I don’t know if I am going to get to play with it at all, but it looks really, really done. I wonder what pain points Sayre is trying to test with the playtest? Maybe just whether players figure out how to build and play them in different fun ways, or they all just choose the same feats all the time?
But the class is so flexible with its everything that I think even pretty niche apparitions and feats are fine for this class.
Design Manager
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don’t know if I am going to get to play with it at all, but it looks really, really done. I wonder what pain points Sayre is trying to test with the playtest?
I suspect that the framework is pretty close to where it needs to be, but there's a lot of small moving parts that I really want to find out how people feel about. Are the new spellshape feats too techy, or do they give a layer of additional customization and flavor that help the class pop? Is the relatively complex framework to balance all the pieces making the class too convoluted to be accessible for a wide enough audience?
Pushing the class to be able to try new things and get well away from "just another caster" required manipulating the system to try new balance paradigms, and while I've done a ton of playtesting on those myself to hit a very specific theme, function, and power level, it doesn't matter if the pieces all work if they're too complex to be appealing to a wide audience. I'm also not entirely happy with the practices yet and would love to get more actual play data from a wide group of fans so I can refine those.
Also, I'm going to get to bring in a fair bit more content to this class post-playtest, so there's a lot of value in seeing what concepts people successfully make and which ones they want to do but can't quite get to so I can fill in those empty spaces in the most satisfying way possible. So just like how new exemplar ikons will inevitably help fill in the spaces where people are like "I want to make X concept but there isn't an ikon that satisfies that weapon type and theme", knowing what apparitions people think are missing will help me most successfully fill in the space I have for additional apparitions after the playtest. I may think it would be super cool to have a creepy haunted funhouse apparition, but if the space gets tight and I need to choose between that and a "wizard from ancient times" apparition because people really want an arcane apparition that fulfills certain fantasies, it's good to know that they want that so I can prioritize that community desire over something I just think would be fun.
I don’t know if I am going to get to play with it at all, but it looks really, really done. I wonder what pain points Sayre is trying to test with the playtest?I suspect that the framework is pretty close to where it needs to be, but there's a lot of small moving parts that I really want to find out how people feel about. Are the new spellshape feats too techy, or do they give a layer of additional customization and flavor that help the class pop? Is the relatively complex framework to balance all the pieces making the class too convoluted to be accessible for a wide enough audience?
Pushing the class to be able to try new things and get well away from "just another caster" required manipulating the system to try new balance paradigms, and while I've done a ton of playtesting on those myself to hit a very specific theme, function, and power level, it doesn't matter if the pieces all work if they're too complex to be appealing to a wide audience. I'm also not entirely happy with the practices yet and would love to get more actual play data from a wide group of fans so I can refine those.
Also, I'm going to get to bring in a fair bit more content to this class post-playtest, so there's a lot of value in seeing what concepts people successfully make and which ones they want to do but can't quite get to so I can fill in those empty spaces in the most satisfying way possible. So just like how new exemplar ikons will inevitably help fill in the spaces where people are like "I want to make X concept but there isn't an ikon that satisfies that weapon type and theme", knowing what apparitions people think are missing will help me most successfully fill in the space I have for additional apparitions after the playtest. I may think it would be super cool to have a creepy haunted funhouse apparition, but if the space gets tight and I need to choose between that and a "wizard from ancient times" apparition because people really want an arcane apparition that...
There is a lot going on in this baby as far as chassis and feat abilities go, that's why my first gut reaction was make it 3 slots instead of 4. If there are too many plates to spin I'm not sure what to cut because the stuff made here all looks FUN! I will say that divine prepared slots with spirit based signature slots, strong sustained focus spells, and supreme incarnation are the main parts I want to survive the playtest.
It only becomes 4 slots with level -2 slots, and that is due to added on feature at level 10. Until then it is a 3 slot caster and for top level slots it stays that way.
I think the extra lower level apparition slots really help with some of the higher level feats that trigger off of animist having cast apparition spells or being able to cast them. Only having 4 or 5 of them total is pretty limiting in those contexts.
