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Squiggit wrote: Why would it be all at once at level 16? It wouldn't was the point I was making.
Squiggit wrote: Like, oh hey, I want to do more damage so I buy a flaming rune. So then you have a flaming rune and no handwraps to put it on, because earlier your choice for spending your money was an item with an immediate benefit you were going to make regular use of, not an item with the future benefit of letting you etch a flaming rune on it that you were going to use sporadically at best until then.
My point was that because it's not typically an all at once choice, the character has likely made other choices, especially give than they were more directly beneficial at the time the choices were made.
Saving your money and going without items or buying items explicitly based on a plan that comes online much later is just not, in my experience, as likely as picking stuff that is useful and affordable now.
thenobledrake wrote: Squiggit wrote: Why would it be all at once at level 16? It wouldn't was the point I was making.
Squiggit wrote: Like, oh hey, I want to do more damage so I buy a flaming rune. So then you have a flaming rune and no handwraps to put it on, because earlier your choice for spending your money was an item with an immediate benefit you were going to make regular use of, not an item with the future benefit of letting you etch a flaming rune on it that you were going to use sporadically at best until then.
My point was that because it's not typically an all at once choice, the character has likely made other choices, especially give than they were more directly beneficial at the time the choices were made.
Saving your money and going without items or buying items explicitly based on a plan that comes online much later is just not, in my experience, as likely as picking stuff that is useful and affordable now. Like what? Because this is literally talking about a specific build. Not someone deciding maybe I'll do this later but actively choosing to build around wildshape. So why on earth wouldn't their build plan factor handwraps, potency and property runes at the appropriate points?
Mkay.
We're talking past each other.
My point is that if you are in town buying runes for the fighter, I fail to see why you cannot buy some for the druid. Unless you're saying that towns have a highly limited supply of runes, which isn't the default and honestly hoses your party martials way more.
Now, if you have no martials, then it is an extra expenditure of effort (and crafting) for the party to buy a rune for the druid and add it to their handwraps. However, that is an excessively rare situation.
A fighter has to make the exact same build choices as you do. They have to plan their purchases. They have to buy property runes. They have to craft their runes onto their swords (or ask the wizard to do it). The crafting and purchasing infrastructure is already there. And if it's not, it's not there for the martials and they should not have property runes in the comparison either.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
thenobledrake wrote: So then you have a flaming rune and no handwraps to put it on Adding handwraps turns a 500 gp purchase into a 535 gp purchase. You're really overstating how much of a barrier this is.
pauljathome wrote: It is NOT meant to be equivalent to a martial doing their thing. Its meant to add flavour and flexibility. And it does exactly that very, very well.
While I agree, and generally think wild shape's numbers are decent as is, it does kind of gloss over the bigger problem with battle forms, which is more about usability and thematics.
Mandatory size increases means sometimes you can't access your gimmick if an encounter isn't sized conveniently.
Awkward scaling and limited heightening means that 'thematic' builds lose because they'll eventually scale out of the thing they want, and that there are some weird level spots where numbers or options feel out of line.
In totality (and combined with some of the ambiguous rules text we're still waiting to see clarifications on) it can lead to wildshape sometimes feeling worse than it actually is in a purely utilitarian sense.
... Which to be honest is sort of the story of PF2 in general, it's very much a pragmatist's game.
It's not that it's 500 gp or 535 gp that is the barrier - the choice is the barrier, and the choice is whether you would rather have the things that lead to some extra damage or a whole other capability relevant to the campaign your own (like a cold energy robe or a wand for something non-combat-related).
It's not overstating the barrier to merely be saying it exists because the player has limited wealth and also isn't just making a singular choice, they are making numerous choices along the way and those all have to line up in a particular way to produce what other people were presenting as a singular choice.
And as for the "why wouldn't their build plan favor these runes?" question I can't believe I have to say this: because there's all kinds of stuff to do in the game that is important that isn't doing a little bit more damage.
Yes, someone could choose to go for a +1 handwrap instead of a wand, a flaming rune instead of some kind of magic cloak, an upgrade to +2 instead of a wand, another energy damage rune instead of a handful of consumables, so on and so forth. My point was never that they couldn't, it was that I don't see that as probable because other choices have more immediate and more dramatic benefits.
It seems like everyone else wants to act like I'm saying a player wouldn't choose +10 average damage, when what I'm actually saying is that a player is likely to not plan so far ahead as to choose that +10 average damage at the points along the way where it's actually more like "do you want a +1 to rolls you aren't currently making with any regularity, or do you want a hat that helps you hide from your enemies while you're doing business in the city this campaign is focused on?" so they'll likely never end up at "+10 damage or not?" because it will be "you can have +10 average damage if you give up half your inventory list of cool magical stuff you use all the time."
