Ruling on Caster Level and is my DM right?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hello, I am playing a Lvl 4 Wizard in the Hells vengeance campaign right now and it's been incredibly fun so far but the last few sessions I had a discussion with my group how caster level works, I showed them the ruling "A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell." Which in my logic states that if I am a level 4 Wizard I would have caster level 4. My DM statet though that the caster level is equal to my highest spell level that I can cast which means 2 at the moment. It's not to bad now that my scaling is so low but it will be in the future.. so I created this thread for some advice to tackle this problem.

Here is what I already tried.

1. Showing them the RAW rules as stated above.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Magic/#TOC-Caster-Level they stated I was a tiefling level 4 and wizard caster level 2.

2. I showed a spell like scorching ray which states "You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level)." And there are only spells till 9th Level so max caster level would be 9 In their logic. But they stated that the scaling still continues after lvl20.

Things I will try.

1. Showing them the Ranger or other non full caster class in which it states "Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3."

2. Showing them the rules of scroll scribe rules and the scroll table there. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/scrolls

3. Showing them the magical knack trait which would be pretty good with the DMs ruling
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack/

I already thank all of you the community who are here to help with all kinds of Problems if you read this have a nice day/night


caster level is not spell level. spell level range from 0 (cantrips) to (normally) 9th level.

caster level is how 'professional' the caster is while spell level is more like what complex tools he mastered using.

if caster level was equal to spell level then spells talking about maximum caster level over 9 shouldn't even be (at least not common, as raising caster level is HARD and limited). yet fireball talk about maximum 10 dice for caster level 10. ask your GM how does that work? show him higher level spells that talk about even higher caster level (delayed blast fireball, heal, Horrid Wilting etc)


-continue- (i got internet dc while editing this for over an hour)

pathfinder is rules work in a way that something must be mentioned for it to be in the rules. as you showed the caster level is mentioned to be (most of the time) equal to the character class level. ask your GM to show you the rule where it say the caster level is equal to the highest spell level you can cast.

you can also mentioned that spell like abilities that work mostly like spells always have a mention where it say that their caster level is equal the creatures total hd (in case they were gained via the creature's race) or his class level (in case where it was gained from a class).


zza ni wrote:

caster level is not spell level. spell level range from 0 (cantrips) to (normally) 9th level.

caster level is how 'professional' the caster is while spell level is more like what complex tools he mastered using.

if caster level was equal to spell level then spells talking about maximum caster level over 9 shouldn't even be (at least not common, as raising caster level is HARD and limited). yet fireball talk about maximum 10 dice for caster level 10. ask your GM how does that work? show him higher level spells that talk about even higher caster level (delayed blast fireball, heal, Horrid Wilting etc)

As I said in number 2. with scorching ray my DM states that you still scale up after lvl 20 in caster level even if you can cast Lvl 9 spells at max..


1st: ask him to provide evidence to this scaling rule.

2nd: next ask as to HOW it scales? there are no more spells beyond 9th level. and not all casters gain spells the same level. sorcerer gain 2nd level spells only at 4th level, and 3rd at 6th while magus need to wait even later for his 3rd level.

Again, in pathfinder rules MUST be stated to have effect. if this so called 'scaling after level 20' is a real rule it should have be mentioned somewhere in the rules. ask for him to show you where he found it.


sample wizard npc from aonprd

Or show him any official pregen character.

Is your GM new to PF (and any similar TRPG)?


happykj wrote:

sample wizard npc from aonprd

Or show him any official pregen character.

Is your GM new to PF (and any similar TRPG)?

My GM played pathfinder as a witch before as far as i know a while back. Which confuses me even more that they played a spell Casting class and played it like that.


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Yeup. Your GM is wrong and there's a mountain of evidence that they're wrong. Like open up any pathfinder book to a random page and there's probably something implying they're wrong or directly contradicting them.

You've already tried with showing them the clear and explicit rules, which they brain gymnastic'd.
You've appealed to common sense, which they brain gymnastic'd.

So here. A designer actually stating the obvious. (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=379?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your- Questions-Here#18912)

"A fighter 2/wizard 8 has 10 HD.

He has a caster level of 8th."

Dark Archive

link to rules

Relevant part

Caster Level
Your caster level (or CL) represents your aptitude for casting the spells you know, and it is equal to the total number of levels you have in spellcasting classes. For characters with a single spellcasting class, this is equal to your class level in that class.


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Your GM is mistaken about the rules. As a GM he is free to change anything in the game and if he wants to alter how caster level is determined that is his right. But what he is doing is going to make nerf spell caster to the point they cannot function. Caster level is the basis for a lot more than just damage and altering in this way is going to have detrimental effect on the game.

The roll to penetrate spell resistance is based on caster level. When trying to get past spell resistance you need to roll a d20 + your caster level and at least equal the spell resistance to affect the creature. Unlike an attack roll the caster level check does not succeed on a natural 20. That means if your caster level is less than the creatures spell resistance -20 you have no chance of bypassing its spell resistance. Consider a Marilith with a spell resistance of 28 and a CR of 17. A CR 17 creature should be a average challenge to a party of 17th level characters and an epic fight for a party of 14th level characters.

A 17th level Wizard can cast 9th level spell, so needs a 19 or 20 to penetrate the Marilith’s spell resistance. A sorcerer can cast 8th level spells so needs a 20. A Wizard of less than 15th level or a sorcerer of less than 16th level cannot penetrate a spell resistance of 28 even if they roll a 20. A 6th level caster like a magus or bard under these rules can never affect the Marilith. A spell caster that relies on spells for damage being completely unable to affect his target is not an epic challenge it is a slaughter.

