Ritunn |
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Hello there!
I've been working on a comprehensive guide to familiars over the past couple of days, doing my best to offer ratings and advice regarding their usage, with the new additions and changes in the PC1. Hopefully, you find it useful. If you have any suggestions for changes, I'd love to hear it! Thanks a ton.
Bongo BigBounce |
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Thank you for your specific call outs for different types of witches. I've just begun playing Kingmaker with a Resentment witch whose background has draconic symbiology, and I found the info about the Fairie dragon's breath weapon enlightening. I do find the Dragon Trait disappointing as well. It could have included a limited use breath weapon or senses, or something!
As for the Wand of Pampered Pet *sigh* Take My Money!
Ritunn |
Thank you for your specific call outs for different types of witches. I've just begun playing Kingmaker with a Resentment witch whose background has draconic symbiology, and I found the info about the Fairie dragon's breath weapon enlightening. I do find the Dragon Trait disappointing as well. It could have included a limited use breath weapon or senses, or something!
As for the Wand of Pampered Pet *sigh* Take My Money!
I'm glad you enjoyed it! The faerie dragon is the familiar I've got the most experience with, since I used it with my fencer swashbuckler my first time playing in a campaign rather than running one, so I'm glad you found what I said enlightening. I do very much agree with your feelings on the dragon ability, however. It'd probably be in the same tier as plant and fungus if dragons weren't at least a little cooler.
Ritunn |
For the item section, the new Focused item for witches (forget the name) allows you to cut a tiny piece off it and make it into a bow/collar/whatever for your familiar, granting it the Tough ability for free as long as the familiar wears it.
Ah, the Crown of Witchcraft! I entirely forgot about that last bit truthfully. I'll need to add it into the items section then, along with the Librarian Staff I forgot about too. Thanks for mentioning it!
Ritunn |
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Crown of Witchcraft and Librarian Staff now have ratings! Additionally, I have added 1-5 stars as an additional way to show ratings to help with anyone who may be colour blind. I appreciate all the feedback so far! Going to take a break for Christmas, but I want to add in some basic familiar and PC builds when I got time.
shroudb |
A note on some of the ratings:
At points you have Elemental Mobility as green, while you have at other points Flier as Blue.
This makes no sense to me, since Flier is one of the options of the elemental mobility to begin with.
(I understand the red when a familiar already has flier, but when it doesn't, like the Gennayn, it shouldn't be less than blue if Flier is rated blue to begin with)
I'd also rate Speech as blue. Especially if you want your familiar to do any reasonable scouting, or have a lot of options with Skilled, but that's more of a personal opinion.
Red Griffyn |
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One thing I might change is bumping partner in crime to blue. Deception and thievery come up both in and out of combat. Combining it with Independent allows for all kinds of build assists and keeps many classes competitive when they aren't CHA key stat builds. For example, the L6 convincing illusion feat from the wizard class is amazing for lockdown/battlefield control (Illusory object for example). Your familiar can help augment the deception check needed to basically force an enemy to keep believing your illusion. Its also one of the very few ways to get circumstance bonuses to these skills.
Ritunn |
A note on some of the ratings:
At points you have Elemental Mobility as green, while you have at other points Flier as Blue.
This makes no sense to me, since Flier is one of the options of the elemental mobility to begin with.
(I understand the red when a familiar already has flier, but when it doesn't, like the Gennayn, it shouldn't be less than blue if Flier is rated blue to begin with)
I'd also rate Speech as blue. Especially if you want your familiar to do any reasonable scouting, or have a lot of options with Skilled, but that's more of a personal opinion.
I have Elememtal Mobility rated as green currently, as its effectiveness depends entirely upon what element you've picked. Flier is the best option of course, but you won't always have Flier with it. Speech is certainly good to have depending on your build, but I don't see it as essential either. Thank you for the considerations, however! I'm going to look into a way to make Elemental Mobility have a rating to represent its variable nature.
Ritunn |
One thing I might change is bumping partner in crime to blue. Deception and thievery come up both in and out of combat. Combining it with Independent allows for all kinds of build assists and keeps many classes competitive when they aren't CHA key stat builds. For example, the L6 convincing illusion feat from the wizard class is amazing for lockdown/battlefield control (Illusory object for example). Your familiar can help augment the deception check needed to basically force an enemy to keep believing your illusion. Its also one of the very few ways to get circumstance bonuses to these skills.
You mention some synergies I hadn't considered. I'll consider upping the rating, but I am going to at least include the synergies you mentioned as I believe they're important to note. Thank you for bringing them to my attention!
Ritunn |
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At last, a very strange but effective corgi mount sprite fighter build has been added based around the whip weapon! This is in addition to an equally weird star orb kitsune fey sorcerer build I'm quite proud of that makes use of the rarely used Ancestral Blood Magic and Ancestral Mage feats. Do enjoy! If you have any suggestions for other builds, I'd be glad to throw them together and add them to the guide if I'm interested in it.
Ritunn |
Thanks for this guide. It is well done. I'm still not hugely impressed with familiars but they are a useful option now.
Thank you! I really appreciate it. I don't think familiars are for everyone, but they certainly can be useful if you know what to do with them. Figuring that out just takes a lot of trial and error I find just based on what your GM may do when one is in the game!
Captain Morgan |
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"After one week, you can replace it at no cost" is misleading. The pre-remaster* rules state: "you can spend a week of downtime to replace it at no cost." Your text reads like you just get a new familiar after a week regardless of your activity. It takes a week of not adventuring, earning income, or retraining to do so.
