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(First of all, I'm only talking about the mechanics here. I understand that some people have a strong preference for one system or the other, but that's not what I'm trying to adress)
It's always been my understanding, from ADD 2.0 onwards, that there were two types of casting, both with their advantages.
- Spontaneous spellcasters had more flexibility on the fly
- Prepared spellcasters had more flexibility overall.
Basically, the sorcerer had a very small number of spells but could use them with more leeway, while the wizard could have as many spells as he wanted (sometimes limited by his INT) and change his selection every day, but then this selection was set in stone.
(There were other differences in some iterations, namely DD 3.0, DD 3.5 and PF1, where spontaneous casters got their spells one level later, but could cast them more often).
Anyway, this has been going for a long time and it looked pretty balanced.
The one time where the system showed weakness, though, was computer games, where the smaller amount of solutions available, the emphasis on fighting and the reduced number of spells gave a distinct advantage to the spontaneous caster: what's the point of knowing every spell in the game when most aren't as useful as a handpicked selection of the very best ones ?
And with PF2, it seems this problem has come to tabletop, and spontaneous casting got so much love that it erased all its limitations.
This boils down to a couple reasons:
1) Spontaneous casters know more spells than before.
2) Spontaneous casters get signature spells for free, which is a HUGE thing
3) The number of "must know" spells isn't that huge.
4) Scrolls/wands/staves are still a thing.
5) Some feats downright remove the only downside there could be.
1 - More spells known than before.
Without any feats:
A lvl 5 sorcerer in PF1 knew 6 spells (4 lvl 1, 2 lvl 2)
A lvl 5 sorcerer in PF2 knows 11 spells (4 lvl 1, 4 lvl 2, 3 lvl 3).
A lvl 10 sorcerer in PF1 knew 15 spells (5 lvl 1, 4 lvl 2, 3 lvl 3, 2 lvl 4 and 1 lvl 5).
A lvl 10 sorcerer in PF2 knows 20 spells (4 per level)
A lvl 15 sorcerer in PF1 knew 27 spells.
A lvl 15 sorcerer in PF2 knows 31 spells
A lvl 20 sorcerer in PF1 knew 34 spells
A lvl 20 sorcerer in PF2 knows 36 spells.
So the amount of spells we know has increased, thus easing the first limitation of spontaneous casters.
Meanwhile, prepared casters still have the same shtick of being able to learn any spell, but having to prepare them on their slots, so didn't get the same buff.
You might say "Ok but some of those spells are fixed, so you can't cherry pick your whole list". That's true but most of the time, the spells from the bloodline are at least a bit useful, especially in the case of arcane casters (Imperial sorcerer has probably the most loaded list of all bloodlines and draconic has a lot of good things as well. Genies... well...).
But anyway, this increased amount of spell known is just the cherry on top of the huuuge cake that is...
2 – Signature spells.
Signature spells make it so that you can choose 1 spell per level that can be cast at any level. Heightening wasn’t a thing in PF1, it is now, and that means signature spells are HUGE.
The sorcerer list is way bigger than what you see at first glance.
A level 5 sorcerer doesn’t only have 11 spells known. He really knows 4 lvl 1 spells (his basic selection), 5 lvl 2 spells (4 + the heightened lvl 1) and 5 lvl 3 spells (3 + heightened lvl 1, + heightened lvl 2) for a total of 14 spells known.
By the same token, a level 10 sorcerer knows 4+5+6+7+8= a grand total of 30 spells.
Meanwhile, the wizard still has to choose painfully every single one of his spells for every single level, and a lvl 4 fireball won’t be the same as a lvl 5 one.
What does that mean practically ? Let’s see an average well-rounded spell list of a level 5 sorcerer.
McSorcerer (Imperial Sorcerer)
1 – Force Barrage*, Befuddle, Illusory object, Grease
2 – Dispel Magic*, Longstrider, Floating flame, Invisibility
3 – Haste, Fireball, Fear*
Our sorcerer has buffs for his team or himself, spells that target will or ref (no fortitude yet but it’ll come), can dispel at any level, and of course make a room implode. Notice he can use fear as single- or many-target, he can use Force Barrage at lvl 1 or 3, and his dispel can be strong or weak.
