| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, we all know how queer Golarion is. But have we ever gotten any indications of what terms Golarion people use for the actual queer groups? Like, say, in Varisia, we know conservative Chelish nobles and members of the Magnimar establishment don't much care for The Gays, while small-town folk don't see it as any big deal, but has language formed around it?
Do they just use the exact same terms, or have they come up with their own?
I'd love to spitball! But first, I want to be sure nobody's got an obscure source that reveals Varisian locals call trans people "the Called" and lesbians "birdwatchers", or what-have-you.
One person I know likes the idea of lesbians and sapphics having terms linked to the Prismatic Ray, like "radiants".
So, we all know how queer Golarion is. But have we ever gotten any indications of what terms Golarion people use for the actual queer groups? Like, say, in Varisia, we know conservative Chelish nobles and members of the Magnimar establishment don't much care for The Gays, while small-town folk don't see it as any big deal, but has language formed around it?
Do they just use the exact same terms, or have they come up with their own?
I'd love to spitball! But first, I want to be sure nobody's got an obscure source that reveals Varisian locals call trans people "the Called" and lesbians "birdwatchers", or what-have-you.
One person I know likes the idea of lesbians and sapphics having terms linked to the Prismatic Ray, like "radiants".
Oh, I do love that! So okay, progress, we have a slur now! :p
I had always assumed the Chellish etc. noble perspective was more "you owe it to your family line to produce an heir, what you do for love or pleasure beyond that is your business."
Oh, I do love that! So okay, progress, we have a slur now! :p
Well, I wouldn't call it a slur, per se(and I certainly didnt mean it to come across as one)...but certainly something a socially awkward, or ignorant person might say.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have always been very fond of the term "late‑blooming" found in the knights of lastwall book to describe trans people. It feels very poetic.
That's fun! I like "late" being used within trans communities, especially in a playful "the late [deadname]" way.
I should say that my take on Chelish nobles comes primarily from the "traditional" noble family of the Scarnettis, who are living in Varisia at present and might have left Cheliax before Asmodeus's little takeover. They're also explicitly racist and anti-sex work, of course. It's kind of funny how they're just constantly the worst, like the villains of a kids' show.
The vibe I get from this is that, at least in Varisia, homophobia is more something you encounter in some of the big city-states--especially those cities more influenced by the culture of the colonizing Chelish. Even there, I'm sure it's an outlier, something you're only likely to run into if, say, your theater company relies on investments from the wrong noble family.
Creative Director
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
The vibe I get from this is that, at least in Varisia, homophobia is more something you encounter in some of the big city-states--especially those cities more influenced by the culture of the colonizing Chelish. Even there, I'm sure it's an outlier, something you're only likely to run into if, say, your theater company relies on investments from the wrong noble family.
The intent was more that the Scarnettis are just awful people with narrow-minded/unpleasant personalities. Every small town, alas, has folks who are haters, and it felt more realistic to me to include some haters in Sandpoint than to ignore it. Coincidentally, this also gives Sandpoint some good antagonists to oppose who aren't just monsters to fight.
Interesting! So was there anything specifically in mind for why Cyrdak had to leave Magnimar, if it wasn't bigotry? I felt like something was being hinted at there.
Thank you very much for weighing in, by the way!
|
Creative Director
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Interesting! So was there anything specifically in mind for why Cyrdak had to leave Magnimar, if it wasn't bigotry? I felt like something was being hinted at there.
Thank you very much for weighing in, by the way!
Cyrdak is a troublemaker and enjoys pushing buttons and isn't the kind of guy who'd leave a perceived slight unanswered, but Sandpoint: Light of the Lost Coast goes into greater detail as to why he had to flee Magnimar...
Ooh, that's very fun! Good for him.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is just my head canon, but I always read Nex as a place where people used magic so often, especially polymorphic magics, that the idea that a person hasn’t spent some amount of time living in different identity categories (including gender) would be kind of strange. Like maybe some folks struggle to afford such opportunities, but that generally, exploring different ways of being would be a social value.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, that makes me think of Always Human, if anyone's read that webcomic. Very different genre, similar idea!