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I expanded on my spread sheet to show the DPR, Attack Modifier, Damage Modifier, etc. for the best druid form at every level and non-fighter martial with no class features/feats at every level. The summary of the DPR calculation in on the DPR tab in COL C for moderate ACs (top table) and High AC (lower table). Note, there are some persistent damage attacks for certain forms (these weren't considered).
Key takeaways are that the druid has only two levels (level 9 and 11) where they can use plant shape (since it has a worse attack bonus so they can get the +2 status bonus to hit to bump DPR) where DPR is higher than the 'genirco non-fighter martial'. You'll still be behind when class feats and features are input, but these two levels are probably okay.
They have 4-5 levels across 20 where they are at a <15% difference from the generic martial construct. I'd expect it jumps another 15-30% ish when you factor in feat support, class features like rage, etc.). These are levels that are IMO 'maybe okay' since its on a full caster and now they have a weird mediocre martial 'versatility' option. I don't think it will be fun to play based on your abilities, but the 'I transform into a huge sized w/e will probably carry it'.
They have 8-9 levels across 20 where they are 15%<x<30% difference from the generic martial construct. This is a threshold for what I'd consider 'not worth it' because any in class features/feats will really jump this gap another ~15-30% at least. So why are we wasting our best spell slots/actions to be outputting 50% of the DPR of a martial? Intuitively I'd think there has to be something better/more effective we can do with our spell slots and turns.
They have 3 levels across 20 where they are >30% difference from the generic martial construct. These are essentially a no-go for me.
The big problem with all that is that there is still some unknown amount of DPR (I'd guess 15-30%) that druids are leaving on the table vs. a martial with class feats/features. To achieve this 'mediocre result' the druid has to pick a subclass, take 5 of 8 class feats that expand their wildshape ability to get the result, keep up to date their handwraps (just the +1/+2/+3 fundamental runes), figure out how they shift into ever increasing sized forms, and use they're apex item on STR (or lose DPR at L18 only, which IMO is worth it lol to avoid that issue).
I don't think giving them some damage runes will significantly move the needle, so as a GM I'd allow it. Overall it isn't as bad a treatment as summons got from PF1e to PF2e, but I personally won't be building a wildshape druid given these values. I think a lot of what might carry it for people is the 'wow factor' of turning into a dragon with a breath weapon or similair. Also some of the forms do have other little effects (mostly at higher level). But by those levels your spells will be doing some very awesome things in terms of mass debuffs/buffs.
Again these are just a very limited analysis of single MAP=0 strike data. Normally I'd work up something in the community tool with graphs and full round or multi round DPR, but the tool is not well set-up to deal with the wildshape spells and having to do the probability calculations the hard ways is time consuming/sucks. Without proof I'd state that these DPR % differences will get worse when we consider multiple turns and multiple strikes because the druid class has no in class support to reduce MAP (most of the agile strikes in forms are significantly reduced damage vs. the biggest damage dice) or action compression feats that enable a higher likelihood of getting 3 or 4 strikes off in a round and/or piling up on your MAP=0 attack (e.g., power attack).
Overall I'd shelve the wildshape druid to some future dual class game that I probably will never get to play.
thenobledrake wrote: It's not that it's 500 gp or 535 gp that is the barrier - the choice is the barrier, and the choice is whether you would rather have the things that lead to some extra damage or a whole other capability relevant to the campaign your own (like a cold energy robe or a wand for something non-combat-related).
It's not overstating the barrier to merely be saying it exists because the player has limited wealth and also isn't just making a singular choice, they are making numerous choices along the way and those all have to line up in a particular way to produce what other people were presenting as a singular choice.
And as for the "why wouldn't their build plan favor these runes?" question I can't believe I have to say this: because there's all kinds of stuff to do in the game that is important that isn't doing a little bit more damage.
Yes, someone could choose to go for a +1 handwrap instead of a wand, a flaming rune instead of some kind of magic cloak, an upgrade to +2 instead of a wand, another energy damage rune instead of a handful of consumables, so on and so forth. My point was never that they couldn't, it was that I don't see that as probable because other choices have more immediate and more dramatic benefits.
It seems like everyone else wants to act like I'm saying a player wouldn't choose +10 average damage, when what I'm actually saying is that a player is likely to not plan so far ahead as to choose that +10 average damage at the points along the way where it's actually more like "do you want a +1 to rolls you aren't currently making with any regularity, or do you want a hat that helps you hide from your enemies while you're doing business in the city this campaign is focused on?" so they'll likely never end up at "+10 damage or not?" because it will be "you can have +10 average damage if you give up half your inventory list of cool magical stuff you use all the time."
