I have a player who has maxxed out the save DC for Icy Prison as high as she can get it. She spams it on every encounter. But. . . the save DC is so high that the target usually fails and the Strength DC to bust out is too high for most creatures. It effectively shuts down most fights within a few rounds. Other players feel it makes them irrelevant. Any suggestions on how to handle it?
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The first and simplest suggestion is to talk to the player:
"Hey, that's awesome, but the other player's aren't enjoying the game when they don't feel relevant. Why don't you try other strategies that aren't as effective - maybe even silly strategies - and keep the icy prison in reserve? That way everyone can have fun and you can be the hero when the other PCs are crying out for help."
You could also apply the same strategy to him, ice prison to the one who cast ice prison, in this way other players will have the opportunity to enjoy the game and the player will see your indirect to control himself, you could also cast him hold person, confusion, fear, any spell that neutralize him so he will see that there are more spell that just 1 that can kill or disables the target and don't let him play. You could also apply the counter spell and improved counter spell so that that spell never apply
The first and simplest suggestion is to talk to the player:
+1 on this. You can try all sorts of tricks or strategies to counter it, but the absolute best way to handle it is to raise your concerns with this player that it's disruptive to the game and work with them to fix it. It's very easy to trivialize the parts of the game that your teammates find fun, and if you don't address that this is the issue, you're just going to come across it again in another shape or form. It might not be Icy prison next time, but a +99 stealth or an infinite money generator instead.
You're the GM, your bad guys can pass any save you want them to
Icy prison is good, but if they have friends, they could crush the ice pretty quick. It only has 3 hitpoints per caster level. Most creatures can one round that kind of damage.
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I have a player who has maxxed out the save DC for Icy Prison as high as she can get it. She spams it on every encounter. But. . . the save DC is so high that the target usually fails and the Strength DC to bust out is too high for most creatures. It effectively shuts down most fights within a few rounds. Other players feel it makes them irrelevant. Any suggestions on how to handle it?
The first step would be to speak with the player.
If that doesn't work:
Spell resistance works against Icy Prison. As the PC is at least 9th level, creatures with SR should be relatively common.
It is a targeted spell, so Spell Turning works, too.
Start encounters at a range, and have the opponent bring friends to break the ice, as Melkiador suggested.
Have groups of opponents instead of a single big guy, and more than one encounter in a day. There is a limit on how many 5th level spells he can spam in a day.
Use decoys: illusions, low-level opponents dressed as the BEEG, low level monsters that resemble more dangerous monsters,
Creatures that deal fire damage when they hit (like fire elementals with the Burn damage) should melt the ice rapidly.
Freedom of Movement is an autosave against that spell, as Icy Prison is a spell that impedes movement.
One trick pony can be defeated by tactics that beat the trick. As the PC use that tactic in every encounter, his opponents have the possibility to adapt.
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You're the GM, your bad guys can pass any save you want them to
When a GM resorts to that type of behavior as a way of countering the players, the campaign might as well be over. This is about the same thing as declaring rocks falls players die. I can see using this on very rare occasions to advance the plot, but using it as a standard tactic is the epitome of a bad GM.
Don’t forget that Icy Prison has to overcome spell resistance. If the caster cannot overcome the spell resistance of the target it does not need to make the save, it ignores the spell completely. By the time a player is casting 5th level spells spell resistance should be showing up fairly often.
Another thing that can help dealing with this is if the target has a way to deal damage to anything that touches it. Fire Shield would deal its damage every round. Other things with similar effects would also work.
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Yeah, 'talk to the player' is the best solution: This player found an 'I win' button and needs to be convinced that 'winning' isn't really the goal of the game.
Considering anything lucky enough to actually make its save is still probably paralyzed for 1 round and would probably suffer a coup-de-grace before it recovered, I realized my build was just too successful and only used this spell in emergencies (such as when one of the four PCs was petrified in the first round of combat) or when the GM didn't really want to run that particular fight (Oracle spends a spell slot, each of the melee spends a Mythic Point to get an extra move action, and we'll just assume the demons don't make their DC100+ Fort Saves and move on to the next encounter).
