If an Eidolon gets the Doomed condition, does the Summoner get affected/die?
The Eidolon and Summoner share HP pools. However the Doomed condition, which only adds Dying stacks and doesn't cut HP. I know that Eidolon are their own entity for taking conditions, but due to the nature of the hp sharing the Eidolon never goes into a Dying state as far as I know, only the Summoner. So I'm unsure if the Eidolon getting Doomed affects the Summoner, or if it does effectively nothing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I believe it effectively does nothing in the case described.
Well this will depend from your GM because there are no rules about doomed and eidolons.
Eidolons don't get their own lives. They are existences linked to summoners in a way that they live while the summoners lives and dies when summoner dies. So in fact doomed condition has no effect for eidolons. But if your GM wants for some balance or storytelling reasons he can extend the doomed condition to summoner (this is not RAW it's my homebrew just to balance some situations or storytelling).
Yet I wrote about balance but in practice this also doesn't exist for short existence summons. So it's not a big thing if the same monster or hazard give a doomed condition for them anyway (some people still uses lesser summons as "sacrifices" for hazards up to the current days just because this expendable situation of these creatures).
So by RAW there's no effect if an Eidolon is doomed but if your GM want that this doomed extends to you for some reason well he/she/it can do this anyway!
I agree I personally only will do something like this for a storytelling event. Something like "you are now cursed by a strong specific curse that put doomed condition to you (and probably others in more advanced stage)" now you need to search a way to remove this curse from you" (and I probably will put an DC high enought to make even a nat 20 in remove curse fail).
In the case of some storytelling conditioning like this I would transfer the doomed from Eidolon to Summoner even if only the Eidolon was affected by curse itself due storytelling reasons.
But I probably don't do such thing if the condition comes from some random enemy mechanics that aren't directly related to storytelling progression. This would only break an advantage of play as summoner, ignore it because it's looks like a good advantage will end no much different than ignore Greater Juggernaut or Greater Resolve for classes the get these abilities.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well this will depend from your GM because there are no rules about doomed and eidolons.
So by RAW there's no effect if an Eidolon is doomed but if your GM want that this doomed extends to you for some reason well he/she/it can do this anyway!
Agreed. The closest the rules come to actually saying anything is in this paragraph here.
Lastly, the connection between you and your eidolon means you both share a single pool of Hit Points. Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your Hit Points, while healing either of you recovers your Hit Points. Like with your actions, if you and your eidolon are both subject to the same effect that affects your Hit Points, you apply those effects only once (applying the greater effect, if applicable).
That middle sentence that starts with "Like with your actions..." is referencing the later section on Lost and Altered Actions where it talks about how conditions like Slowed and Petrified affect the Summoner and Eidolon. Some conditions affect both, and some only affect one.
The only examples given for effects that affect shared resources is healing or damage effects that affect the shared Hit Points, and Slowed, Stunned, and Quickened that affect shared action counts. The examples given of conditions that don't affect a shared resource when it seems like they might are Immobilized, Petrified, Confused, and Controlled where the Eidolon is unable to use the actions, but the Summoner still can.
So it is up to the GM to determine if Doomed is an effect that affects the shared Hit Points, or if Dying value is also a shared resource even though it isn't called out explicitly as such. (Dying value is heavily implied to be a shared resource since having that condition affects both creatures and they can't have different values.)
Personally, since the value that the character dies at is common to both creatures, I would consider it a shared resource. And the Doomed condition would affect that shared resource.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Doomed condition does nothing to an eidolon as an Eidolon never dies. The summoner gets knocked unconscious and the eidolon unmanifests. The eidolon doesn't exist without the summoner manifesting it.
So there are no real rules to allow an eidolon to die, thus the doomed condition never has effect. Or dying or wounded.
Nowhere does it indicate the eidolon and summoner share conditions. So conditions that will never apply to an eidolon like doomed or dying or wounded never apply to the eidolon.
One of the unwritten advantages of the shared hit point pool. It's why I started to see the advantages of the single hit point pool as it provided some advantages to the summoner that were unusual for a PC. Not sure they were intended, but they are very powerful given the eidolon can operate a hundred feet from you and heal at two points.
Another reason why the summoner is a fairly powerful class in PF2.
Thank you all for the feedback, yeah it doing nothing sounds right RAW.
|
Doomed condition does nothing to an eidolon as an Eidolon never dies.
Thank you all for the feedback, yeah it doing nothing sounds right RAW.