There are a lot of moving pieces with the class but it looks like it has very good flow from low level to high level as far as teaching you your mechanics. That is a tough thing to playtest because people jump around on levels more than just level up naturally, but it looks very tight around it’s level progression -power growth from afar.
It only becomes 4 slots with level -2 slots, and that is due to added on feature at level 10. Until then it is a 3 slot caster and for top level slots it stays that way.
I think the extra lower level apparition slots really help with some of the higher level feats that trigger off of animist having cast apparition spells or being able to cast them. Only having 4 or 5 of them total is pretty limiting in those contexts.
There are a lot of moving pieces with the class but it looks like it has very good flow from low level to high level as far as teaching you your mechanics. That is a tough thing to playtest because people jump around on levels more than just level up naturally, but it looks very tight around it’s level progression -power growth from afar.
Then maybe make the prepared slots 1 instead of 2. Wizard and (to a lesser extent) sorc are gonna shuffle their feat dejectedly looking over the isle at a four slot caster that has this much fun injected into them (but maybe remaster wizard and sorcs have more mechanics outside of their slots, though i wont hold my breath).
Personally, I would much rather have more top 2 rank slots than lower rank slots. Losing your prepared ones is really going to hurt on that front. Especially since you only get 1 apparition spell per rank until level 10. The thing about lower rank spell slots is that the game offers many ways to make them almost unlimited anyway with scrolls, MC feats, staves, etc. The only reason the extra ones feel necessary for the animist is because I am not sure whether spells cast from items would count as Apparition spells or not. maybe they could lose the bonus spells feature at level 10 if casting the the same spells available to you as apparition spells from items counted as apparition spells, but that honestly feels more complex and like more of a power boost to the class.
What type of class ability or feat there should be is one that lets you convert prepared Animist slots to Apparition slots and vice-versa and let you for 10 minutes prepare some divine magic.
Personally, I would much rather have more top 2 rank slots than lower rank slots. Losing your prepared ones is really going to hurt on that front. Especially since you only get 1 apparition spell per rank until level 10. The thing about lower rank spell slots is that the game offers many ways to make them almost unlimited anyway with scrolls, MC feats, staves, etc. The only reason the extra ones feel necessary for the animist is because I am not sure whether spells cast from items would count as Apparition spells or not. maybe they could lose the bonus spells feature at level 10 if casting the the same spells available to you as apparition spells from items counted as apparition spells, but that honestly feels more complex and like more of a power boost to the class.
I really don't think 2 spell slots make up for comparatively boring and/or weak chassis and feat features, but we're obviously of different minds on spell slots so I won't beat a dead horse beyond saying that if it stays a 4 slot caster it should be 6hp instead of 8hp (and the melee injections axed lest we repeat the old witch's pain points). I obviously wouldn't like any of that so I'd prefer a 3 slot caster so wiz and sorc can keep their thing (that other people like)
After reading it, it definitely felt like an "almost done" class.
Nothing problematic jumped out from the get go, which it did with other classes. Both the Animist and The Exemplar had no glaring issues with their action economy.
Maybe it's because the class is more complex, I don't know. I just feel like it is pretty great already and, much like with the Swashbuckler, it just needs to iron some things out and refine the class.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Then maybe make the prepared slots 1 instead of 2. Wizard and (to a lesser extent) sorc are gonna shuffle their feat dejectedly looking over the isle at a four slot caster that has this much fun injected into them (but maybe remaster wizard and sorcs have more mechanics outside of their slots, though i wont hold my breath).
I'd much rather see the others buffed than the Animist nerfed. Especially the Wizard, who has been struggling to even justify its existence for a while now. Because this really doesn't feel too strong.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
10/10 its as good as it can be change nothing.
I wouldn't go that far.
I do like what I am seeing. A lot. The theme and mechanics are pretty much exactly what I was looking for.
Some of the details need review. Such as its Perception and Save proficiencies.
Exactly there is no such thing as too good of a class,
There is. We definitely don't want to go back to 1e days of people having limited builds available because some build choices are significantly more powerful than others and the campaigns being written now are targeted towards the more powerful characters - leaving the previous characters unplayable.
I love the 1e Medium--especially the Rivethun Spirit Channeler and the Spirit Dancer archetypes--because I love complex classes. I really like the things Michael has produced.
