I've been playing around with the new Alchemist and I've been liking what I've seen. There's only been one thing that bugs me and it's Healing Bomb.
Healing Bomb on a hit heals the target and adjacent ones heals a minimal amount. On a miss, the target heals a minimal amount. The issue comes from the Coagulant trait: If a creature heals Hit Points from an item with the coagulant trait, that creature is temporarily immune to healing Hit Points from subsequent items with the coagulant trait for 10 minutes.
That means anyone adjacent to your hit target becomes immune for 10 min to your Quick Alchemy healing [or your target on a miss]. That seems really bad and I'm not sure why it was added from the pre-remastered version. It'd be nice if the 'splash' healing was removed [or made optional] as it actively makes the ability worse.
Healing Bomb doesn't have the Coagulant trait though? In fact the only thing I can find with the trait in the whole of PC 2 is the Chirurgeon Field Vials.
Healing Bomb doesn't have the trait and it doesn't add it to Elixirs of Life.
Am I missing something?
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Healing Bomb can only be used via the Create Consumable option of Quick Alchemy, as Chirurgeon's VVs only gain the elixir trait if someone drinks them and Healing Bombs can only be Additive'd to things that have the elixir trait already, such as (of course) an elixir of life.
Since only the Chirurgeon's VVs have the coagulant trait, Healing Bomb can never intersect with that trait (thankfully).
Healing Bomb can only be used via the Create Consumable option of Quick Alchemy, as Chirurgeon's VVs only gain the elixir trait if someone drinks them and Healing Bombs can only be Additive'd to things that have the elixir trait already, such as (of course) an elixir of life.
Since only the Chirurgeon's VVs have the coagulant trait, Healing Bomb can never intersect with that trait (thankfully).
It's actually even more restrictive, Healing Bomb works only with Elixirs of Life:
"You can add a foamy catalyst to an elixir of life to turn it into a topical projectile. "
And those don't have the coagulant trait. And neither Quick Alchemy nor Healing Bomb adds it.
Yep, you guys are 100% right. I had it in my head that healing items created by Quick Alchemy had the trait but rereading it, I see I misread it. Ok, nothing to see here then... ;)
really hate healing bomb still need to roll attack
Yeah, it's not ideal. It's also annoying that the 'splash' healing isn't actually Splash, so all the feats for that don't work on the healing, like Directional Bombs. It does mean that Quick Bomber works on it though.
While it is a nerf, and I can understand why it's disliked, it's much more thematic than the old version. This version behaves like most other Bombs, which I appreciate. It fits the picture I have in my head much better.
I'm reminded of Life Shot ammo.
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This is from Pathfinder Society, but:
"There aren’t default rules for a creature choosing to be hit[...], but you can allow an ally to improve their outcome by one degree of success against a willing target or allow the target to worsen the result of their saving throw by one step."
So I'd run it by your GM. It makes sense that an ally willing to be hit with your healing bombs would make themselves an easy target, rather than hiding behind their shield or whatnot.
If it gets the greenlight, you'd still get the normal healing on a failed attack roll, and the limited healing on a crit fail.
It seems exceedingly unlikely that the feat would specify the degrees of success, but really mean for you to shift them all up by one step in the end.
Using the same logic, the old healing bomb feat would have made you literally unable to fail! That cannot be the intention.
The feat specifies the degrees of success, because it is aware of the PFS rule. If they hadn't done it this way it would be an effective intention that it be literally unable to fail in PFS.
Non-PFS players being big mad at things Paizo does because of the existence of PFS is an honorable tradition, there's probably a support group or annual haters ball.
It seems exceedingly unlikely that the feat would specify the degrees of success, but really mean for you to shift them all up by one step in the end.
Using the same logic, the old healing bomb feat would have made you literally unable to fail! That cannot be the intention.
The feat specifies the degrees of success, because it is aware of the PFS rule. If they hadn't done it this way it would be an effective intention that it be literally unable to fail in PFS.
Non-PFS players being big mad at things Paizo does because of the existence of PFS is an honorable tradition, there's probably a support group or annual haters ball.
The one-directional nature of Paizo making pf2 rulebooks, then PFS reacting to those rules as a 2ndary layer is kinda important.
Any amount of PFS --> pf2 reverse flow would be a crazy bad idea, as then you have the pf2 system compromised by outside dependency.
Keeping it one-way ensures that PFS is an optional enhancement/expansion that can cover rule-holes, though they sure do ban a lot of not OP options like Mustard Powder.
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Moreover, the PFS quote has the good sense to explicitly say that pf2 does NOT have rules addressing the issue, and that they (PFS) are making a house rule of their own.