I wouldn't be that quick. I agree that doomed isn't shared. I play a summoner myself and again and again I find interesting edge cases.
My interpretations of a few cases
Example 1 - likely why you say nothing happens:
Eidolon on doomed 1.
Eidolon HP pool drops to zero - Summoner gets dying 1, Eidolon unmanifests
Example 2:
Eidolon on doomed 4
My RAW interpretation - the Eidolon actually dies - the summoner is still alive. I'm aware this would cripple a summoner. So in a home game I would find a way that he gets a (new) Eidolon back. But for story reasons I would not allow a 3-action get an Eidolon back.
Example 3:
Combination of the above
Eidolon on doomed 2, Eidolon gets hit by a critical hit that drops the HP pool to 0 HP
Example 4:
Low level Eidolon climbs up a 80 feet high mountain flank to throw down a rope. Eidolon falls just before reaching the top. Eidolon suffers Massive Damage Ruling (>2 times its total HP) while falling next to the summoner. My interpretation by RAW - Eidolon is dead, Summoner unconscious and gains dying condition.
So I think by RAW with some creativity it is possible to kill an Eidolon. But not in the simple case you refer to which likely is doomed 1. You need at least doomed 2+ and a hit or the massive damage rule to kill an Eidolon.
Yes - rules assume that the Eidolon unmanifests and doesn't die - which probably is correct in >>99% of cases. As such there is nothing in the rules what happens after that / how to get an Eidolon back.
My RAW interpretation - the Eidolon actually dies - the summoner is still alive. I'm aware this would cripple a summoner. So in a home game I would find a way that he gets a (new) Eidolon back. But for story reasons I would not allow a 3-action get an Eidolon back.
...
Yes - rules assume that the Eidolon unmanifests and doesn't die - which probably is correct in >>99% of cases. As such there is nothing in the rules what happens after that / how to get an Eidolon back.
No, there's no exceptional cases. Eidolons do not die, eidolons not even have it's own hit points:
Your eidolon appears in an open space adjacent to you, and can then take a single action. If your eidolon was already manifested, you unmanifest it instead.
The conduit that allows your eidolon to manifest is also a tether between you. Your eidolon must remain within 100 feet of you at all times and can't willingly go beyond that limit. If forced beyond this distance, or if you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, your eidolon's physical form dissolves: your eidolon unmanifests, and you need to use Manifest Eidolon to manifest it again.
Your eidolon unmanifests there's nothing about die here.
...
Lastly, the connection between you and your eidolon means you both share a single pool of Hit Points. Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your Hit Points, while healing either of you recovers your Hit Points. Like with your actions, if you and your eidolon are both subject to the same effect that affects your Hit Points, you apply those effects only once (applying the greater effect, if applicable). For instance, if you and your eidolon get caught in an area effect that would heal or damage you both, only the greater amount of healing or damage applies.
...
Eidolons cannot die! Just summoners can die and take their eidolon with them.
|
|
Eidolons cannot die! Just summoners can die and take their eidolon with them.
So what happens when the Eidolon gets doomed 4+?
Source Core Rulebook pg. 619 4.0
A powerful force has gripped your soul, calling you closer to death. Doomed always includes a value. The dying value at which you die is reduced by your doomed value. If your maximum dying value is reduced to 0, you instantly die. When you die, you're no longer doomed.Your doomed value decreases by 1 each time you get a full night's rest.
I think there is agreement that the doomed isn't transferred to the summoner - so the summoner doesn't die if the Eidolon gets doomed 4.
But why according to RAW does the Eidolon not die?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But why according to RAW does the Eidolon not die?
No mechanics of Eidolon ever mention the Eidolon dying.
Eidolons only unmanifest.
Your eidolon must remain within 100 feet of you at all times and can't willingly go beyond that limit. If forced beyond this distance, or if you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, your eidolon's physical form dissolves: your eidolon unmanifests, and you need to use Manifest Eidolon to manifest it again.
And they don't have a HP pool of their own - they share their Summoner's.
Lastly, the connection between you and your eidolon means you both share a single pool of Hit Points. Damage taken by either you or the eidolon reduces your Hit Points, while healing either of you recovers your Hit Points.
So Doomed would technically fall into an undefined place the same as a Death effect that doesn't cause HP damage. The Eidolon is not actually immune to the effect - it just doesn't do anything to them.
If you don't agree with that, maybe turn the question around and answer it yourself. Why according to RAW does the Eidolon die?
|
|
If you don't agree with that, maybe turn the question around and answer it yourself. Why according to RAW does the Eidolon die?