*I don't think this was changed in the remaster.
Ritunn |
Should call out that there's no real requirement to pick up a sustained hex for Familiar of Balanced Luck since you can just keep casting Nudge Fate every turn. Remaster removed the immunity clause from it.
That it did! But it does end if you cast it again, so it can feel a little silly casting it over and over again for no benefit other than the familiar effect. Thus it can be beneficial to take a lesson for a sustained hex, but I can rework the wording to make this more apparent.
Ritunn |
"After one week, you can replace it at no cost" is misleading. The pre-remaster* rules state: "you can spend a week of downtime to replace it at no cost." Your text reads like you just get a new familiar after a week regardless of your activity. It takes a week of not adventuring, earning income, or retraining to do so.
*I don't think this was changed in the remaster.
It's indeed the same in the remaster! I'll clarify that as it is indeed misleading. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
Ritunn |
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Added a druid and kineticist build to the guide and added some extra art to enjoy as folks take a read through. Currently intend to put together a build for alchemist, magus, and thaum for the guide to have one for every class listed in there, and then throw together a build for Scion of Domora due to its unique nature. Hope folks enjoy the additions otherwise, and if you got some themes or concepts for the classes I still need to do, feel free to throw them at me!
Ritunn |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Been a bit, but I took some time to make some revisions for flow, grammar, and spelling! Additionally, I've added in a Thaumaturge build example making use of the poppet specific familiar. Currently working on a Scion of Domora build, and that should be added in the coming weeks. I'm expecting to have some new stuff to add in once my copy of Howl of the Wild comes in (but who knows?) and I'll be updating accordingly as soon as possible if needed!
Trip.H |
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Guides like this are always quite helpful, and much appreciated.
The placement/discussion of Lab Assistant does make me think that I am missing something about that ability.
If I had to guess via the context clues, is the idea/reading that when the familiar performs Quick Alchemy, the item is in the Alchemist's hand? Not the familiar's?
Especially when paired with Independent, that would certainly merit a 4 star recommendation...
Captain Morgan |
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I forgot to check this guide when building my most recent witch, but it made me feel better about taking a shadow familiar for Starless Shadow. At level 4 it eats all of my abilities and lacking independent sucks.
For the wilding abilities, it might be worth mentioning that while it is the worst patron combat ability it is a pretty nice scouting tool.
Ritunn |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Guides like this are always quite helpful, and much appreciated.
The placement/discussion of Lab Assistant does make me think that I am missing something about that ability.
If I had to guess via the context clues, is the idea/reading that when the familiar performs Quick Alchemy, the item is in the Alchemist's hand? Not the familiar's?
Especially when paired with Independent, that would certainly merit a 4 star recommendation...
You make a fair point, that certainly passed by my mind when doing the write-up and it does end up in the familiar's. It does still have the advantage of being able to do quick alchemy and administering it, or simply doing it twice for the price of 1-action, so I value it plenty, however. I should mention that it will be in your familiar's hands though, as that is an important point.
I forgot to check this guide when building my most recent witch, but it made me feel better about taking a shadow familiar for Starless Shadow. At level 4 it eats all of my abilities and lacking independent sucks.
For the wilding abilities, it might be worth mentioning that while it is the worst patron combat ability it is a pretty nice scouting tool.
Once you're able to get back Independent, it will be a really good time, I assure you on that! But, I do hope you enjoy playing witch, it's a fun time, especially when you get flavor like that. You do raise a good point on Wilding Steward though and I have added that as an advantage accordingly.
Trip.H |
You make a fair point, that certainly passed by my mind when doing the write-up and it does end up in the familiar's. It does still have the advantage of being able to do quick alchemy and administering it, or simply doing it twice for the price of 1-action, so I value it plenty, however. I should mention that it will be in your familiar's hands though, as that is an important point.
If it is in the familiar's hands, then Lab Assistant is nearly worthless. Familiars can do manipulates via Manual Dex, but they cannot Activate items. As soon as the familiar needs a filler action to hand off the item for use, there is little reason not to just do it yourself. Not only would you need a Feat to make the Q-Alch item last another round, but it's not clear that it would apply to the familiar's Q-Alch.
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That said, I think the idea of the item being in the Alch's hand is actually correct.
Literally a single word is sticking rather significantly when reading Lab Assistant and trying to answer that question.
It can use your Quick Alchemy action. You must have Quick Alchemy, and your familiar must be in your space. This has the same cost and requirement as if you used it. It must have the manual dexterity ability to select this.
The familiar is not doing Quick Alchemy. The familiar is using its action to do *your* Quick Alchemy. This also rings harmonious with the mandatory condition of sharing space w/ your familiar. The little guy is shaping the reagent quintessences to form an item in your open hand.
And it also follows the trend of sloppy Alchemist band-aids that always miss the forest for the trees (Quick Alchemy itself sucks / is not optimal. But hey, infinite Skunks are so OP everything is fine, right? Right?).
I think it is RaW and RaI that the Lab Assistant item lands in the Alchemist's hand.
While Paizo might have forgotten that Alchemist does not get default access to 4 familiar abilities, the 3 combo of Manual Dex, Lab Assistant, and Independent would enable the Quick Alchemy-made items to loose the Action tax that is half of Q-Alch's problem.
