The Who, How, and Why of the Godsrain

[Perpdepog]

I'm surprised nobody's been talking about this, at least not where I've seen. As of the release of Prey for Death, and I believe the first volume of the Curtain Call AP, we've now got a much clearer picture of what's going on with Gorum, and why He Who Walks in Blood is involved in his death. Originally, I was going to post the answers to the questions in the thread's title, but I'm not sure how much of that we're meant to be sharing. If we're not supposed to share this information then I'm sorry, and please take down this thread, but the implications of what's going on are interesting and thought-provoking ones, and I thought folks might like to muse on them here.

If it is cool that we discuss these developments on the boards, I do still ask that people try to spoiler their posts as much as possible, just so that any casual browsers who are planning on playing in games where this mystery is important aren't accidentally spoiled.

[James Jacobs]

I very much advise using spoilers in this thread to talk about the story, since it is some spoiler stuff for the adventure and novel and the like that some folks will prefer to encounter organically, so thank you for not posting the answers in the thread's title.

That said, chat away here! Just again, keep in mind that spoilers are your friend as if in any case where you're talking about an adventure's plot points. This event's bigger than a single adventure, but you should still keep in mind that folks are gonna want to not be spoiled on some of the details.

And THAT said, in coming up with the details as presented in Prey for Death as part of the adventure's outline before actual work started on it, I very much wanted to set things up so that the reasons why and how it happens would be logical, yet also to deliberately leave some things unsaid and have some unexplained still-to-be-resolved elements awaiting further exploration. These aren't "we'll never tell" secrets (like "How did Aroden die?") but aren't going to be answered anytime soon.

Curtain Call in particular is focused on an entirely different set of events associated with Godsrain beyond but parallel to Gorum's fate.

[Perpdepog]

Awesome, thanks for the quick answer, James!

In that spirit, spoilered below are what Prey for Death has to say on Gorum's death. In keeping with James' advice, each section is spoilered individually in case people want to know one thing, but not another. "The Who" is, well, who wants Gorum dead, "The How" is how they achieved it, and "The Why" is the rationale behind the act.

The Who:

Spoiler:

Gorum himself decides he needs to die, and that he must die a hero's death.

The How:

Spoiler:

Death by gigantic red mantis via a trickster goddess. Gorum asks Calistria to help him. He knows he must fall in battle, but also knows that his might is such that he will survive any battle he could conceive of, and his nature will not allow him to simply remove himself. Calistria agrees in exchange for Gorum telling her what lies beneath his armor. His answer, "nothing," she then takes to Achaekek, suggesting Gorum is no true god but an empty shell, planting a seed in Achaekek's mind which blooms into the Blood Mantis eventually felling Our Lord in Iron.

The Why:

Spoiler:

Gorum is troubled by the increasing evil uses of war that he is seeing, and the increasing evil done in his name by his own worshipers. According to the text I've got, Gorum understands that not all battles can, or even should, be won, even though they still should be fought, and that sometimes the strength that makes us better is gained in failure, not in success or the domination that can accompany victory.

My thoughts and feels.

Spoiler:

I love how this plot reinforces the idea that a deity's portfolio is not necessarily their personality, and how this story also gives Gorum much more of a personality. He's not a deity like Sarenrae, who can mess up in the pass and then double down on some other aspects of herself, learning and growing in the process. Gorum, even being battle personified, can feel differently and have an individual outlook on what battle means and how it should be waged, and I think it's really cool and intriguing that his nature and his personality can be in conflict like that. It's also both incredibly cool, and a bit tragic, that Gorum can't or won't see any other way out of the predicament he's in other than to fall in battle. Like, it kind of amazes me how much personality he gets in one page of text, p. 5 of Prey for Death, if someone wants to go looking.
On the more implication-centric side, I'm very curious to see what the fallout of this decision will be. Will there be some kind of backlash against Achaekek for killing a deity because he decided they weren't? Likewise, I wonder if there will be any metaphysical implications of Gorum giving up his position as the God of Battle.

[Evan Tarlton]

Spoiler:

It would be very interesting (for a given value) to see what might happen if the full truth ever got out. Achaekek would not be pleased to learn that he was essentially a pawn. He might even decide that the scales must be balanced, and he can kill gods...

[PossibleCabbage]

The thing I like about this story is that it does underline that Gorum means well, a thing that wasn't especially clear originally. Like there was always the question of why was his citadel in Elysium when he was never the alignment related to that plane (back when we had that).

I'm glad that this was less "he was establishing a forward beachhead" and more a reflection of his desires and his nature not being especially in alignment.