Step 1 - what is an Eidolon
Secrets of Magic P.57
Eidolon: A creature with this trait is an eidolon. An action or spell with this trait can be performed by an eidolon only. An item with
this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can’t use items that don’t have this trait. (An eidolon can have up to two items invested.)
I bolded creature !!
Step 2 - Rules for Dying - apology if remastered changed them - still working on my old rules - but I would say an Eidolon is included in other significant characters and creatures
Knocked Out and Dying
Creatures cannot be reduced to fewer than 0 Hit Points. When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die and are removed from play unless the attack was nonlethal, in which case they are instead knocked out for a significant amount of time (usually 1 minute or more). When undead and
construct creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they are destroyed.
Player characters, their companions, and other significant characters and creatures don’t automatically die when they reach 0 Hit Points. Instead, they are knocked out and are at risk of death.
Step 3: Dying
Dying
You are bleeding out or otherwise at death’s door. While you have this condition, you are unconscious. Dying always includes a value. If this value ever reaches dying 4, you die.
This part means that if the Eidolon ever reaches dying 4 it dies as well. That this seldom happens is due to the shared HP pool it will unmanifest if the summoner goes unconscious. Once unmanifested (at least in my view) it no longer dies. So you need some instant death to kill the Eidolon - ideally an instant death to the Eidolon only.
Step 4: Doomed
Doomed
A powerful force has gripped your soul, calling you closer to death. Doomed always includes a value. The dying value at which you die is reduced by your doomed value. If your maximum dying value is reduced to 0, you instantly die. When you die, you’re no longer doomed.
Your doomed value decreases by 1 each time you get a full night’s rest.
Edit/addition
So in my view killing an Eidolon by RAW is difficult but not impossible. If you Eidolon goes towards doomed 4 - unmanifest it - don't wait for it to reach doomed 4.
Why according to RAW does the Eidolon die?
Isn't the answer to this fairly simple? In this scenario the eidolon is subject to an effect that says that they die. That's it, that's the answer.
Now from there we can go dig into eidolon rules to figure out if there's a reason that doesn't work or doesn't make sense to allow even if it does, but "Why should this mechanic function normally" is not a question that logically makes sense for how Pathfinder is constructed. Abilities don't need to give themselves permission to do what they say they do.
Creatures cannot be reduced to fewer than 0 Hit Points. When most creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they die and are removed from play unless the attack was nonlethal, in which case they are instead knocked out for a significant amount of time (usually 1 minute or more). When undead and construct creatures reach 0 Hit Points, they are destroyed.
A skeleton and an animated broom are also classified as creatures. But they don't follow the Doomed rules either.
In fact, all creatures other than the PCs are classified as creatures - yet they don't use the same death and dying rules as the PCs and Doomed effect wouldn't apply to them.
So even though an Eidolon states that it is a creature, that doesn't mean that the Doomed effect does anything to them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I honestly don't think that Eidolon was made to be killed that's why they share HP with summoner and unmanifests when the summoner falls unconscious.
Kill a Eidolon would end break the summoner in way similar to remove the casting ability of a wizard. We also don't have rule to get a new eidolon like we have with familiars and companions that including are not necessary to a PC to work (only the Witch familiar is to prepare the spells but its returns when killed every day to allow it to prepare its spells).
If you really want to kill an eidolon probably is better to kill the summoner with him and then the other player may try to resurrect the summoner.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Kill a Eidolon would end break the summoner in way similar to remove the casting ability of a wizard. We also don't have rule to get a new eidolon like we have with familiars and companions
Again, agreed.
No matter how you rule the interaction between Doomed, Death effects, and Eidolons, you are going to have to introduce some table rulings.
One choice is certainly to have the Eidolon die independently of the Summoner - but then you have to add rules for how the Summoner is going to get an Eidolon again.
Another choice is to rule that maximum dying value is a shared resource, so Doomed applies to both when one of the two is affected by it and that Death effects will propagate through the Summoner's link and kill the Summoner as well as the Eidolon when the Eidolon is hit with one. No, the Summoner rules don't actually state that anywhere. But it makes sense and it isn't any more of a houserule than the option in the previous paragraph is.
|
|
A skeleton and an animated broom are also classified as creatures. But they don't follow the Doomed rules either.
So what has this to do with the Eidolon?