You're the GM, your bad guys can pass any save you want them toWhen a GM resorts to that type of behavior as a way of countering the players, the campaign might as well be over. This is about the same thing as declaring rocks falls players die. I can see using this on very rare occasions to advance the plot, but using it as a standard tactic is the epitome of a bad GM.
When dealing with power gamers, WAAC players, or ones who spam OP type abilities, If talking to them doesn't work, then the thing to do is cheat. As a GM you are trying to tell a cooperative story along with your players. If one of them wants to disrupt the game/story in this manner, then it must be brought into check. Once the player understands that he "can't win them all", the story will be more enjoyable for everyone.
If talking to them doesn't work, then the thing to do is cheat. As a GM you are trying to tell a cooperative story along with your players. If one of them wants to disrupt the game/story in this manner, then it must be brought into check. Once the player understands that he "can't win them all", the story will be more enjoyable for everyone.
Why bother continuing with a player after they've made it clear that they're only interested in disruptive play? Like, you can just... give 'em the boot and find a player who isn't insufferable. Trying to bring them in line is just going to be miserable for everyone involved.
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Meeting brute force with brute force shows a lack of imagination and creativity. Any GM has a huge number of tricks they can use to undercut any player without having to resort to rock falls character dies. AS a GM I have access to a whole lot more options than any player. Even the most obnoxiously over optimized character has only limited number of tricks they can pull. For the most part they are going to have a single class to work with. Multiclassing generally weakens a character, so most power gamers avoid doing so. As a GM I have all classes, and races plus all the monsters in the game to use as I see fit.
When either the GM or the players get into an adversarial frame of mind the game suffers. It is worse when the GM does this because they have all the power. It is too easy for the GM to abuse that power and something a good GM is constantly on guard against. If I have a player that is ruining the game for the rest of the group and will not moderate the problem behavior, I will remove him from the game. I am not going to stoop to his level by cheating because it sets a bad example. I don’t ask anything of my players I am not willing to do myself, and I would not put up with a player cheating.
Another way to prevent this type of thing is to vary the challenges. If the only challenge a GM gives the group is overcoming their opponents in combat, then don’t be upset when the players become very good at beating their opponents. If you give them other challenges that cannot be overcome with straight out normal combat, they will have to spend resources overcoming those. Tactics designed to win at normal combat will not work in those situations. Every Charm Person Mass, Passwall, Teleport or Wall of Stone the character casts is one less Icy Prison they can spam.
Honestly, the best advice is appropriate regardless of this character. Give more encounters per day and more enemies per encounter. The game isn't designed to be encountering a few single monsters per day.
If talking to them doesn't work, then the thing to do is cheat. As a GM you are trying to tell a cooperative story along with your players. If one of them wants to disrupt the game/story in this manner, then it must be brought into check. Once the player understands that he "can't win them all", the story will be more enjoyable for everyone.Why bother continuing with a player after they've made it clear that they're only interested in disruptive play? Like, you can just... give 'em the boot and find a player who isn't insufferable. Trying to bring them in line is just going to be miserable for everyone involved.
yes, giving them the boot is the next step.
It all depends on the set up of your game. My group plays Adventure paths, we are also all adults with full time jobs. we don't have time for rewriting encounters more than just adding a few mooks, bumping hit points, or adding a few templates. We don't have the luxury of varying the encounters or putting forth things that the "One trick pony" won't just power over.
A simple solution that still makes the game fun (after talking to them doesn't work), is to just let his trick be less successful behind the scenes. This is done by having the bad guy pass saves he normally wouldn't (Oh look at that, I rolled another natural 20, my dice are on fire), or have abilities that aren't always written down (oh yeah, he cast "Spell resistance" before combat, even though it's not written in the AP)
This is no different than building encounters ahead of time to counter character abilities, it's simply done on the fly as needed.
