Here we go! Only a few days until the reveal! Let's centralize everyones guesses so we staff can have a single place to look at to gauge interest. Who is the Core 20 deity that is dying? Include your math if you would like.
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Torag goes out defending some person/group/city/whatever from some horrible thing. Heroic self-sacrifice.
It's not a bet I'd put any money on, but putting my dead pool pick on Calistria.
Largely a combination of process of elimination and avoiding safer/more obvious choices.
Also pointedly selecting a deity I actually like, as opposed to engaging in wishful thinking about removing anyone in particular...
Going down the line:
Lamashtu is both a superb patron of villainy and one of the first Golarion deities we ever got to unpack. She has some neat divine politics to juggle, and her job as "Why humans and animals get along so poorly" is also kind of relevant. I just don't see how her demise is better for story or setting than keeping her around.
Iomedae? I just feel like cheating us out of watching her deal with Arazni's "promotion" is a lazy move. If anyone but Arazni were stepping up, I'd call her a natural choice for heroic and/or tragic death. Plus Seelah the Paladin is an iconic with a deep well of art assets and a major role as product identity.
Torag? Eh. Just no sizzle there.
Shelyn? Too much going on with her brother who's going to be around. Not seeing it.
Sarenrae? Like Iomedae, a natural choice for heroism and/or tragedy, but it just feels... off? Some of it's also that there's a lot of art assets of Kyra with her symbol. See Seelah, under Iomedae.
Norgorber? To kill a god so big on secrecy you'd need to unpack his secrets a bit. I don't see that happening. And then there's the whole, "are you sure he's dead?" angle. Pass.
Gorum? There's a strong case to be made for his death, but... cliches are cliches for a reason. People may (justly) argue that he doesn't enrich the setting as much as some of the others, but an essentially amoral god of war has a part to play. People claim that he's the god of choice for murderhobo problem players, but... all of the other obvious patrons of warriors (Torag, Iomedae, Szuriel, Moloch,etc.) take strong ethical positions that lack one thing Gorum's indifference brings to the table: full-throated support of both sides of ANY fight that comes up.
Abadar gets a bum rap. He, like Gorum, makes a superb patron of both heroes and villains, and he runs like a thread across the entire setting in a way only rivaled by the already-safe Desna and Rovagug.
Gozreh? Putting a few other things aside, Gozreh is sort of the representative of Sourhern Garund in the core 20. A nature deity who isn't just a Green Man analogue of one kind or another, and who ties into some of the less "fantasy Europe" regions of the setting. Plus, Gozreh's broadly inhuman nature and portrayal are cool. Like Gorum, not the worst pick, but not mine.
Calistria enlivens and enriches the setting, but not in a load-bearing way. The "elf" deity whose most widely-known portrayal is explicitly not how most elves venerate her. The not-always-nice goddess who still seems to broadly gang out with the good guys more than the bad. An odd thematic mix which, while not directly overlapping Arazni's areas of interest, might feel like an odd conceptual crowding of it. A goddess who would be mourned in the fantasy, thereby having gut punch impact, but without feeling crippling. She is in the sweet spot where she would be missed... but could be spared.
So she's where I have placed my marker.
I fear it's Sarenrae (I'd fear Shelyn, too, but that doesn't feel as likely as Sarenrae to me), I expect Iomedae, but maybe Gorum. I want it to be a god I'm not that personally invested in, like Norgorber, or perhaps Abadar or Torag.
... we're allowed to hedge our bets, right? ;P
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Gorum...because he adds nothing particularly interesting to Golarion.
He's completely unneeded/superfluous.
I mean, hardly a great god to hook people into an event with then is it? I don't get the "the dying god must be useless/have little impact with their death" argument, considering this is going to be a big event. For my money, I'm putting it on Sarenrae, as much as I don't want it to be her, she feels likely.
EDIT: Okay I do get it it's not wanting a favourite/one that person likes to be on the chopping block, but it's not going to be as interesting a story if they go for a god that will make zero impact with their death.
