Edicts and Anathema Incompatible With Adventuring - Call for Help!


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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The Raven Black wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
The anathema of Pharasma against robbing a tomb makes taking loot from undead enemies in a tomb-like dungeon awkward.

More deities with this anathema or similar : Anubis, Ashava.

Anubis, like Gravelady's Guard, Pharasma, Selket and Osiris, also has the anathema of "desecrate a corpse". It should not apply to destroying undead, even if these are corpses in a way.

I wonder if something couldn't be rephrased as "Disturb or disrespect the final disposition of the deceased" Since if the corpse has gotten up and decided to gnaw on you, then they've left their final disposition and are fair game to burn or chop up into pieces or whatever stops them from doing that.

Like it's clear that a Pharasman (etc.) shouldn't be pillaging grave goods of an honored interred individual, but if that person is a mummy or a vampire or whatever, it's fair game. Since the ritual to give the grave goods to the individual for their post-life has obviously failed when they got up and tried to eat you.


The Raven Black wrote:
I know there has been some concern with Lamashtu's anathema of "attempt to treat a mental illness or deformity". What counts as a mental illness or as a deformity ? Who adjudicates this, based on which standard ?

I would assume by the standards of the society or community, just like in real life; those definitions are socially constructed.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Rovagug's anathema against creating something new has sometimes been interpreted as forbidding having children.

I don't see how this is more problematic to adventuring than just being a rovagug cultist.

Liberty's Edge

MEATSHED wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Rovagug's anathema against creating something new has sometimes been interpreted as forbidding having children.
I don't see how this is more problematic to adventuring than just being a rovagug cultist.

Just mentioning something I saw debated on these boards.


Hard to list "Spell that force triggers anathema per deity"


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
The anathema of Pharasma against robbing a tomb makes taking loot from undead enemies in a tomb-like dungeon awkward.

Anubis also has "rob a tomb" as Anathema.


Imbrex's anathema is just "Offend Imbrex."

...how, exactly?


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Bob Evil wrote:

Imbrex's anathema is just "Offend Imbrex."

...how, exactly?

Exactly.


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Bob Evil wrote:

Imbrex's anathema is just "Offend Imbrex."

...how, exactly?

The GM controls all the Gods, especially the Eldest.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Bob Evil wrote:

Imbrex's anathema is just "Offend Imbrex."

...how, exactly?

The GM controls all the Gods, especially the Eldest.

Fair enough, I suppose. As long as the GM is clear about what's offensive to their version of Imbrex.

It seems funny that that could be wildly different things depending on the GM's personal tastes, but I guess that's in line with the Eldest and the whole fae aesthetic.


Bob Evil wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Bob Evil wrote:

Imbrex's anathema is just "Offend Imbrex."

...how, exactly?

The GM controls all the Gods, especially the Eldest.

Fair enough, I suppose. As long as the GM is clear about what's offensive to their version of Imbrex.

It seems funny that that could be wildly different things depending on the GM's personal tastes, but I guess that's in line with the Eldest and the whole fae aesthetic.

From a glance at the wiki, it really seems like worshippers not having a clue what might or might not offend Imbrex is kind of operating as intended. Like, yes, it would be annoying as a player for your GM to declare that you've randomly insulted your god and need to atone, but one would hope you discuss with your GM how to handle following a deity whose edicts basically amount to "do your thing and don't bother me about it, but finish what you started."

Maybe there's some way that could be clearer, but what Imbrex seems to me is a deity with an intentionally flexible code but the upshot is that it also could go wrong at any time.


Yeah, "no one really knows what Imbrex is thinking is a core part of Imbrex's whole deal, and the Anathema is supposed to reflect that. Signing on to be a Cleric of one of the Eldest though is a trust-fall with the GM.


The Raven Black wrote:
Shumunue has an anathema of "permanently damage a plant or wood creature". Many opponents of the plant type and constructs made of wood will be hard to stop without permanently damaging them. Or does killing/destroying them outright not count ?

Nonlethal damage can be healed and constructs generally lack the plant or wood trait. So it should be fine.


Luis Loza wrote:

Hello!

Now that we've finally announced Lost Omens Divine Mysteries, I'm coming to the community for some help. There are a lot of gods in Pathfinder Second Edition and we're doing our best to remaster as many as possible in LODM, bringing their stat blocks up to speed with the updated format and mechanics of the remaster (dropping alignment, adding sanctification, and so on). While I've tried my best to tweak edicts and anathema for gods as part of this, there's surely some I've missed along the way.

What I'm looking for specifically are those edicts and anathemas that make typical adventuring more difficult or nigh impossible, or those that are so vague that ruling from table to table could cause issues.

For example, Qi Zhong used to have an anathema of "Deal lethal damage to another creature (unless as part of a necessary medical treatment)." That sounds fine and all until you run into constructs and undead that are immune to nonlethal damage. What are you supposed to do then? The anathema now specifically calls out dealing damage to living creatures to allow PCs to fight undead without worrying about displeasing Qi Zhong.