I guess the memorable part of his death was:

Spoiler:

Achaekek isn't supposed to be able to kill Gods. Since anytime anybody brings that up in the future there's going to be a "whatabout Gorum" literally as long as Achaekek is around. The fact that Achaekek was able to do it because he believed Gorum was an imposter leads one to wonder what other divine beings will be judged as unworthy and for what reasons. It will be interesting to find out if the Red Mantis god comes to regret his actions as cracking open Gorum is likely going to spread enough Godstuff all over that the veracity of his divinity is at least plausible.

[Perpdepog]

There is also the issue with Achaekek that

Spoiler:

he sets a really dangerous precedent, either for himself or others, to determine what is and is not considered "true" divinity. I think it's been said that Divine Mysteries would also be shedding some light on this subject, and now I'm wondering if this whole issue isn't part of why.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Perpdepog wrote:

The Who: ** spoiler omitted **

The How: ** spoiler omitted **
The Why: ** spoiler omitted **

Somebody get Raven Black in here... I don't remember precisely but I have a feeling he called this one, as well! XD

[Perpdepog]

You know, the more I think on this, the more I think Gorum would be happy with the outcome.

Spoiler:

He gets to spread battle everywhere, like he wants, and his essence will hopefully empower lots of new demi-divine or fully divine beings linked to war and battle. Each shard of his power becomes a new banner for the faithful to flock around, solving the issue with him disliking the evil and unbecoming behavior done in his name.

[Gisher]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

The Who: ** spoiler omitted **

The How: ** spoiler omitted **
The Why: ** spoiler omitted **

Somebody get Raven Black in here... I don't remember precisely but I have a feeling he called this one, as well! XD

It looks like I called part of it, too. :)

[William Ronald]

Perpdepog wrote:

You know, the more I think on this, the more I think Gorum would be happy with the outcome. ** spoiler omitted **

Also,

Spoiler:

Gorum may hope that some of them can address the problem he saw with his followers from the beginning, perhaps teaching them that there is not a shame in defeat and that a defeat can ultimately lead to victory. It is perhaps ironic that the only outcome Gorum could see was for him to suffer defeat rather than change.

I suspect that we will learn more about what happens as we see new products that will likely offer their own perspectives. I imagine that the information on what happened will be coming out over this year, and that we will see multiple interpretations of the events of the Godsrain.

[Kevin Mack]

Maybe the odd one out but wasent a big fan of how it went down

prey for death:

Okay the set up itself is fine but the execution did not work for me since I thought the plan he wanted was die in glorious battle whereas the result was shanked from behind while distracted.

[PossibleCabbage]

Kevin Mack wrote:

Maybe the odd one out but wasent a big fan of how it went down

** spoiler omitted **

I think two things stand out about Gorum's death that make it work for what he wanted (but maybe not how he wanted it).

Spoiler:

1. He got taken out by something significantly bigger, meaner, and nastier than him which is normally the way things work in battle. Achaekek is ancient (some sources put him as one of the original set of Gods) and has at various points embodied "natural disasters" and "monsters" two things soldiers are largely ineffective against.

2. Achaekek assassinating a god is a thing that is not supposed to be able to happen. Now every deity has that little trace of doubt as in "am I next?" So Gorum's fate is going to loom large at the upper echelons of power. There's also the whole "what is going to happen next" bit which is probably just going to further establish the legend of Gorum.

But probably the "he wants to make amends for the degree to which war is used to further evil ends" is going to be paid off in what comes later.

[Morhek]

I like to think the Godsrain Prophecy for Gorum just reads:

Wrath of Immortals:

"Yea, fair Calistria did once ask how it is that war hath but one god, when all wars hath two sides or more. And lo! did Gorum speak anon, "let us fix that.""

[CastleDour]

I will be EXTREMELY disappointed if there is no revenge against Akaechek by other gods for what he did to Gorum.

The good aligned gods absolutely need to deal with him after he unilaterally caused a massive catastrophe and sparked the War of Immortals.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Hmm... You know, I feel like I would be quite disappointed in any capital-G Good Gods who decided for some reason to opt for punitive justice against the tool in a cosmic assisted suicide. I could see somebody wanting to take it out on Achaekek, but I hope it's none of the deities I consider generally wise or benevolent because that would make no sense to me.

Thing is, I don't think we actually know what causes the War yet beyond the ignition point. Right now it seems the god most directly responsible is actually already dead--and unless Gorum knew that his death would absolutely rock the heavens and shake the foundations of the cosmos, I feel like the responsibility is a lot more shared, and probably very little of it should actually fall on the god of assassins being tricked into killing somebody he's not supposed to. Certainly if any living god can claim the most responsibility it will have to be Calistria for tricking Achaekek, but I suspect more realistically the whole war is a series of events that capitulate out of control.

