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So I've run into this issue twice now first as a shamen now as a alchemist. Shamen (SU) and Alchemist (EX)
Alchemist says:
The alchemist gains batlike, birdlike, or insectlike functional wings, allowing him to fly as the fly spell for a number of minutes per day equal to his caster level. These minutes do not need to be consecutive, but they must be spent in 1-minute increments. An alchemist can select this discovery multiple times; each time he does so, he adds his caster level to the number of minutes per day that he can fly with the wings. This flight is an extraordinary ability. An alchemist must be at least 6th level before selecting this discovery.
Shamen says:
Lure of the Heavens (Su): The shaman’s connection to the skies above is so strong that her feet barely touch the ground. At 1st level, she no longer leaves tracks. At 5th level, she can hover up to 6 inches above the ground or liquid surfaces. At 10th level, the shaman gains the ability to fly (as the spell) for a number of minutes per day equal to her shaman level—the duration does not need to be consecutive, but it must be used in 1-minute increments.
In Both examples it says you can FLY (as the spell) which I assume is so they don't list all the fly information but in both situations you are not casting a spell, you are just using an ability you have. My main question is in order for the character to fly do they need to use a standard action in order to FLY or can they do so as part of the movement? I can find no offical ruling in this.
As always, refer to the spell being referenced:
... Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. ...
If you are able to cast spells or attack normally while flying, it does not use up a standard action. Therefor, it is merely movement, and would use your move action.
You are correct that you are not using an action to make use of the abilities in question. You possess those abilities already and merely activate them when you choose to fly. Alchemists with the ability actually have physical wings. Shamans with the ability are actually so light that they don't leave tracks and can float continuously. Flying is merely a greater manifestation of that (continuous) ability that they have limited duration use of.
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DeathlessOne is correct, flying is part of a move action.
But there is a catch: you need to be able to acct to fly, even if it is a supernatural ability and flying for you is a mental action.
Flight and Magical Flight: Can a paralyzed or stunned creature keep flying with magical flight? Does a creature with magical flight not apply bonuses or penalties to Fly checks because it doesn’t have a “natural” fly speed? Does flying make a creature immune to being flat-footed?
No, any creature that loses all actions can’t take an action to attempt a Fly check to hover in place and thus automatically falls. That includes a paralyzed, stunned, or dazed creature. Magical flight doesn’t act any differently, even for paralysis, as it isn’t a purely mental action. A creature with 0 Dexterity can’t fly, and paralysis sets a creature’s Dexterity to 0. Despite the fact that the Fly skill mentions that bonuses and penalties from maneuverability apply to creatures with natural fly speeds, they apply for any fly speed. If they didn’t apply to creatures that gained flight artificially or through magic, then those maneuverabilities (like the listed good maneuverability for the fly spell) would have no game effect. Finally, the statement “You are not considered flat-footed while flying” means that flying (unlike balancing using Acrobatics or climbing) doesn’t automatically make you flat-footed or force you to lose your Dexterity bonus to AC; it doesn’t mean that flying makes you immune to being caught flat-footed.
You need to use a standard action to activate the ability, but otherwise once it's activated you have a Fly speed and can fly with a move action.
The Fly Skill list Hovering as requiring a DC 15 Fly check. If you can succeed that, then you can hover in place without moving, and therefor can hover in place without taking any actions at all.
Because the Fly spell grants Good mobility (+4 to Fly checks) and a bonus to fly checks equal to half your caster level (at least +3) you're already most of the way there. Skill checks to do not automatically fail on a roll of 1, so if you can get to +14 Fly you just automatically succeed
I suspect it would be classed as "not an action" since it is done as part of another action
There are plenty of older discussions on this, including SKR (back when he was a dev) saying "not an action".
Sorry maybe I was not clear in the overall question, But do I have to use a standard to active the fly was my question.
Not to maintain Flying once I'm flying I'm done, it does reference the spell but I'm not using the cast time the spell has listed and in most of these abilities it clearly will mention actions required. It should say "...allowing him, as a standard action, to fly..." if it still required a standard to pull off it honestly doesn't seem munch improved over just using the spell itself (and in both example it's on the spell list)if it does other then the fact that you can turn it on and off and would be completely replaced by the cast of overland flight
As always, refer to the spell being referenced:
... Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. ...If you are able to cast spells or attack normally while flying, it does not use up a standard action. Therefor, it is merely movement, and would use your move action.
