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Phantom is hit or not hit by the weapon that hits at Dexterity instead of Strength? Rules say Strength doesn't hit, but Dexterity hits - what am I missing?
Could you give some links to what you're talking about, or maybe copy the text?
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Phantom is hit or not hit by the weapon that hits at Dexterity instead of Strength? Rules say Strength doesn't hit, but Dexterity hits - what am I missing?
Correct that is what the rules say.
Incorporeal creatures are immune to Strength based checks.
Which was fine except they gave the option to PCs in Dark Archive.
Most people interpret the rule as Incorporeal creatures are immune to Strength based skill checks. Then let the few incorporeal creatures rely on their other resistances...
Paizo need to fix this.
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It's always been clear to most of us that the rule was not referring to being immune to STR-based Strikes.
A few people have taken the super-legalistic reading that results in a pretty non-functional game.
Book of the Dead then reinforced that the intent of the rule is Strength based skill checks, not Strikes.
TLDR: Yes, a longsword works as well against a ghost as a rapier.
Hmmm. Is difficult for me Str is not "useful" is Dex is useful ... sigh.
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Hmmm. Is difficult for me Str is not "useful" is Dex is useful ... sigh.
Exactly. That is why the majority of players don't follow the rules for Incorporeal exactly as they are currently printed. Because it doesn't make sense that you can hit a phantom just fine with a fist when using the Finesse trait and therefore using dexterity, but you can't hit the phantom with a fist when choosing not to use the Finesse trait and using your strength modifier on the roll.
And let's not even get into what rules trouble an Investigator would get into when trying to use Devise a Strategem and substituting their intelligence modifier on the attack roll.
It's always been clear to most of us that the rule was not referring to being immune to STR-based Strikes.
A few people have taken the super-legalistic reading that results in a pretty non-functional game.
Book of the Dead then reinforced that the intent of the rule is Strength based skill checks, not Strikes.
TLDR: Yes, a longsword works as well against a ghost as a rapier.
Strength based checks not strength based attacks.
Yes it can seem weird Dexterity but not Strength. You can think of it as a timing and placement issue more like a precision strike.
Repeated 4 times in the rules with different wordings. Including in the newer Dark Archive. It is not a copy and paste error.
Check is a rules chapter heading. It is the central rules mechanic of this game. Remember all the fuss Paizo had pulling up everyone over attack and attack roll? This is exactly the sort of distinction that is valid.
I sorry but you are just in denial. This is not an obscure or legalistic reading of the rules.
This is a self inflicted rules problem from Paizo. Probably caused by different staff members not quite understanding the details. Yes you need to play it as strength based skill checks if you let PCs have Incorporeal character options.
Wrong thread.
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I sorry but you are just in denial. This is not an obscure or legalistic reading of the rules.
It's not that we don't agree with what RAW is.
We are just following your advice here.
It's RAW, it's stupid, ignore it - everyone else does.
Which is what RAW tells you to do when you run into something like this.
If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.
Because that is very good and accurate advice.
Cool. I just object to the reading being called super-legalistic. The terms are well defined.
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Honestly, I can't even fathom the idea of people coming to the conclusion that attacks using STR don't work while DEX-based ones do. That's really strange, because there are several rules in the system that basically separate checks and attack rolls. And RAI is pretty clear here as well.
Example:
Enfeebled
Source Core Rulebook pg. 619 4.0
You're physically weakened. Enfeebled always includes a value. When you are enfeebled, you take a status penalty equal to the condition value to Strength-based rolls and DCs, including Strength-based melee attack rolls, Strength-based damage rolls, and Athletics checks.
It specifically calls out STR-based melee attack rolls.
Cut and dry.
I've never even thought to run it in this fashion. I run it as str-based skill checks. I have an idea that don't see an incorporeal creature being tripped or grappled or what not. Would have been easier to make incorporeal immune to a lot of things than use str-based checks in my opinion.