If Paizo wanted that PFS ally-hit mechanic to be a real rule, they would/should have made it so in the Remaster.
Paizo did not add such a rule, and as written, Healing Bomb really does need the strike to roll a hit or better for the full healing. It is NOT valid to say that a PFS rule is a real pf2 mechanic.
While I'm certainly going to point to the PFS ruling myself when suggesting homebrew buffs for the Alchemist, we need to be clear that the PFS ally-hit rule is 100% not RaW.
While it is a nerf, and I can understand why it's disliked, it's much more thematic than the old version. This version behaves like most other Bombs, which I appreciate. It fits the picture I have in my head much better.
I'm reminded of Life Shot ammo.
I guess it's thematic that it works like a bomb... but it's also extremely user-unfriendly since Rallying Anthem/Inspire Defense making someone harder for an Alchemist to heal is really not a fun design.
It seems exceedingly unlikely that the feat would specify the degrees of success, but really mean for you to shift them all up by one step in the end.
Using the same logic, the old healing bomb feat would have made you literally unable to fail! That cannot be the intention.
The feat specifies the degrees of success, because it is aware of the PFS rule. If they hadn't done it this way it would be an effective intention that it be literally unable to fail in PFS.
Non-PFS players being big mad at things Paizo does because of the existence of PFS is an honorable tradition, there's probably a support group or annual haters ball.
The one-directional nature of Paizo making pf2 rulebooks, then PFS reacting to those rules as a 2ndary layer is kinda important.
Any amount of PFS --> pf2 reverse flow would be a crazy bad idea, as then you have the pf2 system compromised by outside dependency.
Keeping it one-way ensures that PFS is an optional enhancement/expansion that can cover rule-holes, though they sure do ban a lot of not OP options like Mustard Powder.
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Moreover, the PFS quote has the good sense to explicitly say that pf2 does NOT have rules addressing the issue, and that they (PFS) are making a house rule of their own.
If Paizo wanted that PFS ally-hit mechanic to be a real rule, they would/should have made it so in the Remaster.
Paizo did not add such a rule, and as written, Healing Bomb really does need the strike to roll a hit or better for the full healing. It is NOT valid to say that a PFS rule is a real pf2 mechanic.
While I'm certainly going to point to the PFS ruling myself when suggesting homebrew buffs for the Alchemist, we need to be clear that the PFS ally-hit rule is 100% not RaW.
Right, but I can easily imagine its existence influenced the degrees of success rules on healing bomb. "I can't make this overpowered/automatic in PFS, and it's not my fault this isn't a default rule in the rest of the system, good luck with finding GMs who will fix it, other players."
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Right, but I can easily imagine its existence influenced the degrees of success rules on healing bomb. "I can't make this overpowered/automatic in PFS, and it's not my fault this isn't a default rule in the rest of the system, good luck with finding GMs who will fix it, other players."
Yeah, definitely not the reason. Especially since PFS has been shown to be more responsive in making adjustments than Paizo is. Like, right now a lot of us are using PFS clarifications in lieu of PC2 errata because it's all we've got and they had some of the most obvious offenders covered almost immediately.
If Paizo changed the healing bomb and it would be broken in PFS, the PFS folks would just deal with it, so the idea that Paizo intentionally made healing bomb weak to avoid PFS issues just doesn't track.
I guess it's thematic that it works like a bomb... but it's also extremely user-unfriendly since Rallying Anthem/Inspire Defense making someone harder for an Alchemist to heal...
But, they don't make it harder for an Alchemist to heal. They make it harder for an Alchemist to heal at range.
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They make it harder for an Alchemist to heal at range.
Which in turn, make it harder for an Alchemist to heal in general... Right? I mean, that just logically follows that to me. :P
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I guess it's thematic that it works like a bomb... but it's also extremely user-unfriendly since Rallying Anthem/Inspire Defense making someone harder for an Alchemist to heal...But, they don't make it harder for an Alchemist to heal. They make it harder for an Alchemist to heal at range.
Since healing at range is literally the thing the feat exists to enable, this seems a remarkably pointless reply. In general, a Bard using a buff should not make an Alchemist actively worse at using a feat.
Since healing at range is literally the thing the feat exists to enable, this seems a remarkably pointless reply. In general, a Bard using a buff should not make an Alchemist actively worse at using a feat.I guess it's thematic that it works like a bomb... but it's also extremely user-unfriendly since Rallying Anthem/Inspire Defense making someone harder for an Alchemist to heal...But, they don't make it harder for an Alchemist to heal. They make it harder for an Alchemist to heal at range.
