Hirelings in combat?

[The Ronyon]

I know you can pay them to go adventuring with you, but what about combat?
Having someone raise a tower sheild,take cover,and m9ve as directed seems worth 2 silver a day.

Related question,can two or more characters share a Mount?

[HammerJack]

Hirelings in combat would definitely be a "this is up to a GM to decide how/if they wanna handle that". The rulebooks have got no support for you.

There are also no rules to support sharing a mount. (There really aren't rules about any mount-related edge cases. The mount rules are barebones at best.)

[moosher12]

The rulebooks do not offer much support in regards to hirelings in combat. There are three approaches a GM might consider as home rule solutions:

1. The combat is an abstraction, and the hirelings are moving as appropriate, but their presence is not significant enough to the combat unless the enemy is specifically wanting to target them. Therefore the players and the GM can treat the hireling as there, without putting them on the board.

2. They can fight, even get their own turn, but at higher levels, a hireling of course would struggle to survive. And hirelings that could better survive might be more expensive. I would also caution against any GM allowing more than 1 hireling to operate this way per party in a single encounter. It really bogs down things to have more than the one. But the GM gets control of them in this case as a friendly NPC on the field.

3. As 2. But instead, a GM might apply minion rules to them. This might offer more room for more hirelings to be on the field, as they operate on the player's turn. But it would eat into a player's action economy to maintain the. But that depends on whether the GM is okay with passing control to the player over the hireling.

[Finoan]

Yeah, for hirelings in combat we are deep into houserule territory here.

For game balance and mechanics likely the most balanced option would be an archetype based on Beastmaster that lets you control a humanoid minion. The morality and ethics questions and problems that this immediately raises is enough to make me stop the homebrew process right there though.

[Farien]

Down with oppression! Equal rights for Familiars!

[Eoran]

*sigh*

I am going to have to forego giving you speech again tomorrow.

[Farien]

See how oppressed I am!?

[moosher12]

Finoan wrote:

Yeah, for hirelings in combat we are deep into houserule territory here.

For game balance and mechanics likely the most balanced option would be an archetype based on Beastmaster that lets you control a humanoid minion. The morality and ethics questions and problems that this immediately raises is enough to make me stop the homebrew process right there though.

Can always add an edict/anathema clause that allows a hireling to break away or ignore orders if they don't like the way they are treated.

[Perpdepog]

I always assumed that was a given, and that it's a given for animal companions/familiars, for that matter. They're thinking beings, outside of Mindless examples like some of the undead companions; it seems perfectly reasonable that they'd just leave if the person meant to be in charge of them and minding their well-being and upkeep isn't doing those things.

The Ronyon wrote:

Having someone raise a tower sheild,take cover,and m9ve as directed seems worth 2 silver a day.

Case and point. Two silver daily wage is the same amount of money you gain from a level 1 Earn Income task; people make that much serving tea in a teahouse. If someone tried offering me that kind of money to get into an active battle situation I'd know they didn't have my best interests at heart and would walk in the opposite direction as quickly as possible.

[TSandman]

Perpdepog wrote:

Case and point. Two silver daily wage is the same amount of money you gain from a level 1 Earn Income task; people make that much serving tea in a teahouse. If someone tried offering me that kind of money to get into an active battle situation I'd know they didn't have my best interests at heart and would walk in the opposite direction as quickly as possible.

Even if it's only to tend to the camp/mounts outside the dungeon/evil wizard secret hideout, it would need to be higher, as brigands might be roaming, or local wildlife could be at a level they're not to be triffled with.

"What? You want me to wait for you outside the Lich Tower for only 5sp? You *are* aware that we've encoutered roaming undead a feu times already, right?!"

... could be an interesting job for lower levels pcs... their patrons get the Great stuff (way overleveled for the pcs) and "throw away" the older stuff (level appropriate to the pcs) as "hand-me-downs" or as "payment for protecting the horses & base camp from marauding monsters" that the pcs slew, after having to build a defensive position or whatnot...

they could be apprentices, simple man-at-arm payed to "cleanup" the "small fry", etc, effectively giving all pcs mentors..e

[Castilliano]

Not sure how they're going to feel when you start pulling in chests of gold while they have mere silver. And they probably felt as much (or more) at risk of dying than the PCs. Even though they should recognize the PCs contributed more, if they gave their best their going to want a share of the spoils. (Unless we're talking about lantern bearers & load bearers.)

I remember when my players had rescued a bunch of prisoners (about the level of an enemy minion) and armed them as impromptu hirelings. One in particular contributed as much as a guest PC since he rolled so exceptionally well, like ridiculously so, such are dice. While the players knew it was a fluke, they knew their PCs would think they'd rescued a combat veteran so played it like he was their peer. Quite funny, had to give the guy a name, and he ended up getting a larger share of the loot (not that there had been a trove that excursion). I regret forgetting what happened to him.

Which is to say, if the hireling lands the killing blow on the boss...

Several older editions had half-shares as the norm for henchman and wages for hirelings. Though the line between the two became blurry at times, it generally came down to whether they could operate normally in combat. Skilled folk, i.e. Ranger & Rogues, might charge more for their expertise.
And spellcasters, by default they outright refused to accompany parties into danger, charging heavy fees even to near the fringe of danger (though IMO that was for meta reasons as even below-level casters can contribute to high level parties with buffs and unique utility).

[Farien]

Castilliano wrote:

Not sure how they're going to feel when you start pulling in chests of gold while they have mere silver. And they probably felt as much (or more) at risk of dying than the PCs. Even though they should recognize the PCs contributed more, if they gave their best their going to want a share of the spoils.

. . .