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Looks like perpetual Skunks are even *more* overpowered. Ugh. Not just a little bit either. A full 2A to 1A reduction for any turn that did not require the familiar's action.
shroudb |
Ritunn wrote:
You make a fair point, that certainly passed by my mind when doing the write-up and it does end up in the familiar's. It does still have the advantage of being able to do quick alchemy and administering it, or simply doing it twice for the price of 1-action, so I value it plenty, however. I should mention that it will be in your familiar's hands though, as that is an important point.If it is in the familiar's hands, then Lab Assistant is nearly worthless. Familiars can do manipulates via Manual Dex, but they cannot Activate items. As soon as the familiar needs a filler action to hand off the item for use, there is little reason not to just do it yourself. Not only would you need a Feat to make the Q-Alch item last another round, but it's not clear that it would apply to the familiar's Q-Alch.
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That said, I think the idea of the item being in the Alch's hand is actually correct.
Literally a single word is sticking rather significantly when reading Lab Assistant and trying to answer that question.
Lab Assistant wrote:It can use your Quick Alchemy action. You must have Quick Alchemy, and your familiar must be in your space. This has the same cost and requirement as if you used it. It must have the manual dexterity ability to select this.The familiar is not doing Quick Alchemy. The familiar is using its action to do *your* Quick Alchemy. This also rings harmonious with the mandatory condition of sharing space w/ your familiar. The little guy is shaping the reagent quintessences to form an item in your open hand.
And it also follows the trend of sloppy Alchemist band-aids that always miss the forest for the trees (Quick Alchemy itself sucks / is not optimal. But hey, infinite Skunks are so OP everything is fine, right? Right?).
I think it is RaW and RaI that the Lab Assistant item lands in the Alchemist's hand.
While Paizo might have forgotten that Alchemist does not get default access to 4...
You bolded the wrong words:
IT can USE your action.
The familiar is using your action, so the results of the action ends up in its hands.
But as written it's no different than saying "the rogue can use your mesh kit to make food" it doesn't somehow magically make the food appear in your hands, even though he has does indeed uses your mesh kit.
Trip.H |
You bolded the wrong words:
IT can USE your action.
The familiar is using your action, so the results of the action ends up in its hands.
But as written it's no different than saying "the rogue can use your mesh kit to make food" it doesn't somehow magically make the food appear in your hands, even though he has does indeed uses your mesh kit.
I think a better comparison point would be between:
"the familiar is able to use the Steal action"
versus
"the familiar is able to use your Steal action"
Part of the action is creating an item, and it needs to go somewhere. That phrasing is very clever and informative.
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It's not even a little ambiguous. The abnormal and unneeded "your Quick Alchemy" means you evoke the normal functions of your Quick Alchemy. Both the cost and result happen as if you had used your Quick Alchemy. Including where the item ends up. This is also why it's clearly compatible with Perpetuals, as it's removing any ambiguity about the familiar being a separate lil Alchemist with their own Q-Alch.
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and IMO, going with your reading ought to trigger a too bad to be true review.
Q-Alch items disappear the next turn.
If the Lab Assistant left the item in the familiar's hands, the ability would be virtually worthless.
If there is a need to spend an Action somewhere to get the item usable, it literally cannot be Action saver. One *theoretical* niche, putting the familiar on a party member's shoulder for long-range Alch delivery via Command, is disabled by the must share your space condition.
Valet would be net 0, as would any use of the PC's Command. The only way it could ever save an Action is if you took a special Feat to extend the duration of Q-Alch items a single turn, made the item via Independent, waited a round, then got a free handoff that second round via Independent.
That's beyond horrible. Dare I say, that reading of Lab Assistant is so bad, it's too bad to be true.
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Meanwhile, and especially if Players / GMs stopped being squeamish about attacking familiars that participate in combat, "item to the Alch's hand" Lab Assistant needs to be used in a 3-ability chain to really standout as good (and again, doing Q-Alch at all is usually sub par. It's Treasure Vault's Sickening Skunks that busted that norm).
QuidEst |
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Just wanted to chime in with a ratfolk familiar trick. Uncanny Cheeks gives you Prescient Planner and Prescient Consumable for negligible bulk (unless you have Cheek Pouches). At tenth level, one level after you get Uncanny Cheeks, that means you can pull out whatever Familiar Morsel you need at the moment. (Anyone else can spend two general feats for the same, but one ancestry feat is a lot cheaper. Sadly, Thaumaturge lost this trick after playtest.)
shroudb |
shroudb wrote:You bolded the wrong words:
IT can USE your action.
The familiar is using your action, so the results of the action ends up in its hands.
But as written it's no different than saying "the rogue can use your mesh kit to make food" it doesn't somehow magically make the food appear in your hands, even though he has does indeed uses your mesh kit.
I think a better comparison point would be between:
"the familiar is able to use the Steal action"
versus
"the familiar is able to use your Steal action"
Part of the action is creating an item, and it needs to go somewhere. That phrasing is very clever and informative.
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It's not even a little ambiguous. The abnormal and unneeded "your Quick Alchemy" means you evoke the normal functions of your Quick Alchemy. Both the cost and result happen as if you had used your Quick Alchemy. Including where the item ends up. This is also why it's clearly compatible with Perpetuals, as it's removing any ambiguity about the familiar being a separate lil Alchemist with their own Q-Alch.
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and IMO, going with your reading ought to trigger a too bad to be true review.
Q-Alch items disappear the next turn.