I mean. +1 potency is dirt cheap by the time you're considering property runes like flaming. Buying +1 flaming is as easy as buying just flaming. No planning required there.
As for competition... I mean yeah. Of course there's other options. But if I'm playing a wild shape druid, I'm going to look for things that boost wild shape. If my GM tells me "you can add flaming to wild shape" I'll probably start saving up for flaming runes.
Just like a wizard would start saving up for a cool staff.
thenobledrake wrote: It's not that it's 500 gp or 535 gp that is the barrier - the choice is the barrier, and the choice is whether you would rather have the things that lead to some extra damage or a whole other capability relevant to the campaign your own (like a cold energy robe or a wand for something non-combat-related).
It's not overstating the barrier to merely be saying it exists because the player has limited wealth and also isn't just making a singular choice, they are making numerous choices along the way and those all have to line up in a particular way to produce what other people were presenting as a singular choice.
And as for the "why wouldn't their build plan favor these runes?" question I can't believe I have to say this: because there's all kinds of stuff to do in the game that is important that isn't doing a little bit more damage.
Yes, someone could choose to go for a +1 handwrap instead of a wand, a flaming rune instead of some kind of magic cloak, an upgrade to +2 instead of a wand, another energy damage rune instead of a handful of consumables, so on and so forth. My point was never that they couldn't, it was that I don't see that as probable because other choices have more immediate and more dramatic benefits.
It seems like everyone else wants to act like I'm saying a player wouldn't choose +10 average damage, when what I'm actually saying is that a player is likely to not plan so far ahead as to choose that +10 average damage at the points along the way where it's actually more like "do you want a +1 to rolls you aren't currently making with any regularity, or do you want a hat that helps you hide from your enemies while you're doing business in the city this campaign is focused on?" so they'll likely never end up at "+10 damage or not?" because it will be "you can have +10 average damage if you give up half your inventory list of cool magical stuff you use all the time."
And you blatantly keep ignoring the fact that this is for a specific build. So again if this is the build you are going for why wouldn't you planning for getting those runes. We aren't talking about a regular druid who is considering using wildshape on an occasion here and there. But one is very intentionally building around wildshape as their main gimmick. So again why wouldn't those be the things you focus on and save up for?
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Now with a seperate sheet that includes the impact of property runes gained at L8, L10, and L16).
L1-8 is still rough. But L9-L20 shifts everything to the green/yellow zone that would make a wildshape build even worth it. So yeah, as a GM I'd absolutely be letting druids add property runes onto their stuff. The only levels where they pull ahead a bit too much is L11 and L12 (before martials get the +2 for master weapon proficiency). So in those cases maybe you could allow that second damage rune to only turn on at L13 if you were worried about DPR in an non-optimized campaign/group.
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As someone playing a Druid with Wild Shape at level 12, I can confirm that getting Handwraps with relevant property runes would have been one of my highest priorities if I planned on using Wild Shape as my primary combat mode. However, I'm primary healer secondary blaster, so Wild Shape is a tertiary combat mode--and I'm still looking at getting (cheap) Handwraps with (lower level) property runes once I free up my hands by shifting my Medicine item bonus from Healer's Gloves to Marvelous Medicines.
Riddlyn wrote: So again why wouldn't those be the things you focus on and save up for? This is, to me, like asking why a fighter would ever invest in anything that applies outside of the combat section of the game.
And as far as "blatantly keep ignoring" let me just point out I already said; there's more to care about that damage. That's it. That is why even a build focused on using battle forms for combat might make choices to have other stuff besides extra damage - exactly like how even a fighter might pick property runes other than those that add energy damage; because they have enough so getting more is not necessarily a top priority.
If at this point any of you think you still don't understand what I'm saying, or that my "there's more than one way things can go" take is somehow actually an absolutist take that doesn't account for literally all variables... then I'd ask that you keep it to yourseves because I'm not responding to any further psots on the topic of what a character might buy, because I am worn out by how this board manages to take anything that isn't an extreme take and pretend it was anyway. It's literally that old thing about how you can tweet "I like pancakes" and someone will come at you with "why do you hate waffles?!".
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I don't know how you make wild shape damage on par with martial given all the other things they get with wild shape.
As a player of many druids that use wild shape, it has massive utility. You get things like Reach, faster than fly spell flight, breath weapons, no reaction movement, and get a 4d10+11 at around level 13 with earth elemental form. You can fight in nearly every environment in all three dimensions. You can stay in form for an hour or more depending on level of spell. It has massive utility beyond damage.
