I have a level 6 Archaeologist Bard that's gestalted with 4 levels of Unchained Rogue and 2 levels of Fighter. ...and she's not keeping up.... Her damage output on a regular full attack is fine, but somehow my party members are doing AoOs from like 30 feet away if the enemy so much as BREATHES. By the time it's my turn, whoever I was headed over to fight is already dead. And all I can do is double move to try to get over to another guy or use my bow, usually with a -4 since I'm a melee character.
What can I do to make my bard more able to keep up?
why -4? as a fighter you are proficient with your bow. So you should be at least +4 with it?
So your main class, Archaeologist Bard is not a combat character, but a support character. While you can do damage, your main benefit to the party would be Inspire courage, but it looks like your archetype loses that. so that leaves you with the rogue type abilities that a bard gets, mostly find traps, etc.
I'm curious why you gestalted with rogue, as the two classes (rogue and bard) are basically the same thing except for the inspired courage? Going full fighter would have been better.
Shooting into melee without Precise Shot is a -4 penalty. It's why that feat is pretty much mandatory for any ranged attacking build.
I went with Rogue to get dex to damage without having to use feats. I'm a gnome so dex is a lot easier than str. I went with the 4th level for Debilitating Injury and another talent. Then into Fighter.
My stats are 11 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 18 Cha.
My feats are Lingering Performance, Deft Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Weapon Training Talent), Whip Mastery, Titan's Tangle (Combat Trick talent), Improved Whip Mastery, Serpent Lash, and Tangled Limbs.
I mostly trip and then do an AoO when they stand back up. There's also a homebrew thing that basically works as a warpriest's Sacred Weapon so the whip is 1d8 instead of 1d2. I was planning on taking Greater Trip next level and then I'm pretty much done on tripping feats. With the gestalt and EITR, the build went a lot quicker.
My AC seems around the same as the others. I'm currently saving up to enhance my shield to +2 at the moment. As for my party, it's a living world group so the members are different each session. I'm not sure what classes they were this time, but I have played a couple of sessions with these two before and they did the AoOs from across the room thing the last time too.
In a gestalt game the most important thing to make sure the classes have good synergy. The gold standard is full BAB, all good saves, full caster and lots of special abilities that complement each other. What you want to avoid is classes that overlap each other. An archaeologist bard and rogue have very little synergy and overlap quite a bit.
My suggestion would be to go with slayer instead of unchained rogue and fighter. Slayers will get you full BAB and all good saves. You also get studied target and sneak attack. Slayer gets you slayer talents in addition to the rogue talents from archaeologist bard. This will require using a few feats to get DEX to damage, but you should be able to get this by around 3rd level. Like fighter it gives you proficiency in martial weapons. If you really want to stack the bonus for traps you can use a slayer talent to pick up trap finding which should stack with the archaeologist bard bonus. Personally, I think that is over kill.
Shooting into melee without Precise Shot is a -4 penalty. It's why that feat is pretty much mandatory for any ranged attacking build.
I went with Rogue to get dex to damage without having to use feats. I'm a gnome so dex is a lot easier than str. I went with the 4th level for Debilitating Injury and another talent. Then into Fighter.
My stats are 11 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, 18 Cha.
My feats are Lingering Performance, Deft Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Weapon Training Talent), Whip Mastery, Titan's Tangle (Combat Trick talent), Improved Whip Mastery, Serpent Lash, and Tangled Limbs.
I mostly trip and then do an AoO when they stand back up. There's also a homebrew thing that basically works as a warpriest's Sacred Weapon so the whip is 1d8 instead of 1d2. I was planning on taking Greater Trip next level and then I'm pretty much done on tripping feats. With the gestalt and EITR, the build went a lot quicker.
My AC seems around the same as the others. I'm currently saving up to enhance my shield to +2 at the moment. As for my party, it's a living world group so the members are different each session. I'm not sure what classes they were this time, but I have played a couple of sessions with these two before and they did the AoOs from across the room thing the last time too.
yeah, it looks like you have a scattered approach to your character, and I'm thinking a misunderstanding of some rules
the Bard Archaeologist does not get Bardic Performance at all - so your lingering performance feat is worthless. You then seem to be trying for a bow/shield/whip build, which is fine, but one of your weapons will suffer in this build. And as for the whip build being your main one, whip builds just aren't known for dealing damage, they are mostly the trip/AoO route.
I still think taking Rogue AND Bard side by side on a gestalt build was a mistake, as they are virtually the same class. I would have not gone Archaeologist at all, as it doesn't get Bardic Performance, which is the best part about being a bard, and just gone pure Rogue/fighter (or as mentioned above, Slayer)
You are correct, Precise shot is mandatory for an archer build, so are many shot and rapid shot, plus deadly aim, which you have none of, so you are not an archer build at all, so don't stress about not dealing damage with your bow, instead concentrate on making the whip better.
