Looks like Dangerous Sorcery was moved from a class feat to a class feature. So RIP archetyping for it.someone else put up a build and prepared spells for a level 5 wizard they would use when they don't know what they would encounter that day.
I mean, the old feat would still exist.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Looks like Dangerous Sorcery was moved from a class feat to a class feature. So RIP archetyping for it.Is it accessible through archetyping?
Anyway, I agree that with the release of PC2 and both the Sorcerer and the Oracle being buffed, the Wizard seems weaker than it has ever been.
I don't have the book, so I can't say for certain, but I doubt it would be accessible via a feat. They generally don't open up class features like that.
I suppose you can still take as a legacy option, but this might fall into the "Directly Remastered" situation where you are no longer supposed to use the old version anymore.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Looks like Dangerous Sorcery was moved from a class feat to a class feature. So RIP archetyping for it.Is it accessible through archetyping?
Anyway, I agree that with the release of PC2 and both the Sorcerer and the Oracle being buffed, the Wizard seems weaker than it has ever been.
It has been confirmed that the sorcerer archetype doesn't give you this class feature. A GM might still allow the old Dangerous Sorcery to be taken, but it's officially in a "your mileage may vary" situation now.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It has been confirmed that the sorcerer archetype doesn't give you this class feature. A GM might still allow the old Dangerous Sorcery to be taken, but it's officially in a "your mileage may vary" situation now.
Well... Preremaster, I was that close to play a Wizard (cancelled game means really close). Post PC1, I was less close. Post PC2, it looks like there are very few remaining casters I'd like to play with. Wizard is dead for me.
Ok um i think i have been missing something but the ars gramatica school on a spell sub wizard seems like it is the quintessential wizard.
The advanced focus spell gives a clairvoyant invisible eye as a focus spell. That makes scouting ahead incredibly easy and if there is a bit of extra time to sub out spells this wizard will always have an optimal spell selection for the job from a wide list of spells. This lets them RK ahead of a fight.
This is like batman with 30 min prep time.
That wizard has the right spell for low saves and to hit weaknesses or avoid resistances every time there is a little bit of time to scout and sub.
This is the wizard build I am testing. I will test at level 10 like Deriven suggested.
It will be a given before entering the first encounter that this wizard can use the eye and roll RK for each creature for as long as the eye goes unnoticed. Then spell sub to have the spells that target the lowest saves and any weaknesses or that take the best advantage of the terrain config.
I dont want to build the sorcerer. Can someone provide a level 10 build for the test that they feel shows off what they can do when they are well set up? No archetypes please so we are showing just whats in class.
i also dont want to design the encounters so im not setting up ones that favor the wizard.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Looks like Dangerous Sorcery was moved from a class feat to a class feature. So RIP archetyping for it.someone else put up a build and prepared spells for a level 5 wizard they would use when they don't know what they would encounter that day.
I saw that. Wow. Sorcerer got a little better and now the wizard can't take this unique ability, so the sorc is the damage casting king now.
These are areas I can think of that it seems casters care about to work. The biggest things being the first 2.
1. Spell Access what list and extent to which they can poach from other lists to use for slotted spells
2. Spells per day, quantity at each level
3. Quality of focus spells and class specific cantrips
4. Feats that augment or improve spell casting
5. What they can do with a third action (beyond things any class can do)
6. Magic items that work with their class abilities and spells
I want an interesting class who can do interesting things. This little list doesn't matter.
Every caster can cast spells.
What makes a class good is the extras on the class. The wizard extras feel like stuff they should already have or is just boring. Spell Substitution given how powerful spontaneous casting is now should just be a feature for all prepared casters to be able to keep up with spontaneous casters by adjusting your spell list to be impactful throughout the day since that is the main advantage of prepared casting.
If Spellshape feats aren't that great, than its going to lower the value of Spellshaping Thesis.
It's just not interesting or particularly good. The only arguments we get from the pro-caster crowd are from folks who don't even play spontaneous casters to high level to see how good they become or see they have spellbooks and the ability to change their repertoire, sometimes on the fly. On top of dipping into all four lists and getting up to 45 spells known they can cast spontaneously using all their slots as needed. It's so obvious the math favors the sorcerer in battle casting by a huge margin not even sure why these arguments keep coming up.
I'm sure something like mathmuse could show how extreme a high level sorcerers advantage is in casting versatility with upcasting, signature spells, a spellbook with the arcane sorcerer, and 4 slots per level and Greater Mental Evolution is for the sheer number of casting choices a high level sorcerer has compared to a wizard with locked in spell choices due to prepared casting.
Our group for Curse of the Crimson Throne actually TPK'd because of a Spontaneous Spellcaster instead of a Prepared one.
If that isn't enough of a reason for Prepared > Spontaneous, then nothing is.
Our group for Curse of the Crimson Throne actually TPK'd because of a Spontaneous Spellcaster instead of a Prepared one.
If that isn't enough of a reason for Prepared > Spontaneous, then nothing is.
Because it's obvious: Nothing a Prepared caster can do can be reproduced by any mean.
I hardly think the issue was Spontaneous vs Prepared.
|
|
Our group for Curse of the Crimson Throne actually TPK'd because of a Spontaneous Spellcaster instead of a Prepared one.
If that isn't enough of a reason for Prepared > Spontaneous, then nothing is.
Yeah, there is almost no situation where this is the actual reason without several other points of failure before hand.
Despite Deriven's obvious disdain for the wizard casters I would like to still check a few things.
Does anyone have a level 10 sorcerer build they think shows that discrepancy the most? If you use pathbuilder I can just upload it into foundry.
Its really the spell selection i would like to see that is considered all the spells a caster would actually need which obviates the entire existence of a wizard.
Our group for Curse of the Crimson Throne actually TPK'd because of a Spontaneous Spellcaster instead of a Prepared one.
If that isn't enough of a reason for Prepared > Spontaneous, then nothing is.
Don't believe this in the slightest.
Despite Deriven's obvious disdain for the wizard casters I would like to still check a few things.
Does anyone have a level 10 sorcerer build they think shows that discrepancy the most? If you use pathbuilder I can just upload it into foundry.
Its really the spell selection i would like to see that is considered all the spells a caster would actually need which obviates the entire existence of a wizard.
I have experience playing or DMing both. I have zero idea what you are trying to show. I have 3 or 4 high level sorcerers sitting around.
I have a level 20 Harrow sorcerer. A level 10 elemental sorcerer. A level 11 wizard. A level 17 dragon sorcerer. These are some characters I have laying around in my character folders.
What are you trying to prove? A generic legendary caster can do ok?
Despite Deriven's obvious disdain for the wizard casters I would like to still check a few things.
Does anyone have a level 10 sorcerer build they think shows that discrepancy the most? If you use pathbuilder I can just upload it into foundry.
Its really the spell selection i would like to see that is considered all the spells a caster would actually need which obviates the entire existence of a wizard.
I have experience playing or DMing both. I have zero idea what you are trying to show. I have 3 or 4 high level sorcerers sitting around.