I'd love to see any other gods that have edicts and/or anathemas that make adventuring difficult. I can't promise that every god shared here will see changes or even make it into LODM, but I will definitely look every submission to see what can be done about any issues.

Thanks for the help, everyone!

Qi Zhong still seems somewhat problematic. Because Qi Zhong gets mad at clerics who don't have the Nonlethal Spell feat. But unfortunately that feat is wizard-only, and so it makes it really, really hard to be a cleric who casts even a single damaging spell.

Sarenrae's "fail to strike down evil" doesn't just kick you while you're down, it also can be read as forcing you into unwinnable fights against high level monsters when you're not ready for them. That level 20 demon you meet at level 7? You don't want to "fail to strike down evil", but you also don't want to die.

Gorum's "win a battle through underhanded tactics or indirect magic" can include things like "the rogue sneak attacking people" or "the wizard casting fog cloud". Getting penalized for having an enchanter or a rogue in your party seems fairly cruel.

Godclaw's anathema of "rest when there is lawlessness to fight" is somewhat problematic given Resting is a mechanically defined term.

"No you cannot rest and regain spell slots while in bandit country or the Abyss. And there are always bandits SOMEWHERE in the world."

Gravelady's guard "practice necromancy" anathema is just broken now that the remaster exists (what is necromancy? Does healing count?) but prior to the remaster it was horrible, since healing spells were necromancy, so it basically banned you from using your Font.

Shelyn has "fail to accept a surrender" but says nothing about the sincerity of the surrender. This can lead to comedic situations where the monsters totally surrender long enough to heal and then immediately attack you again.

Quote:


Meanwhile, one I found long ago that seemed too difficult to be true belongs to the Cosmic Caravan pantheon. The anathema '(never) spend the night in the same place twice in a row' seems obviously geared toward a wandering traveller theme, but in practice seems impossible to honour. One might honour the letter of the anathema while violating the spirit by simply alternating between inns (or even rooms at the inn with sufficiently split hairs), but if setting a minimum scale on 'place' to honour the spirit, it becomes impossible for the benevolent traveller ever to stop in a town to deal with a plot of any meaningful scale without resorting to unsatisfying tactics.

Yeah +1 to that.


The Raven Black wrote:
Rovagug's anathema against creating something new has sometimes been interpreted as forbidding having children.

I think that depends if you interpret children as having been "begotten" or "made" lol

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

For what it's worth, I hope at least some gods stay incompatible with adventuring. Rovagug's followers may generally be babbling lunatics unable to coordinate anything together--and that's just fine. Perhaps they should be highlighted with a warning, but a GM still has a responsibility to review and vet their players' character choices.


I personally find Angradd's anathema to be a bit... challenging: "Allow weaker evils to survive due to the presence of larger evils" Does this means that if a minion gets away when you're fighting the BBEG, then you've broken anathema? There are few campaign settings that I can think of where evil can be snuffed out completely or all at once. Adventurers, by necessity, need to prioritize (if they didn't, the campaign would have to be a complete railroad and not give choices), and often this is done by prioritizing larger evils to deal with first. I'm not exactly sure how this anathema is supposed to direct such choices? Does a cleric of Angradd take out the lesser evils first? Are they meant to smite anyone with a smattering of evil upon sight? Not to mention, of course, the complication that the Remaster did away with good/evil. Though, I suppose, changing it to Unholy (sanctified) may at least help define what is considered 'evil' when judging lesser evils. But the prioritization is still an issue, because often you can't stop ALL the evil.

Liberty's Edge

DrakeRoberts wrote:
I personally find Angradd's anathema to be a bit... challenging: "Allow weaker evils to survive due to the presence of larger evils" Does this means that if a minion gets away when you're fighting the BBEG, then you've broken anathema? There are few campaign settings that I can think of where evil can be snuffed out completely or all at once. Adventurers, by necessity, need to prioritize (if they didn't, the campaign would have to be a complete railroad and not give choices), and often this is done by prioritizing larger evils to deal with first. I'm not exactly sure how this anathema is supposed to direct such choices? Does a cleric of Angradd take out the lesser evils first? Are they meant to smite anyone with a smattering of evil upon sight? Not to mention, of course, the complication that the Remaster did away with good/evil. Though, I suppose, changing it to Unholy (sanctified) may at least help define what is considered 'evil' when judging lesser evils. But the prioritization is still an issue, because often you can't stop ALL the evil.

I feel Angradd here is a bit like some versions of Marvel's Punisher. He might let the small fish escape when taking down the big sharks but he WILL come after them later.

The classic plot of bargaining with the weaker evil to let them go in order to get their help to fight the larger evil just does not work with Angradd's faithful.

Note though that the anathema is talking about evils and not evil creatures. People who actually change their ways to non-evil need not fear Angradd.

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