Adamantine Dagger


Rules Discussion

Grand Lodge

I have had great success with Needle Darts.
I have a Cold Iron dagger, and a Silver Dagger.
But, for some reason Adamantine confuses me a little, mostly because it is much more expensive.
I guess what I want to know is how much for an Adamantine dagger?
A standard-grade adamantine object; Level 8; Price 350 gp per Bulk.
A dagger is Light. Is it 1/10th the cost plus the cost of a regular dagger?

Help me out oh wise ones.


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Precious Materials, Core Rulebook pg. 577

"The Price entry for each material gives the Price of a simple non-magical item made of that material, based on its Bulk (if the item is lighter than 1 Bulk, use the price for 1 Bulk), as well as Prices for different amounts of the material itself."

However, a dagger is a weapon: Adamantine Weapon
Item 11+
Uncommon
Core Rulebook pg. 599
Price 1,400 gp (+140 gp per Bulk)

So if you want an Adamantine dagger, it's 1540 gp. Now if you want an adamantine letter opener, that's 350gp.

Now in the new GM core pg. 253, "The Price entry for each material gives the Price of a simple non-magical item made of that material, based on its Bulk (if the item is lighter than 1 Bulk, use the price for 1 Bulk), as well as Prices for different amounts of the material itself. Prices for armor, shields, and weapons made of precious material are in the Armor (page 228), Shields (page 233), and Weapons (page 240) sections of this chapter."

Going to "Weapons (page 240)"you'll find the same price as core: 1,400 gp + 140 gp per Bulk.


For the case of Needle Dart it dont have to be a weapon, so an object as op describes is fine.

But he wont be able to use if for other Dagger things, like attacking or Witch abilities since it wont be one.

Needle Darts wrote:


You shape three needles out of a piece of metal in your possession and send them flying in a tight group toward one target.

Also im fairly sure that Needle Darts dont fully restore the object you use, it only say that the metal returns, propbly forever in the form of 3 or more needles.

Full description

Needle Darts wrote:


You shape three needles out of a piece of metal in your possession and send them flying in a tight group toward one target. Make a spell attack roll against your target's AC. The needles deal 3d4 piercing damage and might cause bleeding. The needles impart any special properties of the metal that forms them; for instance, cold iron needles deal additional damage to creatures with weakness to cold iron. All the needles are made of the same metal, and the metal returns to you after the attack.


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Nelzy wrote:
Also im fairly sure that Needle Darts dont fully restore the object you use, it only say that the metal returns, propbly forever in the form of 3 or more needles.

The spell doesn't say the base item is damaged, so it isn't.


graystone wrote:
Nelzy wrote:
Also im fairly sure that Needle Darts dont fully restore the object you use, it only say that the metal returns, propbly forever in the form of 3 or more needles.
The spell doesn't say the base item is damaged, so it isn't.

but it dose say that it shape the object into 3 needles, but dont say in what form the metal returns.

and completely transforming something dont realy need any text explaining the item is damage in any way since it dont exist anymore.

Its obvious that they never intended us to use the spell on an item that we want to use normally, since they dont explain clearly what happens to it, they expected us to use a clump of metal and not a metal dagger.


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There's no reason the metal can't just rejoin the object it was borrowed from after returning. The spell doesn't say the metal item is damaged or that you add the needles to your inventory. Just that the needles are made from the same metal and the metal returns after being used by the spell, not the needles

Remember that spells in PF2 do only what they say they do, no more or less. Don't overthink them :)


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Nelzy wrote:
but it dose say that it shape the object into 3 needles, but dont say in what form the metal returns.

Again, it doesn't say the original item is harmed in any way: full stop. Anything after that is a houserule.

Nelzy wrote:
and completely transforming something dont realy need any text explaining the item is damage in any way since it dont exist anymore.

It NEVER says the entire object it turned into needles. In fact it'd be rather silly in some situations like casting from your Fortress Plate [a 5 bulk item] meaning that if the entire item is used, each needle is 1.66 bulk.. I don't see that as intended at all: what it says is it forms needles, they shoot out and "the metal returns to you after the attack" NOT the needles.