If the Lab Assistant left the item in the familiar's hands, the ability would be virtually worthless.
If there is a need to spend an Action somewhere to get the item usable, it literally cannot be Action saver. One *theoretical* niche, putting the familiar on a party member's shoulder for long-range Alch delivery via Command, is disabled by the must share your space condition.
Valet would be net 0, as would any use of the PC's Command. The only way it could ever save an Action is if you took a special Feat to extend the duration of Q-Alch items a single turn, made the item via Independent, waited a round, then got a free handoff that second round via Independent.
That's beyond horrible. Dare I say, that reading of Lab Assistant is so bad, it's too...
You are simply wrong.
English is pretty clear here, as is raw:
"It uses" doesn't leave interpetation holes.
The one who is using Quick Alchemy is the familiar.
Exactly the same if it said Steal Action actually, the stolen item wouldn't magically get teleported to your hands.
As for the reason it says "your" Quick Alchemy is because the Action this way gets the benefits tied to "your" Quick Alchemy.
So, as an example, for a level 13 Chirurgeon, the Elixirs are maximised.
If it didn't say "your" and simply said "uses Quick Alchemy" then none of the benefits tied to your character would be applicable. (Since those benefits normally apply only when you use the action )
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There's 0 leaway for your false interpretation here .
Even your "steal" example would still not leave what the one actually stealing in someone else hands. It would just means that whatever additive effect is tied to the Action called Steal apply to the one doing it.
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It would be more ambiguous indeed if the ability said something along the lines of "uses Quick FOR you", or "uses his actions INSTEAD of you" but it doesn't.
As written, the only one performing an action, for itself, is the familiar.
No wriggle room anywhere here.
The Raven Black |
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I might agree that the Lab Assistant's use of Quick Alchemy gives the exact same result as if the master had used it themselves because the master still needs to hold or wear alchemical tools themselves.
Note also that Quick Alchemy does not specify where the item is created.
So, if the Lab Assistant familiar can use the action to take the alchemical tools from their master, create the item and put the tools back in place on their master, I do not see why they could not put the created item in their master's hand.
Trip.H |
Wow, I'm honestly surprised you find this reading objectionable.
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It might be the computer programmer in me, but I read "uses your ___" like a function call. It activates your ability, with the normal input, cost, and outputs of your ability.
The default outcome of using your action is, ya know, using your action. Who, when, or why the function was called does not matter. The ability itself fires off its instructions / commands without any concern for what triggered it.
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From another angle, changing where the item ends up is an assumption you are injecting to preserve verisimilitude. The text instructs to use your ability as is. To change where the item lands would require an additional line "and the item is in the familiar's hands."
In theory, you could argue this RaW is not RaI, and the designers forgot that extra clause.
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Given the context of playing Alchemists, how Lab Assistant is written really seems intended to reduce the burden of trying to make Q-Alch viable/up to par. I also see the "must be in your space" condition as a rather strong piece of supporting evidence it was always intended to be forming the item atop your open palm.
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RaW, familiars cannot Activate anything. The only way for a familiar to help with an item is to put it in someone else's hand.
It is rather telling that you made no attempt to engage the "too bad to be true" issue.
Can anyone present a scenario in which the Lab Assistant "in familiar's hand" reading is actually beneficial and worth taking? Or at least better than a 1-star hyper niche scenario with that specific Feat?
Captain Morgan |
Just wanted to chime in with a ratfolk familiar trick. Uncanny Cheeks gives you Prescient Planner and Prescient Consumable for negligible bulk (unless you have Cheek Pouches). At tenth level, one level after you get Uncanny Cheeks, that means you can pull out whatever Familiar Morsel you need at the moment. (Anyone else can spend two general feats for the same, but one ancestry feat is a lot cheaper. Sadly, Thaumaturge lost this trick after playtest.)
Nice find. Also, does Uncanny Cheeks let you retrieve it as a single action instead of the normal 1 minute for the Prescient feats?
Captain Morgan |
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I think you're underselling the Familiar Satchel, which is a common oversight. A lot of people look at the "an area effect that deals enough damage to break the case also damages the creature inside" without considering that attended items are not damaged by area of effects. The bag is a death trap if you leave it alone, but it should pretty much always be on your person and therefore functionally invulnerable. Obviously not useful for combatant/witch familiars, but quite convenient for batteries or scouts. (Unless blocking line of effect prevents the master abilities from working.)
Captain Morgan wrote:I forgot to check this guide when building my most recent witch, but it made me feel better about taking a shadow familiar for Starless Shadow. At level 4 it eats all of my abilities and lacking independent sucks.
For the wilding abilities, it might be worth mentioning that while it is the worst patron combat ability it is a pretty nice scouting tool.
Once you're able to get back Independent, it will be a really good time, I assure you on that! But, I do hope you enjoy playing witch, it's a fun time, especially when you get flavor like that. You do raise a good point on Wilding Steward though and I have added that as an advantage accordingly.
I've only had one session so far, but she seems promising. My prior witch had the rune patron for the first two books of Strength of Thousands. I eventually got him a pipefox which was quite fun for a knowledge junkie.
Ritunn |
I think you're underselling the Familiar Satchel, which is a common oversight. A lot of people look at the "an area effect that deals enough damage to break the case also damages the creature inside" without considering that attended items are not damaged by area of effects. The bag is a death trap if you leave it alone, but it should pretty much always be on your person and therefore functionally invulnerable. Obviously not useful for combatant/witch familiars, but quite convenient for batteries or scouts. (Unless blocking line of effect prevents the master abilities from working.)
