Remastered Staff Nexus Wizard Theory


Rules Discussion


Is the Staff Nexus still not supposed to gain charges on preparation since the line about it not getting charges is gone from the block,
" It contains one cantrip and one 1st-level spell, both from your spellbook, but it gains no charges normally during your preparations; you must expend a spell slot to grant it charges in the same way you would add additional charges to a normal staf."
its now
" It has the magical trait and contains one cantrip and one 1st-rank spell, both from your spellbook. During your daily preparations, you can expend one spell to grant the staff a number of charges equal to that spell’s rank, which dissipate after 24 hours."." In the next block of the remastered text it states that "You can Craft your makeshift staff into any other type of magical staff for the new staff’s usual cost, adding the two spells you originally chose to the staff you Craft. *This staff gains charges from preparing it along with expended spells*. Magical staves are described in Staves in the GM Core."

So im kinda confused on how its supposed to be ran.


I don't think it was intended to change the behavior. The makeshift staff that you get initially has the wording changed from 'you must...' to 'you can...' when talking about adding charges to the staff. But the makeshift staff also does not have listed any other way of getting charges - it doesn't mention that you prepare the staff like a normal staff. That may have been left off in order to reduce word count.

Once you craft the staff into a normal staff with your additional spells, then it does mention that 'this' staff is prepared as normal.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Level 1 you get a makeshift staff.
The two spells are 1 cantrip and 1 1st rank spell from your known list.

Your highest rank spell slots are rank 1.
Each day you prepare the makeshift staff you get 1 charge for free.you can expend a spell slot for the day to add 1 more charge for that 24 hour period.

This is what im seeing from the entries on:
Player core 196
GM core 278

Does that look right to everyone?


Bluemagetim wrote:
Each day you prepare the makeshift staff you get 1 charge for free.

That is the part that is debatable.

It most definitely did not get any charges for free in the CRB version of Staff Nexus. You had to pay spell slots for the staff to get any charges.

Also to note, that doesn't change as you level up. A level 20 CRB-version Staff Nexus Wizard that has never actually upgraded their staff would still not be getting any charges for free - even though if they had prepared a regular staff, or upgraded their Nexus staff, they would be getting 10 charges for free.

It is a bit less clear if the Player Core version of Staff Nexus gives you those free charges.


wait does that mean the staff has 2 different sentences on the Player Core and GM Core ?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Recoveres153 wrote:
wait does that mean the staff has 2 different sentences on the Player Core and GM Core ?

The GM core entry is regarding preparing a staff in general.

I just assumed the makeshift staff gets prepared the same way any staff if prepared.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Finoan wrote:
Bluemagetim wrote:
Each day you prepare the makeshift staff you get 1 charge for free.

That is the part that is debatable.

It most definitely did not get any charges for free in the CRB version of Staff Nexus. You had to pay spell slots for the staff to get any charges.

Also to note, that doesn't change as you level up. A level 20 CRB-version Staff Nexus Wizard that has never actually upgraded their staff would still not be getting any charges for free - even though if they had prepared a regular staff, or upgraded their Nexus staff, they would be getting 10 charges for free.

It is a bit less clear if the Player Core version of Staff Nexus gives you those free charges.

Seems like the difference is stark.

If you can’t prepare the makeshift staff like you would any staff then it would seem a waste of an option for a thesis.

Edit: the crb rules seem pretty limiting. in rereading the player core rules it seems pretty clear the makeshift staff is a staff so you would follow the GM core rules on how to prepare a staff. The exception is the extra thing you can do with your makshift staff and any staff you craft using the makshift staff rules because of your nexus ability which is to expend spell slots to get extra charges.
Then at level 8 you can expend up to 2 charges and you can do this for any staff not just the makeshift or new makeshifts.


Bluemagetim wrote:

Seems like the difference is stark.

If you can’t prepare the makeshift staff like you would any staff then it would seem a waste of an option for a thesis.

Spell it out. How so?

What I am suggesting is exactly how it ran for years previously and people considered it one of the stronger Wizard Thesis options.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Finoan wrote:
Bluemagetim wrote:

Seems like the difference is stark.

If you can’t prepare the makeshift staff like you would any staff then it would seem a waste of an option for a thesis.

Spell it out. How so?

What I am suggesting is exactly how it ran for years previously and people considered it one of the stronger Wizard Thesis options.

I put an edit above.

