Wondering if the Bonus is worth the Drawback.
The bonus to rolls is +3, the bonus to Speed is +15 feet, and the duration is 1 hour.
Drawback You take damage equal to twice your level; you can't recover Hit Points lost in this way by any means while the mutagen lasts. You take a –2 penalty to Fortitude saves
Anyone use this elixir before and what are your thoughts on it?
As with all mutagens, it provides a +1 bonus over what permanent items would grant at its level. +1 is a good thing in PF2. The drawbacks mean you should only use it on a ranged character and it becomes more effective if your ranged attacks aren't using max item bonus already. So things like lower level bombs or thrown weapons (without throwers bandolier) benefit the most from it.
As an Alchemist, I was hooked on my Quicksilver and used it for nearly every fight.
Recently, I've slowed and might stop using them completely.
The lower HP sucks, but it's really the -2 to Fort that is lethal.
In general, this is because fail/crit failing one save is MUCH worse than missing an attack. And a BIG problem with Fort saves is that they are the most universal. Every monster w/ a Grapple can trigger them against you.
Honestly, if I'm going to use a buff besides Numbing Tonic, I think I might pick Cheetah's Elixir instead, as the move spd of the Quicksilver is what really makes it "good" IMO. Not just the universal +1, but the ability to occasionally save or force an action burn due to having greater move spd is a big boon.
Wondering if the Bonus is worth the Drawback.
In general terms no.
This is one of my biggest problems with Alchemists, many of the mutagens have major draw backs that make them really niche. So little benefit for so much cost.
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It strongly depends on your chassis. So, I have one character with access to Greater Quicksilver right now, my L11 Bomber.
Let's look at the Drawbacks: with Quicksilver, there are two.
The first is that you take 2*Your Level in damage every time you take a dose. This isn't really as bad as it appears on first glance... for a Bomber.
A Bomber is a Ranged Striker. Being turned into a 6 HP/Level Class by Quicksilver is fairly minor. Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards all survive being a 6 HP/Level class because they're Ranged. So can you.
Then there is the -2 to Fortitude Saves. Again, for my L11 Bomber... not a big deal. His Fortitude Saves go from Master to Expert. While annoying, there are a lot of classes that only get Expert in Fortitude Saves... 11.5 to be exact. And somehow, they survive. They do this without the benefit of the Juggernaut level of success bump, which my Bomber has. (Well, the Remastered Rogue has the level of success bump now for some reason with Expert Saves. Weird.)
In exchange, he is +2 ahead of Resiliency Runes until he hits 14th for Reflex Saves. He's +1 ahead on Acrobatics and Stealth (the bonus applies to Thievery, but he isn't trained in Thievery.) He has a +15' Status Bonus to Speed, which on a Fleet Halfling is sweet. (Love having a 45' Movement rate.)
And oh yeah, having a +3 Item Bonus to Strikes with my beloved Perpetual Sticky Bombs instead of +0/+1 or +2 (which I'd get only if I shelled out for Greater Alchemist's Goggles.)
So, if you are a Ranged Striker with at least 8 HP/level normally and Master in Fortitude Saves, I can heartily recommend Greater Quicksilver. If your chassis doesn't meet those conditions, you may wish to apply caution.
I'm not saying you can't make a use case for it, but a wand of longstrider and a bless spell is similar value for no downsides.
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Wand of Longstrider isn't too bad, although finding room to buy Trick Magic Item in my build isn't happening. Doesn't change the fact that I'm currently 5' faster on Quicksilver, and will be 10' faster with Major.
Bless? Do you think I want to be spending 3 actions at the start of a combat to cast Bless? I'd much rather take advantage of the higher Item Bonus and leave stuff like Bless to Spellcasters that do it better.
And you haven't addressed the Skills. While my guy is only Trained in Acrobatics, the bonus has still come in handy on several occasions. Stealth... He's a Stealth Master. Stealth has been great, and nothing helps Stealth as much as Quicksilver.
A big thing is this: since hitting 11th, I can have all the benefits of Quicksilver all day if I want (and I usually do.) It's at the point where it's a 0 action buff, because I simply drink one an hour. It's really easy to justify to the GM.
So I have 6 HP/level: shrug. I have Expert Fortitude saves like 11.5 other Classes (but I still have the save degree bump.) And I have a lot of great benefits that are basically always there. I really like Greater Quicksilver.
