Now I'm curious - how many people have seen battle forms cast from slots?
And were they worth said slots when cast? Or lackluster?
I've seen them more often used from slots than focus spells actually.
Ooze form is quite good at mitigating crits when you're basically guaranteed to be crit anyway. It's kept a couple people alive for far longer than they had any right to be.
Dragon Form and Elemental Form were used when fast flight was needed pretty well. Dragon also for elemental damage, particularly AoE.
Animal Form has been slot efficient for spread groups before Chain Lightning.
Overall every time I've seen a battle form spell cast it has been worthwhile.
And here you completely left out the most important point of his post
No, that was actually the least important part of the post in question. To the point it was nearly off-topic to that post, though yes it does tie back to the other issue previously mentioned (and incidentally that I didn't say anything in disagreement with it, so me not addressing it is even further not necessary).
Our exchange, however, was about the act of stating things in terms of "No one ever..." and in the context of someone using that sort of fallacious back-up to their own statements, I am being as fair as one can be.
If Gortle can manage an actual discussion despite those kind of statements, it's because the others involved in the discussion are doing extra work to make that happen, not because Gortle's discussing with an appropriate attitude and openness to discussion.
Now I'm curious - how many people have seen battle forms cast from slots?
And were they worth said slots when cast? Or lackluster?
I've seen them more often used from slots than focus spells actually.
Ooze form is quite good at mitigating crits when you're basically guaranteed to be crit anyway. It's kept a couple people alive for far longer than they had any right to be.
Dragon Form and Elemental Form were used when fast flight was needed pretty well. Dragon also for elemental damage, particularly AoE.
Animal Form has been slot efficient for spread groups before Chain Lightning.
Overall every time I've seen a battle form spell cast it has been worthwhile.
Nice.
Do people find it's accurate enough? I sort of ran into the issue when I was looking at it, in that it seems even - numbered levels can't hit.
But I want to know if this is actually an issue other people are having.
I enjoyed being a Kaiju, lost fly speed and elemental damage on primary attack from dragon form I primarily used, but nice damage overall, reach everything for grapple and trips, even over buildings. Nothing says cool like punching someone through the roof.
Being able to be what ever when ever maximizes your utility for forms as tools, depending on what your doing could be very good.
I think the utility of being able to pick what ever form best suits a situation is why the forms tend to be weak.
An option someday to focus on just one form, via class or archetype, would likely be stronger and perhaps fulfill the fantasy many talk about when speaking of wild shape and similar options.
I'm interested in the primary topic of this thread: Wildshape vs. Martial Damage Math. Will anyone actually share their math for people to look at. Its all been unsubstantiated statements up to this point.
Also did they ever clarify the major issue with fighter MC druid in an errata? Primarily that they only get their +2 to hit with unarmed strikes of a 'weapon group' and the wild-shape unarmed strikes don't have a weapon group (so even the fighter can only get a standard martial scaling proficiency). Its the same issue with the lizardfolk/iruxi unarmed strike feats and the druid wildmorph spell.
FYI - The wildmorph focus spell is super underrated for martial MC druids because at spell rank 6 (i.e., animal shape caps out at L5) you get a massive boost by adding 2D6 persistent damage on a hit (not critical hit), which eventually goes to 4D6. Also if your GM is kind (I expect RAI) you can get the jaws and claws and dish out two different kinds of persistent damage (bonus if you are an orc changeling for a L5/L9 feats that add 1d4 persistent damage of different types on a critical).
Also did they ever clarify the major issue with fighter MC druid in an errata? Primarily that they only get their +2 to hit with unarmed strikes of a 'weapon group' and the wild-shape unarmed strikes don't have a weapon group (so even the fighter can only get a standard martial scaling proficiency).
There was no change to the rules to make it easier for Fighters to get bonus proficiency, no. Fit martial artist somewhere in your build.
I'm interested in the primary topic of this thread: Wildshape vs. Martial Damage Math. Will anyone actually share their math for people to look at. Its all been unsubstantiated statements up to this point.
Also did they ever clarify the major issue with fighter MC druid in an errata? Primarily that they only get their +2 to hit with unarmed strikes of a 'weapon group' and the wild-shape unarmed strikes don't have a weapon group (so even the fighter can only get a standard martial scaling proficiency). Its the same issue with the lizardfolk/iruxi unarmed strike feats and the druid wildmorph spell.
FYI - The wildmorph focus spell is super underrated for martial MC druids because at spell rank 6 (i.e., animal shape caps out at L5) you get a massive boost by adding 2D6 persistent damage on a hit (not critical hit), which eventually goes to 4D6. Also if your GM is kind (I expect RAI) you can get the jaws and claws and dish out two different kinds of persistent damage (bonus if you are an orc changeling for a L5/L9 feats that add 1d4 persistent damage of different types on a critical).
You ask, I deliver:
Level 3:
This is where animal form comes online.
Martial with a greatsword swings at +3 levels +4 str +2 proficiency +1 item= +10 to hit. Deals 1d12+4 damage (no striking yet). Roughly 10
AC (with medium armor and okay dex) is 10 + 3 levels + 5 armor +2 proficiency = 20
Druid in canine animal form has +9 to hit, dealing 2d8+1 damage. Roughly 10
AC is 16 + 3 levels= 19
So fairly balanced at 3. Obviously the martial character has actual feats.
Level 5:
Martial has striking rune. Druid still animal form. Can get insect form at 6 but probably not worth it then.
AC (with medium armor and okay dex) is 10 + 5 levels + 5 armor +2 proficiency +1 armor potency= 23
Druid in canine animal form has +14 to hit, dealing 2d8+5 damage. Roughly 14
AC is 17 + 5 levels= 22
Higher martial damage but not by much. As always martial has actual feats and crit spec.