I have a level 20 Harrow sorcerer. A level 10 elemental sorcerer. A level 11 wizard. A level 17 dragon sorcerer. These are some characters I have laying around in my character folders.
What are you trying to prove? A generic legendary caster can do ok?
I will say im not actually doubting your experience in this.
If there is an issue with wizards its an issue in the balance of existing spells compared to each other such that a hand full of spells selected by a sorcerer at each rank is actually effectively the best load out a caster could have available. (this essentially obviates prepared casting not anything else really)If that holds then a wizard using stealth or invisibility conceal spell and a floating eyeball rune at 500ft away and RK checks based on what they find cannot actually go back and prep slots with spell sub from a larger list of known spells to handle situations encountered better than the sorcerer with the spells they always have on hand.
Ok um i think i have been missing something but the ars gramatica school on a spell sub wizard seems like it is the quintessential wizard.
The advanced focus spell gives a clairvoyant invisible eye as a focus spell. That makes scouting ahead incredibly easy
It has to be cast at a point within line of sight. Unless you're scouting down the branches of t-intersections ahead of you or to find out what's inside a room with an open door (why don't they hear you casting and come out? why is the door open?) it's not useful at all to scout ahead. Those situations (and maybe a generous GM allowing you to cast it up in the air when outside to look down over terrain features) happen, but they're not the baseline.
It has to be cast at a point within line of sight. Unless you're scouting down the branches of t-intersections ahead of you or to find out what's inside a room with an open door (why don't they hear you casting and come out? why is the door open?) it's not useful at all to scout ahead. Those situations (and maybe a generous GM allowing you to cast it up in the air when outside to look down over terrain features) happen, but they're not the baseline.Ok um i think i have been missing something but the ars gramatica school on a spell sub wizard seems like it is the quintessential wizard.
The advanced focus spell gives a clairvoyant invisible eye as a focus spell. That makes scouting ahead incredibly easy
I did notice it would encourage a very stealthy wizard with conceal spell and some invisibility ready to go.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I will say im not actually doubting your experience in this.
If there is an issue with wizards its an issue in the balance of existing spells compared to each other such that a hand full of spells selected by a sorcerer at each rank is actually effectively the best load out a caster could have available. (this essentially obviates prepared casting not anything else really)
If that holds then a wizard using stealth or invisibility conceal spell and a floating eyeball rune at 500ft away and RK checks based on what they find cannot actually go back and prep slots with spell sub from a larger list of known spells to handle situations encountered better than the sorcerer with the spells they always have on hand.
The problem isn't that the wizard can't get better spells. The problem is that the better spells are rarely, if ever, so much better as to be worth the hassle—let alone the main character syndrome the table must endure, since now everyone must play at the pace of the wizard and accommodate the wizard in order for them to have been worth taking at all.
A wizard preparing generically useful combat spells is almost always worse than a sorcerer taking the same spells. The generic wizard only gets ahead when they've pulled a perfect loadout for the entire day, since they get one or two more top rank slots. They have a slightly higher performance ceiling with flawless preparation, and a lower performance ceiling with average preparation. The wizard's extra slots are there because they're going to have imperfect preparation and they need more wiggle room to make up for it, not to actually give them more power.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think people's real problems with wizard are one of three things:
1. The class is not as easy to play as other classes with either spontaneous casting or a class ability to lean on so prepared doesn't punish you as much for not being good at the whole preparing and planning thing.
2. The class abilities are not dressed up in exciting enough flavor for people and are more practical and utilitarian.
3. The wizard is no longer head and shoulders above other classes, and is now just as good as any other caster.
Points 1 and 2 compound eachother making the class feel weaker than others to players who are not really good at playing wizards for whatever reason. Typically just not being aligned with the mentality of the class.
Particularly I think Derivens comments express all three points, but especially their talk about the arcane list expresses point three. The arcane list is now about as good as any other, and the examples Deriven uses just prove this point. Any time he says "well this list also gets X spell" the reverse argument is possible. Yes occult is cool, but most occult spells, especially the good ones, are on the arcane list too. Yes the primal list is good, but many of the good control and blast spells on that list are also on arcane. There are a few stand out exceptions within a spell list unique to it, or shared by each other but not arcane, and what should be said about this? Good, there needs to be a reason to be an occult caster, a divine caster, or a primal caster. Arcane gets most things the others get but gets fewer of its own stuff. This might feel bad to some, but makes wizards needing to poach lists less necessary. I also think occult is overvalued. It's a great list FS, but it has a lot of weaknesses, all lists do, except arcane which has nearly zero weaknesses. Sure it doesn't have synesthesia but others lists need good strong reasons for people to take them and for each player to point to a list and go "this list is my favorite, and it has this awesome powerful spell no one else gets" (except sorcerer gets to poach spells for free without restriction on what spell/spells they are and I think it is wildly inappropriate)
The general thing here is that each caster class needs a reason to tell you why it is a worthy consideration over a wizard, or eachother, and the existence of this is being treated like it is a reason wizards are supposedly weak. Frankly it is good someone might seriously consider a druid, a bard, a sorcerer or a psychic over a wizard in a party. That is how it should be, these options should be as good as each other or as close as possible
The state of casters rn is good. Do I still want more toys for wizard? Ofc. Is wizard weaker than other casters? Lmfao, no.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Don't believe this in the slightest.Our group for Curse of the Crimson Throne actually TPK'd because of a Spontaneous Spellcaster instead of a Prepared one.
If that isn't enough of a reason for Prepared > Spontaneous, then nothing is.
Don't believe it if you want, but it happened for our group, and it's solely because we didn't have the benefits of a Prepared Spellcaster.
In short, it's because Spontaneous requires weeks of downtime to retrain into spells that they need, versus Prepared, which can just change them the following day. This is especially great when comparing Clerics to Oracles, because Clerics can just prep spells like Remove Curse, Restoration, etc. in the following day. Oracles? They can't do that, period.
A lot of our characters suffered permanent debilitations that could not be fixed except with spells like Restoration and such. Problem is, our Oracle didn't have such spells known, and there were no scrolls or anything available to us. This was at the tail end of the 5th book, where we weren't going to have any opportunity to "retreat" to buy scrolls or otherwise get access to such spells, because doing so essentially meant we would lose in the book.
So, we were effectively forced to fight a mini-boss while super-crippled, and after having 2 of the 5 characters die as a result of being super-crippled, the other 3 simply "noped" out of the adventure (since we managed to make the mini-boss burn through their entire spell list and dip), and we ended it there. Granted, we should have TPK'd by the 2nd or 3rd book, but in that case it wouldn't have been because of different types of spellcasters.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Don't believe this in the slightest.Our group for Curse of the Crimson Throne actually TPK'd because of a Spontaneous Spellcaster instead of a Prepared one.
If that isn't enough of a reason for Prepared > Spontaneous, then nothing is.
Don't believe it if you want, but it happened for our group, and it's solely because we didn't have the benefits of a Prepared Spellcaster.