Why not? An ally granting you concealment makes you actively worse at receiving further targeted buffs or healing. There are trade offs in some things.
The difference is that concealment as a mechanic is designed entirely around being symmetrical (that is, the mechanic affects friendlies as much as enemies with no other factors involved).
Single target ranged healing is, generally, not designed with symmetry in mind - I don't have to make an attack roll to target somebody with 2-action Heal, for example, therefore a bard using their most common spells will not interfere with me attempting to heal them. Nor would somebody raising their shield. Or Taking Cover. Et cetera, et cetera.
Old Healing Bomb had the "you still hit on a fail" clause to sorta "bandaid" this little snag of tying healing to attack rolls, allowing you to still heal your target just as effectively even if they were a Full-Plate Champion with their shield up, since you were still more likely to fail than crit fail. The new version still does something when you fail to land the bomb, but your allies' usually-correct decision to raise their ACs can now reasonably screw themselves and you over since failing does reduce the effectiveness, where it didn't before.
The mechanics are rather weird, but once you add Quick Bomber it becomes quite nice. In my opinion, this is a plus for the new Healing Bombs.
The mechanics are rather weird, but once you add Quick Bomber it becomes quite nice. In my opinion, this is a plus for the new Healing Bombs.
It's not 100% clear they work together. Quick Bomber works with bombs, Healing Bombs are elixirs that you can throw "as if it were an alchemical bomb."
I think only willfully stupid GMs wouldn't allow it, so perhaps as many as 1/3.
It's not 100% clear they work together. Quick Bomber works with bombs, Healing Bombs are elixirs that you can throw "as if it were an alchemical bomb."
I think only willfully stupid GMs wouldn't allow it, so perhaps as many as 1/3.
There are many such aspects of the game were 2 interpretations were possible and the community chose one and it slowly infused inside most tables (especially through PFS). So I'm confident it will be a thing.
On the other hand, I've forbidden the use of Versatile Vials with Quick Bomber. The words are slightly different so I've considered it was not possible (even if Versatile Vials are also Bombs). This decision is clearly based on RAW, I wait to see what the community thinks to see if I should change my mind on that (I have adapted some of my rulings when I've realized RAW was considered inappropriate by most players).
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Quick Bomber obviously works with Versatile Vials.
It works if you use Quick Alchemy to create a bomb. An option of Quick Alchemy is to create a versatile vial (which have the bomb trait). These particular versatile vials can only be used as bombs or for your research vial option, but that's irrelevant to this interaction.
Is this Quick Alchemy? If yes, proceed.
Is the result of this Quick Alchemy a bomb? If yes, proceed.
Are versatile vials bombs, including the free ones? Yes.
Quick Bomber works with infinite Quick Alchemy vials. It's an obvious expectation to manage their DPR that hurts everyone but mutagenist if you don't allow it.
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Quick Bomber obviously works with Versatile Vials.
Sorry, I was not clear enough: I meant the Chirurgeon Versatile Vials that can heal your allies. This one is more problematic in terms of rules interaction. It's definitely Quick Alchemy and they are Bombs but you don't "Strike" with them, you "throw" them (which is a completely undefined action and can cause issues with many things like Reactions for example).
Oh, I agree with you there. It would be nice if they worked, but they don't.
They make it harder for an Alchemist to heal at range.Which in turn, make it harder for an Alchemist to heal in general... Right? I mean, that just logically follows that to me. :P
Well, no. Since an alchemist's healing schtick is not healing at range, but healing adjacent creatures (shenanigans to increase reach notwithstanding), adding the ability to heal at range actually makes their healing overall easier, even if other buffs make it harder to hit with bombs to deliver the ranged healing.
Healing at range makes Alchemist healing easier. The fact that the degree of easier varies based on AC buffs/debuffs/etc. does not make it harder for alchemists to heal in general...
Well, no. Since an alchemist's healing schtick is not healing at range, but healing adjacent creatures (shenanigans to increase reach notwithstanding), adding the ability to heal at range actually makes their healing overall easier, even if other buffs make it harder to hit with bombs to deliver the ranged healing.
I'd argue that "an alchemist's healing schtick" now includes ranged healing as they have a ranged healing option by default. The game clearly sets up the expectation for them to heal at a range so adding a another ranged option and making it much harder seems against that expectation.
Healing at range makes Alchemist healing easier. The fact that the degree of easier varies based on AC buffs/debuffs/etc. does not make it harder for alchemists to heal in general...