You are correct that you are not using an action to make use of the abilities in question. You possess those abilities already and merely activate them when you choose to fly. Alchemists with the ability actually have physical wings. Shamans with the ability are actually so light that they don't leave tracks and can float continuously. Flying is merely a greater manifestation of that (continuous) ability that they have limited duration use of.
So in your opinion it would not take a standard to active the ability?
There are plenty of older discussions on this, including SKR (back when he was a dev) saying "not an action".
Can you link some?
The first search result for "wings discovery" under "rules questions" is https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n7kz?Alchemist-Wings-Discovery#1
Activating a supernatural ability takes a standard action by default, unless it specifies otherwise.
But the extraordinary ability is more vague.
Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
I would say that since the flying doesn’t seem to be reactive, you have to activate it as a standard action too. But there’s some wiggle room for arguing that.
I think Melkiador is mostly there.
The shaman ability is a supernatural (Su), and there's established rules saying those are a standard to activate unless stated otherwise.
But... I think the reading of the (Ex) extraordinary ability is off, though you may get table variance. I take "in a reactive fashion" as including the PC reacting to a situation and deciding to use their ability.
Take the barbarian fast movement ability. It's an (Ex). Nothing says anything about actions to activate it and I've never even almost heard of a DM making a player spend any action of activating it if the barbarian wakes up or regains consciousness. It's on if you want it to be on. And not a word suggests it's a reaction to anything except the barbarian's desire.
I would rule that (Ex) works the opposite of (Su). It's always available unless a specific ability says that there's an action cost to activate it.
I think this is pretty consistent with the spirit of these abilities as well. The shaman is summoning up magical ability to become able to fly. The alchemist has wings; they can just use them, like legs... until they get too tired to get off the ground, having run out of rounds per day.
I don’t think fast movement is a good example because it’s an unlimited ability. You can activate it once and it then lasts forever.
For an su version of that we have wings of air from the kineticist.
The air bends to your will, allowing you to soar to great heights. You are constantly under the effects of fly. If this effect is dispelled, you can call it forth again as a standard action.
The kineticist doesn’t usually need to activate the flight because it is always on already. It’s not limited by uses or time.
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The alchemist uses wings to fly (even if they can support him only for some minute every day), so it should be part of his movement.
Sadly the ability is badly written, as it is easy to read it as "the alchemist has permanent wings that allow him to flay" or as "the alchemist can, on command, sprout wings that allow him to fly". The second version would require a standard action to activate, but will avoid the problem of forever having an extra appendage.
The Shama has a similar problem: the level 1 and level 5 abilities are always active. The level 10 ability is an evolution of the previous ones, with a limited duration, but no clear activation. To me it seems more like an "I want to continue my movement flaying" than an "I want to activate my Fly ability".
YMMV, I doubt you will find a consensus, as the rules are unclear.
So in your opinion it would not take a standard to active the ability?
This is correct. Neither of the abilities in question give you an ability that needs to be activated. They are continuous effects (wings or being very, very light). Both abilities grant you a fly speed that has a limited duration use. Using the fly speed is not an action, but part of your move action.
I am sure others may disagree with me on this. That is fine.
If you want any kind of supporting evidence, it is no issue to look at an ability that has been around since the Core Books. The sorcerer draconic bloodline 15th level power, Wings. It requires a standard action to grow the wings. If the writers (designers) intended for the alchemist wings or the heaven spirit to require a standard action to make use of the flight, they had an example set before them to reference.
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So in your opinion it would not take a standard to active the ability?This is correct. Neither of the abilities in question give you an ability that needs to be activated. They are continuous effects (wings or being very, very light). Both abilities grant you a fly speed that has a limited duration use. Using the fly speed is not an action, but part of your move action.
I am sure others may disagree with me on this. That is fine.
If you want any kind of supporting evidence, it is no issue to look at an ability that has been around since the Core Books. The sorcerer draconic bloodline 15th level power, Wings. It requires a standard action to grow the wings. If the writers (designers) intended for the alchemist wings or the heaven spirit to require a standard action to make use of the flight, they had an example set before them to reference.
While I agree with you, it is strange that the Wings discovery doesn't say anything about them being noticeable when not in use.
Probably the author thought it was self-evident.