Insect form at level 6 only has +13 to hit and beetle damage is 2d10+2 or 13. AC 18+5=23. Trades accuracy and damage for AC.
Level 7:
Martial has striking rune. Druid is animal form or insect form, though level 8 they can go dinosaur too. It's equal numbers with triceratops or stegosaurus to canine form there.
AC (with medium armor and okay dex) is 10 + 9 levels + 5 armor +2 proficiency +1 armor potency= 27
Druid in canine animal form has +18 to hit, dealing 4d8+7 damage. Roughly 25
AC is 18 + 9 levels= 27
Equal accuracy and AC. Druid slightly higher damage without property runes.
Dinosaur form is identical AC and accuracy with stegosaurus and triceratops. Deals 4d8+6 damage with triceratops or stegosaurus but basically the same.
Insect form is identical AC and accuracy, dealing 4d10+2 or 24 damage.
Elemental form is AC 28 (1 point higher), +18 to hit, but only 2d10+9=20 damage (5 points lower) on the earth elemental and lower for the others. I wouldn't at this level.
I'll do more math later, but you can see it's pretty much equal...on odd numbered levels. Accuracy is lower on even ones for the druid.
Property runes aren't necessary at these levels. Though the numbers are close enough you can totally give them out, since as a reminder martials actually have things like fighter accuracy, AoO, critical specialization and barbarian rage. And heavy armor is available for some and boosts AC by 1.
To continue Calliope's calculations, here's a summary of what I have for attack bonuses for levels 10+. It may be slightly incorrect, but it's based on regular martial (not fighter) + ability boosts + runes vs. wildshape basic bonus for 'best available' form (which is highest rank spell available).
This does not take into account any class-specific features.
Level 10 is pretty low because the martial gets their standard level bonus, plus an attribute boost, plus a new potency rune...while the caster got their rank 5 form at level 9, can't yet cast rank 6 spells, and thus has the same attack bonus they received/"is designed for" level 9.
Spell rank is where the odd/even effect comes from; casters can only increase spell rank every odd level, so on even levels the shapeshifter must use the previous level's form...which has been designed to be roughly comparable to the previous level's attack and defense. So when at an even numbered level, the shapeshifter is essentially fighting 'one level behind.'
Personally, I agree with Orochi. These are not bad numbers considering the character has a variety of forms they can memorize and can switch hit as a full caster any time they want. Maybe a dedicated "shapeshifter martial" should have a more martial-like attack progression, but a full caster with a variety of spells, some of which happen to be polymorphing spells, is not that class.
To continue Calliope's calculations, here's a summary of what I have for attack bonuses for levels 10+. It may be slightly incorrect, but it's based on regular martial (not fighter) + ability boosts + runes vs. wildshape basic bonus for 'best available' form (which is highest rank spell available).
This does not take into account any class-specific features.
Level 10 is pretty low because the martial gets their standard level bonus, plus an attribute boost, plus a new potency rune...while the caster got their rank 5 form at level 9, can't yet cast rank 6 spells, and thus has the same attack bonus they received/"is designed for" level 9.
Spell rank is where the odd/even effect comes from; casters can only increase spell rank every odd level, so on even levels the shapeshifter must use the previous level's form...which has been designed to be roughly comparable to the previous level's attack and defense. So when at an even numbered level, the shapeshifter is essentially fighting 'one level behind.'
Personally, I agree with Orochi. These are not bad numbers considering the character has a variety of forms they can memorize and can switch hit as a full caster any time they want. Maybe a dedicated "shapeshifter martial" should have a more martial-like attack progression, but a full caster with a variety of spells, some of which happen to be polymorphing spells, is not that class.
Thanks, Easl!
Here's the complete calculation:
Martial Damage Calculations:
These numbers assume a fully-upgraded d12 weapon and standard martial progression, but no specific class features like sneak attack or barbarian rage bonuses. Rounding up on fractions.
In general, wildshape attack lags by a point 60% of the time.
AC comparison:
Martial AC is standard progression, no special features like paladin legendary armor proficiency. Assumes medium armor progression, which is what fighter, ranger, and thaumaturge currently have (expert at 11, master at 17), wearing medium armor (+5 armor bonus to AC).
Wildshape AC is standard AC for animal form/dragon form/monstrosity form/nature incarnate.
Tl;dr Wildshape averages maybe a point behind on attack bonus and AC compared to a medium-armored martial with a standard-progression weapon. It also lags generic martials with no crit spec, reactive strike, barbarian rage bonus damage, or feats in terms of damage. With something like barbarian rage added, wildshape gets blown out of the water.
It wouldn't break anything to give wildshape property runes in my opinion, since you're already a little weaker than the martial chassis with no class features whatsoever. "Having martial class features" probably is adequate compensation for "having spellcaster class features" (namely, druid casting).
Especially because "skeleton martial" (d12 class with no features) isn't mind-breakingly good, and you're spending two actions to activate it.
To continue Calliope's calculations, here's a summary of what I have for attack bonuses for levels 10+. It may be slightly incorrect, but it's based on regular martial (not fighter) + ability boosts + runes vs. wildshape basic bonus for 'best available' form (which is highest rank spell available).
These are wrong. If we make the (nearly universally agreed to, as far as I can tell) assumption that druids benefit from potency runes, then at L10 they get a bonus of +10 (level) +2 (trained) +4 (stat) +2 potency for a +18.
This is HIGHER than the +17 of plant form so they get the +2 status bonus giving them a +20 to hit.
Similarly, at Level 12 their to hit of +22 is higher than 21 and so they get a +24.
And are doing quite competitive damage at 2d10+11 with a 15 ft reach at level 10, 2d10+16 20 ft reach at level 12.
The druidic wild shape +2 status bonus is hard to get but NOT impossible at some selected levels. Even with the most pessimistic assumptions.
