The Who, How, and Why of the Godsrain

[Perpdepog]

I'm surprised nobody's been talking about this, at least not where I've seen. As of the release of Prey for Death, and I believe the first volume of the Curtain Call AP, we've now got a much clearer picture of what's going on with Gorum, and why He Who Walks in Blood is involved in his death. Originally, I was going to post the answers to the questions in the thread's title, but I'm not sure how much of that we're meant to be sharing. If we're not supposed to share this information then I'm sorry, and please take down this thread, but the implications of what's going on are interesting and thought-provoking ones, and I thought folks might like to muse on them here.

If it is cool that we discuss these developments on the boards, I do still ask that people try to spoiler their posts as much as possible, just so that any casual browsers who are planning on playing in games where this mystery is important aren't accidentally spoiled.

[James Jacobs]

I very much advise using spoilers in this thread to talk about the story, since it is some spoiler stuff for the adventure and novel and the like that some folks will prefer to encounter organically, so thank you for not posting the answers in the thread's title.

That said, chat away here! Just again, keep in mind that spoilers are your friend as if in any case where you're talking about an adventure's plot points. This event's bigger than a single adventure, but you should still keep in mind that folks are gonna want to not be spoiled on some of the details.

And THAT said, in coming up with the details as presented in Prey for Death as part of the adventure's outline before actual work started on it, I very much wanted to set things up so that the reasons why and how it happens would be logical, yet also to deliberately leave some things unsaid and have some unexplained still-to-be-resolved elements awaiting further exploration. These aren't "we'll never tell" secrets (like "How did Aroden die?") but aren't going to be answered anytime soon.

Curtain Call in particular is focused on an entirely different set of events associated with Godsrain beyond but parallel to Gorum's fate.

[Perpdepog]

Awesome, thanks for the quick answer, James!

In that spirit, spoilered below are what Prey for Death has to say on Gorum's death. In keeping with James' advice, each section is spoilered individually in case people want to know one thing, but not another. "The Who" is, well, who wants Gorum dead, "The How" is how they achieved it, and "The Why" is the rationale behind the act.

The Who:

Spoiler:

Gorum himself decides he needs to die, and that he must die a hero's death.

The How:

Spoiler:

Death by gigantic red mantis via a trickster goddess. Gorum asks Calistria to help him. He knows he must fall in battle, but also knows that his might is such that he will survive any battle he could conceive of, and his nature will not allow him to simply remove himself. Calistria agrees in exchange for Gorum telling her what lies beneath his armor. His answer, "nothing," she then takes to Achaekek, suggesting Gorum is no true god but an empty shell, planting a seed in Achaekek's mind which blooms into the Blood Mantis eventually felling Our Lord in Iron.

The Why:

Spoiler:

Gorum is troubled by the increasing evil uses of war that he is seeing, and the increasing evil done in his name by his own worshipers. According to the text I've got, Gorum understands that not all battles can, or even should, be won, even though they still should be fought, and that sometimes the strength that makes us better is gained in failure, not in success or the domination that can accompany victory.

My thoughts and feels.

Spoiler:

I love how this plot reinforces the idea that a deity's portfolio is not necessarily their personality, and how this story also gives Gorum much more of a personality. He's not a deity like Sarenrae, who can mess up in the pass and then double down on some other aspects of herself, learning and growing in the process. Gorum, even being battle personified, can feel differently and have an individual outlook on what battle means and how it should be waged, and I think it's really cool and intriguing that his nature and his personality can be in conflict like that. It's also both incredibly cool, and a bit tragic, that Gorum can't or won't see any other way out of the predicament he's in other than to fall in battle. Like, it kind of amazes me how much personality he gets in one page of text, p. 5 of Prey for Death, if someone wants to go looking.
On the more implication-centric side, I'm very curious to see what the fallout of this decision will be. Will there be some kind of backlash against Achaekek for killing a deity because he decided they weren't? Likewise, I wonder if there will be any metaphysical implications of Gorum giving up his position as the God of Battle.