Doomed:
Doomed
Your life is ebbing away,
Neither undead nor constructs are living creatures. I'm not aware that an Eidolon (at least most of them) fall into the category of construct or undead - both who are immune to death effects.
I honestly don't think that Eidolon was made to be killed that's why they share HP with summoner and unmanifests when the summoner falls unconscious.
Let me state this in a different way that I agree with
I honestly don't think that Eidolon was made to be killed on its own that's why they share HP with summoner and unmanifests when the summoner falls unconscious.
The rules assume that the summoner dies with/ahead of the eidolon - so death to the Eidolon (and reversal of it) doesn't need coverage.
RAW asks the question is it possible - not is it intended / does it actually ever happen apart of a thought experiment.
|
|
I agree that killing an Eidolon (while leaving the summoner alive) will cripple the summoner. But I would also say killing the summoner cripples him as well. Can't see much of a difference here.
But back to the Eidolon death - how to get it back according to RAW
Step 1:
The Eidolon dies. It is dead - but as long as the summoner is still alive it is dead only - there is no rule it unmanifests when dead. There isn't even a rule that you can't summon the dead eidolon.
Step 2:
Cast Raise Dead on the Eidolon
Seems it isn't more difficult to bring back a dead Eidolon as it is to bring back a dead summoner. Actually it probably is easier as you don't have to worry about a dead body - just unmanifest until you reach a place to cast Raise Dead and manifest again. Problem solved.
Edit: Seems no table/house rules needed after all. If either the summoner or the Eidolon dies you need some resurrection to make the character playable again.
The Eidolon dies. It is dead - but as long as the summoner is still alive it is dead only - there is no rule it unmanifests when dead. There isn't even a rule that you can't summon the dead eidolon.
There is also no rule that things do work the way that you are claiming. So this boils down to an argument from ignorance. The rules don't actually say one way or the other, so you can't claim that your ruling is the only correct one.
Each table is going to have to come to a table ruling (a houserule required because the printed rules are incomplete, ambiguous, or contradictory).
|
|
The Eidolon dies. It is dead - but as long as the summoner is still alive it is dead only - there is no rule it unmanifests when dead. There isn't even a rule that you can't summon the dead eidolon.There is also no rule that things do work the way that you are claiming. So this boils down to an argument from ignorance. The rules don't actually say one way or the other, so you can't claim that your ruling is the only correct one.
Each table is going to have to come to a table ruling (a houserule required because the printed rules are incomplete, ambiguous, or contradictory).
Oh - expect lots of table discussions about that if it ever happens because you never heard how another table handled it and you are used for the eidolon to go away if the summoner ever goes unconsious.
RAW - if there is a rule it dies then it dies
RAW - if there is a rule it unmanifests if unmanifests
There is a rule for the first and I hope I showed by RAW it applies to an Eidolon as well (even if that only happens in rare circumstances)
There is also a rule how to unmanifest an Eidolon. Actually there are several. When the summoner goes >100 feet away, if the summoner goes unconcious, if the summoner willingly unmanifest it - these are the ones coming to mind.
There is no rule that it unmanifests if the Eidolon is dead. So by RAW this would be a house rule. It might be a sensible one - but it still would be a house rule. Don't confuse it that it unmanifests when the summoner dies. This is covered by RAW.
Edit: Actually if you could find a way that the summoner dies without being unconscious at the same time then the Eidolon should stay. Maybe that is possible via becoming a Lich or something similar.
Hm - Ghoul Fever - death - becoming a Summoner Ghoul with Eidolon - just need to ensure you never go unconscious at any step ... Off course easier to resummon it I guess.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is also no rule that things do work the way that you are claiming.
The rule saying it works that way is the effect saying the creature dies. You don't need an extra rule saying "no really"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The rule saying it works that way is the effect saying the creature dies. You don't need an extra rule saying "no really"
There is also no rule that things do work the way that you are claiming.
So... Then the Summoner just... stops being a Summoner? How is that mechanically any noticeable difference to the character's role in the campaign than the Death effect just killing the Summoner as well?
And that doesn't run afoul of the Ambiguous Rules rule because...?
Because that is where that 'No, really' request is going to be coming from. There isn't any mechanism for recovering an Eidolon. Not one that is available at all levels of play, as a common option, and with the cost of only downtime that Animal Companions and Familiars have.
Raise Dead and Resurrect are both mid-level spell/ritual, are Uncommon, and have pretty high monetary cost.