Edit:
Is it strong to exchange a rank 1 spell slot for a single charge on your staff that has exactly one spell that you can cast with that charge?


Bluemagetim wrote:
Is it strong to exchange a rank 1 spell slot for a single charge on your staff that has exactly one spell that you can cast with that charge?

Well, that is only the effect at level 1 and level 2. Spell Blending thesis does literally nothing at those levels either. And also, like with Staff Nexus, no one is complaining that Spell Blending thesis is weak.

The point of using staves in general is to make the Wizard play more like a spontaneous caster. They have their staff with a repertoire that they have several charges to cast from. Staff Nexus eventually makes the Wizard quite a bit better at doing that than other Wizards. Generally Wizards can only downgrade the spells that they get. They can spend a high rank spell slot to add more charges and then use those charges to cast multiple lower rank spells. Staff Nexus Wizards can spend multiple lower rank spell slots and use the combined charges to cast a higher rank spell that the staff has.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Finoan wrote:
Bluemagetim wrote:
Is it strong to exchange a rank 1 spell slot for a single charge on your staff that has exactly one spell that you can cast with that charge?

Well, that is only the effect at level 1 and level 2. Spell Blending thesis does literally nothing at those levels either. And also, like with Staff Nexus, no one is complaining that Spell Blending thesis is weak.

The point of using staves in general is to make the Wizard play more like a spontaneous caster. They have their staff with a repertoire that they have several charges to cast from. Staff Nexus eventually makes the Wizard quite a bit better at doing that than other Wizards. Generally Wizards can only downgrade the spells that they get. They can spend a high rank spell slot to add more charges and then use those charges to cast multiple lower rank spells. Staff Nexus Wizards can spend multiple lower rank spell slots and use the combined charges to cast a higher rank spell that the staff has.

That does makes sense at higher levels when staves have more spell options for the charges and like you mentioned the wizard has higher rank spell slots to expend for a lot of charges that can be spent on more lower rank magic.

In thinking about it I have two problems.
First is the rules as they were written should not influence how we read the rules as they are now written.
The player core doesn't say anything to make me believe the makeshift staff operates any different than a normal staff for preparing it each day. Staff nexus also refers to the makeshift staff as a staff a lot, so i feel like i need to use normal staff rules to prepare it.
The second is the description of staff nexus is that these wizards take an early and intense adoption of staves from the first days of study. The CRB version did not represent mechanically this description the new rules in the player core do.


I think it's pretty clear, until you change your makeshift staff into a normal staff from the GMCore, the only way to charge it is with your own spell slots. The main benefit at lower levels is, I guess, having one extra prepared cantrip (because it doesn't require charges).

While I get that it isn't very good, like Finoan pointed out earlier it's a lot like Spell Blending: until level 3, Spell Blending can only really give you two cantrips in exchange for a 1st level slot. In the same way, at 3rd level a Staff Nexus Wizard gets the option to exchange one 2nd level slot for 2 casts of the spell in their staff. Before that, you're basically stuck with what you get.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
TheFinish wrote:

I think it's pretty clear, until you change your makeshift staff into a normal staff from the GMCore, the only way to charge it is with your own spell slots. The main benefit at lower levels is, I guess, having one extra prepared cantrip (because it doesn't require charges).

While I get that it isn't very good, like Finoan pointed out earlier it's a lot like Spell Blending: until level 3, Spell Blending can only really give you two cantrips in exchange for a 1st level slot. In the same way, at 3rd level a Staff Nexus Wizard gets the option to exchange one 2nd level slot for 2 casts of the spell in their staff. Before that, you're basically stuck with what you get.

I am confident the staff gains charges from normal preparation and gains any additional charges from expended spell slots.

It is a staff. it is prepared as normal for staves, the wizard with staff nexus has an additional ability to expend a slot for extra charges for the makeshift staff and any staff you craft it into improving at 8th and 16th.
The reason I am confident is because the remaster entry for staff nexus says on PC 196 unlike the CRB which states "but it gains no charges normally during your preparation" This statement is not found in the actual entry in the remaster book. There is no reason to limit the makeshift staff gained at level from preparing as normal for a staff without this sentence.

The confirmation of the ability to prepare the new staff made from the makeshift staff does not impose a limitation on the original makeshift staff.

