A.) Not all commanders would necessarily have a good understanding of world history, high society, or legal institutions, whether because they just didn't study those topics or because they come from some isolated community on the fringes of society. (Personally, I'm looking forward to making a crossbow-wielding kobold commander at some point that focuses on traditional kobold-tribe combat tactics, e.g ambushes and herding enemies into traps.) Being automatically trained in Society somewhat restricts what character concepts you can fit into this class.
B.) The class doesn't seem to actually use the Society skill for anything.
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A.) Not all commanders would necessarily have a good understanding of world history, high society, or legal institutions, whether because they just didn't study those topics or because they come from some isolated community on the fringes of society. (Personally, I'm looking forward to making a crossbow-wielding kobold commander at some point that focuses on traditional kobold-tribe combat tactics, e.g ambushes and herding enemies into traps.) Being automatically trained in Society somewhat restricts what character concepts you can fit into this class.
B.) The class doesn't seem to actually use the Society skill for anything.
But, your kobold knows how to herd different people into traps, as well as the different sorts of people to be wary of, including details like "who can see in the dark and who needs light". That's all Society knowledge too. If it comes with some extraneous knowledge, well, that's okay to ignore. This is a system where knowing how to fight undead also teaches you how to fight angels and proteans.
But, your kobold knows how to herd different people into traps, as well as the different sorts of people to be wary of, including details like "who can see in the dark and who needs light". That's all Society knowledge too. If it comes with some extraneous knowledge, well, that's okay to ignore. This is a system where knowing how to fight undead also teaches you how to fight angels and proteans.A.) Not all commanders would necessarily have a good understanding of world history, high society, or legal institutions, whether because they just didn't study those topics or because they come from some isolated community on the fringes of society. (Personally, I'm looking forward to making a crossbow-wielding kobold commander at some point that focuses on traditional kobold-tribe combat tactics, e.g ambushes and herding enemies into traps.) Being automatically trained in Society somewhat restricts what character concepts you can fit into this class.
B.) The class doesn't seem to actually use the Society skill for anything.
All of that is covered by Warfare Lore, though (especially since commanders get a specific class feature to let them Recall Knowledge about most creatures with Warfare Lore). And I'm not saying "commanders shouldn't be allowed to be trained in Society at all", just that they shouldn't be trained in it *automatically*; maybe a character focuses on specific types of creatures and takes the Lore skills related to them, or they're leading a crusade against spellcasters so they choose to take the magical skills instead.
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All of that is covered by Warfare Lore, though (especially since commanders get a specific class feature to let them Recall Knowledge about most creatures with Warfare Lore). And I'm not saying "commanders shouldn't be allowed to be trained in Society at all", just that they shouldn't be trained in it *automatically*; maybe a character focuses on specific types of creatures and takes the Lore skills related to them, or they're leading a crusade against spellcasters so they choose to take the magical skills instead.But, your kobold knows how to herd different people into traps, as well as the different sorts of people to be wary of, including details like "who can see in the dark and who needs light". That's all Society knowledge too. If it comes with some extraneous knowledge, well, that's okay to ignore. This is a system where knowing how to fight undead also teaches you how to fight angels and proteans.A.) Not all commanders would necessarily have a good understanding of world history, high society, or legal institutions, whether because they just didn't study those topics or because they come from some isolated community on the fringes of society. (Personally, I'm looking forward to making a crossbow-wielding kobold commander at some point that focuses on traditional kobold-tribe combat tactics, e.g ambushes and herding enemies into traps.) Being automatically trained in Society somewhat restricts what character concepts you can fit into this class.
B.) The class doesn't seem to actually use the Society skill for anything.
All the classes come with one (or more) pre-selected non-lore skill, or the choice between Athletics/Acrobatics in the specific case of Str/Dex classes. And yeah, it means that Sorcerers can't be clueless about magic, and that you can't make a Bard who is terrible at performing or an Investigator who doesn't know anything about people. That's just a feature of how the system works. I can't think of a skill that fits all Commanders better than Society.
Maybe Commander could be the one exception to how classes normally work, of course.