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Neither would I place a bet on my choice, but my not-so-confident prediction is
Abadar
--The god of economics/money doesn't have a real purpose for the vast majority of PCs or BBEGs or mooks and, frankly, a campaign setting wherein such a deity dies makes it more fun, more apropos even, for PCs to be heroes as civilization or society takes a big hit. (See 'Aroden')
--The god of city/society doesn't really have mountains and mountains of canon the elimination of which would bother tons of customers, er, players. Whereas if they delete Iomedae or Sarenrae or Calistria or NoBooger or ToeRag or GroomGroom or Gozreh, well, a huge number of customers, er, players, will be bummed out.
So, months ago I predicted Asmodeus because it seemed like the specific D&D lore for him that Gygax started to develop (and later others wrote more on) might be a choice just to avoid intellectual property problems. And it wouldn't be hard for Paizo to promote some other Devil or something to take his place. They could even keep Asmodeus around a s a Ghost or something without deleting him completely. But alas, Paizo said they had made this decision Loooong before the latest (in an even Loooooonger list of) WotC poohpooh-head maneuvers.
Then, I changed it to Zon Kuthon only because Liane Merciel was commissioned to do the writing and so much of her work has dealt with -- including I *believe* her favorite work -- Nidal/Pangolais/The Midnight Lord. So I figured, okay: Dou Bral. But he's safe.
So: Abadar
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Calistria. Why? Calistria is the goddess of revenge. Arazni teach you to "despise and never forgive those who have hurt you". Having two deities (among the core 20) who encourage you to bear a grudge seems a bit redundant to me.
Calistria is a goddess of getting even and then dropping it - a valuable perspective for the Elves, who have to endure their family and neighbors for centuries. She has a very different view of things from Arazni, and all of her sex-positive material stands firmly apart.
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I'm sorry for hedging, but I remain where I started, with both a guess and a hope.
My prediction: Gorum dies. Maybe he's challenged by an ascendant Mahja Firehair who takes his power for her people, or maybe the nasty monster implied by a few Godsrain Prophecies is a greater threat than the lord of battle. His end is suitably bloody for a figure so bloody-handed, the gore giving rise to an entire generation of Exemplars who get to use their might as they see fit. With none to act as the master of war, it erupts across much of reality (in the way that many domains "go wild" in the Prophecies), driven by those competing to seize Gorum's strength for their side or themselves.
My hope: Iomedae dies. A horror from the edges of reality comes, perhaps called by vengeful Veiled Masters... and with the Starstone's power coursing through her, Iomedae stands as a bulwark. The confrontation is selfless in a way Aroden could never have been, likely reveals something shocking about the Starstone, and ultimately sees the Inheritor fall. The alien threat drives odd alliances and petty betrayals both between the gods, and demands mortals rise up to protect their homes across the workd.
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Okay. Lemme just go through who all is possible again....
Abadar, Calistria, Gorum, Gozreh, Iomedae, Lamashtu, Norgorber, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Torag
My money's on Iomedae or Sarenrae, for two reasons.
First, I don't particularly want either of them to die, and I always try to bet on things I do NOT want to happen, thus I win either way (which can also be looked at as "losing either way", but that's a philosophical matter).
Second, they're both HIGHLY represented by iconics -- Merisiel has ribbons in Calistria's colours, but that's not the same -- which I judge to make them MORE likely to die, instead of LESS.
I'd be willing to bet actual money that in the book, we get a section of "how do people react to their god dying", and accompanying it is one of two illustrations: someone in utter grief, or someone in the "continuing on with living your life after a massive loss" stage. (Like, I think both of those illustrations would be IN the book, I just don't know which of those would be attached to that particular section.)
I'd also be willing to bet money that there'll be a section on characters who get power from that deity, what happens when the deity is no longer around to grant spells.
Iconics are used for a reason; that an illustration tends to be better received if it's of characters we already know.
