In 1e a later Option in lieue of the composite blasts wie had the blue Flame blast (hello azula) which outright ignores für resistance
I would expect something to a similar effect here
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I wouldn't so much expect to completely ignore fire resistance in this edition, but maybe half your damage goes through fire resistance or something like that.
It's also worth noting that I feel like there are much less fire immune and even resistant creatures than there used to be, or maybe just the the resistance numbers are lower.
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One of the junction abilities the fire kineticist gets is the ability to give weakness to fire to enemies within 10'.
But generally PF2 has intentionally made weakness more common than resistance or immunity. Most of the fire immune creatures are that way because of thematics (e.g. "they are fire elementals" or "they are devils.")
One of the junction abilities the fire kineticist gets is the ability to give weakness to fire to enemies within 10'.
But generally PF2 has intentionally made weakness more common than resistance or immunity. Most of the fire immune creatures are that way because of thematics (e.g. "they are fire elementals" or "they are devils.")
I'm sure it's just coincidence that fire resists and immunes outnumber fire weakness more than 2.5:1. Or 2.2:1 for cold. Or the way worse ratios for every other damage type.
Joking aside, resistance and immunity is far and away more common than weakness except for good/holy and cold iron.
Getting to hit a weakness is an "icing" for me, but being gimped out of a fight due to resist/immune is a much bigger deal especially when there's more of that. Were they *really* that unable to think of *any* alternate damage type for fire? Are they way overvaluing that more creatures have fire weakness while ignoring how many are fire immune and resist?
I want to be hopeful they thought of something, especially because they said they didn't want to make going multiple elements mandatory, but given the track record for fire builds in like every ttrpg I'm worried. They better not make it a choice tax (aka you have a choice of feats or something, but you basically are locked into taking a specific one because its way too vital, thus removing choice) like how flames and Tempest oracle has to take the deity spells feat to have more than a pittance of spells that actually interact with their mystery.
Worst case scenario, I have to try to pitch an alternate damage type for fire to my GMs to make it on par with other elements. :/
By the way I actually did collect stats on elemental stuff a few weeks ago.
Excluding creatures that are Rare or Unique, as well as Incorporeals:
**Poison:**
55 Resist
368 Immune (undead and constructs go brrr)
0 Weak
**Fire:**
87 Resist
84 Immune
97 Weak
**Cold:**
67 Resist
54 Immune
44 Weak
**Electricity:**
53 Resist
38 Immune
19 Weak
**Acid:**
25 Resist
42 Immune
1 Weak
**Sonic:**
17 Resist
5 Immune
5 Weak
...66 sonic resist? Did you filter out intangible enemies (the "resist all except ghost touch, double non-magical" ones)?
Nope! Totally forgot! It would be 17 results if I also exclude incorporeal. Updated the stats to exclude the incorporeal numbers from each resistance.
Incorporeal's Resist All would apply to all of the energy damage types equally. No need to single out Sonic.
Getting to hit a weakness is an "icing" for me, but being gimped out of a fight due to resist/immune is a much bigger deal especially when there's more of that. Were they *really* that unable to think of *any* alternate damage type for fire? Are they way overvaluing that more creatures have fire weakness while ignoring how many are fire immune and resist?
I want to be hopeful they thought of something, especially because they said they didn't want to make going multiple elements mandatory, but given the track record for fire builds in like every ttrpg I'm worried. They better not make it a choice tax (aka you have a choice of feats or something, but you basically are locked into taking a specific one because its way too vital, thus removing choice) like how flames and Tempest oracle has to take the deity spells feat to have more than a pittance of spells that actually interact with their mystery.
Worst case scenario, I have to try to pitch an alternate damage type for fire to my GMs to make it on par with other elements. :/
By the way I actually did collect stats on elemental stuff a few weeks ago.
Excluding creatures that are Rare or Unique, as well as Incorporeals:
**Poison:**
55 Resist
368 Immune (undead and constructs go brrr)
0 Weak**Fire:**
87 Resist
84 Immune
97 Weak**Cold:**
67 Resist
54 Immune
44 Weak**Electricity:**
53 Resist
38 Immune
19 Weak**Acid:**
25 Resist
42 Immune
1 Weak**Sonic:**
17 Resist
5 Immune
5 Weak
Strange. These numbers are smaller than All Easytool Monsters sheet.
But in fact the most immunity and resistance in game are poison.The second is mental.
The fire is the third more common immunity/resistance.
But for other side fire is also third more common weakness just bellow Good damage and Cold Iron.
There is! It's because you took the rare and incorporeal creatures. Why?
1. When I initially took the stats, the person who wanted the stats told me to exclude rare and unique. I did not want to run all of the numbers again when I could just use what I already had and it gave a good idea anyway of the differences between the common elemental damage types.
2. See 5 posts above. iirc, the elemental blasts while not inherently a spell, is counted as a magical thingy for things that call for it, such as incorporeal or golems. Hence, excluding it made sense.
