Melee Occultist, To Trappings or not to Trappings...?


Advice


So, My group are soft prepping for our next campaign and we have started making characters, 25 point buy (First time we are not rolling for stats) and I'm considering finally trying an Occultist... Going Half Elf for the Elf FCB.

I want to make a good melee occultist who fights on the frontlines but I cant decide if I should build for Trappings of the Warrior to get more BAB and thus hit better and get extra attacks sooner, Or if I should skip Trappings giving me more freedom in what Implements I pick up...

What are people's opionions on Trappings or no Trappings for a melee occultist?


Trappings is obviously good but not a super priority imo. it becomes better the higher your total level but that also means it's okay to delay it to lv 10 or 14 (if you're even going that far).

I've seen rly good melee reliquarian builds taking a companion with Animal or that snake domain. take transmutation and then choose the fun implements instead of rusning trappings

The Exchange

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My advice would be to wait on Trappings. If you're a frontliner, you are likely going to take Abjuration and Transmutation Implements first. So pick a sword and shield. Keep picking up additional implement schools until you say "eh, I don't really feel like adding a new school is an improvement on learning more abjuration or conjuration spells known." That's when you take the Panoply. Level 10, most likely.


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For a front-liner, other implement schools you will probably find useful after Abjuration/shield (Aegis focus power, at least) and Transmutation/weapon (Quickness and Mind Over Gravity, at least; possibly Size Alteration, as well) include (IMO): Divination (the passive benefits of Third Eye are amazing after 7th level if you can afford the mental focus, as is the Sudden Insight bonus on attack rolls; Danger Sight is nice for saves), Illusion (access to spells such as mirror image; Distortion for the passive miss chance), and possibly Conjuration (cure spells mostly; possibly Flesh Mend and/or Mind Steed [if branching to mounted combat; better if going Abjuration/buckler and Transmutation/bow for a mounted archer]).


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I'm surprised, most of these conversations are usually dominated by people talking about how amazing Trappings is. It's good, but as everyone here has said, it isn't necessary.

For reference, at level 6 your Transmutation Implement is giving you +4 Strength, and adding +2 worth of enchantments to your weapon. If we assume you go +1 Bane and include the bonuses from your +4 STR that's +5 to hit and 2d6+5 bonus damage (2d6+6 if you're 2-handing your weapon). Thr Trappings panoply would be giving you +2 to hit. Now of course it would also be givong you a bonus attack at -5 (or -3 compared to where you are right now) but the majority of your bonuses are coming from Transmutation anyway.

Obviously if you're playing a melee Occultist you want the Transmutation Implement, and I recommend a good defensive Implement to go with it as well. Abjuration is the obvious choice, but Illusion, Necromancy or Divination can work as well if you prefer them. I'm also a big fan of the Conjuration Implement's Side Step power, it makes a big difference to your ability to position yourself.

When I started playing an Occultist I had just read a guide to playing Reach Clerics, and I have to say that everything in that guide seemed to apply to the Occultist as well. You have a ton of standard-action powers and spells, and using a reach weapon allows you to capitalise on your weaponry while still using them. Also, unlike the Cleric you have an absolutely phenomenal combat buff (Lwgacy Weapon) which makes more attacks with 1 weapon Much more potent, so generating AoOs is an excellent way to go. 12 DEX is easily enough to make Combat Reflexes worthwhile, so if you want to keep your DEX low it's still going to work for you.

My Occultist only got to level 8 (I really hope we get back to that gsme some day) but she was my favourite character ever. She only had 14 STR, the only combat feat she had was Combat Reflexes, and she was very capable as the only front-line character in the party. I would very much recommend making INT your primary stat, and STR your secondary as the Occultist is easily strong enough to manage with that spread.


When Trappings of the Warrior is a real force multiplier it's when increasing your BAB to a full martial starts netting you extra attacks (onto which you can add all that good stuff from the transmutation implement.) So it's definitely not something you want in your first 3 implements, but you start thinking about it for your fourth implement or fifth.


MrCharisma wrote:

...

For reference, at level 6 your Transmutation Implement is giving you +4 Strength, and adding +2 worth of enchantments to your weapon. ...

And people ask me why I ban the occult classes.

A level 6 fighter\ ranger \barbarian would have to pay out of pocket those +4 str ,+2 to weapon. (and a fighter who pick the advanced weapon training would be at +1 unless he pay for them gloves).

not going into having spells and bonuses to make them on per the melee guys to boot.


Thanks everyone! I was considering possibly going with a spear (And once I get the feat for it, Add a shield) So I'd have reach. Transmutation I have picked up, But I cant decide if I should pick up Conjuration, Illusion or Abjuration for my second implement... I'm considering Conjuration to have some backup healing just in case it is needed...

The Exchange

zza ni wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:

...

For reference, at level 6 your Transmutation Implement is giving you +4 Strength, and adding +2 worth of enchantments to your weapon. ...

And people ask me why I ban the occult classes.