Another thing to consider is what this does to item creation feats. To create a magic weapon your caster level has to be 3x the value of the bonus. That normally means you have to be 15th level to create a +5 weapon, under this rule the bonus maxes out at +3. Most enchantments for magic weapons have a caster level of +8 or higher. Flaming has a requirement for a 10th level caster. Under this rule you have to be a 9th level wizard to create a +1 sword, and even a 20th level wizard cannot create a +1 flaming sword. It takes a 13th level wizard to create rings and creating staves cannot be created even by a 20th level wizard.

Logically this should make magic items incredibly rare especially anything above a +3 weapon or with a special ability. This in turn means the martial classes do not have access to the equipment the game assumes. This further degrades the party’s ability to face level appropriate challenges.

I would bring up these issues with your GM, and if he still does not change decide if this is the type of campaign you want to play in.

The Exchange

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Name Violation wrote:

link to rules

Relevant part

Caster Level
Your caster level (or CL) represents your aptitude for casting the spells you know, and it is equal to the total number of levels you have in spellcasting classes. For characters with a single spellcasting class, this is equal to your class level in that class.

Um, that's the link and text from the Starfinder site. . .

But yeah, Snake, you are right and your GM is wrong. As you quoted it's clear as day on page 208 of the CRB: "A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she’s using to cast the spell."

If you have the NPC Codex book, you can point to literally any caster in there as an example: "Wizard 1, CL1. Wizard 2, CL2. . . Wizard 15, CL15. etc."

The key is not to be aggressive when talking to him about this. I'd probably say something like "Hey, the rulebook is pretty clear on this. If you want to change it to something else, that's your right as GM. But let's talk about what this would mean to the campaign. I think I might want to play a different class if the game is going to have this significant change."


https://www.aonprd.com/NPCs.aspx?SubGroup=All
So many official spellcasters showing their caster level is equal to the level of their casting class.

https://www.aonprd.com/NPCDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Scholar%20(Hedge%20Wizard)
This example is particularly helpful. Level 5 character, 3 wizard levels, 2 commoner levels, and able to cast 2nd level spells. Caster level is shown as 3.

Grand Lodge

Reiterating 'Mysterious Stranger' -- he's mistaken about the official rule, but it's his game so he's right. You're Caster Level is 2 in his Hell's Vengeance campaign until he changes his mind (perhaps by realizing how bad a Houserule that is).


There's a difference between a bad ruling and a house rule. Frankly, if you knew this was a house rule going in, it may not be the worst I've ever seen for weakening caster power or making a low magic world. But this sounds more like a GM who simply failed to properly understand how the game is supposed to work. And correcting someone's mistake in this case seems more than worthwhile.


zza ni wrote:

1st: ask him to provide evidence to this scaling rule.

2nd: next ask as to HOW it scales? there are no more spells beyond 9th level. and not all casters gain spells the same level. sorcerer gain 2nd level spells only at 4th level, and 3rd at 6th while magus need to wait even later for his 3rd level.

Again, in pathfinder rules MUST be stated to have effect. if this so called 'scaling after level 20' is a real rule it should have be mentioned somewhere in the rules. ask for him to show you where he found it.

The scaling thing after level 20 is actually a thing quote "For example, a 21st-level wizard gains a single 10th-level spell slot..." And so on.

https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Beyond%2020th%20Level&Category=Endin g%20the%20Campaign#:~:text=Multiclassing%2FPrestige%20Classes%3A%20The%20si mplest,the%20new%20class%20level%20normally.

So yeah my DM has proven the point that scaling after lvl 20 exists, still maxing out scorching ray after lvl 23 is still not right.


no, has has proven that the spell level scale up. not that it is equal to caster level nor that it scale up as well. and level 20+ rules are optional rules ('...although in many cases these alternative rules...') which would beg questioning how come so many spells mention an effect using more then 10 caster level? could they ALL be talking about optional alternative rule set?!

ALSO ALSO, since you mention these specific rules, look and behold what they say RIGHT AT START THE SPELLS SECTION! :

"Spells: A spellcaster’s caster level continues to increase by one for each level beyond 20th level...

now for any caster that follow the rules as we mentioned (even rangers and paladins who's caster level is -3 of their level) every level increase their caster level by one. (ranger's and paladins just start at level 4 instead of 1). which work with these rules. how does this work with your GM?

speaking of:

ranger :
"Through 3rd level, a ranger has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ranger level – 3."
- no weird formula of caster level = spell level

paladin:
"Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3."
- no weird formula of caster level = spell level


Paizo Publishing may eventually publish rules to take your game into these epic realms, but if you can’t wait and would rather not use existing open content rules for epic-level play, you can use the following brief guidelines to continue beyond 20th level. Note that these guidelines aren’t robust enough to keep the game vibrant and interesting on their own for much longer past 20th level, but they should do in a pinch for a campaign that needs, say, 22 or 23 experience levels to wrap up. Likewise, you can use these rules to create super-powerful NPCs for 20th-level characters to face.

Actually, the description makes it clear these are not official rules for higher than 20th level. They are guidelines for what A GM could do if they want to continue running a game beyond 20th level. This was never part of the core rules and was only meant as a suggestion on how to handle extremely high-level play.

Spells: A spellcaster’s caster level continues to increase by one for each level beyond 20th level. Every odd-numbered level, a spellcaster gains access to a new level of spell one above his previous maximum level, gaining one spell slot in that new level. These spell slots can be used to prepare or cast spells adjusted by metamagic feats or any known spell of lower levels. Every even-numbered level, a spellcaster gains additional spell slots equal to the highest level spell he can currently cast. He can split these new slots any way he wants among the slots he currently has access to.

Even in this section it clearly states that a spellcaster’s caster level increases by 1 for each level above 20th level.

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