You do make a fair point. That passed my mind when writing about it likely due to the fact that it explicitly calls it out for when its unattended without mentioning that. Not sure if that makes its rating higher as I still prefer the alternatives, but it's at least better!
shroudb |
shroudb wrote:Wow, I'm honestly surprised you find this reading objectionable.
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It might be the computer programmer in me, but I read "uses your ___" like a function call. It activates your ability, with the normal input, cost, and outputs of your ability.
The default outcome of using your action is, ya know, using your action. Who, when, or why the function was called does not matter. The ability itself fires off its instructions / commands without any concern for what triggered it.
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From another angle, changing where the item ends up is an assumption you are injecting to preserve verisimilitude. The text instructs to use your ability as is. To change where the item lands would require an additional line "and the item is in the familiar's hands."
In theory, you could argue this RaW is not RaI, and the designers forgot that extra clause.
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Given the context of playing Alchemists, how Lab Assistant is written really seems intended to reduce the burden of trying to make Q-Alch viable/up to par. I also see the "must be in your space" condition as a rather strong piece of supporting evidence it was always intended to be forming the item atop your open palm.
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RaW, familiars cannot Activate anything. The only way for a familiar to help with an item is to put it in someone else's hand.
It is rather telling that you made no attempt to engage the "too bad to be true" issue.
Can anyone present a scenario in which the Lab Assistant "in familiar's hand" reading is actually beneficial and worth taking? Or at least better than a 1-star hyper niche scenario with that specific Feat?
Pathfinder 2e is explicitly written in casual, plain english, not in programmer language.
When something says "X uses Y" it is X that uses Y, not someone else.
In this case, the familiar is using the action, that's written 100% clearly.
I honestly can't see anyone reading it elsewise, in fact, after asking around at some of the tables that i play with, noone even comes close to somehow translating the ability in a way that lands the item in your hands.
The "your" is put there because it has to be put there in order to get the benefits of your abilities that synergise with Quick Alchemy and the familiar has no access to normally, but nowhere in the text of the ability it is stated that there any other change in how Quick alchemy works.
And quick alchemy works in a way that it puts the item in the users hands.
Now, in your games you can run it as you wish, but I honestly can't see any official table to accept your reading.
Trip.H |
Hunh, well I suppose I'm in the minority on this one.
I would like to just lay out the current "too bad to be true" scenario.
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In order for Lab Assistant to have *any* value:
- The Alchemist requires a Dedication Feat, and possibly an additional Feat after that to gain Enhanced Familiar.
- The Alchemist requires the Enduring Alchemy Class Feat to extend Q-Alch creations another round.
- The Alchemist is required to select the trio of Lab Assistant, Manual Dexterity, and Independent.
- Across 2 turns, the familiar must Quick Alchemy an item one round, then hand it off the next round for immediate use.
- The familiar must participate in combat, and be potentially attacked.
All of the above is required to save a single Action on Quick Alchemy, with the extra downside of receiving the item a turn late. And again, Quick Alchemy burns a full reagent, and is generally considered to be non-optimal to being with.
Does this level of requirement and payoff seem intended?
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In comparison:
Without bothering with Lab Assistant, the familiar could be doing the 2-turn combo of Draw + Hand Off of any item, including prepped alch items, scrolls, ect. Also notable is that the familiar has 2 "hands" which can start encounters loaded, meaning the action economy is better than 1 per 2 turns.
Needing only 2 familiar abilities, this strategy requires at minimum 2 less Class Feats to use.
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I personally think it's plenty safe to argue that there is no chance the designer planned for all of those interactions/requirements to be needed for Lab Assistant to gain the tiny function as described.
If that conjecture is true, then it follows that there is some other benefit to Lab Assistant.
If the destination location is not the familiar's hand, it would still be a niche familiar ability. One at its best only when combined with Enhanced Familiar for the trio, *and* another Alchemist Feat/Feature of a Perpetual item with an evergreen effect that can benefit from a scaling DC.
shroudb |
There are still uses for it, not amazing, but enough to not be tbtbt, as a simple example:
If you make your alchemist use both hands, like sword+shield, or a twohander, and etc, it still allows the alchemist to use quick alchemy to help the party.
With independent you dont even waste an action.
The ally has then a full round to grab and use the consumable.
Even without independent, you can spend an action to both make the item and have the familiar move next to the ally so that he doesn't have to come to you.
That's just base functionality, no extra feats or anything.
Trip.H |
The Alchemist class is built around preparing and using items. Any time you could waste actions and familiar abilities on creating items via Q-Alch, they could have already been prepared. If you have a receptive party, they could even already be carrying the alch item themself.
In the rare event that Q-Alch seems needed, the scenario in which it is *more* desirable for the Q-Alch item to be in the familiar's hand is as "theoretical-maybe" as it gets. Familiars cannot Activate items! No matter how you try to pass the buck, once a 1-A item is put into a familiar's hand, an action has to be wasted to get it out, when a PC could have instead used the Activation.
Moreover, the familiar can already hand off items to allies without Lab Assistant, and without the 1A Q-Alch or the extra resource burn.
And, to top all this off, base Alchemist only gets 2 familiar abilities. Lab Assistant would be coming at the expense of Independent, which is absurd to consider.