Nelzy wrote:
Its obvious that they never intended us to use the spell on an item that we want to use normally, since they dont explain clearly what happens to it, they expected us to use a clump of metal and not a metal dagger.

It's the opposite: unless something is spelled out, it's not in the rules. If they don't explain the item vanishing or being damaged, it isn't. They'd need to clearly spell out the items is broken or destroyed for that to happen.

Liberty's Edge

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All my PFS casters invest in Silver and Cold Iron gauntlets asap now, thanks to Needle Darts.

And no, they are not damaged in any way by casting the cantrip.

Grand Lodge

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The Raven Black wrote:

All my PFS casters invest in Silver and Cold Iron gauntlets asap now, thanks to Needle Darts.

And no, they are not damaged in any way by casting the cantrip.

*Face Palm*

Gauntlets! Of course! So much more practical!
Thanks!


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If a cantrip could just destroy any adamantine item without any check for that I'd assume that it would be mentioned in more detail.

Like, you can't just grab the adamantine artifact and simply reduce it to needles with a cantrip as a level 1 caster (even if it's just by shaving 3 needles at a time out of it)....


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Depending on the character jewelry like think bracelets of exotic materials could be a good source of the needle material. Like a Bard with Brackets and mediations.

Liberty's Edge

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Glimturen Runekeeper wrote:
Depending on the character jewelry like think bracelets of exotic materials could be a good source of the needle material. Like a Bard with Brackets and mediations.

Indeed. But PFS is more restrictive :

"PFS Note Any spells which require metal to function require the PC to be holding at least one chunk of that metal or an item made of that metal."

Horizon Hunters

What about cold iron / silver rings for this cantrip?


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Henry Cabot Lodge wrote:
What about cold iron / silver rings for this cantrip?

If you're asking for PFS I don't think it would fly. You're not "holding" rings.

graystone wrote:
It NEVER says the entire object it turned into needles. In fact it'd be rather silly in some situations like casting from your Fortress Plate [a 5 bulk item] meaning that if the entire item is used, each needle is 1.66 bulk.. I don't see that as intended at all: what it says is it forms needles, they shoot out and "the metal returns to you after the attack" NOT the needles.

I suddenly miss armageddon plate.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
Glimturen Runekeeper wrote:
Depending on the character jewelry like think bracelets of exotic materials could be a good source of the needle material. Like a Bard with Brackets and mediations.

Indeed. But PFS is more restrictive :

"PFS Note Any spells which require metal to function require the PC to be holding at least one chunk of that metal or an item made of that metal."

This is not accurate. The note in the PFS Character Options Page was updated, because it was meant to require possession, not an occupied hand. It now reads: "[UPDATED] Any spells which require metal to function (such as needle darts [page 144]) require the PC to be in possession of at least one chunk of that metal or an item made of that metal."


HammerJack wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Glimturen Runekeeper wrote:
Depending on the character jewelry like think bracelets of exotic materials could be a good source of the needle material. Like a Bard with Brackets and mediations.

Indeed. But PFS is more restrictive :

"PFS Note Any spells which require metal to function require the PC to be holding at least one chunk of that metal or an item made of that metal."

This is not accurate. The note in the PFS Character Options Page was updated, because it was meant to require possession, not an occupied hand. It now reads: "[UPDATED] Any spells which require metal to function (such as needle darts [page 144]) require the PC to be in possession of at least one chunk of that metal or an item made of that metal."

Woah, dang you're right.

I guess they **really** wanted Needle Darts to be the universal baseline crossbow of cantrips?

That's scarcely a contextual requirement at all now.

People were already willing to wear a gauntlet for that cantrip. I kinda wish they did a Slashing Gust and let it throw +1 needle if you were optionally holding the metal or something.

----------------------

TBH, I was really hoping Wizard in the remaster would get an option to burn lower R spell slots to fire some form of enhanced cantrips. Even something as minor as adding a metamagic effect, but without the usual extra action cost or metamagic limitation (like burst must be a min of 10ft before you can Widen).

A bit crude, but there really does need to be more ways to utilize low R slots in combat. True Strike is great and all, but there's disappointingly few low R evergreen spells like it.

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