If I were to guess one or two steps in, I suspect some deity or deities do seek to hold Achaekek responsible, but Grandmother Spider stands up for him, whether because she realises he was only a tool, because he's her brother, or just because she opposes the gods on principle. Competing interests soon enter into it and the plot becomes impossible to track, but I'm sure we'll see a lot more when the time comes.

[Zoken44]

Spoiler:

Given all of that, it makes perfect sense for Arazni to step up and take his place as the deity of war. Arazni who lost. Who suffered for her loss. Arazni's domain is not glorious combat... she is truly one who knows war in it's ugliest forms, She does not revel in destruction, or expect to be hailed as a conquering hero. she fights for her own freedom, and thus her cause is always just.

[CastleDour]

OK but what's to stop him from gaining a taste for the blood of gods? Or being tricked into killing Torag or Iomadae next? Him even being able to kill Gorum from behind, without warning, is a huge deal. Why would the gods all be aware he was tricked?

It's like someone invented nukes in this universe. There HAS to be a reaction. You don't just let an evil god start killing gods, you dish out punishment.

[Perpdepog]

As a reminder, the event still hasn't fully released. Spoiler tag your posts for anyone interested in roaming through the thread, people, please and thank you.

[CorvusMask]

Perpdepog wrote:

The Why: ** spoiler omitted **

I feel like this part isn't fully accurate:

The "evil" thing is only mentioned in one off handed sentence in entire page and Gorum allows CE worshippers and not CG. It felt like main motivation really was because Gorum believes "great loss will inspire greater strength", so he thinks through his loss everyone will become stronger as result.

I feel like the sentence itself is writers over explaining into "Gorum is CN and not CE" part, when it is simple as "Gorum doesn't really care about good or evil, just about conflict and sides clashing and becoming stronger through conflict".

[PossibleCabbage]

RE: War and Evil.

One of the premises of Gorum is that he wants to inspire people to stand up and fight against those who are oppressing them. When Gorum looks around and sees more of his adherents doing the "oppression" thing than the "fighting against oppression" thing, then he's going to have something to think about. Like is this entire program sensible when he's advocating his followers fighting his other group of followers, and on and on forever? Something is broken here.

[keftiu]

Zoken44 wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Arazni isn't the new god of war. Her ascension to the Core 20 does not involve taking over any of Gorum's interests.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

CastleDour wrote:

OK but what's to stop him from gaining a taste for the blood of gods? Or being tricked into killing Torag or Iomadae next? Him even being able to kill Gorum from behind, without warning, is a huge deal. Why would the gods all be aware he was tricked?

It's like someone invented nukes in this universe. There HAS to be a reaction. You don't just let an evil god start killing gods, you dish out punishment.

Well, certainly there has to be a reaction. A whole bunch of reactions, in fact. How else did we think this event was going to start a war? I'm just saying I would think less of any supposedly wise and goodly deity whose immediate reaction was to jump to punishment--thats more of a lawful or lawful evil domain, if we still had alignment.

It doesnt even really matter that he's (formerly known as) evil--more significantly is that he's supposed to be an assassin who doesnt kill true deities. I would expect finding out how/why it might have happened to be the top priority of any wise deity, right after making sure he's not actually going on a rampage, and perhaps detaining him, none of which requires inflicting preemptive punitive justice.

OTOH, as i already said, I fully expect this to start a whole drama bomb anyway, because I don't expect the wiser and more level headed deities to get the final say on what happens to Achaekek. Maybe Granny Spider objects on principle to detaining Achae, maybe that starts a full on brawl among some deities, maybe Calistria sees what a mess this turned out to be and decides not to take credit/explain. There are more than enough hotheaded and foolish deities to be jumping to conclusions, and there's gently of level-headed deities who might call for Achaekek's execution as it serves their needs, I just hope that none of the deities I respect have the gut reaction to demand revenge without investigation or trial. They'll be dragged into the war by fools and ambition, obviously, but I can't respect anyone that champs at the bit to punish somebody without bothering to uncover what would be revealed as an elaborate assisted suicide.

[CorvusMask]

Just to clarify, the idea that Achaekek literally can't do it is in 3.5 lore which is mostly outdated. Most of 1e references I can find seem to more of imply that its personal code kind of thing rather than him literally being unable to do it.

