So, what's the good stuff?

[mikeawmids]

Maybe so, but the book doesn't direct readers/customers to the Archive of Nethys. Whether or not you can get your hands on the particular ruleset for (cue jingle) Paizo's BS Subsystem of the Week isn't my main gripe, it's that being bombarded with multiple subsystems per module is exhausting and subjectively bad.

[magnuskn]

Steve Geddes wrote:

You seek find this interesting. I agree with you in that I think this is what people are meaning when they ask which is best. But even these are not really objective, I think.

Subsystems (for example) are irrelevant to me in terms of whether I think it’s a “good” AP. Those that work for our group, I use and those that don’t I just narrate, handwave or switch to a tactical solution. What matters for me is the story and I regard the resolution process encapsulated within subsystems as suggestions, at best.

I’m even reluctant to include story structure, merely because some of the APs that read well have left my group bored. Whereas some that I thought were going to be lame are still talked about years later.

I’ve also seen so many debates with people screaming at one another about what constitutes “good” game design, no matter how diametrically opposed their views. It’s an uncomfortable view for me because I’m basically an objectivist wrt just about everything.

I think what you describe has to come down to subjective perception. If a (widely acknowledged, even by the developers) badly written AP like Serpent's Skull is a huge hit with your group, I personally would chalk that up to a.) the theme of the campaign resonating with them and b.) the individual GM work being outstanding (often motivated by the GM being highly motivated to keep an already popular campaign going well).

Subsystems can of course be handwaved, but often GM's will just assume that they should be used, because Paizo put them into the adventure. Hence, I think using them to put together how well an AP is built makes sense. Although it should be a minor component in grading them, since even the best ones don't seem to be exactly barn burners in terms of popularity with GM's and players.

[Steve Geddes]

That seems reasonable. I just always struggle to articulate what a "good AP" is, I guess.

My favorites over the years (pre paizo) have always been more about the story. Thats ultimately what keeps me coming back to them. And that is inherently subjective, as you point out.

[Steve Geddes]

I will say, I'm leery to use "popular" as a marker for "good".

I dont think thats measuring the same thing at all - even if quality can be objectively measured and they are correlates, I suspect theyre only mildly related.

[The Raven Black]

The OP gave us examples of what they enjoy. The title might seem a bit too absolute though.

The idea always is to help people who wonder which AP they should buy to benefit from the "hive mind" of those who played them.

[Arcaian]

mikeawmids wrote:

Maybe so, but the book doesn't direct readers/customers to the Archive of Nethys. Whether or not you can get your hands on the particular ruleset for (cue jingle) Paizo's BS Subsystem of the Week isn't my main gripe, it's that being bombarded with multiple subsystems per module is exhausting and subjectively bad.

Again, the victory point systems are all functionally the same subsystem, and a simple and straightforward one at that. I've used VPs with a couple of my tables without ever having introduced it as an explicit subsystem - "so for this bit, you each have time enough for one check before the plan needs to happen, and we need 3 successes to convince the boss that your plan is worth following. Crits give 2 successes, crit fails take one away. He's currently not certain about the risks it involves, and whether or not the herbs you've gathered will do the task. Does anyone have an idea of how they'd convince him?". Once you've done that, people understand the fundamentals of all VP systems - sure, in that context I could've used the slightly more detailed Influence Points system, but it's really easy for players to get their heads around these systems. If your complaint is that being 'bombarded' with these VP systems is exhausting, then I simply don't see how that could be the case - these aren't the bespoke, mostly untested subsystems that Paizo put in many PF1 APs that I definitely did find relatively taxing to implement will into the adventure.

[Steve Geddes]

The Raven Black wrote:

The OP gave us examples of what they enjoy. The title might seem a bit too absolute though.

The idea always is to help people who wonder which AP they should buy to benefit from the "hive mind" of those who played them.

Conversation wanders. Perhaps it will be useful, perhaps not.

[Lord Fyre]

Steve Geddes wrote:

I will say, I'm leery to use "popular" as a marker for "good".

This also doesn't take into account the changes in the reader/player. What was quality even 10 years ago has changed as we've become more aware of Colonialism, Sexism, etc. (I'm afraid to use "Woke" as it has become politically charged.)

For example, go an try to read the original Tarzan (from 1913). I am pretty sure that it won't read the same as it did then. (I tried to watch the DvD of the Buck Rogers in the 25th Century from 1979. I couldn't do it.)

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Giantslayer, by all accounts, sold very well and is quite popular, but at the same time, it's one of Paizo's worst APs.

[mikeawmids]

Glass Cannon gang are likely a factor there.