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is just my head canon, but I always read Nex as a place where people used magic so often, especially polymorphic magics, that the idea that a person hasn’t spent some amount of time living in different identity categories (including gender) would be kind of strange. Like maybe some folks struggle to afford such opportunities, but that generally, exploring different ways of being would be a social value.
This goes doubly when you remember Nex famously hosts a city of alchemists, Oenopion. Why not play with your body chemistry if you have easy access?
|
Given that Nex also has facilities like "Flesh Forges" It's no small leap to assume a change of physical sex to match or explore gender is a simple thing... for the rich.
What about some innuedo or double entndre. Like in our world when we talk about a relationship with a significant age gap we call them "May-December romances" or back in like the 70's gay people were "Friends of Dorothy". Or terms like Bear, twink, otter, etc... what are some terms like that that would crop up in Golarion?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean part of the trick to thinking about language, especially coded/euphemistic language is understanding the need for it. If there is no one on the planet insisting that relationships must be between one man and one woman, and no religions who’s gods are putting forth such ideas as edicts or anathemas, then there are probably places where there is no such thing as a gay or queer or lesbian relationship, because those are just relationships. People don’t tend to develop language to talk about differences that are largely invisible or not the subject of public scrutiny or discussion. It does seem like sexuality in much of Golarion is just not a subject of political discourse, probably because writing adventures about it falls outside of Paizo company baseline topics, even if the adventures and setting material does do a good job with representation generally. Removing alignment might make it easier to have antagonists so focused on the control of other people that controlling bodily autonomy and sexuality could a plot line without overt politicization, but I doubt these would be aspects of villainy pushed to the center stage in a game module.
So negative language around gender and sexuality in Golarion feels like something that wouldn’t have much cause for getting invented in the first place to lead to reclaiming words like queer, but I could see places where relationships like those of highly revered gods would be celebrated and “noticed” socially in a positive context enough for language to evolve around it. I think the churches of Shelyn and Calistra would be two of the most long standing sources of creative expression around sex and sexuality, with Nocticula being a new player in the creative language game. Maybe Cayden, and maybe Zon Kuthon would be sources of creative inspiration for language too.
(Sorry, I am a language scholar, I can’t help but dive deep into how words take on meaning. This is intended to be a fun thread and I am trying to positively contribute to that, but if I am off base, I apologize).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I did draw attention in the OP to the fact that homophobia does seem to exist in Golarion, it's just the losing side by a wide margin nowadays.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For sure, and even if it isn’t center stage (which I don’t want it to be) it could be caused by any number of malignant forces in world beyond gods enough for it to affect cultures and languages.
I guess, I would just personally want it to be localized enough that in many areas those two married guys that run the local book store are just married, and they could even have kids without requiring any special terminology or backstory because there are spells that turn humans into rabbits forever, and there could be bountiful domestic rituals that are as cheap and accessible as any GM wants them to be in their setting.
But I would also love it if, for example, holy Calistrian texts detail methods of giving pleasure with clinical, economic inspired terminology that would clearly indicate that understanding what a person wants is the best way to keep them coming back for more with bigger and bigger stacks of coins, which I think would probably generate a plethora of metaphors and coded language that could be rich and secretive.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I remember Garth Nix's The Old Kingdom series had aroace people being called "singletons", which was fun. I also always enjoy euphemisms like "confirmed bachelor/ette".