In short, it's because Spontaneous requires weeks of downtime to retrain into spells that they need, versus Prepared, which can just change them the following day. This is especially great when comparing Clerics to Oracles, because Clerics can just prep spells like Remove Curse, Restoration, etc. in the following day. Oracles? They can't do that, period.
A lot of our characters suffered permanent debilitations that could not be fixed except with spells like Restoration and such. Problem is, our Oracle didn't have such spells known, and there were no scrolls or anything available to us. This was at the tail end of the 5th book, where we weren't going to have any opportunity to "retreat" to buy scrolls or otherwise get access to such spells, because doing so essentially meant we would lose in the book.
So, we were effectively forced to fight a mini-boss while super-crippled, and after having 2 of the 5 characters die as a result of being super-crippled, the other 3 simply "noped" out of the adventure (since we managed to make the mini-boss burn through their entire spell list and dip), and we ended it there. Granted, we should have TPK'd by the 2nd or 3rd book, but in that case it wouldn't have been because of different types of spellcasters.
This is a pretty apples to oranges comparison, since you're talking about divine prepared casters (who by default have access to the whole list without needing to learn those spells). This is a topic that's largely about arcane casters, who do not have that luxury.
Also, in 1E, we're talking about an area you're at after you have access to teleport, wind walk, etc. If you can't retreat and get back to that area, that's a bit bizarre.
I think people's real problems with wizard are one of three things:
1. The class is not as easy to play as other classes with either spontaneous casting or a class ability to lean on so prepared doesn't punish you as much for not being good at the whole preparing and planning thing.
2. The class abilities are not dressed up in exciting enough flavor for people and are more practical and utilitarian.
3. The wizard is no longer head and shoulders above other classes, and is now just as good as any other caster.Points 1 and 2 compound eachother making the class feel weaker than others to players who are not really good at playing wizards for whatever reason. Typically just not being aligned with the mentality of the class.
Particularly I think Derivens comments express all three points, but especially their talk about the arcane list expresses point three. The arcane list is now about as good as any other, and the examples Deriven uses just prove this point. Any time he says "well this list also gets X spell" the reverse argument is possible. Yes occult is cool, but most occult spells, especially the good ones, are on the arcane list too. Yes the primal list is good, but many of the good control and blast spells on that list are also on arcane. There are a few stand out exceptions within a spell list unique to it, or shared by each other but not arcane, and what should be said about this? Good, there needs to be a reason to be an occult caster, a divine caster, or a primal caster. Arcane gets most things the others get but gets fewer of its own stuff. This might feel bad to some, but makes wizards needing to poach lists less necessary. I also think occult is overvalued. It's a great list FS, but it has a lot of weaknesses, all lists do, except arcane which has nearly zero weaknesses. Sure it doesn't have synesthesia but others lists need good strong reasons for people to take them and for each player to point to a list and go "this list is my favorite, and it has this awesome powerful spell no one else...
The problem with the arcane list is that it takes up significantly more power budget in class design despite not actually being much stronger in practice. It's not about whether or not it's busted. It's about whether or not it actually has the power the class design assumes it has.
The problem with the arcane list is that it takes up significantly more power budget in class design despite not actually being much stronger in practice. It's not about whether or not it's busted. It's about whether or not it actually has the power the class design assumes it has.
Idk if that is "the problem" as it were. The arcane school is very generalist which is a power boost and allows arcane casters to step on more toes meaning there needs to be a reason to pick other classes so arcane gets fewer bells and whistles. The bells and whistles are in the spell list. I am personally in favor of significantly shrinking the four traditions and then giving spells to classes where appropriate with their subclasses. That isn't the case however so I'm picking the arcane list, which can do nearly everything in a myriad of ways to a greater degree than even the runner up, occult, you have to make a trade. It's perfectly fine to not like this trade ofc. Arcane has less identity and this certainly feels worse, but a splatbook or two can remedy this
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Looks like Dangerous Sorcery was moved from a class feat to a class feature. So RIP archetyping for it.someone else put up a build and prepared spells for a level 5 wizard they would use when they don't know what they would encounter that day.
That is probably the correct approach. But at a lot of tables archetyping for it is going to be possible.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Despite Deriven's obvious disdain for the wizard casters I would like to still check a few things.
Does anyone have a level 10 sorcerer build they think shows that discrepancy the most? If you use pathbuilder I can just upload it into foundry.
Its really the spell selection i would like to see that is considered all the spells a caster would actually need which obviates the entire existence of a wizard.
I have experience playing or DMing both. I have zero idea what you are trying to show. I have 3 or 4 high level sorcerers sitting around.
I have a level 20 Harrow sorcerer. A level 10 elemental sorcerer. A level 11 wizard. A level 17 dragon sorcerer. These are some characters I have laying around in my character folders.
What are you trying to prove? A generic legendary caster can do ok?
I will say im not actually doubting your experience in this.
If there is an issue with wizards its an issue in the balance of existing spells compared to each other such that a hand full of spells selected by a sorcerer at each rank is actually effectively the best load out a caster could have available. (this essentially obviates prepared casting not anything else really)
If that holds then a wizard using stealth or invisibility conceal spell and a floating eyeball rune at 500ft away and RK checks based on what they find cannot actually go back and prep slots with spell sub from a larger list of known spells to handle situations encountered better than the sorcerer with the spells they always have on hand.
I think it is an issue of boring builds and class feats myself.
Any generic legendary caster and even the arcane list can be an effective caster as they level. The system is built for it. The spells are innately powerful so a wizard casting slow is as good as a druid or sorcerer casting slow. The spells are fine. So the issue is not spells and the ability of the wizard to cast which follows standard caster progression in the same way a master martial follows standard martial progression. This is all balanced and comparative across similar classes.
So it comes down to the class features. What can you do with a class to make it a little more interesting and fun? How can you build it? What does it do that makes the class fun to play above and beyond the existing baseline legendary casting.
That's where the wizard comes up short. Its class features and feats are like bread porridge. They don't do much to enhance the class or make it in interesting.
The curriculum spells limit casting. They have some of the worst focus spells in the game. Spellshape feats don't have much impact. Reach is one of the Spellshape feats I use the most. Quicken is great that one time a day, make sure to pick the right time. Then they have feats like Scroll Adept which players likes Super Bidi just make a lot of anyway. So one of their best feats is simulated by magic items.
They don't feel very impactful their feats, focus spells, and class features compared other legendary casters.
Spells and casting are fine. That's why so many can feel fine playing a wizard. The standard caster progression works well enough to make any casting class viable.
Don't believe this in the slightest.Our group for Curse of the Crimson Throne actually TPK'd because of a Spontaneous Spellcaster instead of a Prepared one.
If that isn't enough of a reason for Prepared > Spontaneous, then nothing is.
Don't believe it if you want, but it happened for our group, and it's solely because we didn't have the benefits of a Prepared Spellcaster.