All the classes come with one (or more) pre-selected non-lore skill, or the choice between Athletics/Acrobatics in the specific case of Str/Dex classes. And yeah, it means that Sorcerers can't be clueless about magic, and that you can't make a Bard who is terrible at performing or an Investigator who doesn't know anything about people. That's just a feature of how the system works. I can't...All of that is covered by Warfare Lore, though (especially since commanders get a specific class feature to let them Recall Knowledge about most creatures with Warfare Lore). And I'm not saying "commanders shouldn't be allowed to be trained in Society at all", just that they shouldn't be trained in it *automatically*; maybe a character focuses on specific types of creatures and takes the Lore skills related to them, or they're leading a crusade against spellcasters so they choose to take the magical skills instead.But, your kobold knows how to herd different people into traps, as well as the different sorts of people to be wary of, including details like "who can see in the dark and who needs light". That's all Society knowledge too. If it comes with some extraneous knowledge, well, that's okay to ignore. This is a system where knowing how to fight undead also teaches you how to fight angels and proteans.A.) Not all commanders would necessarily have a good understanding of world history, high society, or legal institutions, whether because they just didn't study those topics or because they come from some isolated community on the fringes of society. (Personally, I'm looking forward to making a crossbow-wielding kobold commander at some point that focuses on traditional kobold-tribe combat tactics, e.g ambushes and herding enemies into traps.) Being automatically trained in Society somewhat restricts what character concepts you can fit into this class.
B.) The class doesn't seem to actually use the Society skill for anything.
Monks don't come with a predetermined skill, actually. In any case, I feel like Warfare Lore on its own is enough in regards to pre-trained skills; Society doesn't actually help with combat tactics (and like I said earlier, the class doesn't actually use it for any gameplay mechanics).
It feels a little weird for it to be mandatory, in the same way it would be a little weird for wizards to automatically be trained in Society. That is to say, the skill fits the backstory for *some* wizards (because it's common for wizards to study history and hang out in academic circles and the like), but not for *all* of them (your isolated hermits and your self-taught outcasts and whatnot).
Monks don't come with a predetermined skill, actually. In any case, I feel like Warfare Lore on its own is enough in regards to pre-trained skills; Society doesn't actually help with combat tactics (and like I said earlier, the class doesn't actually use it for any gameplay mechanics).
It feels a little weird for it to be mandatory, in the same way it would be a little weird for wizards to automatically be trained in Society. That is to say, the skill fits the backstory for *some* wizards (because it's common for wizards to study history and hang out in academic circles and the like), but not for *all* of them (your isolated hermits and your self-taught outcasts and whatnot).
... Huh, I absolutely thought Monks were Acrobatics/Athletics like Fighter. Welp, never mind!
Wizards are trained in Arcana because it is the best-suited skill for them, and not in Society because Arcana fits a lot better. Commanders knowing people, and therefore Society, seems like a good fit for me, and better than the others. You don't have outcast hermit Commanders, and while not all of the skill fits all Commanders, at least some of the skill will almost always fit a Commander- they should at least know about their own troops beyond just what Warfare Lore gives.
But, it's fine to disagree on that point. I was wrong about there being no precedent for no fixed skills, and that's what you're arguing for here. I'd pretty much always be taking Society anyway, so it's not the same problem for me, and a flex skill would be no worse.
I'd suggest there be skills linked to class paths, likely society and some face skills and the like, but neither the commander or the guardian seem to have that sort of mechanic built in. No Rackets or Instincts or anything along those lines.
guardians have a threat technique.
But nothing even close to that for commanders.
... Huh, I absolutely thought Monks were Acrobatics/Athletics like Fighter. Welp, never mind!
Wizards are trained in Arcana because it is the best-suited skill for them, and not in Society because Arcana fits a lot better. Commanders knowing people, and therefore Society, seems like a good fit for me, and better than the others. You don't have outcast hermit Commanders, and while not all of the skill fits all Commanders, at least some of the skill will almost always fit a Commander- they should at least know about their own troops beyond just what Warfare Lore gives.
But, it's fine to disagree on that point. I was wrong about there being no precedent for no fixed skills, and that's what you're arguing for here. I'd pretty much always be taking Society anyway, so it's not the same problem for me, and a flex skill would be no worse.
What I'm basically thinking is just that the Society skill doesn't really do anything for commanders in-combat beyond letting you Recall Knowledge about humanoid enemies, and there's other ways to go about that (the Warfare Expertise class feature, Lore skills about specific creatures, etc), so it's not the kind of skill that should be a hard requirement in the same way that something like Crafting is for an alchemist or Performance is for a bard. The skill makes sense for commanders that come from a background of organized military/mercenary service, of course, but commanders might also come from other backgrounds (tribal communities being the main thing that comes to mind) where that skill wouldn't make as much sense.
I'm not decided, but I feel it's worth saying that a tribal community is also a society. If you want to know anything about how to approach the other tribal communities in your forest/plain, you'd best know a thing or two about their societies. It doesn't strike me as especially odd. Perhaps a choice of "Society or ..." would be the best way to approach thus but then what other skill is as appropriate as understanding people for the skill of a tactical commander studying the art of warfare? Aside from the already present Warfare Lore, obviously.