Without Independent, any use of the familiar as described will tax your Actions again to finish. You did a Command( L-A + Stride). Now the familiar is standing there. Next turn you will need to Command it again to get it to safety. AND the ally member is taxed an action that would not have been needed it the Alch just moved and used it upon the ally.
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Here's a real bummer.
Without L-A, the Alch does Q-Alch, then Command (Take + Stride). The Alch has spent another Action up front, but because he has Independent instead, the Familiar gets to return without any extra total actions. More importantly, they have the benefits of Independent, with the familiar being able to draw + handoff and do whatever as as a pure action saver. Even in your imagined scenario, Independent + Dex is better than L-A.
(and the scenario in which it's a good idea for that Alch to send the familiar instead of just Striding over themself is *already* remote / I've literally never seen nor heard of it happening)
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I have trouble imagining an Alchemist intentionally built to not have any free hands, as consumables are the whole class. Especially without martial accuracy progression, that idea is a paper theoretical.
I have literally only once seen a PC grab an item off another PC, and it was more for urgency/flavor than practicality. That is a once in a campaign moment, if at all.
Your scenario requires not only a union of these two "blue moon" possibilities to be daily occurences, but it still does not make sense for the same reason as before.
The Alch loosing 1 Action to Regrip is still at worst net neutral comparatively, because they get to just Activate the item upon its target, instead of needing someone else to Take + Activate, and then the familiar position desync needs other Actions to resolve.
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Please, actually think through what you would suggest before posting, instead of automatically choosing to present a contrary stance despite the ridiculous absurdity of the suggestions.
shroudb |
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The Alchemist class is built around preparing and using items. Any time you could waste actions and familiar abilities on creating items via Q-Alch, they could have already been prepared. If you have a receptive party, they could even already be carrying the alch item themself.
In the rare event that Q-Alch seems needed, the scenario in which it is *more* desirable for the Q-Alch item to be in the familiar's hand is as "theoretical-maybe" as it gets. Familiars cannot Activate items! No matter how you try to pass the buck, once a 1-A item is put into a familiar's hand, an action has to be wasted to get it out, when a PC could have instead used the Activation.
Moreover, the familiar can already hand off items to allies without Lab Assistant, and without the 1A Q-Alch or the extra resource burn.
And, to top all this off, base Alchemist only gets 2 familiar abilities. Lab Assistant would be coming at the expense of Independent, which is absurd to consider.
Without Independent, any use of the familiar as described will tax your Actions again to finish. You did a Command( L-A + Stride). Now the familiar is standing there. Next turn you will need to Command it again to get it to safety. AND the ally member is taxed an action that would not have been needed it the Alch just moved and used it upon the ally.
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Here's a real bummer.
Without L-A, the Alch does Q-Alch, then Command (Take + Stride). The Alch has spent another Action up front, but because he has Independent instead, the Familiar gets to return without any extra total actions. More importantly, they have the benefits of Independent, with the familiar being able to draw + handoff and do whatever as as a pure action saver. Even in your imagined scenario, Independent + Dex is better than L-A.
(and the scenario in which it's a good idea for that Alch to send the familiar instead of just Striding over themself is *already* remote / I've literally never seen nor heard of it happening)...
The power of quick alchemy is the ability to make stuff on the spot that you haven't prepared.
Your whole tantrum about what alchemist is about is absolutely irrelevant.
I've seen quite a few alchemists that in combat don't have free hands, I've even played one.
Lab assistant is perfect for them.
It allows them to make items for their allies without wasting actions swapping grips.
Niche? Maybe, but certainly less niche than other familiar abilities like touch telepathy, amphibious, and the likes.
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Because you lack the imagination to actually try stuff you don't have to resort to personal attacks just because you were wrong.
Because you lack the experience to have seen things, also doesn't make you right.
You can also bold stuff as much as you like, but please read first what you reply to. Where did I say a familiar activating anything?
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In short, you have an extremely close minded, inexperienced, view of a class.
The ability is only tbtbt only within those strict confinements that you created for yourself.
Trip.H |
Attack the speaker, refuse to even attempt to debunk the presented points.
Seeking out new information, testing new theories, and challenging norms is the opposite of close minded.
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Moving an item between actors costs an Action. Familiars can't use items.
Even if the Alch is going 2-Handed. Regrip or Swap is 1 Action. And Reload provides a free Regrip inside it anyway.
The Alch PC using Q-Alch is -1 Action compared to it being in the familiar's hand at baseline.
Even when using Command's 2:1, the leftover action costs of moving the familiar, *especially* if a PC needs to take the item off the familiar and then use it, will lead to Lab Assistant being a net negative in the vast majority of cases.
It is theoretically possible a Restrained Alch would want to get a silver-bullet item like a Contagion Metabolizer to an ally, yes.
Have you genuinely ever saved an Action by using Lab Assistant?
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It is good to play however it makes one happy. Especially when intentionally taking sub optimal options for flavor. It can feel great to make it work. Like choosing Alchemist to begin with.
It is not okay for that personal preference to twist discussions of options/rules in the abstract.
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The Independent + Manual Dex familiar is the improvised spine just barely holding the Alchemist class upright.
That reliable way to get "free Draws" for 1-A activations of alch items is how Alchemists can use their (non Q-Bomber) items in combat without performing at parody levels of inadequacy.
No experienced Alch player could honest suggest taking Lab Assistant instead of Independent for mechanical reasons.