In short, it's because Spontaneous requires weeks of downtime to retrain into spells that they need, versus Prepared, which can just change them the following day. This is especially great when comparing Clerics to Oracles, because Clerics can just prep spells like Remove Curse, Restoration, etc. in the following day. Oracles? They can't do that, period.
A lot of our characters suffered permanent debilitations that could not be fixed except with spells like Restoration and such. Problem is, our Oracle didn't have such spells known, and there were no scrolls or anything available to us. This was at the tail end of the 5th book, where we weren't going to have any opportunity to "retreat" to buy scrolls or otherwise get access to such spells, because doing so essentially meant we would lose in the book.
So, we were effectively forced to fight a mini-boss while super-crippled, and after having 2 of the 5 characters die as a result of being super-crippled, the other 3 simply "noped" out of the adventure (since we managed to make the mini-boss burn through their entire spell list and dip), and we ended it there. Granted, we should have TPK'd by the 2nd or 3rd book, but in that case it wouldn't have been because of different types of spellcasters.
As expected, you did not die because you had a spontaneous caster. You died because had a badly built spontaneous caster who did not build to fulfill their group role. This is something I don't do or deal with in my group.
We know to take restoration or a similar spell and cover bases as a spontaneous caster, especially if that is our group role. All this talk of wizards in ideal situations and prepared for what's coming, but then act like a badly built spontaneous caster somehow proves something. You have to build spontaneous casters well to make them work. They are just more fun to build well.
Explain to me how a wizard helps this situation given they don't even have restoration. They also have to have the right spell in their spellbook or it takes them a while to get a particular spell. How do you not TPK if that is what caused your TPK? Sounds like you would have TPKed if you had an arcane prepared caster because that list lacked condition removal until the Remaster.
No one said clerics or druids were bad. We always have a caster who can do restoration or similar condition removal spells in our group so we don't TPK due to conditions.
This is specifically about the wizard. We're not talking about primal, occult, and divine casters who are all great whether prepared or spontaneous.
Despite Deriven's obvious disdain for the wizard casters I would like to still check a few things.
Does anyone have a level 10 sorcerer build they think shows that discrepancy the most? If you use pathbuilder I can just upload it into foundry.
Its really the spell selection i would like to see that is considered all the spells a caster would actually need which obviates the entire existence of a wizard.
I have experience playing or DMing both. I have zero idea what you are trying to show. I have 3 or 4 high level sorcerers sitting around.
I have a level 20 Harrow sorcerer. A level 10 elemental sorcerer. A level 11 wizard. A level 17 dragon sorcerer. These are some characters I have laying around in my character folders.
What are you trying to prove? A generic legendary caster can do ok?
I will say im not actually doubting your experience in this.
If there is an issue with wizards its an issue in the balance of existing spells compared to each other such that a hand full of spells selected by a sorcerer at each rank is actually effectively the best load out a caster could have available. (this essentially obviates prepared casting not anything else really)
If that holds then a wizard using stealth or invisibility conceal spell and a floating eyeball rune at 500ft away and RK checks based on what they find cannot actually go back and prep slots with spell sub from a larger list of known spells to handle situations encountered better than the sorcerer with the spells they always have on hand.I think it is an issue of boring builds and class feats myself.
Any generic legendary caster and even the arcane list can be an effective caster as they level. The system is built for it. The spells are innately powerful so a wizard casting slow is as good as a druid or sorcerer casting slow. The spells are fine. So the issue is not spells and the ability of the wizard to cast which follows standard...
See that is actually what i am pointing out about spells. Not even that I believe its 100% true, just that if prepared casting is bad in comparison to spontaneous casting then it comes right back to the spells available to the game. Prepared casting is only good if having more spells known is has a purpose you cant achieve with less spells known.
Slow is a good example.Is this spell and a hand full of other spells so universally good that all situations are sufficiently covered by just picking those spells?
If the answer is yes, then my point is made. There is no real benefit to having a larger list of spells to prepare from if a hand full of spells handle 90% of situations like everyone here is saying.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think people's real problems with wizard are one of three things:
1. The class is not as easy to play as other classes with either spontaneous casting or a class ability to lean on so prepared doesn't punish you as much for not being good at the whole preparing and planning thing.
2. The class abilities are not dressed up in exciting enough flavor for people and are more practical and utilitarian.
3. The wizard is no longer head and shoulders above other classes, and is now just as good as any other caster.Points 1 and 2 compound eachother making the class feel weaker than others to players who are not really good at playing wizards for whatever reason. Typically just not being aligned with the mentality of the class.
Particularly I think Derivens comments express all three points, but especially their talk about the arcane list expresses point three. The arcane list is now about as good as any other, and the examples Deriven uses just prove this point. Any time he says "well this list also gets X spell" the reverse argument is possible. Yes occult is cool, but most occult spells, especially the good ones, are on the arcane list too. Yes the primal list is good, but many of the good control and blast spells on that list are also on arcane. There are a few stand out exceptions within a spell list unique to it, or shared by each other but not arcane, and what should be said about this? Good, there needs to be a reason to be an occult caster, a divine caster, or a primal caster. Arcane gets most things the others get but gets fewer of its own stuff. This might feel bad to some, but makes wizards needing to poach lists less necessary. I also think occult is overvalued. It's a great list FS, but it has a lot of weaknesses, all lists do, except arcane which has nearly zero weaknesses. Sure it doesn't have synesthesia but others lists need good strong reasons for people to take them and for each player to point to a list and go "this list is my favorite, and it has this awesome powerful spell no one else...
I've made it very clear all the problems and people keep trying to change the parameters.
1. Intelligence is an uninteresting casting that doesn't provide the class fantasy of the erudite mage. No additional skill increases and even a high intelligent merely brings you parity with skills known. Not great feat support for intelligence based skills, especially at lower levels.
2. Casting is standardized. So casting more spells is fairly meaningless as you reach a point at higher level where no class runs out of spells unless they are just blowing them off for the hell of it. Everyone casts the same in PF2, so there is no advantage.
3. Spellshape feats not impactful like metamagic in PF1. This affects every caster class, but given wizards were number one with metamagic in PF1 it is very noticeable for them in PF2.
4. Not particularly interesting class feats that build upon some cool theme like untamed form for druids or divine font for clerics or bloodlines for sorcs.
5. Curriculum spells further limit casting versatiltiy.
6. Only one thesis provides real time casting versatility. The rest are sacrifice spells for more of this or that, usable spells at higher level since the fallacy that high level slots are the only good slots is provably false. Spellshape thesis impacted by the fact spellshape feats just aren't that interesting.
I've given by point breakdown of the wizard problems and it's not power or generic casting. It's a just a general boring class chassis without much impact.
Their most interesting feature to build on is Arcane Bond, which is a poor man's spontaneous casting. It at least provides a little flexibility to recall a spell you might need and can be built up a little bit, especially if unified theory.
It seems like the wizard gets worse as the player cores release. Why did sorcs and bards need more? Why did the rogue need more? Really strange.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's kinda wild to me that you bring up spontaneous casting's strengths, Deriven, and then when Darksol responds with an example of where prepared casting would've been a substantial advantage, you criticise Darksol for not talking about only wizards; you were the one who brought up the more general prepared vs spontaneous in the first place here.
