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Buddy of mine was wanting to play a thassalonian rune mage, and I was like...whelp, the closest I can think of off the top of my head is the Runelord class archetype.
The buddy then goes, well, when the new content comes out for ORC, I can't specialize in a school that isnt divination right? So here we go to the forums! What do you guys think might happen to the requirements or if it will just be unavailable after the ORC?
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Runelords are one of the most iconic Pathfinder things so there's a good chance they might either issue errata or reprint it in a new form in some other future source - I believe an idea was tossed out that the archetype would be rejigged to lean into the sins the schools were based on (pride instead of illusion, wrath instead of evocation, etc.).
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Yeah, Runelord will take a bit of work to get functional properly post remaster.
A couple of things will need to happen:
1) Sin schools will need to be decoupled from their old school and probably redesigned to work like the new Wizard schools in general. Each sin school would need to grant its own spells.
2) The penalty would need to be reworked, where 2 other schools (and their particular lists) get banned. This would actually be a buff to the runelord, as removing under 40 spells is much less of an impact than removing 2 entire school was.
3) The refocus ability migth need tweaked for the new focus spell options.
The 7 sin schools could be a chance for Paizo to do something really interesting with the new Wizard. Since they could add more powerful spells, knowing they can control the other options on the list to ban particular options outright. It means they could craft some very interesting options here.
Creative Director
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When the time is right, we'll produce remastered information from a rules AND lore perspective for runelords, both the PC option and the in-world villains. That time is not in any of the Player Core or GM Core books, and is thus not going to be a "day 1" update. We'll get there eventually, but in the meantime, if you build a runelord using the pre-remastered rules, they'll still play fine side by side in your home game with any remastered content. It's still 2nd Edition Pathfinder. (That said, if you want your runelord PC to prepare remastered spells, you as the player and your GM will have to make some judgement calls as to what spells are in what schools in the short term.)
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When the time is right, we'll produce remastered information from a rules AND lore perspective for runelords, both the PC option and the in-world villains. That time is not in any of the Player Core or GM Core books, and is thus not going to be a "day 1" update. We'll get there eventually, but in the meantime, if you build a runelord using the pre-remastered rules, they'll still play fine side by side in your home game with any remastered content. It's still 2nd Edition Pathfinder. (That said, if you want your runelord PC to prepare remastered spells, you as the player and your GM will have to make some judgement calls as to what spells are in what schools in the short term.)
I think this will happen when a peacock approaches.
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When the time is right, we'll produce remastered information from a rules AND lore perspective for runelords, both the PC option and the in-world villains. That time is not in any of the Player Core or GM Core books, and is thus not going to be a "day 1" update. We'll get there eventually, but in the meantime, if you build a runelord using the pre-remastered rules, they'll still play fine side by side in your home game with any remastered content. It's still 2nd Edition Pathfinder. (That said, if you want your runelord PC to prepare remastered spells, you as the player and your GM will have to make some judgement calls as to what spells are in what schools in the short term.)I think this will happen when a peacock approaches.He is on the cover for a remaster book...
And thanks as always to James for chiming in
Maybe it's a Mirage...
Maybe it's a Mirage...When the time is right, we'll produce remastered information from a rules AND lore perspective for runelords, both the PC option and the in-world villains. That time is not in any of the Player Core or GM Core books, and is thus not going to be a "day 1" update. We'll get there eventually, but in the meantime, if you build a runelord using the pre-remastered rules, they'll still play fine side by side in your home game with any remastered content. It's still 2nd Edition Pathfinder. (That said, if you want your runelord PC to prepare remastered spells, you as the player and your GM will have to make some judgement calls as to what spells are in what schools in the short term.)I think this will happen when a peacock approaches.He is on the cover for a remaster book...
And thanks as always to James for chiming in
James or Xanderghul?
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James or Xanderghul?Maybe it's a Mirage...When the time is right, we'll produce remastered information from a rules AND lore perspective for runelords, both the PC option and the in-world villains. That time is not in any of the Player Core or GM Core books, and is thus not going to be a "day 1" update. We'll get there eventually, but in the meantime, if you build a runelord using the pre-remastered rules, they'll still play fine side by side in your home game with any remastered content. It's still 2nd Edition Pathfinder. (That said, if you want your runelord PC to prepare remastered spells, you as the player and your GM will have to make some judgement calls as to what spells are in what schools in the short term.)I think this will happen when a peacock approaches.He is on the cover for a remaster book...
And thanks as always to James for chiming in
Same difference ?
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Same difference ?James or Xanderghul?Maybe it's a Mirage...<snip>I think this will happen when a peacock approaches.He is on the cover for a remaster book...