Personally, in my games, "adventurer" and "queer" are very often used as synonyms. Adventuring is an almost infamously queer-dominated profession. In fact, the feminine form of "adventuress" is exclusively a term for lesbian women, and using it simply to refer to a female adventurer will generally get you laughed at. At an "adventuring bar", you really have to be careful accepting invitations to adventuring parties. It's important to be extremely clear on what exactly they mean. Sometimes they're going on a dungeon delve. Sometimes they want to add you to their polycule. Sometimes it's both.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
See I feel like with Cayden Cailean as your diety, it is also fine not to be too specific about what kind of adventuring party you are about to join. I mean, either way you wake up the next morning sore, hungry, and in need of a stiff drink.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm thinking, with how language goes, we only have terms if there's a long-enough need to distinguish a thing, at least in a certain community; otherwise, you have to use phrases to describe it and be specific. But there's also different reasons why something might be distinguished, and why there might end up with a term for it, one that gets used by more than just five people.
Like how we don't have a word for "someone who won't eat a dish where there's meat and vegetables mixed together", but we DO have a word for "someone who won't eat animal products", likely because "vegan" is at the intersection of "stuff people do as part of their politics" and "something people can market their products as, to take advantage of a consumer base"; I don't know if either would be sufficient, but both together means it was pretty much inevitable. (I think; if I'm wrong here, at least it's in the context of illustrating a concept in regards to a fictional world.)
So, in a world where what-we-call-queerness isn't normally something considered unusual, what things might be worthy of note?
There was a mention of noble families, where it's like "we don't care who you're attracted to, just make sure to produce an heir"; they might have a term meaning like "low chance of children", that encompasses marriages later in life, along with "I'll do it because it's my duty, but not often" gay or asexual people, along with couples who seem to just not be fertile.
If the "assume bi/pan unless stated otherwise" applies throughout, then they'd need a term for "straight" as much as they'd need a term for "gay"; although, without "opposite-sex" being a default, they might instead sort it as "only attracted to women" and "only attracted to men", without regards for the gender of the person being described. Well, only certain places would NEED a term for that, because in most instances "only attracted to men/women" would suffice; so any term would prolly come from places where people are hooking up. Which would be highly influenced by what kind of people are there, and their aesthetics; so you could get anything from "likes [suggestively-shaped food]" to "worships at the east/west altar" (after where there's portraits of saints of a particular gender).
Now the REAL fun comes from when slang terms leave their original context.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe, like the people who won't eat food that touches food, monosexuals are just called "picky eaters". ;)
picky breeders
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Worships at the east/west altar"
Does she... You know... "Rise with the sun?"
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I could imagine something gesturing at the Prismatic Ray as a way to refer to lesbians, especially polyamorous ones. "Does she dance with the three?" or something to the effect.
I could imagine something gesturing at the Prismatic Ray as a way to refer to lesbians, especially polyamorous ones. "Does she dance with the three?" or something to the effect.
Friends of Sarenrae?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Varisians refer to trans people who haven't realized they're trans yet as being "still in the cocoon".
Because I like playing around with edge cases, maybe "doesn't want children" is used to describe someone who's exclusively attracted to people of the same sex OR someone who prefers sex acts which wouldn't result in pregnancy OR someone who doesn't want to raise children, while "does want children" is the converse.
This means "she doesn't want children, but she wants children" is not only a valid sentence, it also has six different possible meanings; is she lesbian and looking to adopt, or is she het and intending to remain child-free? Of course, people would only SAY something like that if they were intending to confuse, or if they were writing lyrics and needed a particular scansion; normally the phrase would only be used if it'd make sense in context.
And as for why there'd be euphemisms, without bigotry... it could be related to leaving someone room for how exactly things are? Having a couple different possible interpretations (even if a certain one is clearly intended), so someone can confirm whichever the choose... I don't know, this all made sense in my head but I'm rather tired now.
|
|
So if they are, to use your euphemism "not looking to have children" but want to adopt it could be "She not looking to have children, unless they're Cailean's" Since Cayden Cailean's followers are known to run orphanages, and many orphans who end up following him take his last name.