I have a player who has maxxed out the save DC for Icy Prison as high as she can get it. She spams it on every encounter. But. . . the save DC is so high that the target usually fails and the Strength DC to bust out is too high for most creatures. It effectively shuts down most fights within a few rounds. Other players feel it makes them irrelevant. Any suggestions on how to handle it?
It doesn’t sound to me like you have a problem player. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. So talking to the player will potentially replace one problem with another one. To make the rest of the group happy you make the Icy Prison player unhappy.
The actual problem is that the other players feel “irrelevant”. So my advice is to design encounters where everyone can be part of the action. My preferred method is to run encounters with about a dozen mid-level monsters. The Icy Prison player can still spam to their hearts content, but there will still be lots of challenging monsters left for everyone else.
In addition introduce more non-combat challenges that rely on skills and role-playing: send the PCs on a diplomatic mission where they have to garner support from each of the nobles in a foreign kingdom. Some players like puzzles and some like exploration, so try to include aspects of that as well.
I have been in campaigns where the GM is using an adventure path and does not properly prepare. In all honesty these campaigns tend to be somewhat boring. Often the GM spends a large amount of game time reading the adventure path while the group sits around talking about other stuff. Asking a question or doing something unexpected often results in the game coming to a halt as he tries to figure out what to do. Even in combat the game often runs longer because the GM is not familiar with the abilities of the opponents. If they have a spell or magic item the GM is not familiar with the game grinds to a halt or the ability does not work like it is supposed to. If you are doing a beer and pretzel game where the object is just to get together with friends and hang out I can see that being ok, but a lot of people want more out of the game.
If you have time to prepare for the game so it does not bog down, you should have time to modify the encounters.
If you have time to prepare for the game so it does not bog down, you should have time to modify the encounters.
Humbly disagree, at least to the extent needed to counter these kinds of shenanigans, or to customize so each player gets his limelight like mentioned above.
but, YMMV
There are books of adventure paths that are really bad about this. Book 2 of War for the Crown is really bad about having one big fight against a single monster every adventuring day. But in my experience, most of the books for level 9+ characters feature more battles against large groups of enemies.
Enemies appropriate for a party of 9+ level characters should rarely have much issue with this spell.
Enemies appropriate for a party of 9+ level characters should rarely have much issue with this spell.Rarely? SR is the number one deterrent for this spell
Not really. Numbers is the number one deterrent for this spell. Especially, if those numbers are intelligent enough to just attack the ice and free their friend.
If the character is focused on boosting the DC of the save chances are they don’t have a lot of resources boosting other things. At 10th level a character will have 5 feats (6 if human), they may have a bonus feat or two from their class. If I were building to focus on this spell I would go for a boreal sorcerer with spell focus, greater spell focus, elemental focus and greater elemental focus. That would give me a +5 to the DC for the save. That also uses up 4 of my 6 feats. The bloodline feats for the boreal are not going to be that useful, but the +1 DC to cold spells makes up for it. If I take spell penetration and greater spell penetration all my feats are used up.
The character probably has a +2 on initiative and a concentration check of +16. His chance of winning going first is not that great. He has only a 60% of casting the spell defensively. The character should have a reputation of being incredibly dangerous so having the opponents target him first is not unreasonable. Just have a bunch of minions swarm him and surround him. Now if he casts Icy Prison, he has to make a 9 or better concentration roll or get hit with multiple AoO. Even if he does make the concentration roll Icy Prison is a ranged attack. If the character is completely surrounded, he will be facing between 6 – 12 AoO. He will also be flanked and probably does not have an extremely high AC.
If the other players are really that irritated, they can simply not get in the way. They don’t need to be obvious about it. The martial classes can simply move up and not worry about protecting the character. Other casters can step away to avoid the AoO from the opponents surrounding the character.
Trying to go against someone’s strong point is not the best idea. Go for their weakness. A one trick pony is exactly that one trick.
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Now if he casts Icy Prison, he has to make a 9 or better concentration roll or get hit with multiple AoO.
If a caster fails casting defensively he doesn't provoke an AoO, instead, he fails in casting the spell.
Casting Defensively: If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + double the level of the spell you’re casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.