I don't see how you allow that to do equal damage to a martial as a base level spell. I usually use druid forms to break through walls, in combat against mooks, and against golems if spells don't work. But wild shape combined with druid spellcasting is an absolutely powerhouse combination in PF2.
I can see some kind of shifter concept being in the game that will be more pure martial. But if they do that, no way they work off wild shape. Battle forms are way too powerful to give someone equivalent damage combined with a lot of stuff a martial can't even get.
Only thing I would like with wild shape is the ability to control the form's size. I think it should be an innate part of the spell or at the very least a feat. But given how much damage the form does on top of druid casting and capabilities, a well-played druid is already on par or more powerful than martials. If you ever do an aggregate damage total between a well-played druid and a martial, they likely won't even be close in terms of what they do overall for a group even when it comes to damage.
I don't mean per battle. I mean over the course of an adventure combining all sources of damage from group fights and individual fights. Battle forms allow them to maintain better damage than most casters in single target fights, which allows them to keep up with martial damage better than any caster I've yet played. They do all this while throwing out heals and having massive utility with forms that climb, fly, swim, burrow, and can move at speeds more can't keep up with.
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Pancakes and waffles are both tasty.
pauljathome wrote: AestheticDialectic wrote: 25speedforseaweedleshy wrote: state of animal companion and wildshape are always pretty sad in 2e
entire wildshape feat pool should have their own archetype so player can finally use them effectively through 1 to 20 as martial
maybe even throw in those few good summoner feat that allow pc to use creature action like grab knockdown and push
I've been trying to make an Eidolon into a utahraptor for a while now and it just doesn't really work. A dedicated martial who puts their power into their pet would be nice. Animal companions are fine where they are when they combine themselves with full druid spellcasting or a martial like the ranger with their hunter's edge. I'd like a martial that is normal martial proficiency progression but with no extra damage ability but instead an eidolon equivalent that I could make into an ambush predator that grapples/pins down its prey and rapidly slashes it with its big ol raptor claws, and it grappling and pinning dudes setting up an arrow shot or two from your own character Would a reflavoured inventor work for this? I don't know enough to say if this would work, part of it is I can't have a companion take wrestler style feats
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Deriven Firelion wrote: I don't know how you make wild shape damage on par with martial given all the other things they get with wild shape. I think it is required to be fair to the wildshape druid whose primary gig is wildshape. The discussion is just hard to have as the rules aren't clear and I don't know how you are playing it.
Deriven Firelion wrote: As a player of many druids that use wild shape, it has massive utility. You get things like Reach, faster than fly spell flight, breath weapons, no reaction movement, and get a 4d10+11 at around level 13 with earth elemental form. You can fight in nearly every environment in all three dimensions. You can stay in form for an hour or more depending on level of spell. And it sounds great until you realise it is spend 2 actions, pick one, not all of these at once.
That Earth elemental you talk about is speed 20 and very much an outlier for damage (at level 13/14 only). To the extent that I am surprised it hasn't been errated. The Air Elemental with the no reaction movement has such a weak attack it is barely worth attacking with. The Dragon Form is cute but the AC is low and the damage well down on what a flying caster with a couple of focus spells can do. It is good but it is still a fun choice, more than a power choice.
Deriven Firelion wrote: But wild shape combined with druid spellcasting is an absolutely powerhouse combination in PF2. You keep mentioning this and it is midleading. It is either or. Not both together. A character of the level 13 that you use has access to ancillary magic if they want it. There is not all that much that a Druid can cast and be useful in wild shape, that another martial character can not get. I mean anyone can have a greater invisibility item at this level. Everyone does have Longstrider. Reach is easy to get. Most of these things are secondary abilities you can pick up without being locked into a shape.
Deriven Firelion wrote: I can see some kind of shifter concept being in the game that will be more pure martial. But if they do that, no way they work off wild shape. Battle forms are way too powerful to give someone equivalent damage combined with a lot of stuff a martial can't even get. Yes I would like to see a shifter or just even a straight up monster class. I would rather it was built as a plain martial. No Battle Forms are not too powerful. Every list gets them. Most casters flat out ignore them. Summoners Eidolons are a bit wierd still. I really wish they would finish off the merged Eidolon and make it worth while.
Deriven Firelion wrote: thing I would like with wild shape is the ability to control the form's size. Agreed.
Gortle wrote: Deriven Firelion wrote: I don't know how you make wild shape damage on par with martial given all the other things they get with wild shape. I think it is required to be fair to the wildshape druid whose primary gig is wildshape. The discussion is just hard to have as the rules aren't clear and I don't know how you are playing it.