These are wrong. If we make the (nearly universally agreed to, as far as I can tell) assumption that druids benefit from potency runes, then at L10 they get a bonus of +10 (level) +2 (trained) +4 (stat) +2 potency for a +18.
Uh, that's correct. My numbers above are comparing the 'flat bonus' for the shape to a standard martial, and as stated "does not take into account any class-specific features." A druid who chooses to max out their STR and use their own attack modifier (with all the respective bonuses) can do a little better.
Given the numbers above, I'd say that shapeshifting into a 'battle form' is a viable way to play most of the time for *any* full caster with the primal list. There are a few levels where you're much better off just casting, but being able to spend zero build resources on Str and getting a melee combat form that is viable in about half your play time...while maintaining the ability to go full big blaster when you need to...IMO, that's pretty good. Lots of play and concept flexibility there.
To continue Calliope's calculations, here's a summary of what I have for attack bonuses for levels 10+. It may be slightly incorrect, but it's based on regular martial (not fighter) + ability boosts + runes vs. wildshape basic bonus for 'best available' form (which is highest rank spell available).
These are wrong. If we make the (nearly universally agreed to, as far as I can tell) assumption that druids benefit from potency runes, then at L10 they get a bonus of +10 (level) +2 (trained) +4 (stat) +2 potency for a +18.
This is HIGHER than the +17 of plant form so they get the +2 status bonus giving them a +20 to hit.
Similarly, at Level 12 their to hit of +22 is higher than 21 and so they get a +24.
And are doing quite competitive damage at 2d10+11 with a 15 ft reach at level 10, 2d10+16 20 ft reach at level 12.
The druidic wild shape +2 status bonus is hard to get but NOT impossible at some selected levels. Even with the most pessimistic assumptions.
Well, are property runes constant abilities? I'm not sure they are:
Quote:
you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties. Unless otherwise noted, the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there's doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.) Your gear is absorbed into you; the constant abilities of your gear still function, but you can't activate any items.
It's dubious if they are still in effect, and because of this a calculation should assume it's too good-to-be-true and not assume it works without absolute certainty. It being ostensibly universally agreed upon is not justification for its inclusion. Looking at the math putting the damage only a little behind martials says to me that the assumption by the designers is property runes are not included and so I personally would say they don't work as a GM
Looking at the math putting the damage only a little behind martials says to me that the assumption by the designers is property runes are not included and so I personally would say they don't work as a GM
While I certainly see your point I think that you're very much an outlier on this.
I've been involved in probably literally dozens of discussions of the mechanics of wild shape over the years. And, as far as I recall, you are the ONLY person who doesn't think that potency runes figure into the calculation for when the druids +2 status bonus applies.
I know that I've played a wild shaping character under at least a dozen different GMs (PFS) and every single one has allowed potency runes to apply.
Foundry doesn't get them right, mind. Never checked to see if that is a disagreement on the rules or just a bug.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish that Paizo would specify how all this works. Don't really care what that specification is, I just wish they'd tell us and not leave so much up to table variation. Reasonable interpretations of the rules can yield a HUGE difference in how viable Wild Shape is. Although, even with a very conservative set of assumptions, Wild Shape is definitely a very good thing to have in a casters tool box
Potency runes figure into the "your own attack bonus" part, but property runes are something I don't think are intended to be applied to battle forms just like they aren't actually an assumed (meaning mandatory to not feel below benchmark) part of a martial character's kit.
It'd be great to have Paizo clarify if property runes were constant effects... but it's also one of those things where whether you allow them or not you're hardly changing the numbers enough for it to cause an issue so it's fine to let it be a point of table variance even though it's mildly annoying.
Looking at the math putting the damage only a little behind martials says to me that the assumption by the designers is property runes are not included and so I personally would say they don't work as a GM
While I certainly see your point I think that you're very much an outlier on this.
I've been involved in probably literally dozens of discussions of the mechanics of wild shape over the years. And, as far as I recall, you are the ONLY person who doesn't think that potency runes figure into the calculation for when the druids +2 status bonus applies.
I know that I've played a wild shaping character under at least a dozen different GMs (PFS) and every single one has allowed potency runes to apply.
Foundry doesn't get them right, mind. Never checked to see if that is a disagreement on the rules or just a bug.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish that Paizo would specify how all this works. Don't really care what that specification is, I just wish they'd tell us and not leave so much up to table variation. Reasonable interpretations of the rules can yield a HUGE difference in how viable Wild Shape is. Although, even with a very conservative set of assumptions, Wild Shape is definitely a very good thing to have in a casters tool box
The numbers were the ones given in the spell. I'm aware you can pump them a little higher... sometimes...if you pump strength. I didn't assume that. But if someone else wants to crunch those numbers I'd love to see them!
As for property runes, nobody KNOWS. Personally I think the numbers aren't great so we should be kind to the druid.
And remember that the martial damage numbers don't have opportunity attacks or barb rage damage or sneak attack. They are NOT real martial numbers. Just the skeleton of them.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I've allowed damaging property runes (but not striking runes) for wildshaped characters in my games. It was quite fun (an electrical triceratops is quite something!) and didn't seem to mess with balance at all.
Calliope5431 wrote:
With something like barbarian rage added, wildshape gets blown out of the water.
Keep in mind that, due to the Concentrate trait, you can't rage then wildshape. You must wildshape, then rage. Furthermore, for the same reason once you do that you cannot end wildshape willingly until your rage ends first. If an ally suddenly needs a heal or there's a perfect opportunity to use fireball you're stuck.
With something like barbarian rage added, wildshape gets blown out of the water.
Keep in mind that, due to the Concentrate trait, you can't rage then wildshape. You must wildshape, then rage. Furthermore, for the same reason once you do that you cannot end wildshape willingly until your rage ends first. If an ally suddenly needs a heal or there's a perfect opportunity to use fireball you're stuck.
Oh sorry, that wasn't my point actually.