Meanwhile, our poor wizard has a choice to make. First of all, if he’s not a specialist, he simply has not enough breadth to emulate the sorcerer, because he can only choose 3 different spells per level and not 4. If he’s a specialist (and let’s hope his school has useful spells), he *could* be as diverse, but that would mean he’d have only ONE cast of each, with probably some slots that will feel like dead weight.
Also, some spells are really hit or miss in this case – as a wizard, either you prepare dispel as your top slot, or you don’t.
For instance, expecting a combat-heavy day, a wizard COULD have a list that goes this way:
1 – Force Barrage, Fear, Fear + school
2 – Floating Flame, Blazing Bolt, Blazing Bolt + school
3 – Fireball, Fireball + school
But even so, it’s less efficient than McSorcerer, and of course it’s totally useless if something unexpected happens. It’s also mostly tailored to AOE, what if there’s a single enemy ?
3 – The number of must-know spells are not that big.
As an arcane caster, you should try to get spells that:
- Help/buff your allies and yourself (things like haste, fly, greater invisibility…)
- Blast crowds (things like fireball)
- Debuff the enemy (fear, befuddle, slow…)
- Control the battlefield (wall spells, repositioning, action denial…)
- Give utility outside of battle (illusions, invisibility, flying, tongues…)
Even when taking care of targeting all saves, you’re pretty much set with a small selection of spells – those that most spell guides like Gortle’s color in blue or purple.
But wait, you say, WHAT IF something happens and you don’t know the spell ? You’re screwed as a spontaneous caster, right ?
Wrong.
Because...
4 – Scrolls are a thing.
Sometimes, you need a very specific spell in your spellbook. It almost never happens, because see #3, and I can’t think of one from the top of my head, but let’s say it does. You need tongues and you had no room for it in your sorcerer spell list.
First of all, a prepared caster HAS to copy the spell in his spellbook to get it, and unless he picks it (like a sorcerer) at level up, he HAS to buy it once to scribe it.
So if your wizard had to cast Tongues, you better hope he thought about buying it in town. And if he did, then with the same budget there is no reason the sorcerer didn’t.
So now the wizard has Tongue in his spellbook - and has to wait until next morning to use it – while the sorcerer has the actual scroll and can just cast it right here, right now. Advantage to the sorcerer, even here, unless you double down on every scroll you buy.
So when does the wizard have the upper hand ? Hmm. Let’s see. In the VERY SPECIFIC situation of A LOT OF PEOPLE needing A VERY RARE BUFF that the sorcerer DOESN’T HAVE, the wizard has the edge. “Hey, tomorrow I can give all of you water breathing, how cool is that ?”
That’s cool, no doubt. And that’s probably his biggest moment of spotlight.
Oh, wait, someone tells me…
5) Some feats downright remove the only downside there could be.
Hello, Arcane evolution. Now the sorcerer can also give the whole team water breathing if he scribed the scroll.
CONCLUSION
I love the wizard, I even wrote a guide for the spellblending one who can at least pretend to be good by having way more top slots than any class in the game.
But still, the nerdy wizard is just the cool sorcerer’s bullied friend, and he needs some love.
Arcane Witch here. I don't necessarily disagree. I have the same difficulties, challenges, and tradeoffs regarding prepared spellcasting that you mention for the Wizard.
I have other compensations such as familiar abilities, focus spells, and useful feats.
Do you have any suggestions or recommendations for changes to the Wizard that would improve the gameplay without causing the Wizard class to become objectively more powerful than related classes such as Arcane Sorcerer or Arcane Witch?
Well, Paizo doesn't seem to think so and they aren't listening to those of us that want a better wizard designed appropriately for PF2.
As I see more of the player core come out, there are just far more interesting classes than the wizard to play. Looks like they get to be the boring, low tier arcane caster class for this edition.