[Evan Tarlton]

Spoiler:

It would be very interesting (for a given value) to see what might happen if the full truth ever got out. Achaekek would not be pleased to learn that he was essentially a pawn. He might even decide that the scales must be balanced, and he can kill gods...

[PossibleCabbage]

The thing I like about this story is that it does underline that Gorum means well, a thing that wasn't especially clear originally. Like there was always the question of why was his citadel in Elysium when he was never the alignment related to that plane (back when we had that).

I'm glad that this was less "he was establishing a forward beachhead" and more a reflection of his desires and his nature not being especially in alignment.

I guess the memorable part of his death was:

Spoiler:

Achaekek isn't supposed to be able to kill Gods. Since anytime anybody brings that up in the future there's going to be a "whatabout Gorum" literally as long as Achaekek is around. The fact that Achaekek was able to do it because he believed Gorum was an imposter leads one to wonder what other divine beings will be judged as unworthy and for what reasons. It will be interesting to find out if the Red Mantis god comes to regret his actions as cracking open Gorum is likely going to spread enough Godstuff all over that the veracity of his divinity is at least plausible.

[Perpdepog]

There is also the issue with Achaekek that

Spoiler:

he sets a really dangerous precedent, either for himself or others, to determine what is and is not considered "true" divinity. I think it's been said that Divine Mysteries would also be shedding some light on this subject, and now I'm wondering if this whole issue isn't part of why.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Perpdepog wrote:

The Who: ** spoiler omitted **

The How: ** spoiler omitted **
The Why: ** spoiler omitted **

Somebody get Raven Black in here... I don't remember precisely but I have a feeling he called this one, as well! XD

[Perpdepog]

You know, the more I think on this, the more I think Gorum would be happy with the outcome.

Spoiler:

He gets to spread battle everywhere, like he wants, and his essence will hopefully empower lots of new demi-divine or fully divine beings linked to war and battle. Each shard of his power becomes a new banner for the faithful to flock around, solving the issue with him disliking the evil and unbecoming behavior done in his name.

[Gisher]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

The Who: ** spoiler omitted **

The How: ** spoiler omitted **
The Why: ** spoiler omitted **

Somebody get Raven Black in here... I don't remember precisely but I have a feeling he called this one, as well! XD

It looks like I called part of it, too. :)

[William Ronald]

Perpdepog wrote:

You know, the more I think on this, the more I think Gorum would be happy with the outcome. ** spoiler omitted **

Also,

Spoiler:

Gorum may hope that some of them can address the problem he saw with his followers from the beginning, perhaps teaching them that there is not a shame in defeat and that a defeat can ultimately lead to victory. It is perhaps ironic that the only outcome Gorum could see was for him to suffer defeat rather than change.

I suspect that we will learn more about what happens as we see new products that will likely offer their own perspectives. I imagine that the information on what happened will be coming out over this year, and that we will see multiple interpretations of the events of the Godsrain.

[Kevin Mack]

Maybe the odd one out but wasent a big fan of how it went down

prey for death:

Okay the set up itself is fine but the execution did not work for me since I thought the plan he wanted was die in glorious battle whereas the result was shanked from behind while distracted.

[PossibleCabbage]

Kevin Mack wrote:

Maybe the odd one out but wasent a big fan of how it went down

** spoiler omitted **

I think two things stand out about Gorum's death that make it work for what he wanted (but maybe not how he wanted it).

Spoiler:

1. He got taken out by something significantly bigger, meaner, and nastier than him which is normally the way things work in battle. Achaekek is ancient (some sources put him as one of the original set of Gods) and has at various points embodied "natural disasters" and "monsters" two things soldiers are largely ineffective against.