Also arguing that spontaneous casting can't be criticized for that situation because the player should've already picked all the status removal spells is missing the point by focusing only on the top-tier of optimisation, IMO. I'm sure they could've picked them all, but that is often a substantial portion of the spells they could pick. Even if they were left with enough spells known to cover their other bases effectively, it's extremely limiting and encourages every spont caster of a given tradition basically always picking the same spells. That may be the most powerful choice - I honestly haven't looked into it enough to say - but my experience is that the vast majority of spontaneous casters also want to pick up some fun stuff. The last 3 spont casters at my tables have all been Occult by happenstance, and they've all got substantially different spell lists - one went for spooky spells to complement the Aberrant sorcerer theme, one went for a bunch of infestation-themed spells because they were a blighted fey, and one went for a wide array of offensive spells targeting different saves and/or buffs because they're a Warrior bard and want to primarily cast slotted spells when it's at the most successful time. All of those are fair approaches, they all contributed effectively in my games, and all of them had major areas of the Occult list that they were completely missing because of it. I don't know if you can narrow down your spontaneous caster spell choices sufficiently to effectively cover a whole tradition's set of niches, but even if you can that doesn't have to be the level of optimization that a prepared caster is compared to.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is a pretty apples to oranges comparison, since you're talking about divine prepared casters (who by default have access to the whole list without needing to learn those spells). This is a topic that's largely about arcane casters, who do not have that luxury.
Also, in 1E, we're talking about an area you're at after you have access to teleport, wind walk, etc. If you can't retreat and get back to that area, that's a bit bizarre.
It is and it isn't. The complaint has been Spontaneous > Prepared, with a focus on Wizards (because they are the de facto Prepared spellcaster), and yet, if we had a Prepared spellcaster versus a Spontaneous one, we wouldn't have been super debilitated, and we wouldn't have TPK'd at that point, which is the point that I made to say that Spontaneous isn't always superior like everyone makes it out to be.
And this was converted to PF2, so expecting PF1 rules and expectations to apply does not track. Likewise, we were on a time crunch, meaning we couldn't just teleport out, retrain, then come back. We had 3 days to finish the job, and 3 times we could rest. On the second day, we got super debilitated, couldn't fix it over night, and TPK'd as a result. So saying "Just Teleport/Fly away" doesn't work.
**EDIT** Also, to put it into perspective, we were 14th level at the time. As a Forensic Medicine Investigator with Medic dedication, I couldn't have even been able to fix the issues myself with Legendary Medic, since we haven't reached the level where I could do that.
As expected, you did not die because you had a spontaneous caster. You died because had a badly built spontaneous caster who did not build to fulfill their group role. This is something I don't do or deal with in my group.
We know to take restoration or a similar spell and cover bases as a spontaneous caster, especially if that is our group role. All this talk of wizards in ideal situations and prepared for what's coming, but then act like a badly built spontaneous caster somehow proves something. You have to build spontaneous casters well to make them work. They are just more fun to build well.
Explain to me how a wizard helps this situation given they don't even have restoration. They also have to have the right spell in their spellbook or it takes them a while to get a particular spell. How do you not TPK if that is what caused your TPK? Sounds like you would have TPKed if you had an arcane prepared caster because that list lacked condition removal until the Remaster.
No one said clerics or druids were bad. We always have a caster who can do restoration or similar condition removal spells in our group so we don't TPK due to conditions.
This is specifically about the wizard. We're not talking about primal, occult, and divine casters who are all great whether prepared or spontaneous.
Uh, you do realize that "badly built spontaneous caster" and "spontaneous caster" fit the same criteria here, when, in either situation, a prepared caster would have prevented it? Even a well-built spontaneous spellcaster couldn't overcome those odds because it would require circumventing the very thing that limits them, which is the available spells they have. Spontaneous spellcasters not having the right spells in the right situations requires way more time and gold to fix than a Prepared spellcaster does, and in situations where time and availability aren't there, you're kind of screwed.
I don't buy that you prepare specifically for negative effects because taking Counteract-based spells, even as a Spontaneous Spellcaster, is a bad idea simply due that Counteract-based spells are complete trap options, especially with the Remaster, which split them up into 4 categories instead of just encompassing it with 1 spell, making it even worse to invest character resources into. It's literally best for at-level scrolls, or if you need to change to prepare for it specifically, but that's it, and Spontaneous Spellcasters don't have access to the latter. Did I also mention that, if it's not your top tier spell slot, you have little to no chance of actually removing said negative effect, due to both higher level differentials, as well as having stupidly high DCs that make it nearly impossible to do?
This is a strawman. I never said "A Wizard would have fixed the problem," I said a Cleric would have fixed the problem compared to an Oracle that couldn't. And really, if, say, the Wizard was able to do something about it, but didn't prepare for it, Spell Substitution would nullify that problem. Do Sorcerers get that? Nope. They suffer and squirm for a week and pay gold and downtime for it.
Another strawman, and also contradictory to your claim of "Spontaneous > Prepared," since part of Druids and Clerics being good is their type of spellcasting. And again, since our group TPK'd by having a non-Prepared kind of spellcaster in that niche, it's not helping your case any. And again, I don't believe you prepare characters with the intention of being able to remove debilitating conditions from allies due to how difficult and costly it usually is, as it detracts significantly from other, more important values.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Do Sorcerers get that? Nope. They suffer and squirm for a week and pay gold and downtime for it.
Some do though. So it’s not precisely an all or nothing issue in that respect.
Also, this thread is about Wizard’s in particular.
But, on the whole, your particular example doesn’t really have anything to do with Spontaneous vs Prepared casters. Yes, having a prepared caster would have offered an out to the situation you were in, but so would several other possible options. Plus, your caster didn’t get you into those circumstances, having a different type of caster wouldn’t have altered things on that front.
It’s a very weird way to approach this conversation.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's kinda wild to me that you bring up spontaneous casting's strengths, Deriven, and then when Darksol responds with an example of where prepared casting would've been a substantial advantage, you criticise Darksol for not talking about only wizards; you were the one who brought up the more general prepared vs spontaneous in the first place here.
Also arguing that spontaneous casting can't be criticized for that situation because the player should've already picked all the status removal spells is missing the point by focusing only on the top-tier of optimisation, IMO. I'm sure they could've picked them all, but that is often a substantial portion of the spells they could pick. Even if they were left with enough spells known to cover their other bases effectively, it's extremely limiting and encourages every spont caster of a given tradition basically always picking the same spells. That may be the most powerful choice - I honestly haven't looked into it enough to say - but my experience is that the vast majority of spontaneous casters also want to pick up some fun stuff. The last 3 spont casters at my tables have all been Occult by happenstance, and they've all got substantially different spell lists - one went for spooky spells to complement the Aberrant sorcerer theme, one went for a bunch of infestation-themed spells because they were a blighted fey, and one went for a wide array of offensive spells targeting different saves and/or buffs because they're a Warrior bard and want to primarily cast slotted spells when it's at the most successful time. All of those are fair approaches, they all contributed effectively in my games, and all of them had major areas of the Occult list that they were completely missing because of it. I don't know if you can narrow down your spontaneous caster spell choices sufficiently to effectively cover a whole tradition's set of niches, but even if you can that doesn't have to be the level of optimization that a prepared caster is compared to.