I was comparing druid wild shape damage to the damage of a martial like barbarian.
And my point is that it's equal to barbarian damage with a greatsword...if the barbarian had no feats or rage damage.
Since the barbarian does have rage damage, crit spec, and class feats, druid is nowhere close to a real martial.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Calliope5431 wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
With something like barbarian rage added, wildshape gets blown out of the water.
Keep in mind that, due to the Concentrate trait, you can't rage then wildshape. You must wildshape, then rage. Furthermore, for the same reason once you do that you cannot end wildshape willingly until your rage ends first. If an ally suddenly needs a heal or there's a perfect opportunity to use fireball you're stuck.
Oh sorry, that wasn't my point actually.
I was comparing druid wild shape damage to the damage of a martial like barbarian.
And my point is that it's equal to barbarian damage with a greatsword...if the barbarian had no feats or rage damage.
Since the barbarian does have rage damage, crit spec, and class feats, druid is nowhere close to a real martial.
Got it. I'm too accustomed to our party's druid-barbarian mecha-triceratops I guess.
With something like barbarian rage added, wildshape gets blown out of the water.
Keep in mind that, due to the Concentrate trait, you can't rage then wildshape. You must wildshape, then rage. Furthermore, for the same reason once you do that you cannot end wildshape willingly until your rage ends first. If an ally suddenly needs a heal or there's a perfect opportunity to use fireball you're stuck.
Oh sorry, that wasn't my point actually.
I was comparing druid wild shape damage to the damage of a martial like barbarian.
And my point is that it's equal to barbarian damage with a greatsword...if the barbarian had no feats or rage damage.
Since the barbarian does have rage damage, crit spec, and class feats, druid is nowhere close to a real martial.
Got it. I'm too accustomed to our party's druid-barbarian mecha-triceratops I guess.
There are only 3 levels where you effectively can get use of the +2 status bonus from the druid wilshape focus spell on a top tier even level wildshape. That is level 4 (animal shape), Level 10 (Plant Shape), and L12 (Aerial Form and Plant Form). Otherwise you can only get your attack modifier higher with the +2 status bonus on a trailing spell (i.e., it wasn't heightened at your current highest spell rank).
Using your best attack modifier (inexpedient of damage) you are at or higher than a martial for 8 of 12 levels. Like many casters that try to be martially inclined it is much worse for the back half of the game where it isn't just equal or 1 behind, for L13 on wards its largely 1 or 2 behind (and I'd challenge whether that 2 behind levels which are 4 total are going to be viable).
I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish that Paizo would specify how all this works. Don't really care what that specification is, I just wish they'd tell us and not leave so much up to table variation. Reasonable interpretations of the rules can yield a HUGE difference in how viable Wild Shape is.
It is kind of wild that even after all these years questions like "how much damage do you do" can still be something we're not sure about and have contradictory input on.
thenobledrake wrote:
It'd be great to have Paizo clarify if property runes were constant effects... but it's also one of those things where whether you allow them or not you're hardly changing the numbers enough for it to cause an issue so it's fine to let it be a point of table variance even though it's mildly annoying.
Sort of disagree on 'hardly changing the numbers', we're talking about maybe 20% more damage in certain cases. Three damage dealing property runes is comparable to the difference between a non-giant barbarian raging or not. That's definitely pretty meaningful.
AestheticDialectic wrote:
Looking at the math putting the damage only a little behind martials
Minor correction, but it's not "only a little behind martials," it's only a little behind a 'generic martial' which is a fictional construct.
I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish that Paizo would specify how all this works. Don't really care what that specification is, I just wish they'd tell us and not leave so much up to table variation. Reasonable interpretations of the rules can yield a HUGE difference in how viable Wild Shape is.
It is kind of wild that even after all these years questions like "how much damage do you do" can still be something we're not sure about and have contradictory input on.
thenobledrake wrote:
It'd be great to have Paizo clarify if property runes were constant effects... but it's also one of those things where whether you allow them or not you're hardly changing the numbers enough for it to cause an issue so it's fine to let it be a point of table variance even though it's mildly annoying.
Sort of disagree on 'hardly changing the numbers', we're talking about maybe 20% more damage in certain cases. Three damage dealing property runes is comparable to the difference between a non-giant barbarian raging or not. That's definitely pretty meaningful.
AestheticDialectic wrote:
Looking at the math putting the damage only a little behind martials
Minor correction, but it's not "only a little behind martials," it's only a little behind a 'generic martial' which is a fictional construct.
Yeah maybe I should have given the numbers for a dragon barbarian or something so that it was more obvious. I can do that later.
But the numbers I gave are for someone with martial attack progression and weapon specialization armed with a greatsword. I was trying to show that before class features, feats and spellcasting, wild shape druid and barbarian were somewhat similar.
Real martial characters have rage, fighter attack bonus, Hunter's Edge, or sneak attack. As well as opportunity attacks and critical specialization. All of which massively increase their damage above that baseline.
Sort of disagree on 'hardly changing the numbers', we're talking about maybe 20% more damage in certain cases. Three damage dealing property runes is comparable to the difference between a non-giant barbarian raging or not. That's definitely pretty meaningful.
I think of it as hardly changing the numbers because to get to the point where the difference is as impactful as a basic damage boosting feature you have to crank it all the way to maximum.
You're talking about a character that ostensibly doesn't use weapons having invested as much into a weapon as a character for whom a weapon is their most important tool, just so they can apply a few extra d6 of damage at the level of game when the spell portion of your damage is something like 2d12+20 and resistances are common enough that you'd need greater property runes to have those dice still matter and you're then talking about whether you spent that 28,435 gp on a potential damage boost from 33 average to 43.5 average or you spent it on a whole array of other things (since that's an apex item level of investment).