So still alarming, but its not matter of "how"

[Morhek]

At the very least, every single Ascended has a damn good reason to wonder if they're next on Achaekek's list, and I'm sure there are more than a few Empyreal Lords, Psychopomp Ushers, Demon Lords, and so on wondering the exact same thing, whether Achaekek will decide that anything short of the Core Twenty suddenly needs to go.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

CorvusMask wrote:

Just to clarify, the idea that Achaekek literally can't do it is in 3.5 lore which is mostly outdated. Most of 1e references I can find seem to more of imply that its personal code kind of thing rather than him literally being unable to do it.

So still alarming, but its not matter of "how"

Yeah, I was thought Achaekek's shtick was more a pattern of behavior the Red Mantis Assassins assigned meaning to rather than an explicit code, if only because he never really communicates with anyone, leading some to actually question the extent of his sapience, whether he thought like people and most other gods do or if he operated solely on instinct more like a kaiju with a specific favored prey. The implication was the Red Mantis' worship was based around emulating Achaekek himself rather than him giving Commandments to them.

I'd often wondered if the "is Achaekek actually sapient or not?" debate was a bit of mystique Achaekek was deliberately cultivating to make himself seem more like an impartial and implacable force rather than someone who could be persuaded, directed, and most importantly tricked. And now after Pray for Death's events that illusion is gone, and if I remember correctly, Achaekek is PISSED about that...

[PossibleCabbage]

I feel like "The God of War" is more uniquely vulnerable to end up "being ended with violence" since that's the fate that befalls most warriors. Achaekek would have a much harder time taking out Sarenrae (because suns die in a different way) or Arazni (because she's literally the God of Survivors.)

The nature of Gods is that they're more governed by stories than rules, so thematic resonance matters!

[Cori Marie]

Sarenrae is the god of the sun, she is not the sun itself. There are also several other sun deities in the setting.

[Jerdane]

Cori Marie wrote:

Sarenrae is the god of the sun, she is not the sun itself. There are also several other sun deities in the setting.

True, though given that she at least represents the sun in some sense it would be reasonable that she might be more easily killed in a way that would suit a sun more than a warrior. Like, maybe she takes on too many responsibilities or power and she explodes (like a supernova) or collapses in on herself (like a black hole), or maybe she uses up her reserves of strength and becomes bloated and powerless (like a main sequence star). None of those things sound like something that Achaekek would be good at, so Sarenrae might do OK against him.

[CorvusMask]

CorvusMask wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

The Why: ** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

Replying to myself here because I forgot to note another thing that casts doubt on the idea:

You are explicitly assassinating evil Gorum worshiping warlord in Prey for Death who is favored by Gorum to such an extend that he has major boon of Gorum and he sends his herald to avenge him.

So its really hard to buy idea that Gorum is opposed to evil to such extend he would orchestrate his own death over it.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

It seems like a lot of people have the impression that Gorum's suicide is because he doesn't want evil worshippers. This is at odds with the story as I understood it, and although I don't have a copy of that story in front of me, I wonder if that's not a potential source of confusion.

Gorum, under the prescripts of alignment as they existed prior to the remaster, is Chaotic. He is neither good nor evil, which can be seen both as not caring between one or the other (obviously offers power to both holy amd unholy worshippers) but also should be taken to mean that he doesn't particularly favour or want to belong to one side, either. If Gorum is War, then War is not Evil, just Chaos, yet there is a rot in his church. To many, War is Evil, and this includes a large number of his worshippers who drag War further away from the purity of violent struggle and deeper into atrocity. He didn't care that he had evil worshippers, he cared that the way the long arm of history was going, soon he wouldn't have anything but evil worshippers. Soon War would be evil, and either he would join it, or be standing there at odds with his own portfolio.

I'll grant, I don't know what specifically he hoped to achieve by taking himself out of the picture... it might be he simply decided he'd rather die a hero than live long enough to become the villain etc. Maybe he saw the way the wind was blowing and decided to check out early, or maybe this is part of some 5D chess strategy where his death inspires enough non-evil war gods to make enough noise that the net position of war remains firmly a broad spectrum domain

[CorvusMask]

confusion is understandable:

Paragraphs starts and ends with commenting on that Gorum isn't evil, but some see his glorious existence as justification for war as tool of evil to grow more evil. However it just doesn't really gel with idea that Gorum particularly dislikes evil, as says he is playing favorites with worshiper who is CE in the conqueror warlord way, it seems more of that 1) Gorum has decided his time has come 2) he believes his death will be a loss that inspires greater strength to people. 3) he seems to be dismayed that people think war is all about just victories because Gorum doesn't lose battles. So presumably his plan IS that he wants the ensuing conflict to happen so that everyone is stronger after it and thus conflict is more "pure" perhaps?

