated).
Request is a Diplomacy skill action, which is keyed to the charisma stat. A mediator that can accurately identity a problem, but not get people to agree on a solution, is not really a good mediator.
More to the point, it's rather obvious that Diplomacy, as in the skill, is supposed to be important given that the skills granted by Shirren Lore are Society and Diplomacy (along with Additional Lore for Shirren Lore).
+con/wis/free, -cha *is* a good spread to cover the story of being recently freed from an all consuming swarm, it's just bizarre to prop them up as being good mediators when the stats say otherwise. It wouldn't so much be an issue if the text read "expect you to find a peaceful solution to a problem before turning to violence" instead of the bit about conflict resolution