And skipping past the actual play experience where the player is going up just a level at a time, finding just an item at a time, budgeting their wealth into what is most useful at the moment... so will likely just not start putting money into handwraps and property runes that will eventually be ever so slightly more than just a drop in a bucket.
I don't trust links from strangers on the internet, but stange digital curtains don't scare me:
Traxun Sharptooth, Valley Guardian “Experience has shown me that it is usually the young and foolish that seek the highest peak from which to fall.”
Many who know of Traxun Sharptooth only know him from the strange tales that surround him and his past. “He’s actually a three-horn who chooses to look like a dwarf,” come whispers from the bar corner, or “he was adopted by the huge beasts as a babe, and is now more thunder lizard than dwarf,” comes a joke from the bartender. In truth, Traxun started life as Aurun Silveranvil, hailing from the Realms of the Mammoth Lords. His family has spent many years at the forge, crafting ornate armor and deadly weapons with which to trade with the Kellid peoples. Their skill was such that they were often sought out by heroes of the land, such as the now forgotten warrior, Mammo Higgins, whom Aurun’s grandfather fought alongside against a frost giant incursion lead by Jarl Gnargorak. (“And a great honor it was!” he would later tell his grandchildren.) After driving the incursion back, the giants seemed to fade from view. Aurun, like many of the prouder Kellids in his generation, attributed this to the superiority of their way of life, bragging that giants can witness “smaller folk” defeating their kin in battle only so many times before they retreat for good. Some Mammoth Lords have already taken to calling the giants a folktale of the past, and so young Aurun scarcely believed his grandfather’s wild tales. Aurun was brave, foolhardy, and impetuous in his youth. His love for beer, battle, and—best of all—the hunt, was insatiable. To him the bigger the trophy the greater the renown—and the more women he could swoon into his bedchambers.
Fate would soon change his course, however. In his arrogance, Aurun decided to hunt down and slay an infamous beast called the Great White Mastodon. The albino mastodon was rumored to be many times larger and more dangerous than even the local mammoths, to leave no trail that could be tracked, and to have eluded and crushed dozens of hunting parties for as far back as anyone could recall. Aurun put a hunting party together and set out into the wilderness, chasing leads from exclusive reports they had obtained. After several weeks of trekking through the wilderness, they came across the behemoth. Larger than even the wildest of rumors, the beast—long accustomed to being attacked by hunters—possessed numerous scars and maddened eyes red like pools of blood. Though they wounded the fell monster, sending it fleeing back into the Tusk Mountains, the immense titan nevertheless annihilated most of Aurun’s hunting companions within mere minutes of their encountering it. Despite being bruised and battered himself, Aurun gave chase with naught but vengeance in his heart, but soon lost his quarry in a sudden blizzard.
Aurun wandered for days on end, the remaining members of his party ultimately abandoning him to die on his fool’s quest. Dying from exposure, in what should have been his last moments in the snow, he believed he saw the beast in the distance being led deep underground by a band of frost giants. Knowing he had no recourse, he gave chase one last time, determined to return with proof of his successful hunt, or die trying. His vision led him down into a dark crevice. His tired legs and weary eyes could barely follow the large monster. He lost his footing and tumbled down and down and down into the darkness of unconsciousness.
When he next awoke, he found that he had stumbled into a hollow world: a warm realm hidden far below the icy mountains. He had unknowingly found his way into Deep Tolguth, a vault of Orv in the lowest levels of the Darklands. The beast he had been following in his delirium was not a mastodon at all, but a triceratops. Its frost giant companions leading it were naught but its three horns!
Lost, Aurun continued following the triceratops to its nest where he found a nearby stream of fresh water and edible flora that grew in abundance. Though the three-horned animals were wary of him at first, in only a few short days he found himself a welcome stranger, as the creatures grew accustomed to his presence. Unable to recall the route he had taken initially, Aurun spent weeks searching for a way out of the vault, which seemed large enough to encompass an entire nation. It also appeared to be lit by a brightly glowing light in the center of its ceiling, two miles off the ground. Aurun observed that the light burned for twelve hours each day before disappearing completely, simulating a day‑night cycle. The cavern’s “night” was not completely dark, however, as the ceiling was also studded with numerous glowing crystals which give off a glow reminiscent of starlight. Its interior terrain consists primarily of jungles, lakes, and swamps, whilst the ground at its perimeter rises like mountain slopes.
In time, Aurun grew fond of the triceratopses, even going out of his way to protect them from predators. One evening he even had to square off with a tyrannosaurus he dubbed “Sharptooth.” Though the carnivore was far too tenacious to be killed by a single dwarf, Aurun nevertheless managed to drive it off by impaling it with the horn of a fallen member of the triceratops herd. It was this brave action that brought the Protectors to him.
The Protectors were a strange group of powerful Orvian druids whose ancestors had long trickled down from all over Golarion. They had lived in Deep Tolguth for many generations, learning to live alongside and protect the many dinosaurs that resided there. Like they had done with hundreds of other wanderers who they found worthy, they would take Aurun into their circle. Through them, he would come to learn how to manipulate Golarion’s natural electromagnetic fields to generate bursts of electricity and to revere the dinosaurs by emulating their physical forms. They also taught him the name of his new home, as well as many of its other secrets, such as knowledge of the warring tribes of primitive humans and orcs that lived in the “mountains.”
Decades passed. Aurun, now known among the Protectors as Traxun Sharptooth, survived many harrowing adventures during that time. Having discovered the route that would return him to the surface long ago, he rejected it in favor of his new home with the druids and their dinosaurs. Despite this decision, he remained the only member of the druid sect with recent knowledge of the surface world, and so he was tasked with protecting his new home from outsiders that might discover the Path and come to threaten their world. Honored to become the order’s new “Path Guardian” Traxun would frequently travel between Deep Tolguth and the surface settlements near the Tusk Mountains, keeping an eye out for possible threats. He also took on the role of a bounty hunter, earning a little gold on the side for when he needed something that Deep Tolguth could not provide.