Get a haste item (extra attack) and make the whip flaming (extra d6), combined with the sneak attack of a full rogue (half your level of d6), you'll be dishing out some damage with that whip.
while it's always good to have a ranged weapon as backup, the rogue benefits most from have a bunch of attacks - so TWF is my go to for rogues, you might look at that as a secondary fighting style (can you TWF with whips, that would be nasty)
I'm not going for a bow/shield/whip build. I have a bow as a backup weapon. I mentioned it as it's something I have, not something I'm going to always do. I also have a kunai for blunt damage. I always make sure I have backup weapons to avoid being completely unarmed.
The shield is for AC. Why are you guys assuming I'm using it for damage? I said I was going to enhance it. Enhancing it gets me more AC.
As for Lingering Performance, I'm pasting the exact wording from AoN:
"Archaeologist’s Luck (Ex): Fortune favors the archaeologist. As a swift action, an archaeologist can call on fortune’s favor, giving him a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. Maintaining this bonus is a free action, but it ends immediately if the archaeologist is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. Archaeologist’s luck is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance."
In other words, Lingering Performance works on Archaeologist's Luck. And it's pretty needed since an Archaeologist doesn't get extra rounds from leveling up.
I see no reason why you couldn’t use TWF with whips as they are one handed weapons. In fact if one of them is equipped with an Effortless Lace you won’t get the normal penalty associated with fighting with 2 one handed weapons as one will be considered a light weapon.
Lingering performance does work with Archaeologist luck and is highly recommended for the archetype.
I am not that familiar with EIR rules, but from what I understand that if you are using them getting DEX to damage should be take a lot fewer feats. If that is the case going unchained rogue for DEX to damage is even worse.
Your character is highly focused on trips and using the whip, so it is not really surprising that it is lacking in other areas. Going with a small character reduced your movement which makes getting to your target harder. How much flexibility do you have to rebuild the character?
Multiclassing in a gestalt game is just as bad if not worse than in a normal game. In a gestalt game your character gains the class features of two classes and the synergy between those abilities is usually what makes the character more powerful than normal. By multiclassing you delay gaining those abilities which puts you behind other character. At this level the inquisitor/unchained monk has flurry of bane. A 6th level character that gets 4 attacks per round (3 at full BAB) and adding 2d6 damage to each is very powerful. What does this build have that can even compare to that? Sneak attack is situational, so you cannot count on it, debilitating injury only last for a round and only if you are actually hitting. At 2nd level all fighter has given you is 2 feats and bravery.
Improving your movement will help you get to your targets. Expeditious Retreat is a 1st level bard spell and adds 30’ to your movement which would put you up to 50’. If you can increase the reach of your whip, that might also help.
Bard is a CHA based class with UMD as a class skill. Using some offensive wands in combat may also be a good option for the character.
So I missed the line about Lingering performance working with Archaeologists luck, my apologies. I still think the Bard's Inspire Courage is significantly better. We talk about the Bow build because it's the only weapon you discuss in your original post.
As mentioned multiclassing in gestalt isn't the greatest option, especially when your classes have little synergy, and at least one of your classes is more of a support class.
I just finished a game with a Magus/Skald gestalt, the GM allowed the Magus spells to be used in the same manner as skald spells, So my rounds were: use spell combat/spell strike to make multiple attacks and cast a spell, which allowed my Skald performance to continue for free (Harmonic spell), used Skald's vigor and greater skalds vigor to heal my party, and used flumefire rage to get 2 extra points of damage per dice on my spells. and then have lingering performance for it to last for 2 extra rounds that I'm not casting spells to maintain it. And then some rage benefits that made everyone's weapons have multiple elements on them. Some pretty significant synergy
so, as mentioned, you weaked a class by multiclassing (as is the rogue and bard are a same class type dip), and then you really don't have any synergy as all you get from the fighter are some feats and BAB.
Ok, you guys don't like the rogue levels. Understood. I still need to figure out what to do going forward.
Ok, you guys don't like the rogue levels. Understood. I still need to figure out what to do going forward.
Actually, for me, just the opposite, dumpo the bard and go all Rogue/fighter, with a TWF build
Or you could adjust your role from primary damage dealer to support. Bard spells are good for that. You are also a good knowledge monkey as well as trapsmith.
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If you like the character, keep it. It’s up to the GM to engage the whole table in combat if they have green lit gestalt builds that can take a powerful AoO that instakills an enemy.
Off the top of my head I would ask for enemy tanks to engage every once in a while so they can survive getting into melee with the party. And then, yeah, buff the party and harass the enemy in encounters without these tanks.
I haven't had any trouble with out-of-combat stuff, outside of plain old bad luck on rolls. I could lean more into buffing the party
I do get access to Haste next level, so that helps some in getting around. Should I still take Greater Trip and have everything needed for tripping? Or take something else?