And I do like the Caylis term for people who are openly non-romantic, but enjoy physical relationships.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Mummy's Mask features a gay couple as part of the early antagonistic rival party who can be pacified or recruited, without any suggestion that it is unusual or something they're hiding, which is pretty appropriate since in real life, Egypt has a long queer history - one tomb may feature a pair of male lovers, and another might feature female lovers (though they could just as arguably have been twins), a copy of the Book of the Dead belonging to a woman notes "having sex with the priestesses in the temple" as something to deny at the divine tribunal (suggesting is existed), a fragmentarily preserved story might document the affair of a male Pharaoh and one of his generals, homosexuality is known as "the acts of Egypt" in the Bible, and of course Egypt is where Hadrian's lover Antinous fell into the river and was posthumously deified. At the very least, I've been assuming that while marriage between different sexes is encouraged on Golarion (or at least Osirion) for reproduction, to ensure the passing of property and caring of the elderly, and continue post-mortem ancestor commemoration/veneration, attraction is considered a separate matter, and that while enough money and magic can overcome the barrier of not being able to conceive or carry a child, in the absence of knowledge of DNA adoption is perfectly normalised in the Roman sense, an adopted child just as legitimate as a biological one.
Without technical terms, culture falls on slang. "Lesbian" and "Sapphic" are used as an homage to the poet Sappho, but of course (barring some interplanetary teleportation) Sappho is not known on Golarion. I once joked that on Golarion, the word "lesbian" comes from a paladin of Shelyn called Lesbiana whose love of a woman became legendary, though of course that's entirely fanon, but there are some in-universe examples on Golarion that would be famous - Cayden is strongly hinted to be bisexual, the Iblydan Hero-Gods Upion and Warrik are a bit of an homage to the Sacred Band of Thebes, and the Iridian Fold are fairly well known same-sex partners, albeit of a different nature. I could easily imagine someone slyly asking "you two together in the Iblydan sense?" Or "up for a bit of Caydenite fun?" Or even people living in an "Iridian Partnerships" as the Golarion equivalent to "they were roommates."
|
Creative Director
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
While I could see the justification for coming up with in-world terms for things that in our world rely upon real-world languages and words based on locations and the like, that would only make it more confusing for readers, writers, and editors to maintain continuity, and worse, would damage our goals of having LGBTQ+ representation in print. So we use words like "lesbian" as needed, and they're used in-world as well.
It's less important for representation, and not to make light of something as important to me as making sure LGBTQ+ content is front and center in what I work on, but that's the same reason why we retain words that the English language has adopted from other languages for creatures and concepts and the like. For example, we'll call a tyrannosaurus a tyrannosaurus even though a tradition of using scientific names in Latin for dinosaurs isn't an in-world thing. If you say "The tyrannosaurus attacks" that's something that any reader can immediately understand and has a much more visceral element than, say, if we had to say "The dlorvanukus attacks" or even "The thunder king attack." Those descriptions lack the definition a real world word like tyrannosaurus has, and requires either more context in the text for us to explain what's going on or makes the reader (and by extension the writer and developer and editor) have to do extra research to know what's going on. It's a barrier to entry.
Doesn't mean we can't or won't come up with new words or ways to talk about this in-world, but we'll always be willing and eager to use words that are already extant in the English language to convey what we mean. Since we publish and create our content using that language. We publish our text for you to read, not our NPCs or your characters! :-P
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, this is 100% a conversation for GMs who want to liven up their own versions of Golarion. I don't think anyone is disappointed that Paizo plays it safe, but personally, as a GM, I love looking into a fantasy world and inventing slang and terminology and little cultural quirks! It's part of why the Travel Guide is such a great book--it's a deep dive into elements of the setting that maybe aren't super relevant to the grander conflicts but add enormous flavor to the little moments.
Would I expect Rise of the Runelords to include a sidebar explaining traditional stone giant cuisine to me? Of course not! That would be a huge waste of wordcount. Would I enjoy speculating about it and devour any resources I could find on the matter? You bet. :)
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
...Cayden is strongly hinted to be bisexual...
Actually, ever since Highhelm it has been fully explicit, with it being stated Cayden and Trudd having sharing multiple trysts. Just a fun little thing to note!
|
|
A fair point has been made that with the lack of wide spread taboos and hang ups regarding LGBTQ relationships, terminology regarding them would not be as colorful and euphamistic as it is for us.