Healing that gets increasingly less likely to actually heal [or heal significantly less] while using a limited resource and actions and increasing MAP... The current set-up for Healing Bomb sure isn't straight up easier.
Healing Bombs with Quick Bomber are a very valid healing ability. Most one action healing abilities are melee (I actually fail to find a range one but there certainly is one). Healing Bombs are somewhat unique because of that. They are weak, but not once you consider they are a third action healing ability.
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Healing Bombs with Quick Bomber are a very valid healing ability. Most one action healing abilities are melee (I actually fail to find a range one but there certainly is one).
If you relegate it to a 3rd action and used any of those other 2 actions to Attack, you're just making your chance to heal drop even lower and if you use it first, the reverse is true for Attacks that are affected by MAP. This means you're left with finding a non-Attack action or pure save ones. And if you want/need to heal multiple people it becomes harder too for the same reasons.
Healing Bombs are somewhat unique because of that. They are weak, but not once you consider they are a third action healing ability.
The Chirurgeons Field Vials [no to hit to work], nudge the scales [advance curse, no to hit] and life boost [focus, fast heal, no to hit] are all 1 action ranged heals.
You are right that Healing Bombs are somewhat unique, but it's because it's the only heal option with a significant chance of failure: the debate, really, is if the failure rate is balanced against its benefits. For myself, it's a bit off for something that takes 2 feats and an encounter resource to use.
The Chirurgeons Field Vials [no to hit to work], nudge the scales [advance curse, no to hit] and life boost [focus, fast heal, no to hit] are all 1 action ranged heals.
Field Vials take 2 actions (unless you have one on hand which is a special occurrence not the default assumption). If you consider 50% chances to hit with Healing Bomb, it heals roughly as much as Nudge the Scales when you get to higher levels (9+). So I think Healing Bomb is acceptable power wise (a bit expensive, though, as you also need Quick Bomber).
If you relegate it to a 3rd action and used any of those other 2 actions to Attack, you're just making your chance to heal drop even lower and if you use it first, the reverse is true for Attacks that are affected by MAP. This means you're left with finding a non-Attack action or pure save ones. And if you want/need to heal multiple people it becomes harder too for the same reasons.
I agree. The main issue with Healing Bombs is to find a build that can use it. Weapon-based builds are obviously not working well with it and Alchemists tend to be weapon-based. The only build I see is the Chirurgeon who uses cantrips as their main attack so they can use Choker-Arm Mutagen without being penalized by its drawbacks. But then Healing Bombs are penalized twice as Choker-Arm gives a -1 and also because this build is not one with high Dexterity.
But I don't know what Paizo could do to make it more appealing. The fact that it interacts with MAP makes it hardly usable for a class who relies on weapon attacks. So maybe the solution is just to remove the interaction with MAP but then it's strange to make a Strike but not to increase MAP.
The #1 requirement of combat healing is consistency. If I need to heal someone, then I NEED to heal someone.
That's reactive healing, it's easy but it's not the only way to use healing. Proactive healing also exists: you can definitely heal someone who's not in a dire situation because you expect them to be attacked a lot in the near future.
Also, considering the amount of healing of Healing Bomb, it's definitely not your go to choice for emergency situations.
That's reactive healing, it's easy but it's not the only way to use healing. Proactive healing also exists: you can definitely heal someone who's not in a dire situation because you expect them to be attacked a lot in the near future.
True, though it's important to say that big chunky heals where you're not expecting to waste much healing on max HP is the default when people say "healing."
If I throw out a Life Boost, I don't really call that healing as much as I tend to say buffing or sustain. I haven't said HoT in a long time, though it's the most specific for things like Life Boost or Soothing Tonic.
For me personally, the main use of Healing Bomb (and Elixir of Life itself tbh) comes after the Chi's L13 feature that max-rolls the healing (still an incredibly stupid idea to design/implement, far too big a diff).
7d6 + 18 does kinda suck in any competition w/ Battle Med, spells, Prot Tree, etc. But! L13 Chi turns that into flat 60 HP.
And healing that for 1A at range may take 2 Feats and a (the) core feature of Chiurgeon to enable, but healing 60HP would be genuinely good if you didn't need to land an ally Strike.
But alas, H-Bomb sucks too bad to take.
I already need to be in touch range for buffing w/ other elixirs, for Bttle Md, etc. Not to mention that once allies start buffing AC, that 45% hit chance drops even more.
They buffed the Alchemist in areas we wanted, so they had to nerf them in other areas to keep the same power balance that they had in mind.
It's fine, we always knew non-magical healing would never trump or even be an adequate substitute to magical healing.