However, I wouldn't call the Animist "perfect." It has a lot of promise, and there are probably several builds that make perfect use of the class features, but there's a lot of pieces where I start to get excited but then finish reading the class feat or focus spell and am left feeling disappointed.
I'll start with the Channeler practice's 1st level ability. As a fan of the above 1e Medium archetypes, I was very excited to see this. However, I can't find a way to use this practice to any benefit over what the base class provides.
Ostensibly, you can switch your primary attuned apparition in the middle of combat. Cool. But then, why?
You already have access to all of the attuned apparitions' spells.
Swapping lores int he middle of combat--especially the available lores--is not going to benefit me enough to warrant the action use.
You could cast the first apparition's Focus Spell, swap, then cast the second apparition's Focus spell the next round, but each of the Focus Spells real benefit is in their sustained nature. They certainly don't scale well enough to cast as a one-off. Then you're sustaining 2 spells per round, leaving you with 1 action per round.
I start Imposter in Hidden Places and cast Discomforting Whispers as a defensive buff then swap to Witness to Ancient Battles in order to cast Embodiment of Battle the next round and use my 6th action to sustain Discomforting Whispers. Two rounds to buff up, no action other than casting spells. Unless you take the virtually mandatory 2nd level Feat Sustaining Dance so I can squeeze in a Step or Leap.
Yes, if you happen to have any apparition other than Steward of Stone and Fire as primary and stumble upon a troll, then being able to switch to an apparition that will grant you fire damage/fire spells is a boon... but that is a pretty niche situation.
You're certainly not going to be swapping avatar forms.
That's just my first concern, and I would be happy to have someone show me a truly useful way to take advantage of the Channeler practice.
Possibly if Apparition's Whirl was a Free Action--limited to the start of your turn to balance it or not--it might make it slightly more useful, but I still think it needs more.
A way that swapping apparitions in the middle of combat might be useful--with the caveat that this could be too powerful:
Each apparition would need a unique combat use outside of their focus spells. Swap one of the lores for a skill with use outside of Recall Knowledge and Earn Income. Grant a skill feat tied to the non-lore skill useful in combat.
Please forgive me for using the 1e Medium spirits as a scaffold.
Trickster: Grants Thievery and Underworld Lore. Grant Pickpocket.
Hierophant: Grants Medicine and Forest Lore. Grant Battle Medicine.
Archmagi: Grants Arcana and Spirit Lore. Grant Recognize Spell.
Champion: Grants Athletics and Battleground Lore. Grant Titan Wrestler.
Since they're going in a direction of more varied themes than the 6 mythic paths, there's a lot more diversity and interesting pairings that could be designed.
And the Sage benefits from the more robust skill and the combat useful feat gained, too.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Before we ask for nerfs to the Animist, let's keep in mind their closest mechanical equivalent is the cleric, who gets 4 free top rank heals, now without charisma investment.
I'll start with the Channeler practice's 1st level ability. As a fan of the above 1e Medium archetypes, I was very excited to see this. However, I can't find a way to use this practice to any benefit over what the base class provides.
Ostensibly, you can switch your primary attuned apparition in the middle of combat. Cool. But then, why?
You already have access to all of the attuned apparitions' spells.
Swapping lores int he middle of combat--especially the available lores--is not going to benefit me enough to warrant the action use.
You could cast the first apparition's Focus Spell, swap, then cast the second apparition's Focus spell the next round, but each of the Focus Spells real benefit is in their sustained nature. They certainly don't scale well enough to cast as a one-off. Then you're sustaining 2 spells per round, leaving you with 1 action per round.
I start Imposter in Hidden Places and cast Discomforting Whispers as a defensive buff then swap to Witness to Ancient Battles in order to cast Embodiment of Battle the next round and use my 6th action to sustain Discomforting Whispers. Two rounds to buff up, no action other than casting spells. Unless you take the virtually mandatory 2nd level Feat Sustaining Dance so I can squeeze in a Step or Leap.Yes, if you happen to have any apparition other than Steward of Stone and Fire as primary and stumble upon a troll, then being able to switch to an apparition that will grant you fire damage/fire spells is a boon... but that is a...