Staff Nexus
Your thesis maintains that early and intense adoption of
staves from the first days of study can create a symbiotic
bond between spellcaster and staff, allowing them to
create remarkable magic together. You’ve formed such a
connection with a makeshift staff you built, and you are
ready to infuse any staff you encounter with greater power.
You begin play with a makeshift staff of your
own invention. It has the magical trait and contains
one cantrip and one 1st-rank spell, both from your
spellbook. During your daily preparations, you
can expend one spell to grant the staff a number
of charges equal to that spell’s rank, which
dissipate after 24 hours. While you are holding
the staff, you can Cast the Spells it contains. The
1st-rank spell consumes 1 charge but the cantrip
doesn’t require charges.
You can Craft your makeshift staff into any other
type of magical staff for the new staff’s usual cost,
adding the two spells you originally chose to the staff
you Craft. This staff gains charges from preparing it
along with expended spells. Magical staves are described
on page 278 of GM Core.
At 8th level, you can expend two spells instead of one
when preparing any staff, adding additional charges
equal to the combined ranks of the expended spells. At
16th level, you can expend up to a total of three spells to
add charges to the staff, adding additional charges


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I would lean towards preparing a makeshift staff not granting charges outside of expending a spell slot, same as it did in pre-remaster. If it worked the same as a regular staff in remaster, it wouldn't have to clarify that after it's crafted into a normal staff it gains charges from preparation.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Karys wrote:
I would lean towards preparing a makeshift staff not granting charges outside of expending a spell slot, same as it did in pre-remaster. If it worked the same as a regular staff in remaster, it wouldn't have to clarify that after it's crafted into a normal staff it gains charges from preparation.

It may just be like with a lot of things the designers making sure the new staff is understood to work the same as any staff.

They did not impose a restriction this time on the original makeshift staff so I would not impose one. Isn't that how this game works in every other area of the rules?
It is a staff so you follow the rules for preparing a staff, there is no entry telling you not to prepare it like a staff so you would not impose such a restriction. There is a rule allowing an additional step while preparing the makeshift staff so you allow that additional ability when preparing.


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Bluemagetim wrote:
The reason I am confident is because the remaster entry for staff nexus says on PC 196 unlike the CRB which states "but it gains no charges normally during your preparation" This statement is not found in the actual entry in the remaster book.

Ehhh... You can't have it both ways. If you want to ignore the CRB printing when interpreting the Player Core rules, that is fine. But you can't then turn around and say that the removal of that wording is significant.

From just the Player Core reading, what I notice is that the wording very carefully says that "During your daily preparations" you can spend a spell slot spell to gain charges. Not "When you prepare the staff".

The staff that gains charges when preparing it is the upgraded staff.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Finoan wrote:
Bluemagetim wrote:
The reason I am confident is because the remaster entry for staff nexus says on PC 196 unlike the CRB which states "but it gains no charges normally during your preparation" This statement is not found in the actual entry in the remaster book.

Ehhh... You can't have it both ways. If you want to ignore the CRB printing when interpreting the Player Core rules, that is fine. But you can't then turn around and say that the removal of that wording is significant.

From just the Player Core reading, what I notice is that the wording very carefully says that "During your daily preparations" you can spend a spell slot spell to gain charges. Not "When you prepare the staff".

The staff that gains charges when preparing it is the upgraded staff.

Its not the removal of it that i find significant, it is the absence of the imperative that it gave. Its not there to say you cant prepare as normal, so i will prepare as normal.

I would have to see something saying during your preparation you can only do x to impose a limitation. Otherwise i will assume I can prepare as normal and also do the additional effect.


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If the "makeshift staff" was supposed to work exactly as a regular staff, except that it only has one cantrip and one rank 1 spell in it, then all of the text in the thesis is unnecessary. It could just say "you begin with a special staff that contains 1 cantrip and 1 rank 1 spell. Until level 8, there is no difference between a staff nexus wizard and another wizard who has a magical staff except that the staff nexus wizard can have one additional spell and one additional cantrip in their staff.

The purpose of the text there is to let you know that you can still expend a slot to gain additional charges, even though you technically do not have a magical staff item, you have a "makeshift magical staff" which is a different custom item from other magical staves.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:

If the "makeshift staff" was supposed to work exactly as a regular staff, except that it only has one cantrip and one rank 1 spell in it, then all of the text in the thesis is unnecessary. It could just say "you begin with a special staff that contains 1 cantrip and 1 rank 1 spell. Until level 8, there is no difference between a staff nexus wizard and another wizard who has a magical staff except that the staff nexus wizard can have one additional spell and one additional cantrip in their staff.