If the commander ends up having subclasses in release, which I found really weird they didn't have them already even in a basic form, it could be that each subclass is tied to a skill and (hopefully) a mental stat too. Diplomacy for Cha-based, Religion for Wis-based, Society for Int-based.
Assuming we have a choice of KAS in release, could Warfare Lore use your KAS instead of Intelligence?
I'm not decided, but I feel it's worth saying that a tribal community is also a society. If you want to know anything about how to approach the other tribal communities in your forest/plain, you'd best know a thing or two about their societies. It doesn't strike me as especially odd. Perhaps a choice of "Society or ..." would be the best way to approach thus but then what other skill is as appropriate as understanding people for the skill of a tactical commander studying the art of warfare? Aside from the already present Warfare Lore, obviously.
The Society skill seems like it mostly covers large-scale urban societies, given that it's used not only for Recall Knowledge and Decipher Writing checks but also for checks to Subsist in urban environments and Create Forgeries of legal documents. So, I don't think it's a good fit for characters unfamiliar with those kinds of institutions.
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Society gives the commander an understanding of the geopolitical landscape of the area: what groups like each other, hate each other or are neutral to each other. Who trades with who. What the architecture are like, and maybe ways to breach them. Or that the local bandits are in a turf war with a thieves guild, so it's possible to play one against the other.
IMO, Society fits perfectly for someone that plans to lead a group of combatants on and off the battlefield. Its specific knowledge compliments Lore Warfare's generic: for instance, Society might let you know the general structure of the local sewers while Warfare would let you know what tactics to use to take advantage of that knowledge.
Society gives the commander an understanding of the geopolitical landscape of the area: what groups like each other, hate each other or are neutral to each other. Who trades with who. What the architecture are like, and maybe ways to breach them. Or that the local bandits are in a turf war with a thieves guild, so it's possible to play one against the other.
IMO, Society fits perfectly for someone that plans to lead a group of combatants on and off the battlefield. Its specific knowledge compliments Lore Warfare's generic: for instance, Society might let you know the general structure of the local sewers while Warfare would let you know what tactics to use to take advantage of that knowledge.
I'm less saying "Society doesn't fit with the commander class fantasy at all" and more "not all commanders would be trained in Society". Not all commanders would necessarily care about geopolitics, for instance; aside from the tribal example I've broguht up before, the class could also fit for the "brains" of a gang of thugs or something. (Not that street-thugs necessarily *shouldn't* be trained in Society, I guess, but my main point is mostly just that the class concept is a lot broader than just "large-scale military tactician" and I don't want potential character concepts to be limited only to "people who would reasonably be expected to be trained in Society".)
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I'm less saying "Society doesn't fit with the commander class fantasy at all" and more "not all commanders would be trained in Society". Not all commanders would necessarily care about geopolitics, for instance; aside from the tribal example I've broguht up before, the class could also fit for the "brains" of a gang of thugs or something. (Not that street-thugs necessarily *shouldn't* be trained in Society, I guess, but my main point is mostly just that the class concept is a lot broader than just "large-scale military tactician" and I don't want potential character concepts to be limited only to "people who would reasonably be expected to be trained in Society".)
But the examples you give WOULD use society.
tribal example: you're going to know about nearby humanoids in the area and their structures like were the roads are, were the lizardfolk tribe lives, ect.
gang of thugs: is going to know about the local law enforcement, roads and other locations for robbery, ect.
I'm not seeing a commander that doesn't fit with society. You are focusing on large scale but it's just as relevant in small scale. Even an individual, like a pickpocket, has relevant uses for society like knowing the back streets for escapes, knowing were the best marks congregate to knowing which gangs live and control which parts of the city.
I'm less saying "Society doesn't fit with the commander class fantasy at all" and more "not all commanders would be trained in Society". Not all commanders would necessarily care about geopolitics, for instance; aside from the tribal example I've broguht up before, the class could also fit for the "brains" of a gang of thugs or something. (Not that street-thugs necessarily *shouldn't* be trained in Society, I guess, but my main point is mostly just that the class concept is a lot broader than just "large-scale military tactician" and I don't want potential character concepts to be limited only to "people who would reasonably be expected to be trained in Society".)But the examples you give WOULD use society.
tribal example: you're going to know about nearby humanoids in the area and their structures like were the roads are, were the lizardfolk tribe lives, ect.
gang of thugs: is going to know about the local law enforcement, roads and other locations for robbery, ect.
I'm not seeing a commander that doesn't fit with society. You are focusing on large scale but it's just as relevant in small scale. Even an individual, like a pickpocket, has relevant uses for society like knowing the back streets for escapes, knowing were the best marks congregate to knowing which gangs live and control which parts of the city.