Whirl is a little niche, but so is possession. The main use for Whirl is probably swapping into a melee option when spells aren't the right play. But there's also a lot more stuff associated with the paths, and Channeler gets a much more widely applicable class feat bundled with it.
I find the need for Animistic Practice a little confusing though. It is the first class to get anything close cleric doctrines. But while there are interesting things bundled in both paths, their thematic and mechanical differences don't feel as obvious as "casty cleric" and "fighty cleric." Feels like you'd either want more Practices to compare, more differences between the two, or to remove the feature choice all together.
I don't think apparition's whirl being niche is bad. Possession is even more miche... it's clear these abilites are supposed to be supplemental more than character defining. I still think being able to swap focus spells on the fly is definitely useful in the right situation.
Though I have to agree to some extent that I'm not sure how much Practice really drives the class. Like nothing about 'sage' screams to me "armor a few levels earlier" and nothing about Channeler necessarily tells me it should be the one getting the blasting feat for free.
To be honest if I had to point to one issue right now... the lack of any passive benefit from the apparitions feels off. Maybe it's me being stuck on the PF1 Medium too much, but it feels like the spirit should be altering me in some way even when I'm not actively engaging with its abilities and right now that's not really the case.
The problem is that the class is already really good so I'm not sure how you'd effectively be able to add something like that anyways.
I think Possession's value shows up more frequently than an opportunity to swap Focus Spell in the middle of combat. However, taking it from the perspective that they're both niche then--that the 1st level abilities, which you would think would be build defining--then the practices need to resorbed back into the main chasis with Whirl and Possession becoming feats, the practices need to be more impact-fully distinct, the apparitions need to do more to make them unique from each other, or some combination of all that.
The Whirl limit of once per round becomes misleading as it appears like something you'd use more than once per combat, but you would very rarely want to whirl to a third as an "Oh s#!t" action (but the focus spells are rarely going to save your bacon). Make it one-action once oer 10 minutes, and it tells you it's a once per combat ability.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think Possession's value shows up more frequently than an opportunity to swap Focus Spell in the middle of combat.
Does it? Possession doesn't do anything unless you're fighting an enemy who can control or charm you, their ability doesn't outscale you, you're prepared for it (since you need to put up possession first), and then is only useful if the monster targets you specifically with it.
It's not out of the question to go an entire campaign without ever having an encounter where all those boxes are checked because it's so specific.
While definitely not mandatory or necessary, the flexibility of being able to pull healing out of my back pocket or swap from blasting mooks to debuffing a boss after the former drop seems a lot more immediately relevant.
It's all anecdotal, but, in my personal experience, controlling effects are more common than the situation where I would need to swap any of the Focus Spells presented in the playtest.
However, you've drawn my attention to what I perceive as a flaw in the Sage. It's another 1-action action tax, because it's something you'd want all the time. It works better as a Reaction, but that's a 4th level Animist feat already.
I may be undervaluing the Focus Spells, but Garden of Healing is a pitifully small heal with the risk of healing your enemies too, Earth's Bile is OK because it also serves as crowd/zone control but it's not something I would necessarily need to swap to for a one-off blast when I have fireball, and Embodiment of Battle is heavy action price for personal range Inspire Courage + Reactive Strike + Critical Specialization (in the weapon that was in your hand at the time of casting). None of these are nothing, but they're much more useful sustained than as one-offs and not much more useful to stop one in order to cast another.
So going back to the issue that the defining ability of each Practice is not something that will come up frequently and suffer from an action economy more challenging than the Thaumaturge or certain Invetor builds, I would like them to be more meaningful of a choice.
Another way to make swapping apparitions more meaningful than adjusting the granted skills or granting a skill feat would be to grant an apparition specific spell. The spell is unique to the apparition and can only be cast when that apparition is primary. This suffers from increasing the appearance of complexity because you've got now a 3rd different kind of spell list, albeit a list of 1.
Another thought, and I'm largely spit balling...
Channeler: Channelers can Sustain an Animist focus spell as a free action once per round, whether they keep whirl or make whirl a separate feet.
Sage: Gain a bonded item like ability to restore a used Apparition slot once per day.