The purpose of the text there is to let you know that you can still expend a slot to gain additional charges, even though you technically do not have a magical staff item, you have a "makeshift magical staff" which is a different custom item from other magical staves.

Ok this is a different angle. So you do not see the makeshift staff as an actual magical staff?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I read staff nexus as giving the wizard a magical staff of their own making. It is not different from other magical staves in how it is prepared based on what is written, the wizard with this nexus is different from other wizards.
The wizard can expend a spell slot during preparation to get extra charges. They can only do this for the makeshift staff until level 8 when the wizard improves.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If all the thesis did was give you a magical staff at level 1 that contained a rank one spell and a cantrip (that could later be added to a different staff you invested in) why not just say that, instead of awkwardly redescribing what a staff is, but with an obvious and glaring omission?

It makes a lot more sense to include the text that was included if the makeshift staff is not exactly the same as other staves.


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Bluemagetim wrote:
Finoan wrote:
Bluemagetim wrote:
The reason I am confident is because the remaster entry for staff nexus says on PC 196 unlike the CRB which states "but it gains no charges normally during your preparation" This statement is not found in the actual entry in the remaster book.

Ehhh... You can't have it both ways. If you want to ignore the CRB printing when interpreting the Player Core rules, that is fine. But you can't then turn around and say that the removal of that wording is significant.

From just the Player Core reading, what I notice is that the wording very carefully says that "During your daily preparations" you can spend a spell slot spell to gain charges. Not "When you prepare the staff".

The staff that gains charges when preparing it is the upgraded staff.

Its not the removal of it that i find significant, it is the absence of the imperative that it gave. Its not there to say you cant prepare as normal, so i will prepare as normal.

I would have to see something saying during your preparation you can only do x to impose a limitation. Otherwise i will assume I can prepare as normal and also do the additional effect.

What additional effect? There is no additional effect. All prepared casters can spend a spell slot to add charges to a staff during daily preparations. The Thesis only gets additional effects at 8th level (where you can spend more than 1 spell slot) and/or whenever you craft your makeshift staff into a magical staff.

And again, the fact that they mention "This staff gains charges from preparing it along with expended spells." clearly implies your makeshift staff doesn't work this way, or there would be no point in wasting word count reiterating this.

Specific trumps general, and the Thesis clearly explains how you can add charges to your makeshift staff: by spending spell slots.


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The important bit is this:

"You begin play with a makeshift staff of your
own invention. It has the magical trait and contains
one cantrip and one 1st-rank spell, both from your
spellbook."

It DOESN'T gain the Staff Trait. It only gains the Magical Trait.

So, it is by definition NOT a regular magical staff that follows the normal rules of magical staves, since according to GMC pg. 278 (where the Staves rules are):
"All magical staves have the staff trait."


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Believe me i am trying to re read and see it as you see it.
Isn't that applying a rule based on conjecture though?

"During your daily preparations, you
can expend one spell to grant the staff a number
of charges equal to that spell’s rank, which
dissipate after 24 hours."

This section defines when the wizard can use their ability to expend a slot to add extra charges to the staff (note this ability is not itself limited to the makeshift staff here, that is defined in another sentance because this ability eventually loses that restriction. It does not even address staff preparing or any limitations to doing this.

"This staff gains charges from preparing it
along with expended spells."

I agree that this being stated after introducing makes clear the newly crafted staff can do this. It does not actually address what the original makeshift staff can or cannot do though, it is conjecture to apply a restriction on the original staff based on the statement that this new staff can prepare as normal.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
shroudb wrote:

The important bit is this:

"You begin play with a makeshift staff of your
own invention. It has the magical trait and contains
one cantrip and one 1st-rank spell, both from your
spellbook."

It DOESN'T gain the Staff Trait. It only gains the Magical Trait.

So, it is by definition NOT a regular magical staff that follows the normal rules of magical staves, since according to GMC pg. 278 (where the Staves rules are):
"All magical staves have the staff trait."

Thank you shroudb. That actually is the clarifying point I missed.

It needed the staff trait to be a staff.
The item then is not in fact a staff.


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ninja'ed


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Very similar reasoning to other recent threads.

If something is not defined, then you can run it how you like.

But if it is defined and it very much doesn't have something there that you think should be there, you don't get to add it just because you want to.