[Eoran]

My familiar would like to mention that he is capable of returning to service the following day if he dies, while most familiars, animal companions, and hirelings are not.

He is also now requesting a share of treasure, though I am uncertain what he intends to spend it on.

[Farien]

. . .

[Eoran]

Well, I am not going to say it in that manner.

And Touch Telepathy is a reasonable compromise.

[The Ronyon]

Thanks for the replies.
Clearly there are both game balance and in world reasons that hirelings dint really belong in combat.

As for sharing a mount with another PC, it's really a shame there are no rules for it.
Rescuing someone by sweeping them onto the back of your mount is a fantasy staple.

I think a Small PC on a Large mount is roughly like a human on an elephant.
Human passengers on elephants are pretty much cargo that has no influence on the elephant and hunting from howadas was common enough.
I see that shooting from a vehicle that has just moved has a penalty of -2 or -4 depending on how unpredictable the movement was.
I did not see any penalties listed for spellcasters.
Commanding my animal companion battle taxi into combat with a smol caster buddy along for the ride certainly appeals to me.

In some circumstances a vehicle could be used.
In most circumstances, movement would be halfed,but if you are Commanding a Companion to move twice and you get to move two or more PCs, that seems like a fair deal.
Does vehicle pulled by an Animal Companion make piloting checks the sane way as one pulled by a mere animal?
What about one pulled by a Large sized PC?

[Finoan]

The Ronyon wrote:

As for sharing a mount with another PC, it's really a shame there are no rules for it.

Rescuing someone by sweeping them onto the back of your mount is a fantasy staple.

Yes. The game rules are the fallback. The rules are there to prevent unfun. The most fun way of playing the game isn't to always follow the rules exactly.

In this case, this reminds me of the rules regarding size, space, and reach. A creature only needs to occupy its entire space during combat. When out of combat, medium sized humans don't actually need to take up an entire 5 foot wide square of space.

So I would allow the same for riding a mount. In special circumstances and for short periods of time (and for plot/trope reasons, not as a general houserule - the players have to ask again each time they want to do it) I would allow multiple riders on a mount as long as neither the mount or any of the riders are engaging in combat.

[Qaianna]

‘Flee screaming’ is a valid response to combat. If they’re carrying important stuff, that’s a problem.

Honestly, I wouldn’t rely on a hireling past level one. These people aren’t on a suicide mission.

[Mathmuse]

My players have not taken hirelings on missions, though in the PF1 Iron Gods campaign they had hirelings running the businesses that they established in their hometown Torch.

Nevertheless, we have had plenty of NPCs in the party. The PF1 Leadership feat adds an NPC cohort serving the party (this feat is considered overpowered). The Jade Regent campaign begins as an escort quest for an NPC and also one PC's wife came along as an NPC. Iron Gods had a rescued NPC Dewey tagging along with the party after the Technic League took over his hometown. Eventually Dewey realized that tagging along could be fatal, so he retired to helping run a business in Torch. And that campaign had Val Baine as an NPC full party member. In Ironfang Invasion the party had Ekhinos, one of the last minotaurs surviving from Assualt on Longshadow, traveling with the party because otherwise he would return to the Ironfang Legion in disgrace. After A Fistful of Flowers and A Few Flowers More I made another quest based on the Scarlet Pimpernel (he was a pimpernel leshy, of course) and a fourth quest based on The Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven. Both the Scarlet Pimpernel and the villagers served as NPCs in the party. Just a few weeks ago, in a Strength of Thousands class-trip side quest, the 2nd-level party, a fellow student in the Magaambya Academy, and their 6th-level teacher and 6th-level boatman fought a Will-o'Wisp to help a Mwangi village.

These NPCs fought alongside the party, though Ekhinos bowed out of any fights against his fellow Ironfang Legion members.

I simply recalculate the threat level of their encounters based on the combined strength of the PCs and the NPCs. Thus, having an NPC hireling in the party means lower threat and therefore less experience earned from the encounter. If I know in advance the NPC will help in the encounter, then I increase the difficulty of the encounter to try to keep the threat as I intended.

I calculate the combined power of a party by viewing them as creatures with XP values. A party member as the party's level is worth 40 xp. A typical party of 4 is worth 160 xp. Imagine that a four-member 2nd-level party hires a 1st-level bard to play Inspire Courage/Courageous Anthem during their battles and cast Soothe. The bard is 30 xp, so he would increase the party's power value by 30 xp to 190 xp. If the party found a 5th-level Cyclops, ordinarily worth 120 xp, then I would adjust the cyclops's relative XP to (160/190)(120 xp) = 101 xp. So the hidden cost of the bard hireling would be losing 19 xp. Or maybe instead I would give the cyclops a 0th-level pet Ringhorn Ram, so that the total XP of the encounter would be (160/190)(120 xp + 20 xp) = 118 xp, for a Severe-Threat encounter as I intended.

The Ronyon wrote:

I know you can pay them to go adventuring with you, but what about combat?

Having someone raise a tower sheild,take cover,and m9ve as directed seems worth 2 silver a day.

2 sliver a day? The Pathfinder Core Rulebook under Services says that the daily wages for an unskilled hireling is 1 sp per day and for a skilled hireling is 5 sp a day. (The Remastered Player Core does not mention hirelings under Services.)

Lost Omens: Firebrands gives more details about hiring NPCs with levels under Guides. A 1st-level guide charges 4 gp a day, a lot more than 2 or 5 sp. A 2nd-level guide charges 10 gp a day.

[The Raven Black]

In PFS, NPCs on your side usually do not appear in combat encounters. Either they go someplace safe or they are killed offscreen or they fight their own combat encounter with another group of opponents offscreen.