Maybe they'll do the wizard better in PF3 or some unchained book. I'm mostly going to avoid that class in PF2. It's not very interesting or well done. Worst port over from PF2 unfortunately and very disappointing as someone that has played many wizards and magic users over every edition.
I even made a 5E wizard and a 4E wizard to try them out. It's always the first class I try and even the 4E wizard was one of the better classes in 4E, a game I hated. The 5E wizard is genuinely good even with the lower slots.
The PF2 wizard is the only wizard I've disliked in D&D type games compared to other options in the history of these games. It was also the first class I tried in PF2. It was an absolutely terrible experience without the normal power up as you get higher level.
Then I tried a bard and druid, had a great time. So they were able to create PF2 versions of the bard and druid I greatly enjoyed. But that wizard is so unsatisfying to play and gets so little for the time invested in terms of cool powers or abilities.
My bard is getting these amazing cantrips and focus point abilities on top of their spells and dabbling in different muses. My druid is building up Untamed Form into this super versatile ability while launching lightning. On top of better armor and weapon options and 8 hit points per level and a casting stat with better feat support.
And the wizard was pew pewing with a 30 foot range 1 action force bolt for slightly more damage. And casting spells that get saved against and were used up when the slot was done unless I memorized multiple copies of the same spell. Even their advanced focus spells were nearly unusable with often bad action economy. The whole class feels terrible. About the only thing they got going for them is good level 20 feats. But torturing yourself playing a wizard to level 20 to use them for a short series of encounters doesn't seem worth it when other classes get so much more across their levels.
Oh well. Wizard sucks in PF2. It is what it is. Let the folks who enjoy it play it. I consider the wizard a class to avoid on the low tier of the fun spectrum for PF2.
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Again??????????
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Anyway, this has been going for a long time and it looked pretty balanced.
This line makes the whole post kind of hard to take seriously. For the entirety of the d20/3.5/PF1 lifecycle Wizards have been considered vastly superior to Sorcerers. This is the first edition where the idea of the opposite has even been on the table, and by any reasonable metric the gap between the two is much smaller this edition.
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I was under the impression that when a wizard picked up a scroll in order to copy something into their spellbook, they still had the scroll when they're done.
So the thing about scrolls is if a Wizard thinks Tongues might be useful, they buy a scroll of it, then they copy it into their spellbook, but don't prepare it. If it comes up that Tongues is useful in a given context, they cast it from the scroll and if they think it's going to continue to be useful they prepare it tomorrow.
I was under the impression that when a wizard picked up a scroll in order to copy something into their spellbook, they still had the scroll when they're done.
So the thing about scrolls is if a Wizard thinks Tongues might be useful, they buy a scroll of it, then they copy it into their spellbook, but don't prepare it. If it comes up that Tongues is useful in a given context, they cast it from the scroll and if they think it's going to continue to be useful they prepare it tomorrow.
Correct, copying scrolls no longer consumes them
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Do you have any suggestions or recommendations for changes to the Wizard that would improve the gameplay without causing the Wizard class to become objectively more powerful than related classes such as Arcane Sorcerer or Arcane Witch?
Well, one thing could be to give the wizard chassis the spell substitution thesis. It's not that powerful and it wouldn't bridge the power gap, but it would at least give him something special that would make him shine in some very specific situations AND allow him to tweak his prepared spells somewhat when he's SoL.
I was under the impression that when a wizard picked up a scroll in order to copy something into their spellbook, they still had the scroll when they're done.y it into their spellbook, but don't prepare it. If it comes up that Tongues is useful in a given context, they cast it from the scroll and if t
So the thing about scrolls is if a Wizard thinks Tongues might be useful, they buy a scroll of it, then they cophey think it's going to continue to be useful they prepare it tomorrow.
Oh yeah, that's totally my bad.
Doesn't invalidate the rest of the rant, though - some gp saved isn't enough to change the balance between the two ^^Also, Arcane Evolution.