Raise Shield doesn't have the manipulate trait. Cast a Spell from a scroll doesn't have the Visual or Linguistic traits. And the makeshift staff doesn't have the Staff trait.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Finoan wrote:

Very similar reasoning to other recent threads.

If something is not defined, then you can run it how you like.

But if it is defined and it very much doesn't have something there that you think should be there, you don't get to add it just because you want to.

Raise Shield doesn't have the manipulate trait. Cast a Spell from a scroll doesn't have the Visual or Linguistic traits. And the makeshift staff doesn't have the Staff trait.

I agree with that, I missed the fact that the staff trait is not given to the Makeshift staff and was trying to reconcile it as though it was considered a staff. I was mistaken.


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And to be fair, I hadn't noticed that detail either. Kudos to shroudb for noticing that one.

It would be much more clear if it actually said that the makeshift staff is not prepared like a normal staff. Losing that in Player Core is a detriment that makes the rules more confusing.

Liberty's Edge

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The lack of the Staff trait is, to me, the nail in the coffin on this subject and says everything that needs to be known. You'd need to wait to upgrade/swap it to a proper one later on to prepare it in any other fashion.


Themetricsystem wrote:
The lack of the Staff trait is, to me, the nail in the coffin on this subject and says everything that needs to be known. You'd need to wait to upgrade/swap it to a proper one later on to prepare it in any other fashion.

It's clearly just a normal staff in all respects, save for its acquisition and unique spells. Just because it doesn't mention the Staff trait doesn't mean that it doesn't have it. It's in the name. Literally. As others have said, why would the developers bother wasting words?

Spoiler:
All else aside, the game developers are rather fond of reminding us about rules with redundant text.


The Contrarian wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
The lack of the Staff trait is, to me, the nail in the coffin on this subject and says everything that needs to be known. You'd need to wait to upgrade/swap it to a proper one later on to prepare it in any other fashion.

I interpret it as a normal staff in all respects. Just because it doesn't mention the Staff trait doesn't mean that it doesn't have it. It's in the name. Literally. As others have said, why would the developers bother wasting the wording?

** spoiler omitted **

It is a "normal" staff. The way a quarterstaff is, or the way a wooden stick to help with walking is.

It just doesn't have the specific magical abilities that come alongside the Staff Trait.

Similarly as to how you manipulate a shield to Raise it but it doesn't come alongside the limitations of the Manipulate Trait.


Here's the Remaster text OCRed and checked in full:

Staff Nexus wrote:

Staff Nexus

Your thesis maintains that early and intense adoption of staves from the first days of study can create a symbiotic bond between spellcaster and staff, allowing them to create remarkable magic together. You’ve formed such a connection with a makeshift staff you built, and you are ready to infuse any staff you encounter with greater power.

You begin play with a makeshift staff of your own invention. It has the magical trait and contains one cantrip and one 1st-rank spell, both from your spellbook. During your daily preparations, you can expend one spell to grant the staff a number of charges equal to that spell’s rank, which dissipate after 24 hours. While you are holding the staff, you can Cast the Spells it contains. The 1st-rank spell consumes 1 charge but the cantrip doesn’t require charges.

You can Craft your makeshift staff into any other type of magical staff for the new staff’s usual cost, adding the two spells you originally chose to the staff you Craft. This staff gains charges from preparing it along with expended spells. Magical staves are described on page 278 of GM Core.

At 8th level, you can expend two spells instead of one when preparing any staff, adding additional charges equal to the combined ranks of the expended spells. At 16th level, you can expend up to a total of three spells to add charges to the staff, adding additional charges equal to the combined ranks of all three spells.

The order in which stuff gets mentioned does seem to matter here. Especially when the makeshift staff gets the magical trait called out, without adding the staff trait, I am currently in the

"makeshift is not a full staff with staff mechanics. The mechanics of the makeshift staff are only those defined in its text."

The mechanics of the Staff Nexus in regard to regular staves is only mentioned after the makeshift upgrade into a "real" one, not before.

IMO, from "writer's intent" ass-pulling, I think that if the makeshift was intended to have full staff mechanics, it would be described and named differently. Such as a "minor staff" or a "personal staff." Describing it as makeshift implies an inability, a lack that distinguishes and separates it from the default far more than something like "temporary staff" would.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Trip.H wrote:

The order in which stuff gets mentioned does seem to matter here. Especially when the makeshift staff gets the magical trait called out, without adding the staff trait, I am currently in the

"makeshift is not a full staff with staff mechanics. The mechanics of the makeshift staff are only those defined in its text."