And thanks as always to James for chiming in
I know you kid by I'm honestly pleasantly surprised he isn't gone, always thought James didn't like him as he embodied the negative traits in people he likes the least (if I'm remembering old posts right?).
Though maybe that's what makes him keep popping back up, can't get enough of a truly hateable villain. That's why I like the Old Man Peacock. Thoroughly loathable.
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Creative Director
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I know you kid by I'm honestly pleasantly surprised he isn't gone, always thought James didn't like him as he embodied the negative traits in people he likes the least (if I'm remembering old posts right?).
Though maybe that's what makes him keep popping back up, can't get enough of a truly hateable villain. That's why I like the Old Man Peacock. Thoroughly loathable.
Xanderghul's one of my favorite villains. I made him the most powerful runelord precisely because of my take that he embodies the negative traits in people I like the least. He very much is who he is because of me (his creator) and what I (as his creator) find to be reprehensible in humanity: pride and arrogance (from which so many cruelties descend and develop).
Return of the Runelords spoilers...
His ultimate fate in Return of the Runelords was intended to be a pretty decisive one, but there are factors brewing and plot points that I've been developing for over a year, based on upcoming products that no one outside of Paizo has any eyes on yet, to explain why we decided to put him on the cover of GM Core. Among other things.
But the timing and schedule for when that story's going to be told keeps getting pushed back as real-world complications force our schedule to adjust and change, so at this point, I wouldn't expect any further news about this particular story line to be teased out for at least a year, if not longer.
I hope we'll get there. I've invested several thousand words and many hours of plotting into the Xanderghul story, but with the Remaster happening (which not only wreaked havoc on our schedule, but also made it more complicated to tell stories about runelords themselves due to the fact that we based runelord magic traditions too deeply in OGL tropes) and other changes and upcoming projects not being solid enough to build adventures on... the story will need to wait much longer than I hoped when I first started talking about this.
Oh, boy. Now I fear that I'm the reason we didn't get mythic 1E Xanderghul. ^^ Well, if that saved the AP from being full mythic (and sorry, but not sorry, that would have been terrible under mythic rules as written)... I could live with that.
Anyway, since I'm sure (i.e. I strongly hope) that 2E mythic rules will not break the game in half, like the 1E rules did, I'm very much looking forward to Xan-Xan's return. Magic Tony Stark FTW! Also, probably more Sorshen and Nocticula, which I would love to read more of in AP's. Also Ameiko, but that is probably too much to ask. :p
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Also Ameiko, but that is probably too much to ask. :pAmeiko doesn't need mythic rules, nor is her story tied to Xanderghul.
AKA there'll be an Ameiko cameo at least once in 2024.
Well, very much looking forward to it. She's probably my favorite NPC in the setting, but then again I got to play her twice when running Jade Regent, so I'm biased. Shalelu gets the number two spot, btw.
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I know you kid by I'm honestly pleasantly surprised he isn't gone, always thought James didn't like him as he embodied the negative traits in people he likes the least (if I'm remembering old posts right?).
Though maybe that's what makes him keep popping back up, can't get enough of a truly hateable villain. That's why I like the Old Man Peacock. Thoroughly loathable.
Xanderghul's one of my favorite villains. I made him the most powerful runelord precisely because of my take that he embodies the negative traits in people I like the least. He very much is who he is because of me (his creator) and what I (as his creator) find to be reprehensible in humanity: pride and arrogance (from which so many cruelties descend and develop).
Return of the Runelords spoilers...
** spoiler omitted **...
MOAR SECRETS !!! I NEED MOAR SECRETS !!!
Ahem. Thank you for all these tantalizing tidbits.
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spoiler:I would have loved to have him be the main villain in Return of the Runelords, but the backlash against mythic made me timid about doing that story, so I focused instead on Alaznist being the main villain for that one and pulled some story-fu to make it so Xanderghul wasn't a factor any more. By making him depowered, I could set him up as a mid-campaign foe, but to a lot of folks (myself included) that felt a bit hollow.
James. Does that mean, if the Return of the Runelords adventure path was developed as you initially planned, would Xanderghul have been the final boss, instead of Alaznist? Can you elaborate more on this unpublished mythic storyline? Maybe Sorshen allies with Xanderghul or Alaznist does not die or Xanderghul resurrects Karzoug in this original storyline? I'm not sure why Alaznist can be a final boss of a non-mythic campaign but Xanderghul cannot, even though both of them have archmage mythic tiers (I'm not sure if you ever said which mythic path Xanderghul chose but I guess his logical choice would be archmage).