Even if he does make the concentration roll Icy Prison is a ranged attack. If the character is completely surrounded, he will be facing between 6 – 12 AoO. He will also be flanked and probably does not have an extremely high AC.
Icy prison isn't a ranged attack, it is a targeted spell. Targeting someone with a spell doesn't provoke. You need to use a spell that makes a ranged attack (i.e. a ray or a ranged touch attack).
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Now if he casts Icy Prison, he has to make a 9 or better concentration roll or get hit with multiple AoO.
If a caster fails casting defensively he doesn't provoke an AoO, instead, he fails in casting the spell.
Casting Defensively: If you want to cast a spell without provoking any attacks of opportunity, you must make a concentration check (DC 15 + double the level of the spell you’re casting) to succeed. You lose the spell if you fail.
I'm reading the original post as 'he has to choose to either cast defensively (requiring a decent concentration check to avoid losing the spell) - or - risk the AoOs provoked by non-defensive casting.'
It is a bit unclear, though...|
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A somewhat relevant FAQ:
Witch, Ice Tomb Hex: What is the range of this hex? Can it affect objects? Does the target need to drink? Can it affect a cold-immune creature? If the target succeeds at its save, is it still imprisoned? How long does it last?
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The general assumption for effects is if the creature negates the damage from the effect, the creature isn't subject to additional effects from that attack (such as DR negating the damage from a poisoned weapon, which means the creature isn't subject to the poison). Therefore, a cold-immune creature takes no damage from the hex and can't be imprisoned by it.
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Not RAW, only something worth considering:
With Icy Prison the damage is a secondary effect, but being immune to cold damage should lessen the effect of the spell. You can be pinned by being encased in ice, but you aren't helpless.
Helpless is an extremely powerful negative condition:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy.
RAW the helpless character can't do anything, including trying to break the ice, and I really dislike when the authors use the term to indicate something different.
Maybe the check to break it is for entangled characters only, or for free people helping the imprisoned character, but the spell doesn't explain that.This kind of half-baked description is something that grates on my rule lawyer soul.
Just put some monster with cold immunity or cast protection from energy (cold) and the problem whit that spell is solved against him
Just put some monster with cold immunity or cast protection from energy (cold) and the problem whit that spell is solved against him
I think that would only protect against the persistent cold damage, not the imprisoning/entangling effect.
Cold immunity would apply to the imprisoning or entangling. Resistance would just let them thaw out with as much health as they had when it was cast.
I’m not a fan of such targeted meta options though.
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I’m not a fan of such targeted meta options though.
The character should be well renowned for his tactic. It is normal that opponents that could do it will take countermeasures.
I would prefer using numbers, but Pathfinder isn't user-friendly for the GM when you use groups of opponents.
I am trying to rewrite the troop template to make it more balanced. Currently, it undervalues the CR of the troop by a large margin and makes too many spells useless. Confusion on a 10 men troop should work.
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I’m not a fan of such targeted meta options though.The character should be well renowned for his tactic. It is normal that opponents that could do it will take countermeasures.
I would prefer using numbers, but Pathfinder isn't user-friendly for the GM when you use groups of opponents.
I am trying to rewrite the troop template to make it more balanced. Currently, it undervalues the CR of the troop by a large margin and makes too many spells useless. Confusion on a 10 men troop should work.
the wouldnt be renowned for the tactic if they killed everyone who has seen them do it...
Cold immunity would apply to the imprisoning or entangling.
Huh. That doesn't make much sense to me, but you're right.
Is the imprisoning or entangling the primary effect or the secondary effect?
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on level, save type, or school), and other effects. A creature does not suffer any secondary effects that would normally be triggered by an effect it is immune to.
You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level. If the creature fails its save, it is helpless, but can still breathe (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition but can otherwise act normally. Whether or not the target saves, it takes 1 point of cold damage per caster level each round it is helpless or entangled in the ice. The ice has hardness 0 and 3 hit points per inch of thickness; if broken, the creature is freed. A creature can break the ice as a full-round action with a successful Strength check (DC 15 + your caster level).