This line makes the whole post kind of hard to take seriously. For the entirety of the d20/3.5/PF1 lifecycle Wizards have been considered vastly superior to Sorcerers. This is the first edition where the idea of the opposite has even been on the table, and by any reasonable metric the gap between the two is much smaller this edition.
Well, the gap wasn't that vast in actual play, and even for those who wanted to put classes into tiers, there was only one tier difference between wizard and sorcerer. And tiers were mostly made by speculating on how much a character, given any amount of time and preparation, could achieve victory - which is NOT a regular adventuring day in most scenarios.
But that's not the point and not everything is about white room situations: even in 3.5 or PF1, a lot of players liked playing a sorcerer because it gave things the wizard didn't have, namely more spells per day and the ability to use any of your slots for any spell known. So even if the wizard were actually ahead 1) it didn't really show in day to day experience and 2) you actually felt that you got some advantages and disadvantages by picking one or the other. In some scenarios, the wizard was better. In some others, the sorcerer had the upper hand. That's what i'd call balanced, even if one might actually be better than the other.
Here, the problem is I cannot think of a single thing (apart from INT-skills) a wizard can do better than an arcane sorcerer, a single scenario where he has the upper hand. I played a lot of sorcerers and a lot of wizards in a lot of campaigns, and I'm not among those who think casters are bad in this edition, they're awesome.But I believe you can build a spell repertoire with a sorcerer that covers 95% of the needs of an adventure, even while remaining flexible and creative, and being leagues better than a wizard at it - and get scrolls in the off-chance you might find a situation that you didn't think about.
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I like being able to up-cast my spells without committing to signatures, I also like the effects of the various thesis (spellblending especially), and playing intelligence focused characters, so this hasn't been my experience. I'd rather play a non-arcane sorcerer partially for this reason, actually.
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I like being able to up-cast my spells without committing to signatures, I also like the effects of the various thesis (spellblending especially), and playing intelligence focused characters, so this hasn't been my experience. I'd rather play a non-arcane sorcerer partially for this reason, actually.
Interesting point. All of a wizards spells are capable of being heightened to those top slots when prepping or subbing.
To be fair, Sorcerers have been worse than Wizards for the longest time.
I guess Paizo said "That's enough, Wizards. It's the Sorcerer's turn now."
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I like being able to up-cast my spells without committing to signatures, I also like the effects of the various thesis (spellblending especially), and playing intelligence focused characters, so this hasn't been my experience. I'd rather play a non-arcane sorcerer partially for this reason, actually.Interesting point. All of a wizards spells are capable of being heightened to those top slots when prepping or subbing.
Its nice for spells you don't cast crazy often but might circumstantially want to heighten sometimes when you do, like Dream Message to communicate with NPCs or Dimension Door, since it essentially plays two different roles at it's differing heightens. It's also nice for just specializing a spell list for the kind of resistance you'll face-- not in like super specific ways, but just like 'huh, i guess i'll prep higher level lightning bolts instead of fireballs, since we're headed into a volcano dungeon' that kinda stuff eats signature slots real quick but works way better if you have a spell book and free rein.
Spell Sub is an especially useful variant of it, because you can make the adjustments way more last minute, to spells your Sorcerer might not know, and most likely doesn't have as a signature-- Sorcerers are fine, but Wizards do have tools to use the list better.
Its nice for spells you don't cast crazy often but might circumstantially want to heighten sometimes when you do, like Dream Message to communicate with NPCs or Dimension Door, since it essentially plays two different roles at it's differing heightens. It's also nice for just specializing a spell list for the kind of resistance you'll face-- not in like super specific ways, but just like 'huh, i guess i'll prep higher level lightning bolts instead of fireballs, since we're headed into a volcano dungeon' that kinda stuff eats signature slots real quick but works way better if you have a spell book and free rein.
That's true, but most if not all sorcerers should have different element spells anyway so they're not SoL when they face an immunity, so they shouldn't even have to swap when going into a volcano dungeon.
But let's say they do. Let's say their spell repertoire is lacking, and they only have fire spells. That's the 1% case I was talking about earlier, and was adressed in my #5 point.