The mechanics of the Staff Nexus in regard to regular staves is only mentioned after the makeshift upgrade into a "real" one, not before.

IMO, from "writer's intent" ass-pulling, I think that if the makeshift was intended to have full staff mechanics, it would be described and named differently. Such as a "minor staff" or a "personal staff." Describing it as makeshift implies an inability, a lack that distinguishes and separates it from the default far more than something like "temporary staff" would.

Well, I'm convinced. (cheerful agreement)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Its clear that without the staff trait it cant use staff rules.
I still find this decision oddly limiting for the thesis.

It sells itself as early and intense adoption of staves and well the wizard making the staff is just bad at it. What they net is an extra cantrip slot. thats only ok, not great. There is no reason to use the mechanic to expend a slot at early levels, that actually limits you because if you are separated from your staff you are also separated from that spell slot you put in the staff for a charge. The spell in the staff is also one you could have just cast normally.

What this thesis does at later levels is fine but the thesis description doesn't IMO fit a later game benefit and an almost early game wash in terms of benefit.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Well, it does give the staff nexus wizard a way to be unrestricted from their school slot at level one. So you get an extra cantrip and the ability to pick any spell you want to take up that slot. Spell blending costs you a first level slot to gain 2 cantrips or it does nothing at all at level 1.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:
Well, it does give the staff nexus wizard a way to be unrestricted from their school slot at level one. So you get an extra cantrip and the ability to pick any spell you want to take up that slot. Spell blending costs you a first level slot to gain 2 cantrips or it does nothing at all at level 1.

I didn't think of that. So thats kind of nice if you dont like the school slotted spells but picked the school for the focus spells or for flavor or something.

I think the spell blending as the thesis that gives you the most at level spells to cast of any wizard at later levels provides such an unbalanced later game benefit that it deserves to not have an early game one.
Staff nexus is kind of the reverse of it which can have situations where it can be helpful but not as overall powerful. I think the early benefits help balance that difference.


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it also lets you add your favorite 1st level spell to any staff you want.

Later on, this is of less importance, since 1st level spells do kinda fall off, but later levels you get other benefits either way. Early on, that 1st level spells aren't completely wash, that's still a tangible benefit.

Early staves like Mentalist's or Fire, getting an additional spell, of your choosing and regardless of how that spell messes up with the theme of the staff, is actually a decent upside.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
shroudb wrote:

it also lets you add your favorite 1st level spell to any staff you want.

Later on, this is of less importance, since 1st level spells do kinda fall off, but later levels you get other benefits either way. Early on, that 1st level spells aren't completely wash, that's still a tangible benefit.

Early staves like Mentalist's or Fire, getting an additional spell, of your choosing and regardless of how that spell messes up with the theme of the staff, is actually a decent upside.

Ok I think I'm missing something then.

At level 1 and 2 couldn't you just not expend the slot and have that same spell prepared with that slot? Isnt the makeshift staff providing literally a lateral change with the downside of requiring the staff in your hand to use the spell?
Or do you mean the tangible benefit comes on line at level 3 and up?


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The only real value at level 1 and 2 for the rank 1 spell, is having a way to use your school slot for one additional spell. The cantrip is a decent benefit though, so even at level 1 it is doing something for you.

If you rush to get an early staff, then the extra spell becomes pretty useful to you by level 3 to 5, especially if you are putting a rank 2 slot (maybe still your school spell if you don't love your options) into your staff, because then you have 2 spells to choose from instead of just one to spend your charges on. (Those low level staves are pretty limited).

The thesis really starts getting valuable at level 8, because you can expend lower level slots together to get enough charges to cast higher level spells or just have more of the flexible casting versatility that many people feel the wizard lacks. These boards have many proponents of the staff nexus thesis wizard, saying that it is as strong as the spell blending thesis because you get more flexibility with charges than you do with static spell slots.

Personally, I still struggle with taking any thesis other than spell substitution on any wizard I play because I love changing up what spells I have prepared with every 10 minute rest, and being able to reuse fun utility tricks multiple times in the same dungeon without having to go buy more scrolls, instead just buying 1 of most scrolls except for some combat options that I will use almost every encounter.