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If the enemy mostly ignores you absolutely. If it as much as looks at you a bit too harshly you are going to die.
Kinda of funny that the warblood mutagen has basically no drawback for a similar bonus
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If the enemy mostly ignores you absolutely. If it as much as looks at you a bit too harshly you are going to die.
Kinda of funny that the warblood mutagen has basically no drawback for a similar bonus
You're kidding me, right? I have the same Fort Saves as 11.5 other classes, and I have the Fort Save degree bump from Juggernaut. Are they dead if they're looked at funny? Gee, that cuts out a lot of classes from play. Too bad, guess nobody's going to have fun with those.
I take it you have a really, really low opinion of Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards? I take it they're dead if they're looked at funny? Odd, I play a L15 Wizard... he hasn't died yet, despite his fair share of Severe+ Encounters. I wonder how that is? Obviously, he should be dead by now.
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If the enemy mostly ignores you absolutely. If it as much as looks at you a bit too harshly you are going to die.
Kinda of funny that the warblood mutagen has basically no drawback for a similar bonusYou're kidding me, right? I have the same Fort Saves as 11.5 other classes, and I have the Fort Save degree bump from Juggernaut. Are they dead if they're looked at funny? Gee, that cuts out a lot of classes from play. Too bad, guess nobody's going to have fun with those.
I take it you have a really, really low opinion of Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards? I take it they're dead if they're looked at funny? Odd, I play a L15 Wizard... he hasn't died yet, despite his fair share of Severe+ Encounters. I wonder how that is? Obviously, he should be dead by now.
There's no need to get hyperbolic and put words into someone's mouth.
Bombs have a 20 ft range increment. That's essentially always one Stride away from being in melee range. And its shorter than most spells.
Casters get to be crazy flexible in ways that Alchemists are not. Alchemists don't get to slot in Reaction spells or other defensive options to adapt their survival odds to the campaign.
If an Alchemist is using items on allies, that's melee range, and if you're bombing, that's still one Stride from getting grabbed and invoking that -2 Fort.
Considering that mutagens cost actions and resources, the downsides are frankly ridiculously out of proportion. Taking penalties to get +1 to hit on a class that already lags behind in accuracy is seriously no bueno.
Quicksilver is basically a painful tax for Alchs to get closer to Strike par, it's not a real bonus. IMO, if the mutagen did not exist, there's a real chance Alchemist would have already had its accuracy improved in an errata.
I personally am shifting toward a Numb Medic tank/debuffer playstyle. Every Strike I eat is one less that the Rogue has to worry about, and I don't need to spend actions moving around the field if I'm healing myself. I still try to send out a Strike of my own each round, but I don't often get to be optimal.
The thing is I'm unsure if atalius is playing an alchemist, which if you aren't its isn't the best trade off unless you have a lot of other status bonuses because its kind of expensive. Getting a level 1 wand of longstrider and 6 scrolls of heroism is cheaper than one greater quicksilver.Wand of Longstrider isn't too bad, although finding room to buy Trick Magic Item in my build isn't happening. Doesn't change the fact that I'm currently 5' faster on Quicksilver, and will be 10' faster with Major.
Bless? Do you think I want to be spending 3 actions at the start of a combat to cast Bless? I'd much rather take advantage of the higher Item Bonus and leave stuff like Bless to Spellcasters that do it better.
And you haven't addressed the Skills. While my guy is only Trained in Acrobatics, the bonus has still come in handy on several occasions. Stealth... He's a Stealth Master. Stealth has been great, and nothing helps Stealth as much as Quicksilver.
A big thing is this: since hitting 11th, I can have all the benefits of Quicksilver all day if I want (and I usually do.) It's at the point where it's a 0 action buff, because I simply drink one an hour. It's really easy to justify to the GM.
So I have 6 HP/level: shrug. I have Expert Fortitude saves like 11.5 other Classes (but I still have the save degree bump.) And I have a lot of great benefits that are basically always there. I really like Greater Quicksilver.
I'm playing a Warpriest in this campaign.
I'm playing a Warpriest in this campaign.
Hmnnn. It's not great on Warpriest, but it's not the worst fit either. Warpriest does get 5th Doctrine after all... but it comes in 4 levels later than the Alchemist gets Juggernaut. You have the 8 HP per Level chassis, so that's good.