Regardless, I believe the point is there. Fire is quite heavily resisted and immuned (obviously not as much as poison), yet they chose to give fire kineticists no alternate damage type. At best it's going to be a choice/feat tax with no thought of how lame that is ala flames/tempest oracles. At worst they said "lol get rekt pure fire concepts, you better take another element despite what we said".
I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong, but it really tempered my expectations back down to what every other system I've played has done to the concept and remember I was silly for getting excited that they claimed that doing multiple elements isn't mandatory thinking that a pure fire build would finally have a good shot. Which is probably for the best. Naari are probably going to be inefficient combo'd with fire kineticist too since they probably wouldn't have considered how their fire resistance will be wasted despite it being thematically obvious to pair.
Are golems confirmed to keep their weird immunities, anyway?
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It's seems extremely unlikely to me golem antimagic survives the remaster.
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I do hope that extract element can make immunities resistances instead, even on things that don't share your elements trait. But given that most blasts have two damage types and the expand element feat (or whatever it's going to be called) will give more damage types and how easy it is to expand to a new element, I'm a lot less worried than I was before.
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It has been a while, but the extract element action was super effective against creatures with immunities, but only if they had the element trait. Maybe any creature with elemental damage immunity should have the corresponding trait?
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It has been a while, but the extract element action was super effective against creatures with immunities, but only if they had the element trait. Maybe any creature with elemental damage immunity should have the corresponding trait?
Or just make Extract element work against any creature with immunity.
It has been a while, but the extract element action was super effective against creatures with immunities, but only if they had the element trait. Maybe any creature with elemental damage immunity should have the corresponding trait?Or just make Extract element work against any creature with immunity.
While this is very much "thematics over enjoyable gameplay for everyone" of me, I don't think that you should be able to extract fire from a devil. Their immunity to fire isn't because they're made of fire or somehow elementally aligned with fire.
Do I want mono-fire against a devil to automatically be The Human Torch vs. Asbestos Man? Not really, no. But I do think the solution belongs in a different category than the solution to "a fire Kineticist should absolutely pose a major threat to a fire elemental".
Right now, my homebrew if Paizo somehow did nothing at all about this would be allowing a first level feat to expand fire's blast options to include non-sanctified spirit damage.
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Why would a devil be immune to fire though without some aspect of fire as an element being a part of who they are? They definitely are not just the opposite of fire, so much so that it couldn't effect them. I mean, maybe some devils should not be immune to fire if their part of hell is not a place infused with supernatural fire?
It is probably too late if it isn't already the case, but I think the difference between resistance and immunity really should be whether the energy type is just intrinsic to who you are, or just something that can barely effect you.
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It is probably too late if it isn't already the case, but I think the difference between resistance and immunity really should be whether the energy type is just intrinsic to who you are, or just something that can barely effect you.
One of the reasons the list of resistances and immunities was cut down in 2e was because of a design philosophy like that. No more random resistances without reason, immunities reserved for creatures that are in some way tied fundamentally to fire. The reason why devils retained their immunity, if I understand correctly, is the narrative that all devils go through the process of being purged in the hottest fires of hell until they are hardened against pain and heat. Only those souls that survive this process become devils. I believe the idea is that they aren't just resistant to fire, but that the fire of hell fundamentally burned away any part of their essence that could be.
Could this be an argument for giving devils the fire trait? It's possible. That's just my understanding for why devils have this unique fire immunity despite not already being creatures of fire themselves.
I do hope that extract element can make immunities resistances instead, even on things that don't share your elements trait. But given that most blasts have two damage types and the expand element feat (or whatever it's going to be called) will give more damage types and how easy it is to expand to a new element, I'm a lot less worried than I was before.
That's the thing, you shouldn't be forced to expand to a new element. Fire loses out on having two damage types like the others, and they said they were trying to make single element feel good and not make multiple mandatory. That's the issue. If it's a mandatory feat tax that's super lame. That's what I'm worried about when the main thing I was looking forward to was a mono fire build that didn't get instantly walled. I want to have hope but I've also seen what every other ttrpg I've played does to mono element builds.
I do hope that extract element can make immunities resistances instead, even on things that don't share your elements trait. But given that most blasts have two damage types and the expand element feat (or whatever it's going to be called) will give more damage types and how easy it is to expand to a new element, I'm a lot less worried than I was before.That's the thing, you shouldn't be forced to expand to a new element. Fire loses out on having two damage types like the others, and they said they were trying to make single element feel good and not make multiple mandatory. That's the issue. If it's a mandatory feat tax that's super lame. That's what I'm worried about when the main thing I was looking forward to was a mono fire build that didn't get instantly walled. I want to have hope but I've also seen what every other ttrpg I've played does to mono element builds.