A level 6 fighter\ ranger \barbarian would have to pay out of pocket those +4 str ,+2 to weapon. (and a fighter who pick the advanced weapon training would be at +1 unless he pay for them gloves).

not going into having spells and bonuses to make them on per the melee guys to boot.

There are some caveats to the occultist, of course. Using the ability to add +2 of enchantments takes a standard action to activate and only lasts 1 minute. So there's the first round of combat gone. That +4 strength requires 6 points of mental focus. If the occultist wants a +2 resistance bonus from the abjuration school that's another 4 points. Still more for every other implement school. And of course if he only invests 6 points in the transmutation implement, then when he spends a point to activate the Legacy Weapon ability his strength bonus drops to +2. A 6th-level occultist only has 6+Int points of mental focus.

All of which is to say that even a melee-focused occultist has no choice but to invest heavily in Intelligence, which reduces the amount of points they can put in physical stats in the first place. The Extra Mental Focus feat can only be taken once. And is, you know, a feat you have to spend. (Elf and halfling FCBs do help a fair amount.) When it comes to spells they are even more constrained than other spontaneous classes. When you dig really deep, the occult classes are pretty well balanced.

Now, banning occult classes because they are too complicated? That's totally reasonable. Not only is it a third type of spellcasting (occult) with its own rules to learn, but many of the balance factors are sneaky and may not be obvious. The occultist immediately looks like a good melee combatant but needs buff rounds to really power up and will gradually drop off in effectiveness as the day goes on and he spends his invested focus and his resonant powers reduce in strength. The mesmerist can look "meh" until you start analyzing what a typical combat round looks like compared to a bard or witch. The kineticist has one ability that is often misread that makes it look WAY more powerful than it actually is.

Spoiler:
Infusion Specialization only reduces the cost of the infusions applied to a blast. It doesn't directly reduce the total cost of the blast, even if there are infusions applied.

Even if we think that's clear, it's not. Just look at the huge number of threads on these boards where people misunderstand.


Belafon wrote:
That +4 strength requires 6 points of mental focus. If the occultist wants a +2 resistance bonus from the abjuration school that's another 4 points. Still more for every other implement school. And of course if he only invests 6 points in the transmutation implement, then when he spends a point to activate the Legacy Weapon ability his strength bonus drops to +2. A 6th-level occultist only has 6+Int points of mental focus.

I agree with most everything in the above post, but resonant power does not work as indicated:

Occultist Mental Focus (Su):

"Once mental focus is invested inside an implement, the implement gains the resonant power of its implement school (see page 50), and the occultist can expend the mental focus stored in the implement to activate the associated focus powers he knows. If a resonant power grants a bonus that varies based on the amount of mental focus invested in the implement, the bonus is determined when the focus is invested, and is not reduced or altered by expending the mental focus invested in the item. Once all of the mental focus in an implement has been expended, it loses its resonant power until mental focus is once again invested in the implement."

So in the example referenced, the 6th+ level occultist that invested 6 mental focus in his transmutation implement would not lose ANY of his +4 STR enhancement bonus until ALL six points of his invested transmutation implement focus had been expended.

INT is still important to the Occultist (especially for increasing mental focus). However, while going beyond 16 INT is definitely beneficial, it is not necessary for all Occultists, especially martially focused ones.

The Exchange

Purple worm, you are correct. I retract that part of my statement and double down on "occult classes are complicated."


they are a study in careful reading and interactions.

but hey, learning from your chat


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Merellin wrote:
Thanks everyone! I was considering possibly going with a spear (And once I get the feat for it, Add a shield) So I'd have reach. Transmutation I have picked up, But I cant decide if I should pick up Conjuration, Illusion or Abjuration for my second implement... I'm considering Conjuration to have some backup healing just in case it is needed...

The first thing to realise is that you get two implements at level 1, and then a third Implement at level 2. So really you get to pick three Implements to have for the early-game, you just have to get past level 1 to have all of them.

So rather than "Which one of these three archetypes do I want?" the question could change to "Which one of these three archetypes do I NOT want?" (or "Which one can wait till level 6?" if you plan on getting all of them eventually).

Personally I've played with Abjuration and Conjuration, and I think they're both great. I haven't played with Illusion, but it has some strong options.

I thoroughly recommend a defensive Implement early, and between these three archetypes Abjuration is the obvious choice. The Occultist is a d8HD class, and if you're going into melee you'll want STR and INT (or DEX and INT), so you won't be able to pump your CON for HP. You also lack any bonus feats which makes Toughness a bit more expensive, and your FCB is so incredibly powerful that you really don't want to get your extra HP there either. TLDR: You're a bit fragile. I made incredibly good use of the swift-action defensive powers here, and honestly the Shield spell is a good chunk of AC without having to spend feats on Shield Brace. Also, +4 AC from your shield is way stronger than anything you get early game. I think Abjuration is a strong option, and particularly strong in the early game.