Has Troy ever explained why he chose Giantslayer over all the other APs that were out at that time?

[The Raven Black]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Giantslayer, by all accounts, sold very well and is quite popular, but at the same time, it's one of Paizo's worst APs.

I almost mentioned it as the one AP I do not recall anyone recommending.

[Steve Geddes]

mikeawmids wrote:

Glass Cannon gang are likely a factor there.

Has Troy ever explained why he chose Giantslayer over all the other APs that were out at that time?

I believe they’ve said that 1, it was new and 2, skid had nostalgia for the G1-3 modules.

[Steve Geddes]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Giantslayer, by all accounts, sold very well and is quite popular, but at the same time, it's one of Paizo's worst APs.

I’ll be interested to see how we like it (it’s next in our queue)

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

mikeawmids wrote:

Glass Cannon gang are likely a factor there.

Has Troy ever explained why he chose Giantslayer over all the other APs that were out at that time?

Probably for the reason everyone else did, that being middle-aged D&D dude nostalgia for "Against The Giants" vibe.

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Steve Geddes wrote:

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Giantslayer, by all accounts, sold very well and is quite popular, but at the same time, it's one of Paizo's worst APs.

I’ll be interested to see how we like it (it’s next in our queue)

Please don't start hurting yourself.

[Steve Geddes]

I don’t like Reign or Winter or Strength of Thousands.

So we have different tastes. :p

[Lord Fyre]

Steve Geddes wrote:

I don’t like Reign or Winter or Strength of Thousands.

So we have different tastes. :p

Which leads to …

James Jacobs wrote:

One of the reasons why we do so many Adventure Paths is because we will NEVER publish everyone's favorite one. THe more we do gets us closer to that goal.

And please folks... if someone makes a list of their favorites, let them like things. It's okay if some folks prefer elements that you might not, and vice versa. Them not listing your favorites does not make your favorites any less your favorite.

There are certainly ones that sell better than others. Some that have better reviews than others. And some that I personally had more fun working on than others. Those lists will never be identical.

[glass]

mikeawmids wrote:

An NPC has information that could help your investigation? Better start gathering Influence points!

You're being chased by an angry bloke with a big stick? Let's hope you can accumulate enough Evasion points to escape!

Do you want to buy that cool magic item from the skeezy merchant? He's not gonna' sell unless you've collected enough Negotiation points to satisfy his weird and inconvenient compulsion to haggle.

I do not know (and do not want to be told, because that would be a significant spoiler) what exactly these refer to, but they sound very much like VP from the GMG. In which case, it is not "subsystems of the week", it is literally the same subsystem.

[glass]

Regarding what's good, I can obviously only speak to one I have played or run. Which, if I count the ones that are still in progress, is actually quite a few now. Specifically:

(format is: Name of AP/role/status or progress/system/rating, then any further notes in a spoiler block if necessary).

Age of Worms/GM/Complete/PF1 (mostly)/Very Good

Spoiler:

Started with 3.5, but switched to Beta and then finished PF1 when they came out. Decided to do gestalt because I thought we'd have a small group and then ended up never dipping below 5, but that was for the best because it can be quite brutal. Finished just into Epic levels - I rewrote the Epic rules because the ELH is not great.

War of the Burning Sky/Player/Complete/D&D 4e/OK (not Paizo)

Spoiler:

Had mechanical issues, although I got the sense that was more a problem with the 4e adaptation than inherent in the original. Our GM came up with a homebrew way to play out the larger battles which worked really well - the 4e version had them as skill challenges, which would have been less satisfying. Not sure what the original version did. The other mark against it is there is one point where the adventure expects you to activate an item that you just learned consumes people's souls...we asked for volunteers, but if I was ever to run it I would rewrite that section.

Rise of the Runelords/GM/Complete/D&D 4e then PF1/Very good

Spoiler:

Running it in 4e was a mistake (not that there is anything wrong with 4e, it just wasn't worth the effort to convert) - we reverted to PF1 when they turned of DDi and it was a blessed relief. Which has nothing to do with the quality of the AP, which was generally pretty great, if dark at times.

Shattered Star/Player/On the final chapter (lvl 16)/Not the best

Spoiler:

It is basically just dungeon after dungeon after dungeon. The end boss is barely mention until the final chapter AFAICT. And it does that thing where you are expected to do something that the players know is a bad idea but have to go along with because their character have no way of knowing (and anyway the adventure stalls if they don't). But on the brightside, you get to play with a major artifact without its screwing you over (so far), which is fun!

And this is getting long enough, so TBC in another post....