Twiggies |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you for this guide, flipping through it now to see what I could do with a kineticist because I theoretically want a little fire guy for my kineticist so bad but it's so hard to justify over other more immediately useful things.
Also the images are so cute! Could you source the artists in them please? I'd love to see some of their work and also it's nice to credit artists.
Captain Morgan |
Thank you for this guide, flipping through it now to see what I could do with a kineticist because I theoretically want a little fire guy for my kineticist so bad but it's so hard to justify over other more immediately useful things.
Also the images are so cute! Could you source the artists in them please? I'd love to see some of their work and also it's nice to credit artists.
You can always use the fire guy to scout.
Ritunn |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you for this guide, flipping through it now to see what I could do with a kineticist because I theoretically want a little fire guy for my kineticist so bad but it's so hard to justify over other more immediately useful things.
Also the images are so cute! Could you source the artists in them please? I'd love to see some of their work and also it's nice to credit artists.
You can find them all in the art credit section! Most of it is just art of my PCs by my friend, GrimmTindalos, but you'll be able to find everyone at the bottom there.
shroudb |
Attack the speaker, refuse to even attempt to debunk the presented points.
Seeking out new information, testing new theories, and challenging norms is the opposite of close minded.
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Moving an item between actors costs an Action. Familiars can't use items.
Even if the Alch is going 2-Handed. Regrip or Swap is 1 Action. And Reload provides a free Regrip inside it anyway.
The Alch PC using Q-Alch is -1 Action compared to it being in the familiar's hand at baseline.
Even when using Command's 2:1, the leftover action costs of moving the familiar, *especially* if a PC needs to take the item off the familiar and then use it, will lead to Lab Assistant being a net negative in the vast majority of cases.
It is theoretically possible a Restrained Alch would want to get a silver-bullet item like a Contagion Metabolizer to an ally, yes.
Have you genuinely ever saved an Action by using Lab Assistant?
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It is good to play however it makes one happy. Especially when intentionally taking sub optimal options for flavor. It can feel great to make it work. Like choosing Alchemist to begin with.
It is not okay for that personal preference to twist discussions of options/rules in the abstract.
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The Independent + Manual Dex familiar is the improvised spine just barely holding the Alchemist class upright.
That reliable way to get "free Draws" for 1-A activations of alch items is how Alchemists can use their (non Q-Bomber) items in combat without performing at parody levels of inadequacy.
No experienced Alch player could honest suggest taking Lab Assistant instead of Independent for mechanical reasons.
I only responded to the personal attacks that you started because you didn't have any actual arguments.
All your points have been refuted already (mostly due to them being erroneous things that i never said to begin with).
Yes, it takes 2 actions for an ally to take and use the item. So? If you were to make and administer the item it would also be two actions. Independant Quick alchemy means 0 actions from you, 2 from the ally vs 1 to make +1 to administer. If you need to change grips, it is a net loss of actions for the party.
Yes, having the familiar make an item and move next to the target and the target taking and using the item is the same amount of party actions, 3 total actions either way. 1 command +2 to take and use, vs 1 to make, 1 to move, 1 to administer. If you need to change grips another net loss of actions. It also doesn't completely destroy your positioning.
In any combat that the party is already positioned, having to move to the ally to administer, or having the ally move to you to get items is a great loss of actions and tactical advantage as opposed to sending the familiar with the item, keeping the flnk going and the players positioned properly.
And etc multiple examples that you would have seen if you ever played with a twi-handed using alchemist.
So yes, it is great for specific alchemists, and bad otherwise. That's perfectly fine for a selectable ability.
I'm not going to argue the free regrip with reload thing, that has already been debated to death and there's no concensous, in my tables, it doesn't fly. In yours it may, but it still doesn't cover the most frequent two-handed alchemists, who are using melee reach weapons.
A fury mutagenist with polearm as an example can get attack bonuses equivalent to martials on most of the levels, and even greater than most martials on some levels by using a Crawling Hand familiar, which is the character that I was actually playing. 15ft reach, AoO, amazing attack bonuses on my 1st Strike of each turn. And no hands to use Quick alchemy (and certainly not wanting to mess up my flanks) if i needed to deliver a quick help in an ally somewhere in the battlefield.
Trip.H |
At the end of your Action equal use of the familiar as courier, the familiar is out of position, and needs more actions to remediate. Meaning it is not Action equal.
I also struggle to conceive of circumstances where the Alch moving is too dicey a proposition, but the familiar is fine to risk Striding away from the Alch.
The familiar is a much more fragile target, and as soon as they run across the field, they are liable to get smacked.
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Your already in-reach example, with Independent, is much better. In that case, it's a matter of who is more likely to have a hand free. That Monk wont have trouble taking an elixir off the Alch, but that Champion sure will.
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An Alchemist with 2-H weapons is not able to use items without additional action loss. While it's rather straightforwardly not using the actual primary feature of the class, 2-H a melee weapon is something an Alch PC could choose to do.
I must still reiterate it is literally playing antithetically to one's own class design. Like a Wizard intentionally leaving their spell slots stuck behind an extra action tax, to maybe Strike as good as a base martial. Sometimes, and with dangerous downsides.
It is absolutely an absurd edge case, but is also correct to say that someone finds/will find it appealing.
If an Alchemist is committed to a 2-H style, a familiar making something off the book instead of pulling a prepped item off a belt is real possible use-case.
While I've never played with anyone who has found alch items appealing enough to spend 2, or 3 with a Stride, Actions to pluck and use them, such players also likely do exist.