I have to wonder though... what are you planning to do with the Quicksilver? I played a Warpriest through 20th level in Extinction Curse, and IMHO there isn't a lot in the Class that encourages a Dex based combat style. There definitely isn't anything in there to encourage a Ranged Striker style, and going Melee while using Quicksilver isn't the best idea for most Classes. A Dex based fighter could pull it off, particularly if they used a shield. (My Mutagenist does quite well in Melee with a shield, and Quicksilver doesn't have the AC penalty that Bestial Mutagen does.)
Final question is how you plan to get access. If your party has an Alchemist who has reagents to spare (not uncommon at L11+) then no further questions needed. Otherwise, well, Greater Quicksilver runs 300gp a piece.
There's no need to get hyperbolic and put words into someone's mouth.
If the enemy mostly ignores you absolutely. If it as much as looks at you a bit too harshly you are going to die.
Given the hyperbole in the original statement, I am simply responding in kind.
Bombs have a 20 ft range increment. That's essentially always one Stride away from being in melee range. And its shorter than most spells.
Bombs have a 20' Range Increment if you let them. There's a reason why I prioritize Far Lobber over Quick Bomber, always. More range is good. 30' is a good place to be. 60' (Uncanny Bombs, L12) is even better.
Casters get to be crazy flexible in ways that Alchemists are not. Alchemists don't get to slot in Reaction spells or other defensive options to adapt their survival odds to the campaign.
While you are correct in the lack of Reactions (an area the Class is absolutely lacking in), Alchemists still have a decent amount of flexibility when it comes to defenses. If you're going dragon hunting, for example, I strongly recommend Bravo's Brews. Being +2 ahead of the curve on Fear (for many levels) is a good strategy.
If an Alchemist is using items on allies, that's melee range, and if you're bombing, that's still one Stride from getting grabbed and invoking that -2 Fort.
Firstly, using your items on allies who are in melee is not a use case for Quicksilver. If you're planning on rushing over to folks and feeding them Elixirs, pick another strategy. First off, don't go Bomber... you're just going to frustrate yourself. Go Mutagenist or Chirurgeon and use Fury Cocktail for some damage resistance and Cheetah's Elixirs for some speed. Or, if you don't care about combat effectiveness at all, go Choker-Arm Mutagen. Doesn't impact your defenses and you can deliver stuff from 10-20' away depending on tier.
And to reiterate, you don't have to be stuck with a 20' Bomb range if you don't want to. Plus, if you need more Range, eat the -2 penalty and keep yourself safer. At least it doesn't take an Action like Reach Spell does.
Considering that mutagens cost actions and resources, the downsides are frankly ridiculously out of proportion. Taking penalties to get +1 to hit on a class that already lags behind in accuracy is seriously no bueno.
I find it interesting that even other people who play Alchemists routinely disregard the other five benefits of Quicksilver and focus entirely on the Item Bonus to Dex based Strikes & the Drawbacks.
There is a lot there to take advantage of, should you take the trouble to do so. I use every benefit with the exception of Thievery on my L11 guy. My L7 Bomber has made good use of all of them.
Quicksilver is basically a painful tax for Alchs to get closer to Strike par, it's not a real bonus. IMO, if the mutagen did not exist, there's a real chance Alchemist would have already had its accuracy improved in an errata.
shrug Maybe. I have no idea. But "if the mutagen did not exist" is the realm of pure speculation. The mutagens (all of them) exist. I will put 2,000 quatloos that when Player Core 2 comes out they'll all be in there, and be largely unchanged. Paizo has put a large premium on compatibility between pre-Remaster and Remaster. I sincerely doubt that will change with Alchemists and Alchemy. Besides, Treasure Vault is still out there, and I doubt they're going to have the page count to rework all of those items.
I personally am shifting toward a Numb Medic tank/debuffer playstyle. Every Strike I eat is one less that the Rogue has to worry about, and I don't need to spend actions moving around the field if I'm healing myself. I still try to send out a Strike of my own each round, but I don't often get to be optimal.
Cool, glad to hear you're finding something that works for you. Between Numbing Tonic, Soothing Tonic & Mistform Elixirs an Alchemist can be ridiculously hard to put down. I've been having fun with that on my L9 Mutagenist.