It was in one such settlement that a messenger bird found him. The message it carried was a coded missive from the order. While he was away hunting people on the surface, intruders had discovered the Path, infiltrated Deep Tolguth, killed several triceratopses, and absconded with their eggs. Fearing that the next generation would be forever lost, the Protectors sentenced Traxun to exile. Unless he could return with the stolen eggs and save the next generation of three-horns, the Path would be forever closed to him.
Having suddenly lost everything he had grown to hold dear in his life, Traxun became singularly focused on his new hunt. He tracked his prey through several lands, from port to port, until he was finally able to catch up to and apprehend one of the egg thieves. The interrogation revealed that the adventurers had parted ways a fortnight before, after they had sold the eggs to a wealthy merchant prince heading into the Wall of Heaven mountains for Tian Xia. The merchant, a noble with hair and beard seemingly spun from gold and a lion’s head embroidered upon a luxurious cape, was apparently planning to make a tidy profit off the dinosaur eggs during a grand tournament being held in the eastern empire. Unsure if his new target would be participating in the tournament as a contestant, acting as a sponsor for a team, or filling some other role, Traxun had no other choice but to follow behind and infiltrate the tournament himself in the hopes that he could track down his prize.
Sort of disagree on 'hardly changing the numbers', we're talking about maybe 20% more damage in certain cases. Three damage dealing property runes is comparable to the difference between a non-giant barbarian raging or not. That's definitely pretty meaningful.
I think of it as hardly changing the numbers because to get to the point where the difference is as impactful as a basic damage boosting feature you have to crank it all the way to maximum.
You're talking about a character that ostensibly doesn't use weapons having invested as much into a weapon as a character for whom a weapon is their most important tool, just so they can apply a few extra d6 of damage at the level of game when the spell portion of your damage is something like 2d12+20 and resistances are common enough that you'd need greater property runes to have those dice still matter and you're then talking about whether you spent that 28,435 gp on a potential damage boost from 33 average to 43.5 average or you spent it on a whole array of other things (since that's an apex item level of investment).
And skipping past the actual play experience where the player is going up just a level at a time, finding just an item at a time, budgeting their wealth into what is most useful at the moment... so will likely just not start putting money into handwraps and property runes that will eventually be ever so slightly more than just a drop in a bucket.
You're a wild shape druid. You're burning your subclass and multiple class feats on shaping. Why wouldn't you invest in handwraps to boost your primary damage feature? I can actually see handwraps being a higher priority than an apex item for this sort of PC.
In addition, you're not investing as much as a martial at all. Because you just need potency and property runes, not striking. Given that striking rune makes up the vast bulk of the cost of magic weapons... it's actually cheaper than you're saying. It only costs 2,000 gp for +2 flaming frost handwraps, or 10,500 for +3 flaming frost shock.
Yeah I don't really see "wild shape dedicated characters spends money to be better at their main thing" to be nearly as unrealistic or strange of an idea as thenobledrake seems to be suggesting.
And without further ado, the damage comparison between dragon instinct barbarian (with a d12 weapon) and a wildshaped druid making natural attacks. First, without allowing property runes for wildshape...
Did I mention the whole "blowing wildshape out of the water" thing? At the highest levels, the barbarian is dealing almost 30 more points of damage than wildshape per hit.
Here are the numbers WITH property runes for wildshape...
To continue Calliope's calculations, here's a summary of what I have for attack bonuses for levels 10+. It may be slightly incorrect, but it's based on regular martial (not fighter) + ability boosts + runes vs. wildshape basic bonus for 'best available' form (which is highest rank spell available).
These are wrong. If we make the (nearly universally agreed to, as far as I can tell) assumption that druids benefit from potency runes, then at L10 they get a bonus of +10 (level) +2 (trained) +4 (stat) +2 potency for a +18.
This is HIGHER than the +17 of plant form so they get the +2 status bonus giving them a +20 to hit.
Similarly, at Level 12 their to hit of +22 is higher than 21 and so they get a +24.
And are doing quite competitive damage at 2d10+11 with a 15 ft reach at level 10, 2d10+16 20 ft reach at level 12.
The druidic wild shape +2 status bonus is hard to get but NOT impossible at some selected levels. Even with the most pessimistic assumptions.
Let's assume you have a druid who pumps Str at every opportunity (but still also has maxed out Wis, because, well, druid). We'll also assume they bought the best weapon potency runes money can buy each level.
So you start at 16 Str, boosted to 18 at level 5, boosted to 20 at level 15.
Bear in mind this is a lot of investment, but it represents the absolute maximum you can get with wildshape attack bonus. Also bear in mind you can't benefit from heroism or other status bonuses (like from inspire courage, the bard cantrip) to hit.
So yes, a wildshaped druid CAN get the same attack bonus as a martial. They will still lag the martial in damage, though.
Let's assume you have a druid who pumps Str at every opportunity (but still also has maxed out Wis, because, well, druid)...
Yeah you can get one more point bonus to attack and damage if you go STR/WIS instead of WIS/STR. Obviously not the best option if you plan on casting attack and debuff spells, but if you are going all-in on "always work" spells like your polymorph spells, then it should work? Wouldn't be my first choice, but different players, different choices.
Let's assume you have a druid who pumps Str at every opportunity (but still also has maxed out Wis, because, well, druid)...
Yeah you can get one more point bonus to attack and damage if you go STR/WIS instead of WIS/STR. Obviously not the best option if you plan on casting attack and debuff spells, but if you are going all-in on "always work" spells like your polymorph spells, then it should work? Wouldn't be my first choice, but different players, different choices.
No you can't actually. Because you can't put Strength as your class primary.
Yeah I don't really see "wild shape dedicated characters spends money to be better at their main thing" to be nearly as unrealistic or strange of an idea as thenobledrake seems to be suggesting.