Of the ten deities left, half of them have a worshipper among the iconics, off the top of my head. Calistria and Merisiel, Amiri and Gorum, Seelah and Iomedae, Kyra and Sarenrae, and Lem and Shelyn. (If there's others, I don't know them, thus I'd say they don't count for these purposes.) Thus, if there were no other considerations, it'd be a 50% chance of being able to illustrate "my deity is dead" with a well-known (to me) iconic, and a 20% chance to do show "what happens to my magic" with one of them.
My second point isn't infallible; there's prolly characters SOMEWHERE in the books who not only worship but get divine spells from any of the other gods. (Now might be a good time to mention that I've been able to read very few of the actual sourcebooks.) But like, there's multiple arguments for and against literally every single possibility, and at some point you just have to say "I know this isn't guaranteed, but this is what I'm guessing".
Valeros follows Cayden and always holds his holy symbol by his side. I actually associate Valeros with Cayden more than Len with Shelyn.
Valeros follows Cayden and always holds his holy symbol by his side. I actually associate Valeros with Cayden more than Len with Shelyn.
I was specifically looking at "deities who aren't confirmed safe".
...and honestly the only reason I had it strongly in my mind, Lem and Shelyn, was that earlier today I was rereading the Earn Income section of PC1, and he's one of the examples, having it included that like "there's a chance his patron deity Shelyn might be attending the performance".
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Gorum.
He was the first god of Golarion I wanted to create a PC for (in his Not-Crom guise).
He is totally the one I equate with the deeply CN Marvel's Ares I love.
He is the god of Will you fight ? And that resonates a lot for me (including the Ma Baker's song I also enjoy for this).
And it is a good way to die.
It's Gorum's time to fight now. Time to die. And, despite it all, Gorum smiles.
If you have not, we are running a survey at the moment. The data has been super interesting....https://t.co/LKV50hEyj2
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If you have not, we are running a survey at the moment. The data has been super interesting....https://t.co/LKV50hEyj2
you tease! Are you saving the data for the live stream? Or did I miss the results after submitting and can now never see them?
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Gorum picks a fight with the wrong kind of entity, gets the kind of death that Gorum wants.
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you tease! Are you saving the data for the live stream? Or did I miss the results after submitting and can now never see them?If you have not, we are running a survey at the moment. The data has been super interesting....https://t.co/LKV50hEyj2
We plan to talk about the data on stream yes lol. We have over 3700 responses so far.
That is a lot of engagement!
Camazotz returns and swallows the sun.
Sarenrae won’t be the one to die however.
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Actually, I saw someone on a stream say that the dead deity won't stop getting new stuff right away just because it's dead in canon, cause people still play conetent from before their death... and might want to continue playing without that development. It was still mostly a comment about short term, but that do means that they wouldn't stop from making new content just before either, so I doubt it's a good indication. (My own guess is Torag, so none of these, but still, playing devil's advocate cause that's what the info I know off points to.)
I sadly don'T remember which stream it was, nor who said it, but it was a Paizo employee. Well... I remember who it was, but without concrete proof, I prefer not to say, in caase I remember wrong, or misunderstood what they meant..
My votes on Gorum. One aspect of his lore is that he's fought against or alongside (sometimes both at the same time) pretty much every other deity. He has a connection to everyone and the god of battle dieing would really give a "no god is safe," feeling in universe to the other deitys.
I’m putting my (imaginary) money on Abadar, for the following reasons:
1) When deciding whether to kill off a character, writers have to do the mental “math” of whether their death will create more storytelling opportunities than their life. Abadar isn’t going through a character arc like some other gods (Shelyn has her whole thing with her brother going on, and Sarenrae has very recently in-canon started putting her foot down and been less tolerant of the Cult of the Dawnflower and slavery, for instance), and he’s generally a pretty static, unwavering, unchanging character—so his death wouldn’t, frankly, “cost” much (ironic for the god of money!).