I believe that the 2 situations are different.
It should be noted that the Shaman's Lure of the Heavens ability is a hex, and the Hex class ability explicitly states that "Using a Hex is a standard action that doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity unless otherwise noted.". This reinforces the general rules for Supernatural abilities.
So from a RAW perspective, activating the "ability to cast fly... for a number of minutes..." takes a standard action. Obviously you can change this for your table, but this is consistent with how we ran it in our group when we had Witch with the Flight hex.
For the alchemist however, the discovery gives them a permanent set of "functional wings, allowing him to fly... for a number of minutes..." as an Extraordinary ability, which are "usually not an action". So it's pretty clear that by RAW, the winged alchemist doesn't need to use an action to start flying.
YMMV.
While I agree with you, it is strange that the Wings discovery doesn't say anything about them being noticeable when not in use.
Probably the author thought it was self-evident.
I figured that growing the wings, and no language about dismissing them or concealing them, made it clear that the wings were fairly obvious to onlookers even when they aren't in use. It does lack the language that the vestigial arm and tentacle discoveries have about being hard to conceal, so I'm guessing it was an oversight or the wings are easier to conceal under a typical cloak without too much effort.
So from a RAW perspective, activating the "ability to cast fly... for a number of minutes..." takes a standard action. Obviously you can change this for your table, but this is consistent with how we ran it in our group when we had Witch with the Flight hex.
Except, there is no language for the 'ability to cast fly' in the hex entry. It merely says you "the shaman gains the ability to fly (as the spell) for a number of minutes per day equal to her shaman level". It would be a Spell-Like Ability if it was meant to exactly mimic the full mechanics of the fly spell. See the Witch hex "Flight" for very specific differences in language. A witch with Flight CAN CAST levitate once per day, and can fly (as per the spell)... not CAN CAST Fly.
Break it down: What does the shaman get? The ability to fly. Okay, how does the flying work? See the "Fly" spell. Okay, whats the limitations? One minute increments based on shaman level.
Hexes that require an action to use default to a standard action. The Lure of the Heavens is a passive hex that is always functional. There are many hexes like that.
Hex activations are usually “used” instead of “cast” The witch fly hex is really weird for giving you the supernatural ability to cast an actual spell, levitate. That was probably an oversight. But that is how it is worded.
Short answer for PF1, no it doesn't require an action.
But if you look at PF2 it probably should require some sort of action for balance. But the action economy of PF1 doesn't make it so easy.
Then again, depending on how you feel maybe spending a move action to hover (or move) while flying would make the game more balanced.
Wouldn't be the worst idea ever.
So from a RAW perspective, activating the "ability to cast fly... for a number of minutes..." takes a standard action. Obviously you can change this for your table, but this is consistent with how we ran it in our group when we had Witch with the Flight hex.Except, there is no language for the 'ability to cast fly' in the hex entry. It merely says you "the shaman gains the ability to fly (as the spell) for a number of minutes per day equal to her shaman level". It would be a Spell-Like Ability if it was meant to exactly mimic the full mechanics of the fly spell. See the Witch hex "Flight" for very specific differences in language. A witch with Flight CAN CAST levitate once per day, and can fly (as per the spell)... not CAN CAST Fly.
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Hexes that require an action to use default to a standard action. The Lure of the Heavens is a passive hex that is always functional. There are many hexes like that.
Ah my bad, looks like the source I was using had different wording from the SRD.
Given the actual wording, I'm inclined to agree with your position that Lure of the Heavens is a passive hex and doesn't require an action to activate.
Short answer for PF1, no it doesn't require an action.
But if you look at PF2 it probably should require some sort of action for balance. But the action economy of PF1 doesn't make it so easy.
Then again, depending on how you feel maybe spending a move action to hover (or move) while flying would make the game more balanced.
Wouldn't be the worst idea ever.
The Fly skill has many of the rules for flight, and hovering (remaining flying without moving at least half your speed) does require a Fly check, regardless of the source of the flight, magical or otherwise (unless specific text in the spell or ability overwrites this). Hovering is a DC 15 Fly check, though it isn't an action in and of itself.
This can be somewhat difficult if you haven't actually taken ranks in the Fly skill.
Ah my bad, looks like the source I was using had different wording from the SRD.