You're both misunderstanding what I said.
To phrase it differently: If you build a high-level character it makes sense to grab that +3 handwrap and those damaging property runes... but if you're playing up from level 1 you're not going straight into "now I get a meaningful amount of bonus damage", you're looking at choices like spending your 35 gp on an item that is going to do next to nothing for you until you eventually get another 500 gp item some number of levels later, or spending your 35 gp on something you can actually use now and when you get to that 500 gp later spending that on something else that is also useful.
So eventually you have a whole pile of diverse and useful items, not the amount of cash that would enable you to buy the now available increase to your already-good-enough damage.
Potency runes figure into the "your own attack bonus" part, but property runes are something I don't think are intended to be applied to battle forms just like they aren't actually an assumed (meaning mandatory to not feel below benchmark) part of a martial character's kit.
It'd be great to have Paizo clarify if property runes were constant effects... but it's also one of those things where whether you allow them or not you're hardly changing the numbers enough for it to cause an issue so it's fine to let it be a point of table variance even though it's mildly annoying.
Even if they're clarified as being constant effects it wouldn't matter. Damage is a statistic, and as runes aren't actually a bonus supported by polymorph they wouldn't apply anyway.
GM's are free to run differently, obviously, but RAW they wouldn't appear to work.
I don't think it's really correct to say "the rules are clear" when it's something people have been having trouble with for years, with conflicting developer statements and a lack of rules specificity. Instead of running cover with statements like that, better to just encourage Paizo to try to get a real answer eventually.
thenobledrake wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Yeah I don't really see "wild shape dedicated characters spends money to be better at their main thing" to be nearly as unrealistic or strange of an idea as thenobledrake seems to be suggesting.
You're both misunderstanding what I said.
To phrase it differently: If you build a high-level character it makes sense to grab that +3 handwrap and those damaging property runes... but if you're playing up from level 1 you're not going straight into "now I get a meaningful amount of bonus damage", you're looking at choices like spending your 35 gp on an item that is going to do next to nothing for you until you eventually get another 500 gp item some number of levels later, or spending your 35 gp on something you can actually use now and when you get to that 500 gp later spending that on something else that is also useful.
So eventually you have a whole pile of diverse and useful items, not the amount of cash that would enable you to buy the now available increase to your already-good-enough damage.
Do you simply never give your players access to gold or markets in your games? Again, "We got some treasure from this last adventure and so I'm going to buy a rune for my weapon" is not a particularly strange or outlandish experience.
Do you simply never give your players access to gold or markets in your games? Again, "We got some treasure from this last adventure and so I'm going to buy a rune for my weapon" is not a particularly strange or outlandish experience.
At this point i am beginning to think you're deliberately not understanding me.
Yes, obviously I have characters find treasure in campaigns, how the heck else would I have been talking about a character having some money they could potentially buy handwraps with?
But gaining treasure and spending treasure doesn't happen in a vacuum and this moment you're talking about where a player says "I'm gonna buy a thing" does not always happen in the exact moment that the player would choose a damage boost because that's often not just "oh look, the merchant has +3 flaming frost shock handwraps on the shelf", it's a series of choices between a thing you can use currently and a thing that will be of benefit eventually, followed by the choice between keeping some useful items you already have and selling them to boost your damage.
...because that's often not just "oh look, the merchant has +3 flaming frost shock handwraps on the shelf"
Well, common things should be common. Agreed? Not available-at-every-inn-in-the-wilderness common, but certainly can-find-it-during-any-downtime-in-a-reasonably-sized-city. Right?
Quote:
it's a series of choices between a thing you can use currently and a thing that will be of benefit eventually, followed by the choice between keeping some useful items you already have and selling them to boost your damage.
I get what you're saying, but I think a wild shape druid who sees their shapeshifting as their primary combat strategy and decides to use their own attack value can be expected to invest in this. You said earlier (paraphrasing) that we shouldn't expect a non-weapon user to prioritize buying magical weapons as highly as weapon users. But to such a druid, their shapeshifting IS like a weapon, and it's their primary, 'use for every strike in every battle' weapon to boot. So absolutely, it makes sense to think they are going to buff that weapon up with runes. I expect that the devs considered that when setting the attack and damage rates.
Now, for a primal sorcerer or witch that occasionally throws on dragon form because it's fun, but who mostly handles combats via spellcasting, yeah, you're probably right. Or the PC who uses shapeshifting for sneakiness, transportation, scouting, etc. All those sorts of PCs are likely content to just stick with the fixed attack value rather than their own, and so they probably wouldn't bother investing in handwraps.
Do you simply never give your players access to gold or markets in your games? Again, "We got some treasure from this last adventure and so I'm going to buy a rune for my weapon" is not a particularly strange or outlandish experience.
At this point i am beginning to think you're deliberately not understanding me.
Yes, obviously I have characters find treasure in campaigns, how the heck else would I have been talking about a character having some money they could potentially buy handwraps with?
But gaining treasure and spending treasure doesn't happen in a vacuum and this moment you're talking about where a player says "I'm gonna buy a thing" does not always happen in the exact moment that the player would choose a damage boost because that's often not just "oh look, the merchant has +3 flaming frost shock handwraps on the shelf", it's a series of choices between a thing you can use currently and a thing that will be of benefit eventually, followed by the choice between keeping some useful items you already have and selling them to boost your damage.
I fail to see how this is different from literally any other martial buying and upgrading their weapon? What is unique or special here for druids?
I fail to see how this is different from literally any other martial buying and upgrading their weapon? What is unique or special here for druids?
Its a lower priority for a druid than another martial.
And using your own to hit modifier only applies to some levels (exactly which levels depends partly on how the GM interprets some things). So sometimes you might delay buying a potency rune.