The fallacy is assuming a prepared caster can't have made bad spell choices too, and that you can always buy your way to spells you need. Availability is not guaranteed; the time to learn spells is not guaranteed; and spells cost money (often a significant portion of your "currency" in the WBL for on-level spells—a level 6 spell is 140 gp of a L11 character's spare 500 gp). Player error can occur on any build.
If your point is that a wizard can fix this more of the time, that's... sort of true, but spontaneous casters can drop a spell and replace it every level up, so it's not like they're hosed forever. And frankly, I really hope GMs are willing to let sorcs retcon bad levelup choices if the player realizes fast enough; it strikes me as common courtesy, much as I'd let someone swap feats within a certain period of time after levelup if they weren't happy or misunderstood what a feat did.
If your point is that generalists are better than quirky thematic casters, well, yes. That's just how the game is made, and we've bemoaned it for the whole thread. A generalist spontaneous sorc is still stronger than a generalist wizard on the vast majority of days, though.
It is and it isn't. The complaint has been Spontaneous > Prepared, with a focus on Wizards (because they are the de facto Prepared spellcaster), and yet, if we had a Prepared spellcaster versus a Spontaneous one, we wouldn't have been super debilitated, and we wouldn't have TPK'd at that point, which is the point that I made to say that Spontaneous isn't always superior like everyone makes it out to be.
And this was converted to PF2, so expecting PF1 rules and expectations to apply does not track. Likewise, we were on a time crunch, meaning we couldn't just teleport out, retrain, then come back. We had 3 days to finish the job, and 3 times we could rest. On the second day, we got super debilitated, couldn't fix it over night, and TPK'd as a result. So saying "Just Teleport/Fly away" doesn't work.
Converting a PF1 campaign to PF2 without adjustments for the power ceiling smash is just... not a smart idea, imo. Even ignoring that, you're still high enough level for Teleport when you should get there, I think?
The only thing I can imagine is being afraid of spirit anchors being replaced, but that seems like a small price to pay in exchange for not wiping.
And again, you're wholly ignoring the fact a wizard couldn't have gone to buy spells to fix the problem here. You could've solved this problem any number of ways, but you've fixated on one that doesn't even support your argument in the context of the thread. At best you'd have an argument if this thread said clerics were bad. No one is arguing about clerics or saying they're worse than premaster oracle. This is literally a thread about wizards.
Even if you want to say this shows why prepared is better than spontaneous in general, no one has ever argued that prepared has worse day-to-day versatility. The argument is that in-day and in-combat versatility matters far more in practice, as most day-to-day versatility needs can be covered by consumables like scrolls and alchemical items. Indeed, thinking ahead to buy scrolls of the most commonly needed divine utility spell would have saved your party's bacon. You are not addressing this point at all. You're just saying a cleric would've given you a failsafe for bad planning that the oracle didn't.
Uh, you do realize that "badly built spontaneous caster" and "spontaneous caster" fit the same criteria here, when, in either situation, a prepared caster would have prevented it? Even a well-built spontaneous spellcaster couldn't overcome those odds because it would require circumventing the very thing that limits them, which is the available spells they have. Spontaneous spellcasters not having the right spells in the right situations requires way more time and gold to fix than a Prepared spellcaster does, and in situations where time and availability aren't there, you're kind of screwed.
I don't buy that you prepare specifically for negative effects because taking Counteract-based spells, even as a Spontaneous Spellcaster, is a bad idea simply due that Counteract-based spells are complete trap options, especially with the Remaster, which split them up into 4 categories instead of just encompassing it with 1 spell, making it even worse to invest character resources into. It's literally best for at-level scrolls, or if you need to change to prepare for it specifically, but that's it, and Spontaneous Spellcasters don't have access to the latter. Did I also mention that, if it's not your top tier spell slot, you have little to no chance of actually removing said negative effect, due to both higher level differentials, as well as having stupidly high DCs that make it nearly impossible to do?
This is a strawman. I never said "A Wizard would have fixed the problem," I said a Cleric would have fixed the problem compared to an Oracle that couldn't. And really, if, say, the Wizard was able to do something about it, but didn't prepare for it, Spell Substitution would nullify that problem. Do Sorcerers get that? Nope. They suffer and squirm for a week and pay gold and downtime for it.
Another strawman, and also contradictory to your claim of "Spontaneous > Prepared," since part of Druids and Clerics being good is their type of spellcasting. And again, since our group TPK'd by having a non-Prepared kind of spellcaster in that niche, it's not helping your case any. And again, I don't believe you prepare characters with the intention of being able to remove debilitating conditions from allies due to how difficult and costly it usually is, as it detracts significantly from other, more important values.
It's good practice to have a bag of resto scrolls. It's a spell you don't want to have prepared, but want to use immediately if it's needed—a perfect candidate to shunt off onto consumables. You're also missing that restoration does not require a counteract roll and does not care about the level it is cast at beyond heighten effects, making it even more ideal to push onto items and out of your spell slots.
A cleric could've prevented your wipe, but so could've better preparation. And you're conveniently ignoring all kinds of other changes that would come with swapping your oracle for a cleric, none of which I have the context to evaluate. Maybe there were days when your oracle was able to use more casts of a critical spell than a cleric would've used their slots to prepare, and that turned a fight. And so on. You can't look at only one consequence of the swap. In general, cleric is better than premaster oracle, but it's not because cleric is a prepared caster.
EDIT: And frankly, I feel like your GM had way more of a hand in this than any of the players. It seems like you were thrust into a bad situation, and not even given outs that the book says you might want. Your GM even seemingly made the chapter harder and didn't give the party anything that'd help them overcome their issues, despite that being well within their power and possibly even being narratively acceptable or sensical. I find this really frustrating.
This is why I wanted to put it in context.
What is the sorcerer build that invalidates a wizard's prepared casting in almost every situation?
What spells are in their repertoire?
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is why I wanted to put it in context.
What is the sorcerer build that invalidates a wizard's prepared casting in almost every situation?
What spells are in their repertoire?
I think that that particular phrasing is perhaps overly hyperbolic, but I think the answer you are driving at is not so much a build and rather just Arcane Evolution and its follow-ons.
Arcane Evolution gives the Sorcerer the ability to prepare a limited number of spells in a pretty dynamic way. This removes one of the key limitations of spontaneous casters, and allows the Sorcerer to mimic one of the main strengths of prepared casters - being able to have those niche spells open to them when needed.