2. Achaekek assassinating a god is a thing that is not supposed to be able to happen. Now every deity has that little trace of doubt as in "am I next?" So Gorum's fate is going to loom large at the upper echelons of power. There's also the whole "what is going to happen next" bit which is probably just going to further establish the legend of Gorum.

But probably the "he wants to make amends for the degree to which war is used to further evil ends" is going to be paid off in what comes later.

[Morhek]

I like to think the Godsrain Prophecy for Gorum just reads:

Wrath of Immortals:

"Yea, fair Calistria did once ask how it is that war hath but one god, when all wars hath two sides or more. And lo! did Gorum speak anon, "let us fix that.""

[CastleDour]

I will be EXTREMELY disappointed if there is no revenge against Akaechek by other gods for what he did to Gorum.

The good aligned gods absolutely need to deal with him after he unilaterally caused a massive catastrophe and sparked the War of Immortals.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Hmm... You know, I feel like I would be quite disappointed in any capital-G Good Gods who decided for some reason to opt for punitive justice against the tool in a cosmic assisted suicide. I could see somebody wanting to take it out on Achaekek, but I hope it's none of the deities I consider generally wise or benevolent because that would make no sense to me.

Thing is, I don't think we actually know what causes the War yet beyond the ignition point. Right now it seems the god most directly responsible is actually already dead--and unless Gorum knew that his death would absolutely rock the heavens and shake the foundations of the cosmos, I feel like the responsibility is a lot more shared, and probably very little of it should actually fall on the god of assassins being tricked into killing somebody he's not supposed to. Certainly if any living god can claim the most responsibility it will have to be Calistria for tricking Achaekek, but I suspect more realistically the whole war is a series of events that capitulate out of control.

If I were to guess one or two steps in, I suspect some deity or deities do seek to hold Achaekek responsible, but Grandmother Spider stands up for him, whether because she realises he was only a tool, because he's her brother, or just because she opposes the gods on principle. Competing interests soon enter into it and the plot becomes impossible to track, but I'm sure we'll see a lot more when the time comes.

[Zoken44]

Spoiler:

Given all of that, it makes perfect sense for Arazni to step up and take his place as the deity of war. Arazni who lost. Who suffered for her loss. Arazni's domain is not glorious combat... she is truly one who knows war in it's ugliest forms, She does not revel in destruction, or expect to be hailed as a conquering hero. she fights for her own freedom, and thus her cause is always just.

[CastleDour]

OK but what's to stop him from gaining a taste for the blood of gods? Or being tricked into killing Torag or Iomadae next? Him even being able to kill Gorum from behind, without warning, is a huge deal. Why would the gods all be aware he was tricked?

It's like someone invented nukes in this universe. There HAS to be a reaction. You don't just let an evil god start killing gods, you dish out punishment.

[Perpdepog]

As a reminder, the event still hasn't fully released. Spoiler tag your posts for anyone interested in roaming through the thread, people, please and thank you.

[CorvusMask]

Perpdepog wrote:

The Why: ** spoiler omitted **

I feel like this part isn't fully accurate:

The "evil" thing is only mentioned in one off handed sentence in entire page and Gorum allows CE worshippers and not CG. It felt like main motivation really was because Gorum believes "great loss will inspire greater strength", so he thinks through his loss everyone will become stronger as result.

I feel like the sentence itself is writers over explaining into "Gorum is CN and not CE" part, when it is simple as "Gorum doesn't really care about good or evil, just about conflict and sides clashing and becoming stronger through conflict".

[PossibleCabbage]

RE: War and Evil.

One of the premises of Gorum is that he wants to inspire people to stand up and fight against those who are oppressing them. When Gorum looks around and sees more of his adherents doing the "oppression" thing than the "fighting against oppression" thing, then he's going to have something to think about. Like is this entire program sensible when he's advocating his followers fighting his other group of followers, and on and on forever? Something is broken here.

[keftiu]

Zoken44 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Arazni isn't the new god of war. Her ascension to the Core 20 does not involve taking over any of Gorum's interests.