For example, assuming the GM rules that greater MEANS greater then a +1 potency rune isn't of huge use to a druid until they hit level 4 (unless they have some other natural attack).
I fail to see how this is different from literally any other martial buying and upgrading their weapon? What is unique or special here for druids?
Its a lower priority for a druid than another martial.
And using your own to hit modifier only applies to some levels (exactly which levels depends partly on how the GM interprets some things). So sometimes you might delay buying a potency rune.
For example, assuming the GM rules that greater MEANS greater then a +1 potency rune isn't of huge use to a druid until they hit level 4 (unless they have some other natural attack).
...yes?
But it's not like it's HARDER for druids? That's your choice. And if you want property runes and if they work on wildshape damage, you can totally choose to buy them whenever you want.
thenobledrake seemed to be implying that you can't buy items whenever you want. Which is totally fair, but I'm not sure why it doesn't equally apply to fighters as druids.
At this point i am beginning to think you're deliberately not understanding me.
Not deliberately, no, but I genuinely do not see anything resembling a reason this is somehow improbable or strange in your post.
Quote:
"oh look, the merchant has +3 flaming frost shock handwraps on the shelf"
Why would it be all at once at level 16?
Like, oh hey, I want to do more damage so I buy a flaming rune. Then, at some point in the future maybe I buy another type of rune too. Not only is this fairly straight forward, it's the same situation anyone else who's interested in focusing on strikes is.
state of animal companion and wildshape are always pretty sad in 2e
entire wildshape feat pool should have their own archetype so player can finally use them effectively through 1 to 20 as martial
maybe even throw in those few good summoner feat that allow pc to use creature action like grab knockdown and push
I've been trying to make an Eidolon into a utahraptor for a while now and it just doesn't really work. A dedicated martial who puts their power into their pet would be nice. Animal companions are fine where they are when they combine themselves with full druid spellcasting or a martial like the ranger with their hunter's edge. I'd like a martial that is normal martial proficiency progression but with no extra damage ability but instead an eidolon equivalent that I could make into an ambush predator that grapples/pins down its prey and rapidly slashes it with its big ol raptor claws, and it grappling and pinning dudes setting up an arrow shot or two from your own character
state of animal companion and wildshape are always pretty sad in 2e
entire wildshape feat pool should have their own archetype so player can finally use them effectively through 1 to 20 as martial
maybe even throw in those few good summoner feat that allow pc to use creature action like grab knockdown and push
I've been trying to make an Eidolon into a utahraptor for a while now and it just doesn't really work. A dedicated martial who puts their power into their pet would be nice. Animal companions are fine where they are when they combine themselves with full druid spellcasting or a martial like the ranger with their hunter's edge. I'd like a martial that is normal martial proficiency progression but with no extra damage ability but instead an eidolon equivalent that I could make into an ambush predator that grapples/pins down its prey and rapidly slashes it with its big ol raptor claws, and it grappling and pinning dudes setting up an arrow shot or two from your own character
Well that's unfortunate
I admit that I've also been looking for something that is basically "you play a monster". Hopefully at some point there will be archetypes similar to the undead ones for other creatures like fey, dragons, or demons.
state of animal companion and wildshape are always pretty sad in 2e
entire wildshape feat pool should have their own archetype so player can finally use them effectively through 1 to 20 as martial
maybe even throw in those few good summoner feat that allow pc to use creature action like grab knockdown and push
That is a significant exaggeration.
Even with the current massive ambiguity, wild shape is a very viable option to have in your tool box. Both for druids and for martials.
It is NOT meant to be equivalent to a martial doing their thing. Its meant to add flavour and flexibility. And it does exactly that very, very well.
For the low cost of 2 feats a martial can function effectively (NOT optimally, but effectively) underwater when necessary. They can scale walls. They can scent out invisible opponents. They can get a move speed of 50.
state of animal companion and wildshape are always pretty sad in 2e
entire wildshape feat pool should have their own archetype so player can finally use them effectively through 1 to 20 as martial
maybe even throw in those few good summoner feat that allow pc to use creature action like grab knockdown and push
I've been trying to make an Eidolon into a utahraptor for a while now and it just doesn't really work. A dedicated martial who puts their power into their pet would be nice. Animal companions are fine where they are when they combine themselves with full druid spellcasting or a martial like the ranger with their hunter's edge. I'd like a martial that is normal martial proficiency progression but with no extra damage ability but instead an eidolon equivalent that I could make into an ambush predator that grapples/pins down its prey and rapidly slashes it with its big ol raptor claws, and it grappling and pinning dudes setting up an arrow shot or two from your own character
thenobledrake seemed to be implying that you can't buy items whenever you want.
No, I'm not. Not even a little bit.
Of course, there is a bit of a caveat there because I mentioned that you might not find exactly what you're looking for just sitting on a shelf. The rules lay out when and where you could find something, though... it's just not anything in any major city with just the 1 day spent looking. Settlement level factors, as does the intuitive logic that even if all the parts you're looking at for a multi-part item are common and within the bounds of what the settlement can get that does not mean that your desired combination is pre-assembled and waiting so you may have to put extra time and potentially money into getting it put together.
Calliope5431 wrote:
Which is totally fair, but I'm not sure why it doesn't equally apply to fighters as druids.
Paul nailed it; it's about priorities.
There are choices being made, priorities differing, and more to the game than just damage, such that while a fighter likely has their main weapon kitted out as a high priority (though even then potentially not with energy damage runes), a druid - even a battle form focused on - likely has other priorities, especially since there are entire categories of item that a fighter can't use but a druid can (since, in my experience at least, players tend to lean into whatever is actually unique to their current build of character).
My entire point this whole time has been that I viewed property runes that add damage to an attack as a thing people are often going to not have because when presented with the choice of "do you want this, or do you want that?" the choices they make will lead to results other than doing a small amount more damage.