Having a solid and diverse list of spells known is key for any spontaneous caster. The signature spell feature ensures they can have a core list of always accessible spells, while allowing them the freedom to have a little depth. Arcane Evolution massively expands that potential depth for a minimal cost.
This is why I wanted to put it in context.
What is the sorcerer build that invalidates a wizard's prepared casting in almost every situation?
What spells are in their repertoire?
I think that that particular phrasing is perhaps overly hyperbolic, but I think the answer you are driving at is not so much a build and rather just Arcane Evolution and its follow-ons.
Arcane Evolution gives the Sorcerer the ability to prepare a limited number of spells in a pretty dynamic way. This removes one of the key limitations of spontaneous casters, and allows the Sorcerer to mimic one of the main strengths of prepared casters - being able to have those niche spells open to them when needed.
Having a solid and diverse list of spells known is key for any spontaneous caster. The signature spell feature ensures they can have a core list of always accessible spells, while allowing them the freedom to have a little depth. Arcane Evolution massively expands that potential depth for a minimal cost.
Ok so a sorcerer can have all the spells they can buy or find scrolls to learn from but only use one of them at a time and only at the level they have the spell at in their book.
The other use of it is making that one spell one that is in your repertoire to make it a signature spell.Im not seeing the same level of utility. The sorcerer would have to buy the scroll for every level they want be able to cast if its not a repertoire spell.
I am not saying this isnt good, it certainly expands the sorcerers options in a big way.
This is why I wanted to put it in context.
What is the sorcerer build that invalidates a wizard's prepared casting in almost every situation?
What spells are in their repertoire?
I think the bigger factor is just how the system works and what it rewards. We've discussed it a lot in the thread, but
-Narratively powerful out of combat spells are higher ranks than before and uncommon.
-A lot of the narrative utility that does exist (comprehend languages, etc.) can be bought.
-Silver bullet spells are just slightly stronger, not downright fight-ending, as a result of the power ceiling being lowered. Many of the silver bullets that do exist can be approximated with good consumable or item purchases.
-Targeting weak saves is critical to functioning as a caster, and you end up with more options to target weak defenses as they come up as a spontaneous caster. Wizard's options are limited by what they can prepare in their slots; Sorc is limited by spells known at that level+signatures. The wizard has to have the ability to scout ahead and spell substitution to come close.
-Important buffs (flight, haste, etc.) are available in other ways for many characters. This hurts prepared relative to spontaneous, because such buffs are generically useful and do not require save targeting. They're "safe slots" to prepare, so to speak, that won't ever risk being wasted.
I had that problem with a healing Oracle lacking the appropriate condition removal that a healing Cleric could have easily handled the next day. But the situation occurred in a PF1 Jade Regent Campaign, so this is not a PF2 problem. The Cleric is designed to be the best class at random condition removal, better than the spontaneous divine casters.
In my case, Amaya of Westcrown, comment #6 (Jade Regent spoilers), mummy rot needed two spells to remove it. and the healer oracle Amaya had neither. The nearest city was two weeks away and infected Ebony Blossom suffered 1d6 Con damage and 1d6 Cha damage every day.
Ebony Blossom caught mummy rot there, so Amaya had to cast Lesser Restoration on her every morning to keep her alive. They finally leveled up from random encounters at <location redacted>, and Amaya learned Remove Disease and retrained out Communal Resist Energy for Remove Curse. Both are required to remove mummy rot. It was an odd choice for an oracle, but Ebony Blossom was a friend in need.
One weird twist was that Amaya had a need for Remove Disease again before she retrained the spell away. She ended up keeping it.
This reminds me of a situation in my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign. The players realized that they would need curse removal to deal with the darkblight in Prisoners of the Blight. The party healers were two primal casters: a druid and a sorcerer. The only curse removal of their level is the divine-or-occult 4th-rank Remove Curse spell. Fortunately, the druid had multiclassed to cleric, but could cast divine spells only up to 3rd level. Forewarned, the party obtained a Wand of Remove Curse that the druid/cleric could use.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's kinda wild to me that you bring up spontaneous casting's strengths, Deriven, and then when Darksol responds with an example of where prepared casting would've been a substantial advantage, you criticise Darksol for not talking about only wizards; you were the one who brought up the more general prepared vs spontaneous in the first place here.
Also arguing that spontaneous casting can't be criticized for that situation because the player should've already picked all the status removal spells is missing the point by focusing only on the top-tier of optimisation, IMO. I'm sure they could've picked them all, but that is often a substantial portion of the spells they could pick. Even if they were left with enough spells known to cover their other bases effectively, it's extremely limiting and encourages every spont caster of a given tradition basically always picking the same spells. That may be the most powerful choice - I honestly haven't looked into it enough to say - but my experience is that the vast majority of spontaneous casters also want to pick up some fun stuff. The last 3 spont casters at my tables have all been Occult by happenstance, and they've all got substantially different spell lists - one went for spooky spells to complement the Aberrant sorcerer theme, one went for a bunch of infestation-themed spells because they were a blighted fey, and one went for a wide array of offensive spells targeting different saves and/or buffs because they're a Warrior bard and want to primarily cast slotted spells when it's at the most successful time. All of those are fair approaches, they all contributed effectively in my games, and all of them had major areas of the Occult list that they were completely missing because of it. I don't know if you can narrow down your spontaneous caster spell choices sufficiently to effectively cover a whole tradition's set of niches, but even if you can that doesn't have to be the level of optimization that a prepared caster is compared to.
In every wizard discussion, it's ideal circumstances where the wizard has some particular spell to fix the problem. If the wizard is argued under ideal circumstances, then so should the spontaneous caster.
Both should be as well built with as ideal a spell selection as possible.
You don't get to argue about the wizard having an ideal spell at an ideal time while the spontaneous caster is some bad build that lacks key spells to do the job.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As expected, you did not die because you had a spontaneous caster. You died because had a badly built spontaneous caster who did not build to fulfill their group role. This is something I don't do or deal with in my group.
We know to take restoration or a similar spell and cover bases as a spontaneous caster, especially if that is our group role. All this talk of wizards in ideal situations and prepared for what's coming, but then act like a badly built spontaneous caster somehow proves something. You have to build spontaneous casters well to make them work. They are just more fun to build well.
Explain to me how a wizard helps this situation given they don't even have restoration. They also have to have the right spell in their spellbook or it takes them a while to get a particular spell. How do you not TPK if that is what caused your TPK? Sounds like you would have TPKed if you had an arcane prepared caster because that list lacked condition removal until the Remaster.
No one said clerics or druids were bad. We always have a caster who can do restoration or similar condition removal spells in our group so we don't TPK due to conditions.
This is specifically about the wizard. We're not talking about primal, occult, and divine casters who are all great whether prepared or spontaneous.
Uh, you do realize that "badly built spontaneous caster" and "spontaneous caster" fit the same criteria here, when, in either situation, a prepared caster would have prevented it? Even a well-built spontaneous spellcaster couldn't overcome those odds because it would require circumventing the very thing that limits them, which is the available spells they have. Spontaneous spellcasters not having the right spells in the right situations requires way more time and gold to fix than a Prepared spellcaster does, and in situations where time and availability aren't there, you're kind of screwed.