From the description of the spell, it seems like the imprisoning or entangling is the primary effect. The cold damage is the secondary effect, not the imprisoning or entangling.
I think you are wrong if you read the spell description it say You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level (this is the primary effects) all other effects are secondary
I think you are wrong if you read the spell description it say You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level (this is the primary effects) all other effects are secondary
That is what I said.
Yeah you are right, but only the imprison apply not the entangled since this become a secondary effects
The imprison and entangle are the same effect. The entangle is a lesser effect but is still the primary effect. A primary effect is the first effect. This is the equivalent of saving for half damage. Not that it really matters though because as far as I know no creature has stated immunity to the helpless or entangled condition. Immunity to cold is irrelevant because it is never the primary effect. The spell itself states that a target only takes the cold damage when they are helpless or entangled. Anything preventing those conditions negates the cold damage.
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on level, save type, or school)
Ice prison is a evocation (cold) the immunity negates all effects in her including the entangled effect.
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A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on level, save type, or school)
Ice prison is a evocation (cold) the immunity negates all effects in her including the entangled effect.
The same way a creature immune to acid can be drown in a pool of it, even if it doesn't take damage, a physical object made of ice will prevent someone from moving threw it. Immune to ice or not.
Unless that same immunity would cause you to plummet to the bottom of a frozen lake, completely ignoring the ice when you step foot on it| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The description of immunity states that a creature does not suffer secondary effects that trigger by an effect they are immune to. It does not state that they are immune to all effects. The word can indicates that this is not always the case. In the case of Icy Prison the helpless or entangled condition is the primary effect, the damage is the secondary effect. Being immune to cold does not allow you to walk through a wall of ice, that requires a different ability. Icy Prison can still prevent a creature with cold immunity from moving or hinder them if they make their save.
Ok but you are to focus in the damage and the save if you read carefully the immunity it say " Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on level, save type, or school" you can hold the target whit the "You trap the target in solid ice 1 inch thick per caster level" but all other effects is negated by the immunity and he doesn't require to make a savings throw against it because he is immune, and even whit this i still be in consideration of significant, example some can say ice prison look like a cage and other can say that you are covered all your body in ice
As for what you guys said
"Unless that same immunity would cause you to plummet to the bottom of a frozen lake, completely ignoring the ice when you step foot on it"
"Being immune to cold does not allow you to walk through a wall of ice"
This have nothing to do with the immunity since it not affecting directly
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Immunity
A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.Format: Immune acid, fire, paralysis; Location: Defensive Abilities.
I see what you're inferring about condition immunity, but that's where we look at the example
Paralysis immunity is separate from cold immunity
Cold immunity isn't condition immunity
2 independent things. The damage is cold based, the paralyzed part isn't.
A cold immune creature is still slowed by waist high snow, it just won't freeze to death
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Immunity only protects against things that are directly related to the immunity. It does not protect against things that are an indirect effect. If a cold spell was to create a paralysis effect because it is so cold that it numbs the creature immunity to cold would prevent that. That is not what Icy Prison is doing. Icy Prison is creating a block of ice around the character that physically prevents them from moving. If they make their saving throw instead of being trapped in the ice it merely slows them down (entangles them in game terms).
Let’s say there is a fire spell that does damage to everything in the area including physical objects. A character is standing on a wooden platform over a deep pit. The caster casts the fire spell in question and does enough damage to the wooden platform to destroy it. Does the fire immune creature fall? The destruction of the wooden platform is a secondary effect caused by the fire spell. If we go under the idea that a character that has immunity to fire is immune to any effect caused by fire the character would not fall into the pit. The fires spell is the indirect reason the platform was damaged, but that does not prevent the character standing on it from falling into the pit.
Immunity to cold protects vs the damage of the Icy Prison, but it offers no protection vs becoming helpless or entangled. Those are caused by the fact the ice physically prevents the affected creature from moving or hampers their movement if they make their save.
So you are saying that a white dragon, frost giant, ice troll, Dr frost and superman are always entangled if they received a ice prison and don't pass the the savings throw