I want to keep going with the bard levels, but I'm willing to do something other than Fighter if it's better.
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I’m sure other posters can answer the build questions better, but it seems like the rotating players may have combat on lock, so adding to their AoO’s would be good synergy, since even if you build to their level of damage output, it will only ever be one additional player who can take care of combat on their own, so be different if you like it.
There is a feat just for bards that allows you to bluff and hide your spellcasting in social situations (not sure of the name), that could be a great option to prebuff before some types of encounters.
Consider also abilities and spells that alter terrain or positioning since you can UMD them and they often have effects that can’t be saved against or bypassed. As you go into higher levels, countering spell with dispel magic is fun since the bonuses are caster level based and don’t require more than a feat or two and some items to maximize.
Most players don’t choose it because you have to ready an action to cast, but RAW, when you ready that action, you can say ‘I ready to cast when enemy X acts’ and if that action is a spell, you can counter spell, and if not, you can cast any other spell you like.
Pathfinder can be unforgiving in that the game (like any RPG) is supposed to be about individual players arriving at something they find fun and interesting and playing it, but the rules make it quite difficult for many different concepts to shine.
With that in mind, there's nothing wrong with Gnomes... but you want to be in quasi-melee combat with a perpetually reduced movement rate and seek to inflict combat maneuvers on generally larger opponents. So you're constantly trying to keep up with more mobile friends who also apparently arrived at some amazing reach/threatening loophole. You also want to improve your melee defenses, but I'm not sure the return is worth the cost (relative to saving up for something that will help your mobility or attacking capability).
All that said, I think you've shorted yourself a feat. You should have six feats based on your character level, another two bonus combat feats from your fighter levels, and another two virtual feats from your Rogue combat trick talents. You're showing five feats, two fighter combat feats, and two virtual feats, however.
Second, I don't know whether retraining is an option at your table or not. Assuming you can retrain, however, consider the following:
At 10th level a bard can have 2-3 4th-level spell slots. A bard is also able to cast Dimension Door. As such, why not lose Combat Reflexes and Serpent Lash? The former only makes a difference when you eventually get Greater Trip, while the latter is the Cleave of combat maneuvers. Retrain those two to Dimensional Agility and Dimensional Assault, and pick up Dimensional Dervish with your missing feat. You've now solved your distance problem and, when under the effects of a haste spell, can trip three different targets within 80 feet of your starting position. Ideally, your fellow party members will be flanking them.
By doing so, you've effectively solved your mobility issue, which seems to be the primary cause for you not getting in the mix of things. With whips threatening up to 15' away, and your fellow party members apparently having no problem getting to kill off enemies from across the room, Dimensional Dervish shouldn't be something you have to do more than once per combat. You're still a level or two from being able to do this for every one of the 4-6 recommended encounters per day, but you're still better off than when you were either unable to reach your enemies or contemplating using a bow at a penalty.
I'm sorry, but I can't figure out where you're pulling "6 feats based on character level" from.
Level one: Lingering Performance (base level feat), Deft Maneuvers (replacement for Rogue's Weapon Finesse), and Combat Reflexes (houserule bonus feat)
Level 2: Weapon Focus (from Rogue's Weapon Training talent)
Level 3: Whip Mastery (base level feat)
Level 4: Titan's Tangle (from Rogue's Combat Trick talent)
Level 5: Tangled Limbs (base feat) and Serpent's Lash (Fighter bonus)
Level 6: Improved Whip Mastery (Fighter bonus)
That's 9 feats and only because of the houserule bonus. So why are you saying I should have 10?
We're using the EITR optional ruleset so everyone gets Weapon Finesse anyway. If a class gives one of the feats that EITR gives out, then we can trade it for another feat instead. And I'm using Unchained Rogue so I got the dex to damage at level 3.
Also Deft Maneuvers isn't about using dex for the trip attempt. It's a combination of multiple maneuver feats, including Improved Trip.
As an aside, the Dimensional Dervish line might be handy. There's even a maneuver feat there. Too bad they're not combat feats so I could get them faster with fighter bonus feats. (On that note, WHY are they not combat feats?)
Edit: I was just told of the Flickering Step feat. It's not a combat feat itself, but it turns Dimensional Agility and every feat that requires it into combat feat for the purpose of Fighter bonus feats. I take Flickering Step at level 9, Dimensional Agility at 10, Dimensional Assault at 11, Dimensional Dervish at 12, and Dimensional Maneuvers at 13.
@Pheobus Alxandros:
Its only a level 6 bard.
Gesalt means, she gets every two level two classes with all abilites and the better of saves/BAB etc.So a Wizard 5/Fighter 5 Gesatlt, would have a full BAB (+5), good wil (wizard), good fort (fighter), level 3 spells (wizard), armot and weapon training 1 (fighter) and so on.