They buffed the Alchemist in areas we wanted, so they had to nerf them in other areas to keep the same power balance that they had in mind.
It's fine, we always knew non-magical healing would never trump or even be an adequate substitute to magical healing.
Man, this kind of apologetics is frustrating to encounter, and not just for the cloying sentiment of appeasement. Much of the time, apologists inadvertently highlight or frame things in a way that I had not scrutinized, and the situation feels even worse when I do.
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Paizo knew that Quick Bomber was the strongest Alchemist Feat, and they knew they buffed it even more in the Remaster via making it Q-Alch (and Additive) compatible.
Yet the moment Quick Bomber can be used for something other than Fumbus-ing, the moment it provides value to someone or something else, instead of doing the job and balancing things correctly, Paizo chose to nerf H-Bomb, to nerf the little guy daring to make use of Bomber's thing.
Like, f@*+ me. Buffing what's already strong and nerfing the things that need help is the opposite of what one is supposed to do in a remaster.
At some point, it stops being sad and just becomes aggravating.
If there is any truth to H-Bomb getting nerfed due to Quick Bomber & VVs (and once that is put to a question it's rather difficult to come up with a more likely reason), man oh man.
"This is why Alchemist cannot have nice things."
Because they will take the laziest route to meet their paper objective, tear up all the interconnected dependencies without a care, and then knee-jerk nerf the few non-Bomber things that actually look good so that their iconic goblins can throw bombs without worrying about any other alchemist play "stealing their spotlight".
And this is why when yall write your homebrews, learn from their mistakes. No Quick Bombers, no "auto max roll" nonsense.
so that their iconic goblins can throw bombs without worrying about any other alchemist play "stealing their spotlight".
Bomber is "Alchemist for dummies". The floor is high and the ceiling low. But, especially with the remaster, the non-Bomber Alchemist (I don't see real differences between the 3 other Research Fields in terms of gameplay so I tend to equate them) is doing fine.
It's not 100% clear they work together. Quick Bomber works with bombs, Healing Bombs are elixirs that you can throw "as if it were an alchemical bomb."
I think only willfully stupid GMs wouldn't allow it, so perhaps as many as 1/3.
There are many such aspects of the game were 2 interpretations were possible and the community chose one and it slowly infused inside most tables (especially through PFS). So I'm confident it will be a thing.
On the other hand, I've forbidden the use of Versatile Vials with Quick Bomber. The words are slightly different so I've considered it was not possible (even if Versatile Vials are also Bombs). This decision is clearly based on RAW, I wait to see what the community thinks to see if I should change my mind on that (I have adapted some of my rulings when I've realized RAW was considered inappropriate by most players).
And yet you're basing your entire opinion of the class on a non-RAW interpretation. Compared to the old feat, the new healing bomb does not give elixirs of life the bomb trait, and is thus not a viable item for Quick Bomber. Period.
And yet you're basing your entire opinion of the class on a non-RAW interpretation.
My entire opinion of the class? I don't follow you.
I agreed with Graystone that even if on paper Healing Bombs are not that bad, I don't see a build that will incorporate them as their interaction with MAP is problematic for an attack-based class. So I don't expect I'd have to rule it anyway.
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This is from Pathfinder Society, but:
"There aren’t default rules for a creature choosing to be hit[...], but you can allow an ally to improve their outcome by one degree of success against a willing target or allow the target to worsen the result of their saving throw by one step."
I didn't realize it when I made my first post, but this is from a printed sourcebook. It's from a liminal in the Bestiary 3, p. 143. It's an official optional rule.
I didn't realize it when I made my first post, but this is from a printed sourcebook. It's from a liminal in the Bestiary 3, p. 143. It's an official optional rule.This is from Pathfinder Society, but:
"There aren’t default rules for a creature choosing to be hit[...], but you can allow an ally to improve their outcome by one degree of success against a willing target or allow the target to worsen the result of their saving throw by one step."
It's actually a Gliminal, Bestiary 3, p. 114.
"Violent Healing
There aren't default rules for a creature choosing to be hit (to avoid exploding from a gliminal's healing), but you can allow an ally to improve their outcome by one degree of success against a willing target or allow the target to worsen the result of their saving throw by one step."
My problem is consistency. Totally fine with healing bombs, they really add to the class. But just use the same rules as other bombs.
The "willing" part is odd, is that giant spider "willing" to be firebombed? No, damn-it, likewise, you will take my healing bomb, I'm not asking!
And then just treat splash like splash. Unless you take the Bomber feat, you get the same type of splash on adjacent squares like you do for other bombs. You could end up giving minor heals to enemies.
This really simplifies the rules.