Like... It seems to me that Gorum's motivation is his philosophy behind what war and conflict is.

Here I'm exiting out of spoiler tags to note that I believe that in order to understand full truth, you need to read Gorum's deity articles on what his views are.

So based on Inner Sea Gods:

"The clash of sword on shield is my song. I am in your armor, your blade. Strike at your foes and I will guide your hand, for I thirst only for battle.
—Gorumskagat IV"

his aphorism "Better to Die a Warrior Than Live a Coward",

his relations with other faiths "but still feels a kinship with the other god in their mutual love of warlike power and indifference to its ethics. He even feels some admiration for Nethys’s strategic prowess. There is no nuance or mitigating factor, however, for the contempt he feels for Norgorber, as assassination and murder are for cowards. He acknowledges commonalities with Szuriel, Horseman of War, as both encourage battle in general, but primarily, he sees the Horseman as a rival: Gorum’s role is to stoke the hearts of mortals so they embrace the glory of war with enthusiasm and bloodlust, whereas the Horseman wants mortals to accept oblivion and cold, murderous intent."

"Though claimed by half-orcs, humans, and orcs as one of their own, the god cares nothing for these divisions except insofar as they relate to battle and strife. He believes in strength and power, the verdict of the sword, and the music of clashing iron. He does not favor good or evil, and the only right he confers upon mortals is the right to fight for their next breath. As long as people struggle against themselves and each other, Gorum’s teachings live on. The greatest moments in a Gorumite’s life are those spent locked in close combat, with every moment threatening annihilation—all else is dull and dreary."

"-, Gorum is the excitement, battle-lust, and brutality of combat. He is indifferent to whether his followers are knights in plate mail, goblins wielding dogslicers, or children armed with table knives—anyone willing to put up a fight, no matter how pathetic or pointless, is worth swinging at. He does not condone the wild slaughter of innocents and invalids, for such acts are the parlance of murderers and butchers, not of warriors. Likewise, he can be merciful, giving quarter to those who surrender, but he is quick to slay any who pretend to submit in the hope of striking while the superior opponent is unaware, and those who refuse to fight at all are barely worth a scornful beheading."

"It is more pleasing to Gorum to see a soldier fight a score of battles in his lifetime than die in the first, and if compromises or truces mean warriors live on to fight again, he supports diplomacy over seeing every soldier fight to a pointless death, but he doesn’t care for negotiations and quickly loses interest when tempers cool and blades are sheathed. Battles of words and wits tire him, not because he lacks the intellect for them, but because he finds them as pointless and unsatisfying as crushing ants—true challenges are those where lives are on the line and a moment’s hesitation can mean blood and pain. As good and evil have little meaning for him, he may fight demons one day and noble dragons another, just to challenge himself and test his own mettle. Among other deities, Gorum is seen as warrior with few equals, but prone to rage and destruction when he grows bored."

My thesis is thus: Gorum isn't doing this out of atonement or disgust with evil. Its because he believes war's pure bloodlust and glory is being corrupted for other purposes other than warriors clashing against each other. He wants war for sake of war, no ulterior motives, because by winning and losing, warriors gain more strength and glory and their next clash is even more glorious. Problem Gorum was having that he didn't want to obviously do suicidal attack on someone who could kill him, but nobody was foolish enough to try to challenge him. So as result, he is undefeated champion of war and people don't understand the strength gained through loss. So he wanted to orchestrate himself that fight to the glorious final death he wanted.

I do have one other thing to note and this time for curtain's call:

"all worshippers of Gorum in particular feel a particularly strange combination of almost overwhelming relief and a pressing need to “finish up what needs finishing up.”"

[The Raven Black]

I wonder if Achaekek knew about what was in the armor (aka Nothing) and tried to kill it before it grew into true divinity.

I am not so sure he was utterly blindsided by Calistria's trickery.

After all we are talking about one of the primordial deities who spent the last 10 000 years rebuilding his mind back from pure savagery.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

The Raven Black wrote:

I wonder if Achaekek knew about what was in the armor (aka Nothing) and tried to kill it before it grew into true divinity.

I am not so sure he was utterly blindsided by Calistria's trickery.

After all we are talking about one of the primordial deities who spent the last 10 000 years rebuilding his mind back from pure savagery.

Achae being "tricked" but having it be because he sensed something wrong thanks to Calistria pointing his attention at Gorum would certainly make for an interesting story and add some colour to the course of events... we'll have to see! Or maybe just headcanon if this happens to be intentionally left as a divine mystery