Given the actual wording, I'm inclined to agree with your position that Lure of the Heavens is a passive hex and doesn't require an action to activate.
No worries. At this point, I always default to Archives of Nethys for looking at the rules. Its easier than keeping up with errata or alternate sources that incorporate 3rd party into the site.
Short answer for PF1, no it doesn't require an action.
But if you look at PF2 it probably should require some sort of action for balance. But the action economy of PF1 doesn't make it so easy.
Then again, depending on how you feel maybe spending a move action to hover (or move) while flying would make the game more balanced.
Wouldn't be the worst idea ever.
The Fly skill has many of the rules for flight, and hovering (remaining flying without moving at least half your speed) does require a Fly check, regardless of the source of the flight, magical or otherwise (unless specific text in the spell or ability overwrites this). Hovering is a DC 15 Fly check, though it isn't an action in and of itself.
This can be somewhat difficult if you haven't actually taken ranks in the Fly skill.
Yes, on a character that has put no investment into Flying skill and has low dex chances are that they will not be able to hover. In my experience, those characters are ones who are rarely flying in the first place, and honestly are the ones I worry about less in terms of "creating problems" for the campaign. Players off characters who fly frequently tend to be aware of the hover rule, and usually have some investment into it. And honestly, magic items that will give you a bonus to flying are relatively cheap and easily accessible after a certain point in a typical game. Not to mention the fly spell gives a bonus to the fly skill.
Which I guess is a long way of saying, I've never had the hover rule be a serious impediment for a player.
Which I guess is a long way of saying, I've never had the hover rule be a serious impediment for a player.
Oh, its great fun when someone attempts to fly around in strong wind conditions. Or the enemy decides to check the PCs ability to fly with wind spells.
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{comments on starting/initializing spells/spell effects}Fly is a form of movement, like Speed, Burrow, Swim.
{comments on wings and such}
it's been about starting(instantiation), movement(which of course takes a move action), and other stuff.
I'd like to point out that fliers have to spend a move action each round or fall (spellcasters have options). A 5ft step is Fly DC 10, hover Fly DC 15 which gets incorporated into Full attack actions. Once in a blue moon natural filers will fail the DC on a charge or flyby attack...
Fly skill relies on Dex and a few invested ranks. People that don't do the latter can experience unexpected turbulence .The wind spells... well, go for it as they're mostly a tactical delaying move. Summoning a large/huge air elemental (or the usual fireball response) might be more effective.
Your post is worded a little confusingly, but I want to point out that you can hover as a non-action, the only "difficult" part is meeting the DC. You can also 5ft step with the typical cost of making a 5ft step, but again have to make a fly check (at a DC lower than hover).
I point this out because if you actually had to spend a move or standard action every turn while flying, it would be much more balanced. As I consider flying in PF2 to be much more balanced because of the action cost.
Action: None. A Fly check doesn’t require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
So, I guess hover can't take an action because there is no action to attach it to. It's just a reaction to the situation of being in the air.
But you're still incorrect.
Flying characters can hover, it's not action and not attached to any movement or other action.
Assuming all situations don't have additional issues, like high winds:
Flying at least half your movement speed means you don't need to make additional fly checks, but does cost you movement.
You can fly less than half you movement (5ft step qualifies) but need to make a DC 10 skill check.
You can hover, no movement, but need to make a DC 15 skill check.
But you're still incorrect. ...I think you're just hung up on using only technical Game terms (in my Rules forum post) and my post is more conversational (using common terms). It's why I edited to 'some sort of move' rather than 'a move action'. I clearly consider hovering in your square a move(common usage term) which requires a fly check even if the character chooses a delay action. Other than that we agree. The Game assumes a PC is going to take some sort of action every turn during combat even if it is a delay(or delayed action) which can be nothing but standing there. I don't like the implication that as a non-action the check doesn't need to be made or (that as an abuse) the GM could ask for 10000 checks a round.
The Game simplifies facing and moving in your square to no action but there's a difference between flying and staying aloft from walking(speed) and staying in your square. So a fly check is needed when staying in a square during flight (as that's hovering) to stay aloft. I believe RAW casts the check as a non-action as the Game doesn't want PCs expending actions to do nothing.
I think we're on the same page then, but using the word "move" is "dangerous" (not exactly what I want to say but I can't think of a better one at this moment) because people will think of move actions.