Conjuration has summoning, healing and teleportation, all of which are strong options to have available. In the early game it gives you access to CLW wands, but remember that as an Occultist you add 1/2 your level to UMD checks, and with something like the PRAGMATIC ACTIVATOR trait you can use your INT instead of your CHA on UMD checks as well. Between these bonuses if you put points into UMD you can have a 100% chance of using a wand (DC:20 UMD check) before level 10 very easily, and that can solve your out-of-combat healing needs. For In-combat healing the Occultist is ok, but you're never going to be great at this (well, NEVER SAY NEVER, but not for a while). In the early game spells like Glitterdust are excellent for debuffing and dealing with sneaky enemies, but the Conjuration Implement really shines later when you get access to teleportation effects like Side Step. If you need someone to use wands in the very early game or you're expecting to face a lot of in visible enemies it's a good choice, but otherwise I think this one could wait till level 6.

I haven't played with an Illusion Implement, but it has some good options. Getting access to Mirror Image at level 4 actually makes this potentially great as a defensive implement, and the Shadow Beast Focus power scales noticeably faster than the Conjuration Implement's Servitor, though of course you can't summon a Shadow Beast until level 9. Honestly, whether Illusions are good or not probably depends more on your GM than anything else, if your GM rewards you for creative thinking this is likely one of the strongest schools of magic, and this Implement will be an amazing pick. On the other hand if the GM tends to get bogged down in minutiae and won't let you do anything not explicitly stated in the text of the spell then this will likely be frustrating.

I guess if I were to give a recommendation I would say that Abjuration is probably the one that is best taken early, either of the other 2 could be left until a bit later. If you have no other healers then Conjuration is a good early pick. On the other hand if you were wanting go without the Abjuration Implement (you're only taking it because you think you need it), using Illusions and summons to tank could let you play those other Implements, though you'd have to play a bit smarter and more carefully.

One final thought about all this - Resonant Powers. The Conjuraton resonant power is notoriously bad. There are not that many spells that are actually affected by it (though more than when the class originally came out, they did add some spells to that), but to be honest I just don't think it's very good. At level 6 when you're casting a 1-round/level spell and it lasts 6 rounds you Could put 6 points into your Conjuration Implement to have it last 9 rounds instead ... but the chances of the combat lasting 7+ rounds isn't that high, and you could spend your Mental focus elsewhere and get more out of it. Likewise the Illusion Implement isn't super strong, although it does give you a chance for ambushing enemies to just wiff their attacks, which could be a life-saver. The Abjuration resonant power is decent, but a Cloak of Resistance is one of the cheapest items to buy, so it's not really saving you much. If you had another cloak you wanted to wear it could be worthwhile, but if you're just saving money there are better places to save it.

TLDR: None of the Resonant powers of these three implements are particularly strong, which is why I recommend the HAUNT COLLECTOR archetype.

This archetype was specifically created to allow people to make more use of Implements with characters that didn't really make use of those Implements' Resonant powers, by swapping them out for another bonus. You wouldn't be able to swap out the resonant powers for your first two Impelemnts, but at level 2 you could pick an Implement with a Resonant power you don't like and get something you do like instead (The Champion spirit is the obvious choice to give you a few rounds per day with bonuses to attack), but they can all be valuable bonuses in their area.

My Occultist went Transmutation and Abjuration at level 1, and Conjuration (Haunted - Champion spirit) at level 2, and I was quite happy with the results. I was able to deal damage, deny space with a reach weapon, protect myself with spells and abilities, and generally be extremely flexible and mobile in virtually any situation. As I said I can't speak to the Illusion Implement, but I think it would be a decent choice as well, either at level 2 or 6.


zza ni wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:

...

For reference, at level 6 your Transmutation Implement is giving you +4 Strength, and adding +2 worth of enchantments to your weapon. ...

And people ask me why I ban the occult classes.

Honestly, I Do think it's a strong class, probably a bit overtuned, but it's not as bad as it seems. A well built Fighter or Barbarian will Definitely out-damage an Occultist, and a Ranger vs their favoured enemy would leave the Occultist behind as well. The Ranger and Fighter are also much more flexible in their combat styles, where the Occultist is basically stuck with 1 big weapon or maybe a bow (though obviously most Barbarians are fairly fixed in their combat style as well). Finally, the Occultist has real problems with action economy, so an easy way to help those other classes is to not let PCs buff pre-combat very often. If you're dealing 20% more damage than the other PCs but you spend the first round of combat buffing then you're still going to be behind on total damage until round 6.

I'm not going to tell you how to play your games, but I think a lot of the "problems" of the Occultist and the other Occult classes can probably be managed by understanding their limitations, and potentially by banning certain options, rather than just banning all 5 classes outright. Whether you have the time and/or energy for that is another matter of course, as let's be honest GMs usually spend a lot more time on this game than the players.

Silver Crusade

just to point out as others have said, you don't really *need* trappings until around level 10.

You could take panapoly savant- which would net you 5 extra mental focus over the course of 20 levels, to put into your trappings. Which is nice. It just locks you into abjuration/transmutation spells until level 6.

Another option would be to take battle host, take a Spiked heavy shield for trappings.

This would be the most martial focused occultist you can nab most likely.

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