Deriven Firelion wrote: As a player of many druids that use wild shape, it has massive utility. You get things like Reach, faster than fly spell flight, breath weapons, no reaction movement, and get a 4d10+11 at around level 13 with earth elemental form. You can fight in nearly every environment in all three dimensions. You can stay in form for an hour or more depending on level of spell. And it sounds great until you realise it is spend 2 actions, pick one, not all of these at once.
That Earth elemental you talk about is speed 20 and very much an outlier for damage (at level 13/14 only). To the extent that I am surprised it hasn't been errated. The Air Elemental with the no reaction movement has such a weak attack it is barely worth attacking with. The Dragon Form is cute but the AC is low and the damage well down on what a flying caster with a couple of focus spells can do. It is good but it is still a fun choice, more than a power choice.
Deriven Firelion wrote: But wild shape combined with druid spellcasting is an absolutely powerhouse combination in PF2. You keep mentioning this and it is midleading. It is either or. Not both together. A character of the level 13 that you use has access to ancillary magic if they want it. There is not all that much that a Druid can cast and be useful in wild shape, that another martial character can not get. I mean anyone can have a greater invisibility item at this level. Everyone does have Longstrider. Reach is easy to get. Most of these things are secondary abilities you can pick up without being locked into a shape.
Deriven Firelion wrote: I can see some kind of shifter concept being in ... I stated aggregate damage over several fights a druid very much holds their own or exceeds a martial. Battle form helps with single target and then AoE spells and casting with a weapon for mook fights. The amount they deal is on par or exceeds martials in a group. I've tracked this and they consistently equal or exceed martial damage due to multiple damage sources in use. This is often not talked about with martials is their damage is pretty straightforward and tied to their weapon, while caster damage is varied and can come from multiple sources increasing as you level.
How do I run battle forms absent house rules or clear rulings?
1. I allow specialization damage to add to the damage. Started doing this after one of the designers (I think Seifter) said he thought untyped damage like specialization would add to unarmed damage from a battle form.
2. I use the full unarmed attack bonus including item bonuses when comparing versus the battle form attack bonus to gain the druid wild shape status bonus. Nowhere in the rules does it say to use unarmed attack bonus absent items. It just says unarmed attack bonus, which I view as adding everything that isn't temporary such as from a buff.
3. I allow untyped damage like barbarian rage or sneak attack if the extra damage works with an unarmed attack of the battle form.
4. I do not allow property runes to add to the damage.
5. I allow skill actions like trip or grapple in battle forms. I allowed this before the errata. Absolutely ridiculous a dragon or bear can't trip or grapple. Not going to let balance trump verisimilitude.
6. I allow battle forms to speak if they could as a normal member of their type.
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Sooo... all this back-and-forth and the conclusion is, Battle forms (who are mainly a caster thing) don't allow casters to make martials obsolete again. And even for martials, who get access somehow, they are at best a sidegrade.
In other words, they are exactly where they need to be.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Gortle wrote: And it sounds great until you realise it is spend 2 actions, pick one, not all of these at once. TBH this I think is one of the bigger issues in practice.
Since it's casting a spell, your first turn every combat is basically nothing (like wild shape + stride).. which can hurt really bad when a lot of AP and scenario play encounters tend to be really short.
Deriven Firelion wrote: How do I run battle forms absent house rules or clear rulings?
1. I allow specialization damage to add to the damage. Started doing this after one of the designers (I think Seifter) said he thought untyped damage like specialization would add to unarmed damage from a battle form.
2. I use the full unarmed attack bonus including item bonuses when comparing versus the battle form attack bonus to gain the druid wild shape status bonus. Nowhere in the rules does it say to use unarmed attack bonus absent items. It just says unarmed attack bonus, which I view as adding everything that isn't temporary such as from a buff.
3. I allow untyped damage like barbarian rage or sneak attack if the extra damage works with an unarmed attack of the battle form.
4. I do not allow property runes to add to the damage.
5. I allow skill actions like trip or grapple in battle forms. I allowed this before the errata. Absolutely ridiculous a dragon or bear can't trip or grapple. Not going to let balance trump verisimilitude.
6. I allow battle forms to speak if they could as a normal member of their type.
2 is correct there was a How it is played video with MS that confirmed it.
I allow battle forms to speak always (never spells) but that is just me.
1,3,4 are debatable. People are all over the place on them. My opinion on them has moved around a bit. But if you accept that additional damage adds, (which MS has stated but not in this context) then they are all allowed.
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