I don't buy that you prepare specifically for negative effects because taking...
And in every situation I play a spontaneous caster, this has never occurred. You keep looking for some niche situation to prove some point that never comes up with people who know how to build spontaneous casters.
That's every wizard debate thread: niche situations. That's every spontaneous versus prepared thread: niche situations. All anecdotal evidence to prove what? That a prepared caster can fix a problem with a day of preparation compared to a spontaneous caster that chooses their spell selection poorly?
Ok, point proven. If a spontaneous caster picks their spells badly, it is easier for a prepared caster to make a correction.
Lucky for my players, I made every single caster spontaneous. So it is not a concern in my campaigns.
The saddest part is even making the wizard a spontaneous caster with free Spell Substitution and another thesis, they still don't get played because other class's class features are more attractive. I have turned the wizards in my campaign into spontaneous sorcerers who can change out spells and my players still don't enjoy the class. I don't know what else I can do to make them better and more competitive with other casters and classes at this point. I'm at the end of my rope trying to make the wizard a class people want to play in my campaign. I just find it sad that this iconic class, my favorite D&D class, is some class that no one wants to play any more. Decades of wizard characters in my games and no one wants to play one up any longer. It feels wrong.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is why I wanted to put it in context.
What is the sorcerer build that invalidates a wizard's prepared casting in almost every situation?
What spells are in their repertoire?
I think that that particular phrasing is perhaps overly hyperbolic, but I think the answer you are driving at is not so much a build and rather just Arcane Evolution and its follow-ons.
Arcane Evolution gives the Sorcerer the ability to prepare a limited number of spells in a pretty dynamic way. This removes one of the key limitations of spontaneous casters, and allows the Sorcerer to mimic one of the main strengths of prepared casters - being able to have those niche spells open to them when needed.
Having a solid and diverse list of spells known is key for any spontaneous caster. The signature spell feature ensures they can have a core list of always accessible spells, while allowing them the freedom to have a little depth. Arcane Evolution massively expands that potential depth for a minimal cost.
Ok so a sorcerer can have all the spells they can buy or find scrolls to learn from but only use one of them at a time and only at the level they have the spell at in their book.
The other use of it is making that one spell one that is in your repertoire to make it a signature spell.
Im not seeing the same level of utility. The sorcerer would have to buy the scroll for every level they want be able to cast if its not a repertoire spell.
I am not saying this isnt good, it certainly expands the sorcerers options in a big way.
Not really. Sorcs have a lot of very good feats for managing spell choice.
1. Arcane: An Arcane sorcerer has a spellbook. They can change out one spell a day like a wizard or make an additional spell a signature spell.
2. Occult Evolution: Occult has an evolution that allows them to pick any spell with the mental trait after 1 minute of prep. This spell becomes a part of their repertoire for the day.
3. Primal Evolution: Free summon plant or animal spell one time per day.
4. Divine Evolution: Free top level heal per day.
You rarely need to change out that many spells. You have to focus on picking high value spells each level. You get one bloodline spell, then 3 spells you will pick each level to know you can cast with any combination using four slots. Then apply your feat choices.
Then you have Cross Blooded Evolution which allows you to grab a spell from any list.
Then you can change out a spell every even level or whatever. You can change spells as you level and gain access making other spells obsolete or unnecessary retooling your spell list as you level.
Then at level 16 you get Mental Evolution, which allows you to add another spell for a total of five spells known per level you can use with any of your four slots.
Then couple that with magic items like scrolls, staves, and wands, you can cover every base fine.
At level 18 you can pick up Greater Cross-Blooded evolution which allows you to poach up to three spells from any list.
There is this idea by prepared casters that you need to change out spells very often. You don't. You need to pick quality spells in your slots and you're good with rare niche exceptions. With 45 total spells to choose from 1 to 9, you don't feel deprived of spell options. With Arcane or Occult evolution, you can even grab some useful spells on the fly.
Arcane is straight up like a wizard for one spell a day.
Occult I usually use for interrogation or charm or some mental spell that will be useful at a given time. I grab a mental spell as needed. There are a ton of quality mental spells on the occult list.
I don't have any problem lacking spells as a sorc caster. It doesn't come up with that many spells known.
I wasnt asking a rhetorical question about what spell repertoire a sorcerer needs to invalidate a wizard.
That is exactly what I want to test against the wizard against a variety of encounters. better if others share them along with how they would run them to get other perspectives.
So far for the sorcerer from what has been suggested the feats to level 10 would be:
Dangerous Sorcery
Arcane Evolution
Advanced Bloodline
Crossblooded Evolution
Greater Bloodline
Ok so a sorcerer can have all the spells they can buy or find scrolls to learn from but only use one of them at a time and only at the level they have the spell at in their book.
The other use of it is making that one spell one that is in your repertoire to make it a signature spell.
Im not seeing the same level of utility. The sorcerer would have to buy the scroll for every level they want be able to cast if its not a repertoire spell.
I am not saying this isnt good, it certainly expands the sorcerers options in a big way.
I think a better way to look at this from another angle is that thanks to scrolls, wands, staves, spellhearts, and other magic items like prayer beads, all spellcasters are prepared casters. (and the more books that keep coming out, the more spells-in-items that get added)
With a bit of gold and thought, you can keep any niche spell you think you might need on standby, which is the supposed perk of prepared casters. Not only that, but the items will never spoil with time, and at the worst case can be resold for 50% cash back.
This effectively means that every caster has the benefits of prepared casting.
To be honest, one of the largest shocks when first being introduced to pf2 as a system was seeing just how little the game cares about players just buying spells and effective spellslots via items. The system even had this mechanic where you can only use so many magic items, but most of those ways to get spells did not invoke it.
It seemed crazy then, and to be honest, it's still crazy now. Spell scrolls are absurdly cheap. And even some wands can eventually get beyond the uses:gp threshold to outpace their scroll counterpart (especially if the wand is being swung off-screen for RP purposes, like Marvelous Mount).
While all casters can "prepare" specific spells, the reverse is not true. This alone means that spontaneous casters have a unique edge that prepared do not.
I was thinking of using the lump sum for the level to gear up the sorcerer and the wizard. Thats all they get for the test. Have to make all decisions of what to buy without knowing what the encounters will be.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's every wizard debate thread: niche situations. That's every spontaneous versus prepared thread: niche situations. All anecdotal evidence to prove what? That a prepared caster can fix a problem with a day of preparation compared to a spontaneous caster that chooses their spell selection poorly?
Situationally useful options are niche situations *by definition*.
I greatly prefer playing Spontaneous casters, but I will assert that if a Spontaneous caster has a large enough Spell Repertoire that it is *impossible* for a Prepared caster with advance information to prepare a better loadout than an optimized Spontaneous caster, then the class design of the Spontaneous casters are flawed and Spontaneous casters are overpowered.