Again, the Society skill is really focused on large-scale civilization. The Creature Identification rules say that trying to identify hags with Society might be at a higher DC, for instance, because despite having the Humanoid trait they "live outside of society". Even for characters that *do* live in a more traditional humanoid society, they might not care enough about the skill to actually be trained in it, e.g they might have focused all of their study on the logical side of warfare and have little to no knowledge of politics or interpersonal skills.
My stance here really is just "I have ideas for commander character concepts where Society doesn't make sense for them to be trained in, so I don't want Society to be mandatory", and I really feel like that's not an unreasonable stance to have.
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Again, the Society skill is really focused on large-scale civilization.
"You understand the people and systems that make civilization run, and you know the historical events that make societies what they are today. Further, you can use that knowledge to navigate the complex physical, societal, and economic workings of settlements."
Recall Knowledge "about local history, important personalities, legal institutions, societal structure, and humanoid cultures. The GM might allow Society to apply to other creatures that are major elements of society in your region, such as the draconic nobility in a kingdom of humans ruled by dragons."
There is NOTHING about scale, so it works just fine for an entire kingdom or a single town, tribe or area. If you think it's only for "large-scale civilization", please provide a quote from the books that states that. Notice it mentions "local history", "humanoid cultures", "legal institutions": how does that NOT apply to a kobold tribe or a gang? the local law is a "legal institution" and the nearby lizardman tribe is a "humanoid culture".
My stance here really is just "I have ideas for commander character concepts where Society doesn't make sense for them to be trained in, so I don't want Society to be mandatory", and I really feel like that's not an unreasonable stance to have.
So far, the examples don't track for me, as they seem like Society seems like a good fit. it's like saying 'it makes NO sense that my character knows local history or the town they live in': Sure, it's possible to have an amnesiac commander but that's a pretty small corner case.
I get that you don't like the enforced skill but I'm truly not getting the justifications you're giving: I'm all for you not liking it, but I'll push back on a 'it doesn't make sense because' argument when it I don't agree with it.
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Society fits with more general concepts of a group. If you're a Kobold Commander of your tribe, you'd know of your culture. When does this break is the fact you can be from the Kobold Tribe, go to the human Kingdom roll a Society based RK and suddenly know everything about them despite you mentioning how the Kobold Commander has rather never heard of anything related to a "Human kingdom." Which at that point is just Roleplay.
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Society fits with more general concepts of a group. If you're a Kobold Commander of your tribe, you'd know of your culture.
But HOW well you know it is Society. Do you know the Chiefs son is seeing the shamans daughter? Do you know the 3rd scout is lazy and tends to nap when not watched? Do you leverage your reputation and favors to get something you want? That's a Society roll.
Just look at the feats Society open up: Eyes of the City [getting the help of locals] and Streetwise [You know about life on the streets and feel the pulse of your local settlement]. Society applies to your local region, clan and tribe as well as other areas.
When does this break is the fact you can be from the Kobold Tribe, go to the human Kingdom roll a Society based RK and suddenly know everything about them despite you mentioning how the Kobold Commander has rather never heard of anything related to a "Human kingdom." Which at that point is just Roleplay.
That's an issue with the base game, not the Commander getting Society IMO.
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I really like the choice of society and warfare lore for the class skill as well as it being INT only. This is a smarty pants class, not the inspiring presence warlord. Having different paths for this class would just end up leaving half for more of the feats every level unusable for one path or the other and is just very unnecessary.
Society is the skill associated with knowing what social creatures want and how they organize themselves. It definitely has a place for the class beyond warfare lore and shows the book learning focus of the class.
Also society doesn’t auto scale, so leaving it at trained will cover “this is not a character that knows everything about every culture everywhere.” If you write a backstory about your character only knowing your own culture, you can choose not to roll certain checks, your GM can assign added difficulty to those checks or any combination of the 2 you agree on.
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One of the things Society on Commander means to me isn't "This class will use this a lot" - the Wizard for comparison doesn't have a lot of innate use for Arcana that every other character doesn't share. Rather, it is a thematic prerequisite for the skills you have developed.
it seems to be that understanding peoples and their customs, their relationships, and their histories, is the fundamental grounding needed to become a Commander. This doesn't mean you had to study etiquette at an academy; rather you might have been steeped in the oral tales of your tribe and their battles and their foes and allies.
I'm not committed to this vision, but it does make the most sense to me when compared to any other skill so far. Society may apply more in large, established civilizations, but it seems to me that's a natural consequence of there being a bunch more densely-packed Society at those locations, not because it's fundamentally out of theme. Any people which lives together in groups and has a history and a culture is appropriate to greater or lesser degree for Society.