- Boy, am I glad I'm a wizard, says the Wizard. Tomorrow, instead of all those fireballs, I'll memorize sweet juicy lightning bolts !
- Good idea, says the sorcerer. I'll do the same.
- Wait, what ?
Or just switch around that one bonus signature if it's more efficient.
And so, the next day, they enter the dungeon with both being able to cast lightning bolt, except the sorcerer can ALSO turn any of these lightning bolts into any other spell of the same level with but a thought.
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Its nice for spells you don't cast crazy often but might circumstantially want to heighten sometimes when you do, like Dream Message to communicate with NPCs or Dimension Door, since it essentially plays two different roles at it's differing heightens. It's also nice for just specializing a spell list for the kind of resistance you'll face-- not in like super specific ways, but just like 'huh, i guess i'll prep higher level lightning bolts instead of fireballs, since we're headed into a volcano dungeon' that kinda stuff eats signature slots real quick but works way better if you have a spell book and free rein.
That's true, but most if not all sorcerers should have different element spells anyway so they're not SoL when they face an immunity, so they shouldn't even have to swap when going into a volcano dungeon.
But let's say they do. Let's say their spell repertoire is lacking, and they only have fire spells. That's the 1% case I was talking about earlier, and was adressed in my #5 point.
- Boy, am I glad I'm a wizard, says the Wizard. Tomorrow, instead of all those fireballs, I'll memorize sweet juicy lightning bolts !
- Good idea, says the sorcerer. I'll do the same.
- Wait, what ?Or just switch around that one bonus signature if it's more efficient.
And so, the next day, they enter the dungeon with both being able to cast lightning bolt, except the sorcerer can ALSO turn any of these lightning bolts into any other spell of the same level with but a thought.
I'm not really talking about bread-and-butter combat spells, sorcerers can certainly cram those in (though they'll still be more limited, like if you spent those signature slots on other things in the volcano example), I'm talking about the problem-solving utility spells. Like when my Wizard would use Dream Message to contact distant NPCs to keep them appraised of what was happening, or phantom steed when we used it to carry out wounded members of competing adventuring teams, or Translocate, but sometimes wanting the level 4 version to bop around in combat vs. the level 5 version to either bop through walls or to a spot a much longer distance. Single Target Fly vs. Multi-target fly-- these aren't signature spell material because you want combat spells for that, but it would suck having to learn each one at least twice to get the utility of each version.
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I like being able to up-cast my spells without committing to signatures, I also like the effects of the various thesis (spellblending especially), and playing intelligence focused characters, so this hasn't been my experience. I'd rather play a non-arcane sorcerer partially for this reason, actually.Interesting point. All of a wizards spells are capable of being heightened to those top slots when prepping or subbing.
This isn’t a “Wizard” feature. It’s a prepared caster feature and is open to all prepared casters. It’s not something special that only Wizards can do.
This isn’t a “Wizard” feature. It’s a prepared caster feature and is open to all prepared casters. It’s not something special that only Wizards can do.I like being able to up-cast my spells without committing to signatures, I also like the effects of the various thesis (spellblending especially), and playing intelligence focused characters, so this hasn't been my experience. I'd rather play a non-arcane sorcerer partially for this reason, actually.Interesting point. All of a wizards spells are capable of being heightened to those top slots when prepping or subbing.
Does that make the point less valid to consider?
isn't this thread comparing sorcerer to wizard?|
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Not less valid, just different weighting. Sorcerers and Wizards are part of different caster groups. Things inherent of that group aren’t more or less impactful than they are for other classes within those groups.
These conversations tend to get messy as people want to litigate every issue at once without clearly marking out particular issues.
Not less valid, just different weighting. Sorcerers and Wizards are part of different caster groups. Things inherent of that group aren’t more or less impactful than they are for other classes within those groups.
These conversations tend to get messy as people want to litigate every issue at once without clearly marking out particular issues.
Ah ok thanks for clarifying what you meant.