2) His death, on the other hand, would create lots of storytelling opportunities. Abadar has the First Vault, which is essentially full of “things people would fight over”. He’s also one of the gods who is very willing to negotiate with others and come to agreements, meaning his death could leave the gods without a mediator, of sorts—especially since the other formerly neutral gods aren’t so diplomatically inclined or positioned (Irori is a young god who isn’t very social; Calistria is charismatic but can be very much a wild card, and is also just very self-centered; Nethys is unstable and mostly only cares about magic; Gozreh experiences the world very differently than even most gods, what with their nature deity status and how they are aware of basically Everything Everywhere (that touches water and/or is alive) All At Once; Gorum is…Gorum). Also, of course, the consequences of “what happens when the god of civilization dies” could just be a really interesting, non-apocalyptic shake-up of the setting!
3) Reportedly, James Jacobs killed Abadar in his proto-Golarion home game specifically to explore that last idea. Now, this idea has two main weaknesses—one, that even though I’ve seen it referenced by people on the forums, I’ve not found a citation (I presume it was at a con interview or something?), so it could be untrue; two, that even if Jacobs did indeed kill Abadar to explore that idea in proto-Golarion, it’s possible that the death of Aroden, god of humanity, fills that role in the final, published role of Golarion; I have no idea whether Aroden died in proto-Golarion, whether Abadar died before or after the modern time of the proto-setting, etc. BUT, at any rate, should this be true, it means that the idea of killing Abadar, regardless of whether they initially planned on doing it, existed at Paizo for years—which is especially important since, according to a reddit post by Luis Loza, the idea of killing one of the Core 20 has been in the works since sometime before summer 2022.
4) Wishful thinking. I don’t really care about Abadar, personally, and I would prefer if a god I don’t really care about dies, heh!
Abadar only has about an hour left until he dies.
What do you mean?
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Abadar only has about an hour left until he dies..
What do you mean?.
Don't we find out in an hour that Abadar is dying?
(Or did I get the days mixed up?)
About six and a half hours until the livestream. Personally I doubt it's Abadar; Gorum, Lamashtu and Gozreh seem more likely.
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And if they don't announce Abadar's death, then you're doing to kill him anyways eh?
I'm leaning toward the theory that Nhimbaloth created the false prophecies and will kill Gozreh.
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A little over an hour until Gorum gets it :)
A little over an hour until Gorum gets it :)
Dunno who misled you, keftiu, but my notes clearly say Torag will become God of Dearly Departed Dads.
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See yall in 10 minutes!
My votes on Gorum. One aspect of his lore is that he's fought against or alongside (sometimes both at the same time) pretty much every other deity. He has a connection to everyone and the god of battle dieing would really give a "no god is safe," feeling in universe to the other deitys.
Called it.
I am fine with Gorum. Of the gods, he is one i never quite cared for. Though I wonder what will replace him for places that did worship him? Maybe more regional war gods?
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Okay, but which of the non-core gods and demigods are dying??
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Okay, but which of the non-core gods and demigods are dying??
The real burning question.
So long, Gorum. I consider it kind of a "meh" choice, but hey, for quite a few people he was kind of a "meh" deity, so that's that :P
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I am fine with Gorum. Of the gods, he is one i never quite cared for. Though I wonder what will replace him for places that did worship him? Maybe more regional war gods?
Good guys still have Torag and Iomedae to lean on. Maybe (ugh) Cayden for the chaotic types.
Evil sorts have Rovagug, and maybe Zonny-boy.
People unconcerned with the ethical components of warfare who just love a good fight can... I dunno. The wrong sorts of (ugh) Caydenites, I suppose.
Or for purist "mastering the art of war" types, I guess there's (yawn) Irori.
And then there are non-core options who may or may not make it through all of this.... Milani for heroic revolutionaries, Moloch for lawful orderly "stomp your face in and commit atrocities" types, Szuriel for revel in pointless conflict.
The Dragon-Eagle is going to die protecting people from a shard of REDACTED in the Worldwound only to be attacked by the Rider of War taking a cheap shot. REDACTEDs will also be falling over the world in addition to Gorum's blood.
What is a dragon-eagle?