I think Gaulin was referring to the feat which gives your (single) element additional damage types. Or at least I was under the impression that such a feat would continue to exist. I confess I'm not certain what damage types are missing from all elements (discovering elec and cold comes with the basic package) aside from maybe rounding out the physical damage types not already possessed for each element and then something for fire.
I think Gaulin was referring to the feat which gives your (single) element additional damage types. Or at least I was under the impression that such a feat would continue to exist. I confess I'm not certain what damage types are missing from all elements (discovering elec and cold comes with the basic package) aside from maybe rounding out the physical damage types not already possessed for each element and then something for fire.I do hope that extract element can make immunities resistances instead, even on things that don't share your elements trait. But given that most blasts have two damage types and the expand element feat (or whatever it's going to be called) will give more damage types and how easy it is to expand to a new element, I'm a lot less worried than I was before.That's the thing, you shouldn't be forced to expand to a new element. Fire loses out on having two damage types like the others, and they said they were trying to make single element feel good and not make multiple mandatory. That's the issue. If it's a mandatory feat tax that's super lame. That's what I'm worried about when the main thing I was looking forward to was a mono fire build that didn't get instantly walled. I want to have hope but I've also seen what every other ttrpg I've played does to mono element builds.
We know that Wood can get poison damage with it.
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There's a first level feat that lets fire deal cold damage by sucking heat out of things. Haven't spotted anything else on this front yet, but there aren't many creatures with immunity to both fire and cold. (There's the ice devil which won't survive the remaster. Not sure what else.)
Called it that it would be a choice tax. Fire gets the conscious decision to only have 1 damage type and then they have to choose a feat or an impulse for the *privilege* of having another damage type. Why didn't they just give fire another damage type from the beginning?
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From the Rage of Elements AMA thread :
What do kineticists dedicated to fire specialization have to mitigate fire resistance and immunity?Extract Element is an action to remove resistance or change resistance to immunity unless they crit succeed a save against it.
The 4th level aura stance can do fire or cold damage.
A 1st level feat adds cold to the damage type your blast can do.
A 1st level feat allows your blast to do your choice of B/P/S instead of fire.
Your big AOE fire impulses will suffer against groups (except for the cold stance aura) but for single target you have some options. A poor multi target option is cold blast with the Chain Blast feat.
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Called it that it would be a choice tax. Fire gets the conscious decision to only have 1 damage type and then they have to choose a feat or an impulse for the *privilege* of having another damage type. Why didn't they just give fire another damage type from the beginning?
They actually have a bunch of ways to deal different damage types, and I sort of think Weapon Infusion (which lets any blast deal any physical) is going to become a default feat for any damage focused kineticist because it also lets you add weapon traits, range, and extra damage from your strength mod between the thrown and propulsive option. But fire gets the most because all the other elements have one or two of those physical damage types available by default.
Fire has by FAR the best coverage available with feat investment, so I'd probably go Natural Ambition and snag both Weapon Infusion and Versatile instead of bothering with Burn It. Fire and cold not only gives you two options for bypassing physical resistance but the two most common elemental weaknesses. The dichotomy between the two energy types also means you will absolutely wreck things when you extract element because you can penalize their AC and saves while also hitting their weakness. You basically wind up with the five ideal damage types.
So it doesn't really feel like a tax to me so much as an investment you can make to create the best damage dealing kineticist in the game. If the feats just put fire on equal footing with the others, it might be a problem. But I honestly think it stands above them for damage potential, especially when you factor in upgrading your impulse damage dice, inflicting weakness, and persistent damage.
Unless devils lose their fire Immunity or gain the fire trait extract element isn't perfect.
Depends on whether or not you can double up on the ability.
Turning immunity to resistance is something, but not necessarily better than just using a different damage type. However, that gap becomes much smaller if you can reduce immunity to resistance, and then also further reduce that resistance per normal resistant creatures.
Unless devils lose their fire Immunity or gain the fire trait extract element isn't perfect.Depends on whether or not you can double up on the ability.
Turning immunity to resistance is something, but not necessarily better than just using a different damage type. However, that gap becomes much smaller if you can reduce immunity to resistance, and then also further reduce that resistance per normal resistant creatures.
You specifically can't Extract on a creature that you've already Extracted, though other means of ignoring resistance would probably work.
The ability also only works on creatures with a corresponding trait or physical makeup. You can't Extract at all unless a creature has an elemental trait or makeup that matches an element you have access to.
You also lose Extract if you use an Overflow impulse.
The resistance that replaces immunity is equal to their level. Then you have them in your half level weakness aura, so that’s effectively chipped down if you can overcome the resistance at all.
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Unless devils lose their fire Immunity or gain the fire trait extract element isn't perfect.
Luckily, the pyrokineticist doesn't need to use extract element on them, and can just deal cold or physical damage instead. Unless the devil also resists cold you'll be better off than a martial without a silver weapon, and if it does you're basically just back to physical resistance like the martials.