Timber Sentinel + Champion Reaction + Shield block = ?

[Mellored]

How would these things combine?

Could the champion use his reaction to reduce the damage the tree took?
Then the tree absorbs the damage
Then the shield block take the remainder?

[Powers128]

The tree is not a valid target but you could stack the resistance from a champions reaction with the reduced damage from protector tree since that doesn't actually give resistance, it just splits the damage.

[YuriP]

Mellored wrote:

How would these things combine?

Could the champion use his reaction to reduce the damage the tree took?
Then the tree absorbs the damage
Then the shield block take the remainder?

Oh god!

The the famous/infamous Champion + Timber Sentinel!

Responding the questions:
"Could the champion use his reaction to reduce the damage the tree took?":
No because the tree isn't your ally nor yourself:
Retributive Strike [reaction] - Trigger: "An enemy damages your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you."
Glimpse of Redemption [reaction] - Trigger: "An enemy damages your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you."
Liberating Step [reaction] - Trigger: "An enemy damages, Grabs, or Grapples your ally, and both are within 15 feet of you."
Shield Block [reaction] - Trigger: "While you have your shield raised, you would take physical damage (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) from an attack."

That said the tree absorves the damage before your ally/your take the damage. What's good for your [url=https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5212]Shield Block [reaction]/url] once this will reduce the damage that shield will take but maybe not so good for champion reaction once that if the tree absorbs all damage you will be unable to trigger it to use its effects vs target (yet you can save your reaction to use against a greater damage).

Anyway is easier to regrown a tree then to repair a shield.

[Mellored]

Powers128 wrote:

The tree is not a valid target but you could stack the resistance from a champions reaction with the reduced damage from protector tree since that doesn't actually give resistance, it just splits the damage.

So is it

Tree -> Champion -> Shield
Or
Tree-> Shield -> Champion.

[Mellored]

Also, if the tree is not an ally, is it an object?

And thus can it be repaired? (Not necessarily faster than casting it again, but curious).

[YuriP]

Mellored wrote:

Tree -> Champion -> Shield

Or
Tree-> Shield -> Champion.

It's unclear.

We have 2 interpretations that was discussed here.

One is RAI interpreted by logic and used by some designers that say that Shield hardness is applied before the resistances (champion reaction gives a resistance).

Other is RAW interpreted by the term "you would take physical damage" once that take damage is the last step of Damage Rolls rules some GMs and the FoundryVTT automation interprets that the resistance is applied before the Shield Hardness reduce the damage.

The main difference between them is how much damage the shield will take once that the final damage usually will be the same.

Mellored wrote:

Also, if the tree is not an ally, is it an object?

And thus can it be repaired? (Not necessarily faster than casting it again, but curious).

No it's a spell/impulse effect.

[shroudb]

Mellored wrote:

Also, if the tree is not an ally, is it an object?

And thus can it be repaired? (Not necessarily faster than casting it again, but curious).

The tree is just a spell effect.

It's neither an object, a creature, or an ally.

[Gortle]

shroudb wrote:

Mellored wrote:

Also, if the tree is not an ally, is it an object?

And thus can it be repaired? (Not necessarily faster than casting it again, but curious).

The tree is just a spell effect.

It's neither an object, a creature, or an ally.

The tree is a spell effect.

It is not specified that it is a minion or an ally. So the reasonble assumption most people are making in this thread is that it is not a minion or ally.

BUT that is an assumption. A particular GM could very reasonably decide that the tree is a temporary creature and choose to treat it as an ally. It will really depend on the style of your GM.

Personally I don't mind as long as the approach of the GM is somewhat consistent.

PF2 is a game that empowers the GM to make those sorts of decisions.

[Angwa]

I really wish they explicitly called out the Protector Tree as a summoned creature with a more elaborate stat line. As it is written now is inviting a head-on collision between the fiction and game elements.

Sure, spells like Black Tentacles/Slither also conjure undefined stuff with just AC and hitpoints and nothing else, but it is also much more simple and obviously does its thing independent from the caster.

Protector Tree is much more complex. There are just so many messy edge-cases if it has no mind of its own and needs the caster to determine who are allies and enemies (on a round-to-round basis even because otherwise it can't protect eg. new summons).

Ok, sure, when confused you have no allies so Protector Tree can't do anything, but do unconscious or dead casters have allies? Do casters have allies and enemies in another plane of existence (eg. under the effect of Maze/Quandary?). Or less extreme, if it is a spell effect from the caster, and it isn't an aoe, does it target your ally when it prevents damage and suffers from miss-chance when the caster is dazzled/blinded?

It is just so much more elegant when it is just a summoned creature with a mind of its own...

[shroudb]

Angwa wrote:

I really wish they explicitly called out the Protector Tree as a summoned creature with a more elaborate stat line. As it is written now is inviting a head-on collision between the fiction and game elements.

Sure, spells like Black Tentacles/Slither also conjure undefined stuff with just AC and hitpoints and nothing else, but it is also much more simple and obviously does its thing independent from the caster.

Protector Tree is much more complex. There are just so many messy edge-cases if it has no mind of its own and needs the caster to determine who are allies and enemies (on a round-to-round basis even because otherwise it can't protect eg. new summons).

Ok, sure, when confused you have no allies so Protector Tree can't do anything, but do unconscious or dead casters have allies? Do casters have allies and enemies in another plane of existence (eg. under the effect of Maze/Quandary?). Or less extreme, if it is a spell effect from the caster, and it isn't an aoe, does it target your ally when it prevents damage and suffers from miss-chance when the caster is dazzled/blinded?

It is just so much more elegant when it is just a summoned creature with a mind of its own...

I mean, there are a lot of spell effects that call out Allies or Enemies and have duration.

Most of the things you describe (extra allies spawning, caster going unconsious, and etc) also apply to them.

Take the Incarnate series of spells as an example, same deal.

Making it a "creature" would be beyond weird imo. Since it's just a tree, without any intelligence of its own.

Furthermore, since we're talking about the kineticist version, that just makes it permanent if not destroyed, how would a "thinking creature" even work? Would you spawn a village of tree creatures? Would they be smart for a minute and then their intelligence would go poof away and they would revert to normal trees afterwards? And etc.

It would just be messy without any real upside imo.

[Angwa]

Eh, Incarnate spells are just spells which last 2 turns and not a minute, with an 'arrival' and 'departure' effect. Whatever manifests does not have AC or hitpoints. Much less chance, though not zero %, to run into weirdness or the fiction and game-elements being at odds.

And yes, I would have Protector Tree revert to being an ordinary tree when the spell ends and the animating spirit departs.