Thanks, I was erroneously totaling up the levels instead of just the benefits that came with them.
That said, the underlying problems remain. Heather, I think you need to talk with your party and figure out how it is they're able to threaten enemies from 30 feet away. If it's a legitimate ability/feature/whatever that they have, then your first priority is figuring out your character's lack of mobility. If a character can't affect enemies before the rest of the party wipes them out, [EDIT] AND the GM isn't interested in modifying encounters in order to include your character, [/EDIT] then any style/theme unfortunately becomes moot.
--Its kind of a bloodrager special. Have a reach weapon (10 feet), cast long arm (15 feet) cast enlarge person (20 feet), have abberant or black blood bloodline (25 feet) some items increase reach by 5 more, although they typically penalize attack, or have lunge tree.Well that would also be my way to do things.
Reach weapon and enlarge for 20 feet, long arms and aberrant bloodline for 30 feet.
But thats not permanent aktiv, if a fight breaks out, that 2 spells you need to cast before you are ready to go.
That should be more than enough time to get into postion with any character. (here namely the bard)That would only work if they are able to surprise their enemeies or if they see the enemies come from a long distance, every time.
And the moment I am in a narrower dungeon, i cant get big so well and my reach goes down.
Enlarge with reach weapons also causes a problem with medium enemies who get rly close.But yeah that would be a way, but it would be a long situational setup, which ofc works really well if i have the time and the place to do it.
you can use Abyssal bloodline and Demonic Bulk for the enlarge, but that would remove the aberrant bloodline bonuses
It sounds nice, but i cant really grasp if thats a good build, every idea I have takes either some time to setup, costs a lot (spells/feats) or has other drawbacks (like being big in a small dungeon).
A reach weapon provides its benefits automatically, as does the Aberrant bloodline's abnormal reach. So at 4th level you're threatening out to 15 feet by default.
Also at 4th level, you can cast a single 1st level, so with either Enlarge Person or Long Arm, you're threatening out to 20 feet with one round invested. But that one round may very well have been spent moving anyways; it's not a given that you delayed melee combat in the process. That's also assuming you don't want to draw the enemy in, instead of you attacking them.
At 7th level, a party member could craft a Sipping Jacket for your Bloodrager, allowing them consume a potion of either Enlarge Person or Long Arm as a swift action, albeit just 1/day--and by eating up your swift action for each round you want to have that effect. Combined with casting, that allows your Bloodrager to threaten out to 25 feet with one round's investment.
At 11th level, a bloodrager can apply the effects a bloodrager spell he knows of 2nd level or lower to himself as part of the free action to enter a bloodrage. At that point, the time required for this build's setup is kind of negligible.
As for enemies getting inside his reach, there are always feats that allow you to negate reach on certain types of weapons, or there's the option of giving a weapon the Transformative quality (though using it costs a standard action).
None of this takes into account the possibility of a support spellcaster casting spells like Enlarge Person for the Bloodrager, by the way. All that being said, I think this is a more than viable build that can make itself felt early on in the game.
I was mostly responding to your closing concerns in your last post, which I thought were just general observations. Where Heather is concerned, specifically, I suspect there are some imbalances (the other PCs may be 7th level)... or perhaps the GM is inadvertently allowing some some mistakes to fly in their game. Alternatively, the GM may be generous with how the first round or two go (allowing the theoretical Bloodragers to get their spells in place) or the PCs are doing a good job of spotting encounters (giving them time to get their spells in place before hostilities commence).
To your other points, I don't know how frequently the PCs in question do this. Point of fact, I don't even know how they do it; we're just running with a logical assumption.
I may be wrong but I don’t think getting a 30ft reach by level 6 is particularly difficult actually. A Druid with standard Change Shape ability can take the form of a Dire Ape by 6th level. They can take the Weapon Shift feat at 5th level and if they are proficient with whips they can shift the whip and add the reach(15ft) weapon special ability to their natural attacks. Since they have a 10ft reach already and reach weapons are duplicative not additive when combined with natural reach this would give them a 30ft reach in Dire Ape form. Gestalt with Aberrant Bloodrager to gain an extra 5 foot reach on top of that and pre-cast Long Arm before combat for a total of 40ft.
I have no idea how they did it either. I suspect magic is involved but not what kind.
Oh, those are definitely handy. The hard part will be getting them denied their dex for the first trip attempt though. I could probably retrain Tangled Limbs and Serpent Lash to get both. We don't run into too many things with 4 legs.
What action is triple time? It doesn't say. Is it the same as a regular bardic performance?
Yes, I took Fate's Favored. The other trait is Maestro of the Society.
My spells are CLW, Grease, Tears to Wine, Vanish at level one. Level 2 is Cat's Grace, CMW, Invisibility, and Glitterdust.