But the staff nexus thesis is kind of a balance between the spell blending thesis (which takes a long time to get rolling) and the other theses that are more front loaded as options, in that you get some benefit right from level 1, some additional benefit at level 3 if you can get your first permanent staff, and then a big boost at level 8.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Unicore wrote:

The only real value at level 1 and 2 for the rank 1 spell, is having a way to use your school slot for one additional spell. The cantrip is a decent benefit though, so even at level 1 it is doing something for you.

If you rush to get an early staff, then the extra spell becomes pretty useful to you by level 3 to 5, especially if you are putting a rank 2 slot (maybe still your school spell if you don't love your options) into your staff, because then you have 2 spells to choose from instead of just one to spend your charges on. (Those low level staves are pretty limited).

The thesis really starts getting valuable at level 8, because you can expend lower level slots together to get enough charges to cast higher level spells or just have more of the flexible casting versatility that many people feel the wizard lacks. These boards have many proponents of the staff nexus thesis wizard, saying that it is as strong as the spell blending thesis because you get more flexibility with charges than you do with static spell slots.

Personally, I still struggle with taking any thesis other than spell substitution on any wizard I play because I love changing up what spells I have prepared with every 10 minute rest, and being able to reuse fun utility tricks multiple times in the same dungeon without having to go buy more scrolls, instead just buying 1 of most scrolls except for some combat options that I will use almost every encounter.

But the staff nexus thesis is kind of a balance between the spell blending thesis (which takes a long time to get rolling) and the other theses that are more front loaded as options, in that you get some benefit right from level 1, some additional benefit at level 3 if you can get your first permanent staff, and then a big boost at level 8.

Thank you Unicore. That explanation helps.


Bluemagetim wrote:
shroudb wrote:

it also lets you add your favorite 1st level spell to any staff you want.

Later on, this is of less importance, since 1st level spells do kinda fall off, but later levels you get other benefits either way. Early on, that 1st level spells aren't completely wash, that's still a tangible benefit.

Early staves like Mentalist's or Fire, getting an additional spell, of your choosing and regardless of how that spell messes up with the theme of the staff, is actually a decent upside.

Ok I think I'm missing something then.

At level 1 and 2 couldn't you just not expend the slot and have that same spell prepared with that slot? Isnt the makeshift staff providing literally a lateral change with the downside of requiring the staff in your hand to use the spell?
Or do you mean the tangible benefit comes on line at level 3 and up?

I meant when you upgrade on a level 3 or 4 staff for "early on". Even without putting a spell there, you will be having 2-3 charges at those levels, and instead of having (usually) only 1 option to spend those charges, you will be having 2.

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If I was a new player, coming to the game with a fresh reading of remaster-only rules, I would not come away from reading Staff Nexus with the idea that the Makeshift staff did not gain charges like a regular staff.

I would, has directed in the ability, look at page 278 of the GM Core to understand how regular staffs operate vs the Makeshift one.

The Makeshift does differ from normal staves, and the ways in which it differs are laid out in the text of Staff Nexus.

So, what are we to make of this?

The removal of the charges verbage from the ability post-remaster could easily be an oversight. With the intention being that the lack of the staff trait means it does not function as an normal staff, save for the exceptions in the ability itself.

Worth noting however, is that the staff trait does not grant any special function or ability that is not references in Remastered Staff Nexus' text.

Staff Trait wrote:
This magic item holds spells of a particular theme and allows a spellcaster to cast additional spells by preparing the staff.

Staff Nexus talks about casting spells from the Makeshift staff and the process of preparing it. So the lack of the staff trait doesn't actual mean anything in the context of the Makeshift staff.

There is a case strong case for the negative reading however, in the below:

Remastered Staff Nexus wrote:


You can Craft your makeshift staff into any other type of magical staff for the new staff’s usual cost, adding the two spells you originally chose to the staff you Craft. This staff gains charges from preparing it along with expended spells. Magical staves are described
on page 278 of GM Core

This creates the idea that there is a divergence in how the Makeshift staff gains charges from how it works when upgraded.

So its a bit of a mess.

________

Does the remastered Staff Nexus intentionally allow for charges to be gain like any other staff?

No, Probably not.

If I was new the game, or seeing Remastered Staff Nexus for the first time, would I have any reason to think it DIDN'T gain charges like a regular staff?

No, Probably not.

Staff Nexus needed to keep it clear language regarding staff functioning for this exact reason, and it should never have been removed.

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