If a GM allow the eidolon to die probably the only RAW way to take it back is using Wish ritual. Honestly this is completely unbalanced and unfun.
Honestly I just recommend to just ignore the doomed condition or transfer it to summoner.
IMO Eidolons are not a full creature, just a manifestation of one. They aren't really live by themselves but are part of the summoner.
Anyway I was revising some rules and I notice a thing:
After you die, you can’t act or regain actions or be affected by spells that target creatures (unless they specifically target dead creatures), and for all other purposes you are an object. When you die, you are reduced to 0 Hit Points if you had a different amount, and you can’t be brought above 0 Hit Points as long as you remain dead. Some magic can bring creatures back to life, such as the resurrect ritual or the raise dead spell.
Now. The Eidolon shares the HP with the summoner. The Eidolon died and its hit points are reduced to 0. What's happens to the summoner when the Eidolon dies!? The summoner dies too!!!
This make sense with the Eidolon concept of it's linked to summoner life.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So... Then the Summoner just... stops being a Summoner? How is that mechanically any noticeable difference to the character's role in the campaign than the Death effect just killing the Summoner as well?
It doesn't really. It effectively renders the character nonfunctional and will require some sort of GM intervention to address (whether that's through uncommon options, some sort of narrative play, or a new character entirely).
... But that's the same situation you'd be in if the Summoner had gotten Doomed 4 instead, or if you were playing a Barbarian or Fighter or Wizard or Ranger and got hit by a similar effect. The fact that the Summoner is essentially operating as two bodies adds a narrative quirk here that might be interesting to play around with, but mechanically this is about what you'd expect to happen.
And that doesn't run afoul of the Ambiguous Rules rule because...?
Because that is where that 'No, really' request is going to be coming from. There isn't any mechanism for recovering an Eidolon. Not one that is available at all levels of play, as a common option, and with the cost of only downtime that Animal Companions and Familiars have.
Raise Dead and Resurrect are both mid-level spell/ritual, are Uncommon, and have pretty high monetary cost.
I don't think it runs afoul of 'too bad to be true' because rendering a character non-functional as the result of an instant death mechanic is the normal expectation for those abilities. The only reason it looks weird is because you have two characters in one package, but the summoner and eidolon are fundamentally entangled in a way that even witches and their familiars aren't, so that's not a comparison that quite works.
If eidolon is hit by a death effect, it's reduced to zero hit points and summoner drops causing the summoner to drop. It can't come back until the summoner is back on its feet and can summon it back.
Doomed condition if it reaches Doom 4 or more causes the eidolon to die and the summoner is reduced to zero hit points. Cannot be resummoned until summoner is back on their feet.
You could as a DM handle this a variety of ways absent guidance from Paizo.
1. You can summon the creature until its doomed condition is reduced under 4 which takes days of rest or some kind of restorative magic.
2. All its conditions clear after death, then it comes back clean once the summoner is back on its feet.
What would be best is if in next iteration of the summoner in the Remaster, they do some more polish on how the shared hit point pool works for death. That would be best long-term.
I have no real problems with alternative interpretations myself of how to run this because the shared hit point pool created all types of ambiguities in the rules when it comes to the summoner and eidolon requiring GM rulings and interpretations which can be justified a variety of ways.
I personally fall on the side of the eidolon doesn't really exist outside of the summoner. I think it is punishment enough to have the summoner knocked unconscious then to remove the eidolon for any period of time leaving the summoner a 4 slot caster with caster attack and defenses.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So... Then the Summoner just... stops being a Summoner? How is that mechanically any noticeable difference to the character's role in the campaign than the Death effect just killing the Summoner as well?It doesn't really. It effectively renders the character nonfunctional and will require some sort of GM intervention to address (whether that's through uncommon options, some sort of narrative play, or a new character entirely).
... But that's the same situation you'd be in if the Summoner had gotten Doomed 4 instead, or if you were playing a Barbarian or Fighter or Wizard or Ranger and got hit by a similar effect.
OK. That's pretty much my point.
The ruling that Death effects don't affect the Eidolon because an Eidolon doesn't die is not exactly RAW. And it is a bit of a buff to the Eidolon.
The ruling that the Death effect kills the Summoner as well as the Eidolon no matter which of them it directly targets is not exactly RAW. But it is reasonable and it is balanced with how other characters interact with Death effects.
The strict RAW ruling is a troll option. I don't recommend using that. Just use the option that a death effect that kills the Eidolon kills the Summoner too and skip the troll of the player.