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For me, the likelihood of all those required stars aligning is as I said "a once in a campaign" type event for general advice.
And frankly, it's not okay to give your analysis without the context in which it was actually useful.
The sheer number of asterisks*** shows how absurdly unlikely it is to apply for anyone else reading the guide. (if locked into a 2-H playstyle, and have Enhanced familiar for the Independent, and your allies are willing/wanting to take items off you, and you do not / did not prep said items)
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So sure, if an Alchemist decided to play a 2-H Barbarian and not use items, the familiar ability Lab Assistant might have a real use case.
Frankly, I think the stark abnormality of such circumstance does a rather fine job of demonstrating just how poorly Lab Assistant compares to the other options competing for that ability slot.
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PS, I have no idea how the Regrip inside Reload could be ruled otherwise.
You can't Reload with a hand that is busy. In order to Reload a 1-H gun, you must use the other hand. That's why the Capacity trait (not Repeating) exists on Reload 1 1-H weapons, so you can have the off-hand full, but still use Interact to ready the next barrel without freeing a hand as is mandated by Reload.
You need a free hand to do any Interact Action. Same for 2-H Xbows. From the game's rules, it doesn't matter if you are 2-H a big sword or an Xbow. Any 2-H wield prevents Interacts. "Reloading a ranged weapon and drawing a thrown weapon both require a free hand."
You cannot perform Reload until after you free a hand. Meaning, you can (must) reload a 2-H Xbow while holding it with 1 hand. If your hand was free long before a Reload, there's no effect upon the Reload Action.
"Switching your grip to free a hand and then to place your hands in the grip necessary to wield the weapon are both included in the actions you spend to reload a weapon."
It's not an IF - THEN statement. There is no requirement to wield in order get the regrip.
"If you are wielding the weapon in 2-H, then both freeing a hand and placing your hands in the grip to wield it are included in the reload actions" would be the sort of language to contextually and exclusively end a Reload without a need to Regrip.
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If something as straightforward as the Reload-Regrip interaction would cause problems at your table, I must say I am glad to not play there.
shroudb |
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shroudb wrote:At the end of your Action equal use of the familiar as courier, the familiar is out of position, and needs more actions to remediate. Meaning it is not Action equal.
I also struggle to conceive of circumstances where the Alch moving is too dicey a proposition, but the familiar is fine to risk Striding away from the Alch.
The familiar is a much more fragile target, and as soon as they run across the field, they are liable to get smacked.
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Your already in-reach example, with Independent, is much better. In that case, it's a matter of who is more likely to have a hand free. That Monk wont have trouble taking an elixir off the Alch, but that Champion sure will.
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An Alchemist with 2-H weapons is not able to use items without additional action loss. While it's rather straightforwardly not using the actual primary feature of the class, 2-H a melee weapon is something an Alch PC could choose to do.
I must still reiterate it is literally playing antithetically to one's own class design. Like a Wizard intentionally leaving their spell slots stuck behind an extra action tax, to maybe Strike as good as a base martial. Sometimes, and with dangerous downsides.
It is absolutely an absurd edge case, but is also correct to say that someone finds/will find it appealing.
If an Alchemist is committed to a 2-H style, a familiar making something off the book instead of pulling a prepped item off a belt is real possible use-case.
While I've never played with anyone who has found alch items appealing enough to spend 2, or 3 with a Stride, Actions to pluck and use them, such players also likely do exist.
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For me, the likelihood of all those required stars aligning is as I said "a once in a campaign" type event for general advice.
And frankly, it's not okay to give your analysis without the context in which it was actually useful.
The sheer number of asterisks*** shows how absurdly unlikely it is to apply for...
The fact that you fail to understand that a two handed mutagenist is a perfectly normal character to play bogles my mind, and it shows how your view is shoehorned into that single aspect of an alchemist and refuses to see anything else.
The primary feature is flexible enough to allow you to do so, especially now with collar for free hand mutagens and the ability to preload poisons and predestribute your items to your party members.As I said earlier: in your very close interpetation of how a class "should" function, only then it is "too bad" of a feature.
a)The familiar has a free action each turn, so it wasting a "turn" getting back is no big deal.
b)It's not about how danagerous is for the alchemist to move, but how bad it is for him to break positioning if he is already setup, action economy wise.
c)Yes, it does depend if the party has free hands, but in this occasion, we know that the lachemist doesn't have free hands. So, at worst, it's just equal. At best, it is pure action gain.
d)you fail to realize that it's not "once per campaign" but "once per fight" for all those characters.
e)if you feel alchmical items aren't worth 2 actions, then why do you feel that they are worth 2 actions "from an alchemist"? Are your actions so much less valuable? Hint: Alchemist's first Strike should, if properly build, be better than someone's else 2nd Strike.
f)the regrip with reanged has been beaten to death already, and most posters do not share your viewpoint, no need to restart this argument here just because "you" can't see that viewpoint.
Twiggies |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Twiggies wrote:You can find them all in the art credit section! Most of it is just art of my PCs by my friend, GrimmTindalos, but you'll be able to find everyone at the bottom there.Thank you for this guide, flipping through it now to see what I could do with a kineticist because I theoretically want a little fire guy for my kineticist so bad but it's so hard to justify over other more immediately useful things.
Also the images are so cute! Could you source the artists in them please? I'd love to see some of their work and also it's nice to credit artists.
Ahah! Thank you.