[zimmerwald1915]

Steve Geddes wrote:

I don’t like Reign or Winter or Strength of Thousands.

So we have different tastes. :p

There are many ways people are wrong in the world. Not liking the same Adventure Paths as I do is one of the most trivial.

[glass]

glass wrote:

(format is: Name of AP/role/status or progress/system/rating, then any further notes in a spoiler block if necessary).

And this is getting long enough, so TBC in another post....

Curse of the Crimson Throne/Player/About half way (lvl 8)/Very Good

Spoiler:

Being centred around one city (so far), it obviously does not have as much variety as RotRL or AoW, but on the plus side we have been able to build up relationships with quite a few of the locals. And it threads the needle between leading the PCs around be the nose and leaving them without a clue what to do next pretty deftly (although that might just be our GM being great).

The Sunless Citadel Adventure Path/GM/About half way through (lvl 10)/PF1/Good (not Paizo)

Spoiler:

The original AP to be called that, it did not have an official name because at the time it was published it was just "The Adventure Path" - now it is generally referred to by the title of its first part, or as the Path of Ashardalon. Written for 3.0, but pretty easy to convert to PF1 on the fly. A mixed bag, but definitely more good than bad/ It is less focused than later APs tend to be - lots of sidequests and other random stuff with nothing to do with the main plot - but I don't mind that too much.

Savage Tide/Player/Just under half way through (lvl 7)/Very Good

Spoiler:

..but very hard in places! We called the session during a brief lull between waves in a multi-wave encounter, and I am not sure we are going to survive. We have already had one TPK (one character got better) - funnily enough this is out second attempt to play it with the same GM, and my character died at the same point both times, although the previous attempt fell apart from unrelated reasons). Although to be fair, we only have two players this time around (albeit with seriously beefed up PCs).

Written for 3.5, but pretty easy to adapt to PF1 on the fly.

Abomination Vaults/GM/One level in (in both senses)/PF2/Good

Spoiler:

It is one big dungeon, but that seems less repetitive somehow than the many dungeons of Shattered Star (so far at least). Probably helps that we knew what we were getting into!

Definitely another hard one so far, although PF2 at lower levels tends to be like that, it seems. The giant scorpion accounted for one PC, and we nearly had a TPK when the 1st-level PCs decided to go down stairs to the second level and take on a wraith, or was it a shadow? Either way, it is a good job they decided to and were able to run away.

And that's it. Obviously, take the ratings for the unfinished APs (especially the ones in this post) with a bucketload of salt, since I do not know how the later stages are going to go. We are talking about starting Return of the Runelords and The Wild Beyond the Witchlight (for D&D 5e, but we will use EN Publishing's Level Up/A5e) soon-ish, and maybe Iron Gods and/or Shackled City after that.

[Aaron Shanks]

Removed a post for harassment and associate posts.

Do not abuse, defame, harass, threaten, or stalk others via our forums or private messaging system. Community members should feel welcome while they're on paizo.com.

[Yakman]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

mikeawmids wrote:

Glass Cannon gang are likely a factor there.

Has Troy ever explained why he chose Giantslayer over all the other APs that were out at that time?

Probably for the reason everyone else did, that being middle-aged D&D dude nostalgia for "Against The Giants" vibe.

The choice was brought up a few times in some old Cannon Fodders: Giantslayer was the "new AP" at the time (I don't think it was finished being published when they started), and it was themed "classic" good v. evil.

[keftiu]

With some time having passed: folks are really enjoying Season of Ghosts, from everything that I've heard. Asian-inspired fantasy horror is a pretty rare niche in TTRPGs!

[Oliver von Spreckelsen]

The biggest problem of Council of Thieves is disappointed expections. The Players expect an AP where they are rebelling against the House of Thrune, but in the end they are the Batman of Westcrown. You only need to change the initial speech of Janiven Key and the players will know what to expect from this campaign. (Yes, there are some other problems, too, but that's the main one. And Second Darkness + Serpent Skull have this problem, too)

[zimmerwald1915]

Oliver von Spreckelsen wrote:

The biggest problem of Council of Thieves is disappointed expections. The Players expect an AP where they are rebelling against the House of Thrune, but in the end they are the Batman of Westcrown. You only need to change the initial speech of Janiven Key and the players will know what to expect from this campaign. (Yes, there are some other problems, too, but that's the main one. And Second Darkness + Serpent Skull have this problem, too)

You do more revolutionizing in winning autonomy (self-government) for the people of Westcrown than you do in any of the APs about overthrowing a government, simply because the options for replacing the overthrown governments are so determinedly conservative.

[Jonathan Morgantini]

Removed a post for potential baiting.