Actually I was very depressed to hear that. The mythic adventure path that features Xanderghul as the final boss seems much more interesting than the current version of Return of the Runelords. The fact that Paizo decided to greatly change the storyline of that adventure path would be one of the biggest mistake Paizo has ever made, I guess (other similar mistakes would be the decision that it would not publish an adventure path that deals with the redemption of Nocticula or Sorshen, or the Last Theorem of the Dominion of the Black). The Last Theorem should have been a seed for an entire adventure path instead of a playtest. :(
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Creative Director
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** spoiler omitted **James. Does that mean, if the Return of the Runelords adventure path was developed as you initially planned, would Xanderghul have been the final boss, instead of Alaznist? Can you elaborate more on this unpublished mythic storyline? Maybe Sorshen allies with Xanderghul or Alaznist does not die or Xanderghul resurrects Karzoug in this original storyline? I'm not sure why Alaznist can be a final boss of a non-mythic campaign but Xanderghul cannot, even though both of them have archmage mythic tiers (I'm not sure if you ever said which mythic path Xanderghul chose but I guess his logical choice would be archmage).
Actually I was very depressed to hear that. The mythic adventure path that features Xanderghul as the final boss seems much more interesting than the current version of Return of the Runelords. The fact that Paizo decided to greatly change the storyline of that adventure path would be one of the biggest mistake Paizo has ever made, I guess (other similar mistakes would be the decision that it would not publish an adventure path that deals with the redemption of Nocticula or Sorshen, or the Last Theorem of the Dominion of the Black). The Last Theorem should have been a seed for an entire adventure path instead of a playtest. :(
I can't.
The reason Alaznist can be the final boss in a non-mythic game is that, as a CR 24 foe, she's in the perfect spot to work as a VERY deadly boss for a 20th level party. Xanderghul is more powerful than that, closer to Sorshen's CR 27 point (with a chance of being pushed to CR 28), which makes him simply too much for even 20th level party to face without having to pull punches or make adjustments, and if I was gonna have to do that anyway, it was better to pit the 20th level PCs against a Runelord at her full power and depower Xanderghul further.
Paizo, aka me, did not "change" the plot. Work on the plot for Return of the Runelords was, from the start, under the assumptions I listed above. I never put any work into building a story where Xanderghul was the final villain and the PCs were intended to be mythic. There is no "unpublished" storyline because it never progressed from the idea stage before I decided to take the story in the other, published direction.
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Creative Director
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James, wasn't Alaznist also chosen for mechanical reasons related to her school? Pardon me if I'm misremembering, but I feel like I read something on here (maybe from you?) about how evocation wizard worked better as a final boss than illusion or enchantment because it was less focused on single target save-or-lose and really scared EVERYONE.
Could totally be hallucinating though. Xanderghul and Sorshen tend to make one do that...
There's a lot of reasons why I went with the specific story I chose to feature in this Adventure Path, but I'm not sure I ever cited that one as one of them. BUT it's a good point nevertheless!
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James. Does that mean, if the Return of the Runelords adventure path was developed as you initially planned, would Xanderghul have been the final boss, instead of Alaznist? Can you elaborate more on this unpublished mythic storyline? Maybe Sorshen allies with Xanderghul or Alaznist does not die or Xanderghul resurrects Karzoug in this original storyline? I'm not sure why Alaznist can be a final boss of a non-mythic campaign but Xanderghul cannot, even though both of them have archmage mythic tiers (I'm not sure if you ever said which mythic path Xanderghul chose but I guess his logical choice would be archmage).
Actually I was very depressed to hear that. The mythic adventure path that features Xanderghul as the final boss seems much more interesting than the current version of Return of the Runelords. The fact that Paizo decided to greatly change the storyline of that adventure path would be one of the biggest mistake Paizo has ever made, I guess (other similar mistakes would be the decision that it would not publish an adventure path that deals with the redemption of Nocticula or Sorshen, or the Last Theorem of the Dominion of the Black). The Last Theorem should have been a seed for an entire adventure path instead of a playtest. :(
Oh, wow, hard disagree here on almost everything. I think Return of the Runelords was done almost perfectly, to give players a chance to confront almost every Runelord (and then some more to boot) throughout the span of the AP. The guy who did the 2E conversion on Pathfinder Infinite actually included (well-justified) options to fight Karzoug and Krune as well and statted them out.
I think the only thing you listed I'd love to have seen written up is Nocticulas redemption when it happened, not after the fact. We are witnessing much of Sorshens redemption through her actions in Return of the Runelords proper.