However, what about inter-ancestral relationships. I'm not talking about simiply humans/elves, or Elves/Orcs, y'know, basicaly the same thing with a few cosmetic changes, but seriously varied creatures.
like is there a term for a person from a medium ancestry in a relationship with a small ancestr? Or what about being an animal ancestry (including the more common humanoids) in a relationship with a plant ancestry?
Do Gebbites have terms for their undead who have relationships with the Quick (living)?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A fair point has been made that with the lack of wide spread taboos and hang ups regarding LGBTQ relationships, terminology regarding them would not be as colorful and euphamistic as it is for us.
However, what about inter-ancestral relationships. I'm not talking about simiply humans/elves, or Elves/Orcs, y'know, basicaly the same thing with a few cosmetic changes, but seriously varied creatures.
like is there a term for a person from a medium ancestry in a relationship with a small ancestr? Or what about being an animal ancestry (including the more common humanoids) in a relationship with a plant ancestry?
Do Gebbites have terms for their undead who have relationships with the Quick (living)?
I guess a quickie in Golarion is a very different thing than on Earth.
Because I like playing around with edge cases, maybe "doesn't want children" is used to describe someone who's exclusively attracted to people of the same sex OR someone who prefers sex acts which wouldn't result in pregnancy OR someone who doesn't want to raise children, while "does want children" is the converse.
...
I'll just note that, given the existence of Serum of Sex Shift, same-sex couples in Golarion could reproduce.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like "sex" has like thirty competing definitions nowadays before we even get into the other big category, but under the definition I think you're using (sex being purely physical traits linked primarily to reproductive characteristics), that wouldn't be a same-sex couple anymore. ;)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I feel like "sex" has like thirty competing definitions nowadays before we even get into the other big category, but under the definition I think you're using (sex being purely physical traits linked primarily to reproductive characteristics), that wouldn't be a same-sex couple anymore. ;)
Yes, since the issue raised here was one of reproductive viability, I was using the term strictly in the sense of reproduction.
And they would only temporarily need to be the same sex (at least in terms of producing gametes). They could always use another Serum to undo the change once either conception has occurred or the baby is born (depending on which sex they shifted from).
So, for example, a couple who both have ovaries and uteruses, could use the serum to transform one of them into a form where they produced sperm, conceive a child, and then the current sperm producer could transform back.
As I understand the serum to work, the offspring would be the biological child of both parents — having its DNA (aside from the usual mutations) be from both parents.
So lumping same-sex couples into the "don't want to have kids" category is unjustified in Golarion even more than it would be in the real world.
True! That being said, I feel like the vast majority of same-sex couples either wouldn't be able to afford a level 7 item that costs 60 gp or wouldn't want to spend ten months in a potentially dysphoric body, especially in the communities where this slang would originate. Of course, since they could just adopt, there's still an argument that the slang wouldn't track. Of course, slang isn't always focused on what's statistically relevant!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It feels like there should be a ritual that lets any two people who want to create a child do so. There are probably deities that think "perform that ritual" is part of their job.
Like this is a magic world, so let's not assume that like Dwarves and Iruxi have the same kind of reproductive system as humans do, but that where there's a will there is a way.
Oh, that's such a fun idea! Might need a clarification for species like the ghoran, automatons and wyrwoods, though, all of whom are, I think, explicitly unable to procreate.
Oh, that's such a fun idea! Might need a clarification for species like the ghoran, automatons and wyrwoods, though, all of whom are, I think, explicitly unable to procreate.
I think the answer is simply if the ancestry is unable to procreate, the child is just not that ancestry. Like if an gnome and an automaton has a child, it's automatically a gnome (and this is like the one sense in which taking the Adopted Ancestry for an automaton automatically makes sense.)
Oh, yeah, I'm thinking about what happens if two automatons try to do the ritual together. Anyways, I'm nitpicking--this is a really cool idea!